Building Better Developers

This is Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Noor podcast. We will accomplish our goals through sharing experience, improving tech skills, increasing business knowledge, and embracing life. Let's dive into the next episode. Well, hello and welcome back. We are doing this sort of a summary overview kind of episode this time. We've had five, a five part series that we've just wrapped up of an interview with Tim Stratton. The last part we talked and I'd say touched on because there's, there is a lot of time that can be spent talking about a mentor relationship and the value and how do you get value out of it. But he made some specific statements and obviously every, every relationship is unique, whether it's of any kind, because it is that combination of person A and person B that are part of that relationship. And of course, if you add a person C and a person D, that becomes unique with that combination of experiences and personalities and things of that nature. So all of this is going to be, this is based off of specific experience, but there's some, I think a lot of generalizations we can pull out as well to help us. Now, the first thing I want to say is that it's probably obvious that in the conversation, particularly as we get into talking about the mentor piece, that Tim is a specifically kind and gracious person. He's one of those people that just is very thankful and very vocal about being thankful for those that have have spent time with him and poured anything into him. And that sort of brings us to our first key point. I think it's hard to, it would be hard to miss the fact that he has been very appreciative of those that have have poured into him of those relationships. And he has looked for ways to continue that, to nurture those relationships where he feels that he, you know, he's getting a lot out of it. He referred to it as being selfish, but I think that's maybe not be selfish as much as self-serving may not sound very good, but definitely something where you have a value that you get out of that relationship. It should be worth it for you to put something into that relationship as well. In the case of a mentor relationship, it is that you provide feedback, although a mentor a lot of times is going to give you feedback that they're going to maybe be a sounding board or help you walk through like a roadmap or plans or approaches. It's important that you also give them feedback that allows them to know that you have, that you've taken that into account. And this is, this is whether it's a lead or a coach or a mentor or however you want to look at it. And this goes even into some of the things we'll talk about in some other episodes and in the future, and touched on in the past, a employee manager type of relationship. If you have a manager that is not strictly hands off, one that is in some way a lead or a senior or something like that, that particularly if there's someone that you want to, as Timothy put, emulate, if there's something that they have done that you see as a future goal for yourself, when you are interacting with them and when you're, as you're working with them, also provide feedback. This is, this goes to very simple communication things. When you're in a meeting, one of the things that we learn as, that I've been taught and I guess people, so when I say we, I'm not sure what that we actually is. When you're in a meeting, and particularly if you consider like a consulting thing or something where instructions are being given of some sort, it is very helpful to turn those around in your own words and give that back to the person that is providing the instruction. Now one is for clarification. Make sure that you understand what they wanted to communicate so that you're on the same page. However, the other benefit when you do that is that you are showing them, proving to them through your actions that you were paying attention, that you were actively listening, that you weren't simply in the same room or on the same call. I think this is a great way to move forward regardless of where you're at in your career. You can sort of think of it as that kid in school, maybe you were that kid or kids, that were always the ones to raise their hands, to ask questions. Some people refer to them as, in a derogatory way, as sort of like a teacher's pet. Full disclosure here, that was not me. I was not that person. As I said, I've mentioned in a couple of these interviews, I think I lost out on some relationships I could have had with teachers and leaders and mentors and that in my life early on because I did not push back, I did not give that feedback back, get into that loop that allows me to let them know that I am paying attention, that I do find value in the time they're spending talking to me, but also for them to refine the message. If I miss something, if there may be something that I didn't emphasize properly or that I de-emphasized, something like that, that I didn't get it quite right, when I feed that back to them, that allows them to refine the message to make sure that I do get out of that conversation or that relationship what was intended. In any relationship, there is going to be give and take, even a mentor or mentee kind of relationship. Understand or just, I guess, just own that. If you want that relationship to grow and to thrive and to be valuable, not only to you, but also to everybody involved, because generally speaking, that is who we are. If we're just pouring into somebody, there's a point that it just becomes exhausting. But when you pour into somebody and you get that feedback, then it allows you to pour better, to understand what you are imparting to others, to get better at communicating that. But also there is that, not a haim necessarily, but there is, there's some sort of a feel good that you get when somebody returns back to you that says, hey, I took this advice and this is what I did with it. Even if it's not what you'd hoped, but the fact that they did that in itself is a little bit of a, you know, like an attaboy or a pat on the back. Another thing I wanted to highlight that I don't know necessarily came out is that in this situation in particular, and I've seen this in several other relationships that I've had with the mentor mentee, leader, leadie, however you want to call that. Several of these relationships, I found that there is an organic way that these came about. It's basically you cross paths with somebody and you find them interesting or something about them that you want to know more about, which in this case in a mentor relationship would be you want a mentor that you see what they have done or what they are doing and you say, wow, that's where I want to be. And so you talk to them about how they got there. What did they do? Because yes, your path is going to be different, but knowing that someone has gone on that path to some extent is helpful. I think about a vacation experience. If you're going to travel somewhere that you haven't been before, somebody that's traveled there before is useful. They are, you can ask them about what they did, what was their experience. And even though you may not go to the exact same places they go, you may go, you most likely will go with different people. It's a different time. There's a lot of differences that could even be considered apples to oranges kind of comparison, but it's not everything. There are things that are experiences or culture or environment or things like that, that they will pick up on that they experienced that you also will experience to some extent. And so getting the general idea of what they've done and how they got there is valuable. It helps us better plan for what may occur. And it's that whole planning thing. We're not going to be able to specifically draw out every step we do and everything that occurs. Life always gets in the way. Life always happens, regardless of what you're doing. So general directions and experiences and shared expectations are useful. Now, back to the organic side. Timothy and I just met. He ended up working for me initially when we first met. And it was one of those things you put a job application in, you're in an interview, you end up getting picked up for a job. There was not from either of us, neither of us went into the situation saying, okay, we need, we want to create this mentor relationship, mentor mentee relationship. It happened because he saw something about what I did that he liked. And in my interactions with him, I realized that he was somebody that I was, if I put time and investment into talking with him, that it would be beneficial. And it's not necessarily beneficial to me per se. It goes back to the idea, as I mentioned, of building software or building any product. You want to build something or create something or be a part of something that others get value out of or that they appreciate. If you were an artist and you did it, you were creating this painting. Yes, there is some some cathartic piece of doing the painting. There is something about that probably that you would get just simply creating the painting. But there's a lot more value if you know that other people will like that painting. If it's a painting that you do and you just throw it in a closet and nobody ever sees again or throw it in the trash and it's just gone, it's not going to have the same effect as if it ends up being on a wall that million of people get to appreciate it every day. And now that doesn't mean that there's, you know, it's either one or the other. That really applies to us in a lot of areas. We want to have, even if it's not necessarily directly a pat on the back for our work or some appreciation for our work, we want to have that hope that it will be appreciated. That's why this podcast exists, is to push some of this stuff out and to hope that some people benefit from it. And honestly, it doesn't have to be a ton. It's not something where I think for most people they say it's either I have to be world renowned for this or it's not worth doing. There's just too many things in life. I think that we're happy if a few people find benefit in it. So we don't have to go nuts with this on scale or anything like that. And the reason I bring this up is because I know that there are a lot of people that look for, there's a professional, there's an industry about mentoring. And it sort of goes into boot camps as well, but boot camps a little different because it's teaching a skill. But there are definitely mentor kinds of things out there where people say, hey, I am a mentor for hire. And if you do X, you can sign up. And I think most of them, there is some sort of an interview process so that there is a desire to at least get some sort of connection or chemistry correct for that mentor relationship. But there's also something that isn't, I don't want to be too dismissive of it or demeaning of it, but it is not as genuine, I think, to me, if you go into it as a business relationship. I think the value in these relationships come from them being organic, from them being natural, from there being something about the people involved that makes them want to, draws them to each other, that makes them want to hang out with each other, to have those conversations, to spend time, not some sort of financial agreement. If that falls out of it, so be it. It's different if you were to run into somebody that happens to be a professional mentor. You talk to them, you get to know them, and eventually you get to point where you say, hey, I want to pay you for your time that you're spending with me. That's different from, I need help, here's some money so that you will spend time with me to help me. It may seem a little bit that I'm a little bit too fine in the definition or how I'm splitting hairs maybe here, but I don't think it is. My point is that look around in your life, the people that you're already interacting with, the people that you want to continue to interact with, and use that as your core for finding a mentor. Do not just go Google search or whatever your search tool is, mentors or professional mentors, and then you can go hunt somebody down that way. It's, that itself could probably be a multi-part discussion as far as why you really are going to be better off having that personal kind of relationship as opposed to something that starts as a business relationship. It's just, if you want examples, as you can see in movies, there's this theme that shows up from time to time where it's the guy basically pays for the girl, whether it's like you can go to one of the older movies where it's like a guy hires a prostitute, ends up falling in love with her or like can't buy me love kind of movie where there's some sort of relationship that starts financially. And since it's movies, it always ends up being some true relationship or deeper relationship. But there is, and that may happen, but I don't think that's what you really ever want. I think it's better for that relationship to start in a natural sense. And if eventually, this is a business thing, I don't want to take that out, that analogy too far, but in a business sense, if your relationship starts with money, and honestly it would be anything, if you had a best friend started out with you paying them to hang out with you, at some point, even if it became natural and that there was a true friendship, there would always be that money start that would be a problem. It spoils the relationship a little bit because you always have some of that fear of, well, gosh, this wouldn't have happened if I hadn't started with this business relationship. And I say this more as a, when you're looking for a mentor, because that's where, I think because if you're on the other side, if you're the mentee, then there's always going to be that they poured into me a little bit because I paid them because there was a business relationship versus if you're a mentor, you would know if there's a point where you're like, well, I don't want, I don't feel a need or I don't want to soil this relationship with a monetary thing. And so you could walk away from that, that basis and feel fine, but the mentee, I think that may always be a little bit on the back of their mind. And this isn't to completely just say, avoid those professional relationships, but understand that there is a cost to the relationship that comes with you deciding to go pay for it versus allow it to go organically. And that in itself is probably, that's probably a life lesson that you can find out there. There is a big difference between what you go, when you take that shortcut and you say, all right, well, instead I'm going to throw money at this problem as opposed to maybe being patient and looking for a better solution. I don't want to get too deep in that, but it is something that I definitely want you to think about as you look at mentors. And if you're particularly looking for mentors, look to those around you or even if they're not in your circle, there may be people that you want to emulate that you have not met, then it may be a challenge, but see if there's some ways that you can find your way into meeting them and getting to know them outside of whatever their, I guess it would have to be their public persona is that drew you to them in the first place. And sometimes it's because that public persona and who they actually are, are not necessarily the same. And you think of any, a lot of famous people, but particularly if you think of actors and actresses, their life is based on portraying somebody or some other person or style of person. And so personally, they privately, they may be very, very different. Mentors the same way. They may have a very good, the book may look very good on the cover, but once you start getting into it, you may realize that it has blank pages. And so be patient. It's particularly when you're starting out. I think it's easy to get into this. Oh, I need a mentor. This is going to really jumpstart my career. It's going to allow me to maybe skip ahead through some things that I really don't want to wait for, or I'm just not that patient or these things that I just don't think are that beneficial, but it is. Those things are beneficial. The work that we do, the blood, sweat and tears that we put into being ourselves has its own value. And so I want that to, I want to make sure that I come back around to that in this episode is that we, this was a good example of a, I think, I think Timothy would agree. It was a very good mentor mentee relationship that came about because of the things we talked about, about somebody wanting to being, I say wanting, but being open to pouring into somebody else and somebody being there that says, Hey, this person is willing and I want to be a recipient of that. And in so doing, I'm going to make sure that I let them know it and that I give them the feedback so that we can communicate the kinds of things that need to be communicated better. Every relationship has give and take. And so go into it knowing that, that it's not going to be just some person that's a, whatever your ideal is, just steps into your life and says, here's what you need to do. And it just magically happens. That's sort of that last little bit is that there's also work involved. You need to take that. You need to act on it. You need to reflect on it. You need to bring it back and then get into that cycle. And that is where your mentor relationship is really going to be most valuable. Apologize if I got a little long and a little philosophical maybe on this, but I think this is one of those that was worthwhile because we covered, we had touched on these items, but didn't really go as deep into them in that last episode in particular. And I want to do that before we switch gears and move into our next interview and series of conversations. That being said, thank you as always for being there and for listening in the time that you have put in and no challenges this week. I'm just going to let you go, maybe ruminate a little bit on this and get out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. Thank you for listening to Building Better Developers, the Developer Noor Podcast. For more episodes like this one, you can find us on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, and other podcast venues, or visit our site at developernoor.com. Just a step forward a day is still progress, so let's keep moving forward together. There are two things I want to mention to help you get a little further along in your embracing of the content of Developer Noor. One is the book, The Source Code of Happiness. You can find links to it on our page out on the Developer Noor site. You can also find it on Amazon, search for Rob Rodhead or Source Code of Happiness. You can get it on Kindle. If you're an Amazon Prime member, you can read it free. A lot of good information there. That'll be a lot easier than trying to dig through all of our past blog posts. The other thing is our masterminds slash mentor group. We meet roughly every other week, and this is an opportunity to meet with some other people from a lot of different areas of IT. We have a presentation every time. We talk about some cool tools and features and things that we've come across, things that we've learned, things that you can use to advance your career today. Just shoot us an email at info at developernoor.com if you would like more information. Now go out there and have yourself a great one.