Building a Referral Network

Welcome to building better developers, the developer podcast, where we work on getting better step by step professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of interviews and we're continuing an interview. This episode we are speaking with Ian Campbell once again of Mission Suite. We talked about a little bit about building a software as a service kind of product more as like a white labeling it and building a company, a business based on that last time around this episode we're going to get a little bit more into the networking side. How do you network? How do you get the most out of a network? If you're someone who doesn't really like networking, I mean if you're somebody that loves hanging out with people, meeting new people, talking to them all the time, you probably don't even care about networking because it's just natural to you. But if you've got other things to do, if you've got a life outside of just meeting people and networking and rubbing elbows, then you want to make sure that you do it in a way that is strategic and that is what we're going to talk about in this episode. So let's go ahead and jump right back into it. Our interview part two with Ian Campbell. The next thing that you get to do from there is figure out who your ideal referral partner is, right? Because now that you know, okay, for natural foods, there's my bullseye. Who are the people in the rings around it? And so I call it my referral bench, right? So if I look at a baseball team, I've got my home plate partnership, which is basically my pitcher and my catcher. I've got my infield partnerships and I've got my outfield partnerships, right? My home plate partnerships are the ones that at every turn of a play, there's an opportunity for us to be doing something together, right? Whether or not it pans out is a different story. But realistically, every client that you go into, I can probably go into as well. So oftentimes it'll take a while to develop the trust that you need to really create those home plate partnerships, but there's a lot of opportunity to do that. And that just comes with time. And then there's that infield of who are the people in that world, in the networking world that are dealing with, maybe it's the same industry, maybe they're also dealing in natural foods so they can kind of give you some insights into some of the other folks that are out there. Maybe they're dealing with the CIO, if your target person is a CIO, maybe they're dealing with CIOs, right? But build out that roadmap, if you will, that play chart so that you know that, okay, these are the people that are the perfect referral partners for me. These are the people that are kind of a step removed. And honestly, this will be your biggest group. And then there's going to be the outfield, which are kind of the ones that are like, I sell CRM and sales software to business owners, realistically an HR company or an insurance company. We're not going to find a lot of opportunities to refer business to one another. But for the fact that I'm a business owner and I talked to other business owners about business owners problems. But realistically, there's not a lot of opportunity there. So I don't ignore those people, but I also don't rely on them to focus on them for referrals. You get to know, first of all, who your ideal client is and then who your ideal referral partner is, because who's talking to those people. And then once you have those two things nailed down, then you can just start looking for networking events that kind of serve one of those two areas. Right? Because the people that say, well, networking doesn't work for me. Networking doesn't work for to grow this kind of business. Well, the reality is that yes, networking doesn't work for you. But oftentimes it's because you're going in there looking for just a person to sell to, or you're not kind of you're not you're too honed in on just saying, well, if I can't find a client, it's not worth my time. When the reality of it is, is that your networking events, you're not going to find a lot of direct clients there because the people that are spending the money aren't oftentimes aren't the ones going to the event. Right? But the people that are going to the events are oftentimes also dealing with the people that are spending the money. So if you're so I guess that's I've kind of used a lot of metaphors here, but to pull them all together, if you're able to, if you're able to find those networking events of the that, you know, obviously that deal with your ideal client profile, again, using natural foods, very few natural food CEOs are actually showing up to the events that are natural food focused, right? But the people that are dealing with the people, the industry partners are so find those industry partners that are also working in there and then create start to create relationships with them and then focus on your to focus your time there. You'll get lucky from time to time and find direct clients. But focusing your time on developing the actual referral network is can be that much more significant because, you know, I can probably introduce you to one person that can potentially do business with you. Or I could introduce you to one person that could introduce you to your next 10 clients. Which introduction would you rather have? And that makes and it's I think that that's a good point is a lot of people go in are like, oh, I want you know, I want that direct I want that person that comes to my front door and says, hey, this is what I need versus, you know, I think a lot of times is better. And it's that feast or famine roller coaster kind of thing that you talked about is then you're like, you get that person, you do their work, and now you're looking for the next one versus if you get 10, you know, referrals, 10 possible people to talk to, then maybe one or two hit early couple hit later. And now suddenly you've got something that's that's leveling that out a little bit more. Exactly. And it's more predictable that way, right? Because you can actually build a build a pipeline and like a real pipeline that, you know, with that, this project is likely going to hit six months from now, this one's going to hit two weeks from now, this one's going to hit a year from now. And then you've got something reliable that a lot of times if you're especially if you're not dealing with a recurring revenue business becomes incredibly important. Yeah, it's a lot less scary when you're if you're not in that recurring revenue approach, you know, and like consulting is a lot like that. I mean, it can be but, you know, it's usually more project based. So it's a lot less scary when you're getting to the end of a project when you know you've got two or three other projects that are at least potentials ahead versus, all right, now I got to start from scratch again, essentially, go back and find somebody and get the conversation going. And now I'm rushing through it because I want to start the project because I'm otherwise twiddling my thumbs. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, those types of things happen with consistency, right? And especially if you're because I used to do this all the time when I was doing some during the recession of 08, 9, 10, 11, 12, you know, that one, I used to I was, you know, I people weren't hiring marketing strategists anymore. Right. So I was doing agency work and it was all project based. And that became a big challenge for me because I was the I was the perfect example of this. That was a perfect example of what not to do. I would go out, go to networking events, I'd find a project, I'd start working on that project and I completely disappear from networking events and not talk to people. Right. And then I'd show back up to networking events. But again, because I hadn't been around for the past three months or six months or however long, everybody's getting to know me again. Oh, you still in that business? Oh, you know what? I honestly I thought you folded. I thought that you had gone and gotten a job or something because I hadn't seen you in so long. It's good to see you again. Well, let's get together again. Now, you all of a sudden you start not necessarily from ground zero, but you're starting from like, you know, from step two. Right. So instead of closer to step nine or ten. And so it becomes that much more challenging. Whereas if you can remain consistent in that in some way, shape or form, even if it's just and that's one of the ways that I've used Mission Suite a lot that one of the big reasons that I developed Mission Suite for consultants is because in those kind of one man shows is because there's ways that I was able to figure out how to use some of these systems that we have in place in order to actually keep in touch with people, even if I couldn't be physically at these events for periods of time. That's a little bit of a teaser, I think, because we're going to swing back. Yeah, right. I can start with, before we get into that side of that, that sort of automation side of it is how do you how do you because you've been through this a bunch. You've seen a lot of companies and organizations and you help organizations do this. How does how do you maybe get somebody going to say, hey, you're going to start into this and here's some things you can do to help it bear fruit sooner rather than later. So, you know, obviously you're going to have to put some time in, but, you know, maybe somebody says, OK, I'm not going to go into the first one and assume that I'm going to get business. But, you know, I can't do this for six months without feeling like I've got a good shot at getting something to come in. Yeah, absolutely. So again, that a lot of times that all comes down to a lot of the preparation work. And so I'm a bit more ambiverted or introverted than a lot of the salespeople that I know are. My wife, for example, is a great salesperson. She's hugely extroverted. She gets out there. She talks to a bunch of people. She gets charged up after it. Right. For me, it kind of goes the other way. Right. So but where my strength in that lies is that I'm really good at research and preparation, right. Because if I'm going to do something and I'm going to spend this energy to do it, I want to make darn sure that everything that I get the most out of it. Right. And so one thing that I do is so again, just get to a networking event, get to something, because even if you don't know where you're going to go, you're going to end up at a lot of crappy events. You're going to end up in a lot of places that, you know, you're just like, man, that was a waste of time and I'm exhausted. Whatever. But get to something and start because you got to start somewhere. Right. And and then and then make sure you're following up. So follow up with that with all the people that you meet. You know, if you go to a networking event, even if you if it's just like making a goal for yourself of introducing yourself to 10 people, having a five minute conversation and then thanking the host and leaving, that's an hour out of your out of your time and you can kind of get in, get out inside of an hour. Right. So kind of prepare, but prepare for that. Get ready for it. Right. So kind of set your goal in advance so that, you know, at the end of this thing, you've got 10 people that you can follow up with and then follow up with them. Right. So shoot them an email the next day. Hey, it was great to meet you at the thing. You know, either you talked about getting together. You didn't, but you want to. Would love to get together. What's your calendar look like for the next couple of weeks? Usually I'm available Tuesdays and Thursdays or whatever your whatever it is. And I'd love to get together. Looking forward to chatting again soon. Right. Simple kind of low, low commitment outreach. You're not saying, Hey, I want to sell you something. But basically with, you know, like your you were networking and you were networking for a reason you were networking to meet other people. I was doing the same thing. So let's take it to the next step. Right. So follow up with those people and then kind of you want to have a sense of where those people might be. Right. I mean, the aid, you know, you've got like ABC, for example. So let's say you talked about getting together again. They said, you know what, actually I've been thinking about doing a project that I'd be interested in having a conversation with you to kind of hear what you have. We're here. We're here. Your thoughts are about it. And well, that of course, well, yeah, I definitely want to get together with them. And then there's the people of they're like, Hey, I think, you know, do you, you work with other people, you work with CIOs, right? Fantastic. You know, I'd love to get together and kind of hear about some of the stuff that you're working on and see if there's any opportunity for us to maybe refer business back and forth. Yeah, the other that sort of stuff. Right. So kind of know where they fall in your kind of bench, if you will. And when you go in there, because that's going to affect your preparation. If you're, if you're going, because if you're talking to somebody that's saying, I, you know, I've been thinking about doing a project and I would love to talk more about that. Well, then you want, then of course you want to prepare by taking a look at their business, taking a look at what they're doing, you know, see if you can kind of glean some information on what they might be thinking about before you go to the, the follow-up meeting, the coffee meeting there, whatever that you're going to go to. Right. But more importantly are the ones that don't necessarily have a project in mind or something to think about, but are people that you think might be able to refer you business because those are the ones where you can say, okay, so this person is dealing directly with CIOs of natural food companies. Fantastic. Right. This is somebody that I want to know because he doesn't do what I do. I don't know what he does. There might be some opportunity there. Right. So in that situation, you kind of, you take a look, you know, jump onto the LinkedIn, take a look at some of the people that they've, that they've, that they've connected with and kind of get a feel for the types of folks that they've, excuse me, that they do have connections with. You can do that. You can do what we, what I call LinkedIn referral mining on LinkedIn, where basically you can say, you can do a, do a search, an advanced search, and you can even do this on the free version of LinkedIn. And you basically say, I want second connections only that are the, you know, CIO, you can do a bullion search for CIO, chief information officer, whatever, and then connected to John Smith. Right. And so then you can, you can see, oh, look, there are these 10 people that would be really good prospects for me. Right. And so that's where you're, and this is kind of where you got to get a little, you got to practice temperance a little bit because you don't want to show up to the meeting and say, Hey, can you introduce me to these 10 people? But you can, after having the conversation, if you feel like the conversation's going well, you can, you get to kind of say, listen, who could, what can I do for you? How can I help you? Well, who can I introduce you to? My favorite question is if I can make one introduction in the next six months, what would that, that would change your business for the better. What would that be? Right. And so, cause that gets them thinking about, Oh, this really wants to help me. But then, and then obviously they're going to say, Oh, well, and tell me a little bit about what I can do for you too. And that's where you kind of say, listen, I appreciate that. I appreciate the offer. You know, obviously we do a lot of work in the same kind of environment. We work with some of the same people, you know, I took a quick look at your LinkedIn profile and I, and I, you know, just real quick, these are 10 people that I think that, that you're connected to. That would be great prospects for me. Right. Not necessarily saying that I want you to introduce me right now, because we just met, right. We don't need to jump to the altar right at, right after the first, you know, after our first coffee date, but you know, just to kind of give you a sense of the people that I work with, the type of stuff that I do, these are the types of people that I think I can serve. Right. And then that kind of puts them in mind with what the types of things that they want to do or that, that you, that, that they can, that they can help you to introduce to. And so it kind of, it shortens that a little bit because you're putting prospects, you're putting potential prospects out in front of these people. Secondly, you're building yourself a prospect list, right? You're building yourself a target list of people that you want to get connected to in some way, shape or form. And so you can start working on that in a strategic way too. But then ultimately your next step there is to follow up with them again, right? Look for introductions that you can make for that person right off the bat. Cause now all of a sudden, you're the one that's giving first. And while you never want to keep score when you're get, when you're in a referral game, you're able to start kind of making them think, oh, this guy actually does what he says he's going to do. He, you know, he, he wasn't able to find the introduction to the one person that would change my business, but here are these five other people that he, that he introduced me to that could be really valuable. Well, that's, that's really cool. And then three months later, get together with them again, right? And then do another, have another conversation. And then I like to, and me personally, until I figure out where someone falls on that whole bench, you know, if they're, I like to try to get together with people once every few months for a cup of coffee. And of course, you know, these are people that you got, first of all, you got to like them, right? Cause otherwise your life is miserable and you know, you didn't, you don't want to, you'd want to get out of bed that day. So make sure that the people that you like, but you get to, you get to get together and have coffee, but every time you get together and have coffee, you get to say, Hey, listen, you know, I saw that you saw a couple of new people on your LinkedIn profile. And then over time, as that trust builds, you get to say, you know, we've been doing this for a while. Would you feel comfortable making an introduction for me? And then, and then you get to, and as you start to do that, you know, again, to your point, you don't want to wait six months, a year to finally see anything, but at least getting some sort of feedback, feedback and starting to build some credibility with those people by, you know, following up with the people that they introduce you to by making sure that, that they know that, you know, Hey, I had a meeting with Joe the other day and it was, it was, it was a great conversation. I appreciate that introduction. Those types of things are the things that build trust and really shorten that cycle. But then, and then you get to actually, because of the proactivity and the preparation that you did, you get to actually put people, put names in front of them. That makes them that much more likely to, to, to make an introduction to somebody. And you never know when you hit, you know, so I've had some of those where you say, well, here's a couple of people I'd love to meet and they'll say, Oh, I'm going to have lunch with that person tomorrow. And you know, sometimes it just, it all falls in place. And so at least you're, you know, that sort of the whole purpose of, you know, now you're, you know, front of mind to them and a bit, Oh, you know, you're looking for this kind of project. I just talked to somebody yesterday that may be a good fit for that. And sometimes that stuff will fall into place really quickly because you just, right time, right place. Exactly. Exactly. You know, and the more people that you, the more people that you have in your network like that, the better off you're going to be. Right. And, you know, the second thing that I would say to this is, you know, don't focus, don't shy away from asking for connections to other referral partners too. Again, I like to have, you know, I don't like to go out to every networking event and, I mean, when I was single, I loved it. But, you know, I got a wife, I got a family now, I got, you know, I got a son now, I'd like to be at home. I like to, to, you know, I like to make sure that all my conversations are meaningful, that purpose. And so networking events are, you know, they have a purpose for the time being, and then you move on to the next thing, and then you go home and, you know, what have you. But if, you know, what, what you realize as you kind of go through that process is that if you can ask for connections to other referral partners to say, Hey, listen, you know, I would love to meet other, you know, I would love to eat to meet, to meet marketing firms. I would love to meet these, I saw that you're connected to these five marketing decision makers, or owners of marketing agencies. I do a lot of work with marketing agencies back and forth, and I would love to have connections with those too. Because then you don't have to go to every networking event under the sun to find all the people that can actually make, create, create introductions for you. Yeah, that's a good point is this, yeah, getting the most, again, getting the most bang for your buck. Because it is, you're investing that time, you want to want to get something out of it. Exactly. And that will be what we pause for this episode. We'll come back next time. This will be part three, we will wrap up our conversation with Ian. Hopefully you've been taking notes. There were a lot of things that I think we brought up that Ian mentioned that are the kinds of things that you know, once somebody mentions it to it, to you, you sort of like, Oh yeah, I should do that. Some of the things he talked about are very, are actually rather basic, simple, and easy to do. The LinkedIn research and some of those kinds of things so that you're not going into a situation where you're just sort of blindly going in and trying to meet some people. But instead you have, as he talked about, so you've got your, you're building up your team in a sense, you're building out your, you know, your, your baseball field. And when he used that analogy is that you're, you're trying to figure out what is it that I'm going to get out of this? Who are the people that I want to talk to that are going to help me immediately? And then the people that will help me find those people. And then people help me find the people that will help me find those people. How do I build links in a way that I have links that I can directly work with, but also that I've got people that can point me to those people that can be directly beneficial to me. It's one of the things it's, you know, you're, you're thinking about it, you're being more intentional. And I bet if you try that just once, you would make a big difference in your networking payoff in your investment, because now you're thinking about what is it that I need? What is it that I really want to get out of this as opposed to, I just want more business cards or email addresses or something like that. And he's going to continue to give us some stuff. So don't put your notepad and paper away yet. You're notepad and pencil away yet, because we're going to come back next episode and we're going to wrap this up, continue talking about networking and how to get the most of it. And what he has done, somebody that I always think now you've, you can see this guy has been doing this for a while, has really thought it through and offer some excellent advice. That being said, my advice to you is go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. One more thing before you go, the developer podcast and site are a labor of love. We enjoy whatever we do trying to help developers become better. But if you've gotten some value out of this and you'd like to help us be great, if you go out to developer.com slash donate and donate whatever feels good for you. If you get a lot of value, a lot. If you don't get a lot of value, even a little would be awesome. In any case, we will thank you and maybe I'll make you feel just a little bit warmer as well. Now you can go back and have yourself a great day.