Building Better Developers

This is Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Noor podcast. We will accomplish our goals through sharing experience, improving tech skills, increasing business knowledge, and embracing life. Let's dive into the next episode. Hello and welcome back. We are continuing our interview, a series of multi-part interview with Sam McNeil from Song Division. We left the last episode with a bit of a cliffhanger and we're going to dive right in to resolve that cliffhanger right away and get into a really good series of portion of this interview that I think helps for those of you that don't see success and how it relates to your love of job and how even professionalism and enthusiasm all seem to flow from that core piece, that desire or that ability to do what you were essentially meant to do. I think you'll see a lot of that come out of this portion of the interview. I think I've had you wait long enough, so let's get right back to it. When things start going awry, you mentioned that if somebody else is leading it and they start to panic, it spreads panic to others. You say that, then you start to worry about it. Does that even come into play in how you handle things or is that really just more like that's just naturally you have that grace under pressure or whatever where you just focus on getting the job done when things start to fall apart or is that part of your, something that you've built in yourself so that you are, so that you visibly are not panicked? I think it comes down to I'm just at my most comfortable when I'm on a stage. I realize that sounds so arrogant and almost narcissistic, but I'm me. I feel like I am Sam McNeil when I am up on stage doing what I think I do best, which is performing, entertaining, using music to engage people and doing what Song Division does. I'm not saying, we come in and we're a very small part of a bigger event, so I'm not an event organizer and I don't take control when the event starts going wrong. If our section's running late or if the audience is expected to be there and be in conference and engaged but they're not, they're all chatting and we're going to have a bit of a struggle here to win them over. That's me at my best. Let's go. Let's make this happen. Let's save it. Let's fight for it. I don't think I fall apart. I think I just know what needs to be done and normally I'm the guy with the microphone so I can start calling those shots and this is when it's our part of the show. I am the boss and I am the one who, the buck stops with me as well. It's still a double edged sword. If it doesn't go well, it's on me. Even more gives me that inclination that I'm taking control here, I'll take control and I love it and I'm totally happy to do it and I would prefer it would be me than anyone else in the room. That's something I think I find with most leaders, even entrepreneurs in that, people that are, I guess it's that type A personality or however you want to look at it, you always have the option. It can be something that you can, effectively you can outsource something to somebody else or you can be the one that you're on the hook and you're in control of it. I think there's definitely a certain type of personality that prefers that being in control because then, like you say, it's on you if it goes completely out of control and goes over a cliff, but also that allows you the ability to, you have the ability to control it as opposed to, so you're at least driving the train as it goes over the cliffs and lets the passenger car. Exactly. Just to be clear, the other side of the coin are great leaders and obviously Annence, another cliche, I'm sure his name gets thrown around a lot, Richard Branson. He's one of the great, in my opinion, one of the great organisational leaders of my time anyway. His philosophy is he's a great leader, but he basically just puts experts in the people that are smarter than him in roles and therefore they, it allows them to do their job. I'm not saying that you should be micromanaging and telling everyone what to do, but the buck still stops with Branson as well. There comes a point where it's not about who's better at this or knows more or has the intelligence. If this fails, who's got to be ultimately responsible? I don't know enough about him, but I know that he's considered an incredible leader which would run against his philosophy, which is let people do their jobs and put very smart, experienced people in the roles that he doesn't have that experience or knowledge. There is two sides of it, but on the day when things go wrong and things aren't going to plan, I want to be the guy with the microphone and I want to steer that ship back. That's actually an excellent follow up there to that, to clarify that, is that you want to be able to steer that ship, but you also have to be able to hand things off and delegate because you can't steer the ship and be racing the sails at the same time or things like that, manning the cannons or whatever you happen, whatever else has to be done. That's actually a great lead into the idea of leading and building a team because obviously you didn't just drop down in the UK and boom, you were the one man show that did everything. You've had to be an integral part and drive the building of the team and then particularly in your case because you obviously love the culture and love the business. How has that been part of, and knowing where your strengths are that love of business? It's not necessarily what your resume or your CV was beforehand. How has that impacted you or maybe how does that set you up for as you've built out this team, maybe some things that you're looking for that you say, okay, this is somebody that is song division material? Yeah, great question. When I did first get here, it was very much one man band and obviously again had the full global support, had the support of my amazing boss. He hired out Andy Sharp and his wife, Marsha Sharp, who run the business. I wasn't just dropped here and see you later, we'll check in in a year. Lots of support but I was doing everything. I was setting up the business firstly, I was going to the networking events meeting, going to all the association events, trying to spread the word about who we were. No one really knew who we were over here. And again, I loved all of that. Once we were winning work, the musicians are the first team that we have. So like I said, they're contracted session musicians, they don't work for us full time, they're touring and recording session artists and when they're available, they come and do an event with us. So the first sort of team would have been myself and a couple of well-known, they're called music directors but in the UK they're called fixers. So you're a fixer. So for the guy, if Michael Buble is coming to town and he doesn't want to pay for his 12-piece band to have flights, visas, accommodations across the UK and Europe, he picks up a local band and these fixers know all the best musicians. So the first team was Neil Jones and Bob Knight, who are still part of the family in exactly the same roles. And they were bringing together, I would say, hey, we've won the event and here's the date, location, find out who's available, who's not touring or whatever and put the band together. And that was important because like I said, there's an energy that you need to do what Song Division does. It's not just, yeah, it's not for indie musicians who are too cool for school, firstly. You need to accept that we're writing original songs with people who work for big major banks, pharmacy unicles. And you've got to all, you know, we're trying to create a rock star experience for them and you can't be too cool for school. You've got to be outgoing and positive and accept that some people are going to be sceptical and don't want to do it and you've got to try and encourage it out of them. So there's been musicians where it hasn't worked with, but for the most part, yeah, we get the first challenge is getting them on board. And it's not just another gig. Again, they need to care about this gig and they need to believe in the values that we believe in. So that would have been the first sort of team I had and Bob and Neil, you know, I was with Bob today doing this other event and we've all become very close friends and that was lovely. You know, so nice to start building a relationship with so many ridiculous musicians here in London. You know, you can actually, sure you can imagine. It's like Nashville. It's just a melting pot of crazy musicians. And then things got, eventually got, you know, busy enough and successful enough that I was like, okay, I need some help here. I'm battling. I can't do everything. And super fortunately, I think it was my boss who suggested a friend of mine, Vivian Connica, who's still, again, still with us. And she's someone I met singing operas back in Australia. She moved over here. She'd gone on to study more music than me, classical voice, even more, got more degrees. She's been, I think she's got a degree from the Royal College of Music here in London. She went on to do a lot more work with opera, was running her own charity, providing music performances for people living with dementia. And she's, we're very close, but we're very, very different personalities. She's big on structure. She's big on process. She's big on planning. I'm the slightly more eccentric, creative Jack in the Box, has plenty of ideas, doesn't probably follow through with things as much as he should, isn't quite as organised. Working on all of this, by the way, constantly working on all these things. So yeah, we brought her in and what a game changer that was. She started making sure that production folders pre-event were completed the way they should be, whereas I might do it half 50-50 or half-arsed and know that it would be fine because I'd be on the event and I would know what's going on, which is never a good way to run a business, everyone. That whole what happens if you got hit by a bus tomorrow? Where would all the knowledge live for the event and for the business? So made my life so much easier so I could focus on what I'm good at. And again, like I've said, I love sales. So I needed a lot of the pre-event once we'd won the job. That takes a lot of time. Winning it's not that hard. Once you've won it, it's planning it and getting it together and run of shows and AV tech writers and flights and accommodation and all of that. So Viv came in and took such a huge load off me in that world and also took on some sales. We had a great year, probably, again, thanks mostly to her. We brought on another Australian who was a girl called Beck Quinn and that's fresh. She's a singer as well and she's worked with Song Division in the past as a singer, but she's been working with us full time now since the start of this year. And I think I came back to your question about the right people, the right team, the right energy. Firstly, you want people who are different personalities. I've recently done a disc accreditation so I'm really big on the idea that you wouldn't want four of me running Song Division. You need all of the personalities on behaviors. So Beck was working. Beck's one of the most amazing singers I know. She's an X-Factor finalist in the UK and in Europe. She's been singing her whole life. She was working some job that had nothing to do with music and being paid peanuts and being treated horribly and I gave her a call and I said, how's your life? She said, it sucks. And I said, well, good because I think I've got an opportunity for you. So we brought her in and again, it was just I need someone who brings positive energy, which is one of our values at Song Division. I need someone who's happy to get their hands dirty and do any job within the business and that's another one, you know, make it happen. I need someone who when you see her or speak to her, you walk away feeling better about life and Viv and her both have all those qualities in spades. So we're still a tight group. We've got me, Viv, Beck and then we use on sort of 20 to 30 of the session musicians who have all become like family. So it's a beautiful team. Apparently, I'm the leader, but it doesn't really work like that. We just all do what we're good at and there's just a beautiful cohesion and a willingness to and a want to succeed and I want to help each other. That's a very long-winded answer. Sorry, mate. That's all right. It's a good one. That actually leads to another thing I hadn't even thought to mention. When you brought in Viv and it sounds like that was really sort of a, it was like you went hunting and said, oh, yeah, this is the perfect person for that. It was one of the things you sort of, you were suggested how to, and especially with somebody that different, what, how, and you know, obviously you said you had a, you guys, she came in, you guys had a great year. How was that personally for you to make those adjustments to bring in? It's essentially sort of a partner kind of a relationship at that point is that it sounds like she was basically same things you could have been doing before. Yeah. Well, she was doing, taking over things that I was meant to be doing, but either because I was at capacity or because it wasn't my strengths, they were falling by the wayside in the business. So the organisational thing, the data entry, the making sure you see our ends up to date, making sure your production books are filled out completely. So no one gets to the airport and goes, my name's been spelled wrong on the ticket or whatever. So that was amazing. There was no sense of, oh gosh, I've got to give up some, any, any power or anything I, you know, really cherish. It was, there was none of that. And I think obviously we were, we were friends beforehand. But that, and even that hasn't, doesn't say that it hasn't been really challenging because Yeah, Viv is incredibly detail oriented and spends a lot of, puts in, pours so much of her energy and time and emotion into making things, preparing for things and making sure they run, run really well. And then, you know, on the other side of the coin, I'm, I'm running around trying to bring my energy to win more work, to have million meetings, to win a million jobs. And I would often neglect time that was required to run, to go through things that she'd spent a lot of time on creating, whether it's proposals, run of shows and that, that we, we, we, we, we're there now, but yeah, that, that was the biggest challenge. Respecting the amount of time and energy that your colleagues put into their work and appreciating it and not that I never appreciated it, but when she's asked, when Viv's asked me to look at something and I, before the event or before the day and I haven't, and that's obvious, then as you can imagine, that's really, well, firstly, it's, it's not good work, business, but it's, it's, yeah, it's quite, it can be quite hurtful, you know, it's like you, you, you don't value what all this, all the work I've done. So that's, hopefully that's a bit of a nice example of, of, of, you know, challenges we've had and, and, and, you know, I, I was very quick to, to, to, I like to think I'm fairly empathetic. I'm very good at making mistakes. I love making mistakes. It's my favourite thing in the world, but I don't often make them twice. So I've made a huge effort to, yeah, really be, do, do the work that's required of me so others can do their job. That's the main thing because I can often be doing my job and Viv can be often doing her job and Bec can be often doing her job, but always as a small business and a small little family unit, you rely on other people before you can do something, you need something from them or you need their feedback because you're, you know, so before it's, you know, a month down the track, they are like ripping apart what they've done and it's, that wouldn't have happened had you given the feedback when they asked for it or had you done what they'd asked. So that's a big learning for me, just being, giving other people what they need so they can succeed at their job. And that will wrap up part three. I hope you're taking notes along the way. There were some excellent points that were brought up. It's again, as I've said throughout this, the excitement and enthusiasm that Sam has for his job, for the organization that he works with, the people that he works with, the kind of work that he does, what that provides his customers. It's a great case, great case study of what happens when you have that, that perfect fit, that hand and glove kind of fit where someone is doing exactly what they need to be doing. And hopefully that's something that you can think about as you're looking at what you do. And even maybe where you're thinking about a change is to pursue that thing that is what you were meant to do. It's basically don't settle. It may feel like a pay cut or maybe a loss in the, we'll call it like the respect level of a job. Maybe instead of a doctor, you want to be, I don't know, something else, a programmer. And that maybe generally speaking, it doesn't have the same flash or the same wow factor or something like that. But if you're doing what you were meant to do, you will find success. And I think you'll find a lot more contentment and happiness as well. That's one of the things I wanted to drive home, even though we talk a lot about the actual success side of it, that there's more to it than just having more customers, bigger customers or something along those lines or a bigger paycheck. It's all about making sure that you're happy while you're spending all of those hours that go into your job. That being said, we will come back next time and probably wrap it up. We'll see how that hits the editing floor and whether we actually end up having to go to a fifth or not, because I really want to make sure that as much of that conversation with Sam gets carried through to you guys, that you get to win or I guess get the benefit of this conversation as well. So there's a lot of good information that gets here and gets shared, even though it's not the IT world. But this is a lot about, I think, picking the right job for you. That being said, I've been long with it enough. We'll let you get back to it. Go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. Thank you for listening to Building Better Developers, the Developer Noor podcast. For more episodes like this one, you can find us on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, and other podcast venues, or visit our site at developernoor.com. Just a step forward a day is still progress. So let's keep moving forward together. There are two things I want to mention to help you get a little further along in your embracing of the content of Developer Noor. One is the book, The Source Code of Happiness. You can find links to it on our page out on the Developer Noor site. You can also find it on Amazon, search for Rob Rodhead or Source Code of Happiness. You can get it on Kindle. If you're an Amazon Prime member, you can read it free. A lot of good information there. That'll be a lot easier than trying to dig through all of our past blog posts. The other thing is our masterminds slash mentor group. We meet roughly every other week, and this is an opportunity to meet with some other people from a lot of different areas of IT. We have a presentation every time. We talk about some cool tools and features and things that we've come across, things that we've learned, things that you can use to advance your career today. Just shoot us an email at info at developernoor.com if you would like more information. Now go out there and have yourself a great one.