Purpose Driven Work, Career Growth, Burnout Prevention

Welcome to Building Better Developers, the developer podcast where we work on getting better step by step professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season and we're continuing our interview. We are wrapping up actually in this episode, our two part discussion with Katherine McCourt. We have been talking about having a purpose, purpose for your brand, for your organization, for your work, doing something that is purpose driven and not simply doing it to get a check or to make a sale. This episode, as we go into this, we're going to talk a little bit more about how this approach sort of cements your relationship a little bit better with your customers and how this allows you to do something that's actually a little more consistent than maybe just doing something just to get a buck, just to get a sale, but actually having a reason, connecting, building a relationship and using that purpose driven approach to actually build a more sustainable and consistent business model. But I don't want to take too much of her thunder away. So here we go back with Katherine McCourt. Yeah, I hadn't really thought of it for until just now, but to me it brings to mind the idea of musical groups that will be accused of selling out is that you get these people that have very, sometimes these groups have die hard, will go see the group no matter where they are all the time, fan base, you know, very rabid fans. And then they change something. Sometimes they change dramatically. Sometimes they just, they grow to a point where some of what made that relationship special before gets watered down. And now it's not the same for the people that were the, you know, the, the original fans or the original in that case, you know, the original customers. And now you've grown out of that. And sometimes it works. Okay. Maybe you grow into something and so you've got a bigger, you adjust and you have a bigger base and everything's well. Sometimes you find out that it really, like you said, you get a whole bunch of, maybe get a whole bunch of sales in the short term, but those recurring customers now have disappeared because they don't feel like there's no loyalty anymore. You have a, maybe a more recognizable brand, but maybe less loyalty for that brand. Yeah. And then you're, you know, you're starting to build your forecasts off of things that are not, I mean, forecast is looking in a black ball anyways, right? It's very hard to forecast. And I think most businesses, but you, when you, when you create the right connection with the communities that your product will really help or speak to, it's much easier to build a more reliable forecast from that than it is for something that you just gained this month because you did one little thing, but no one's going to keep the traction with your brand moving forward. So yeah, it's a, it's a balancing balancing act for sure. Swinging back a little bit earlier when you were talking about organizations and, and actually, I guess it's actually on both sides of this because it's both organizations that are working on their purpose and, or trying to be more purpose driven, but also individuals that are trying to have like a really sort of like a purpose driven career. How do you address the idea of them in the hiring and the team building and I guess on both sides of hiring and the interview process, how would you recommend that, that on either side of that, they address what their purpose is, particularly when you think back to some of the comments you made about people get into the job and then, oh, this isn't really what I wanted or what I'm doing doesn't quite align with what I thought it would, even though the organization does is how, if you do, how do you, I guess, to a two part to this, how do you recommend that people address that? And how is that assuming to do with some of these organizations, how is it received? Yeah, I would say, I mean, if you're out there and you're interviewing with organizations, you know, this an interview is a two part or two way situation, right? Like any conversation. So you're not there just to sell yourself to them. The company should be selling themselves to you as well. So it is an opportunity for individuals who are interviewing to ask the right questions about, you know, what is important to them that they want to see out of this company. So before you go to the interview, think of maybe two to three things that you want out of this company or that you the reason why you want to join this company and let the business tell you if that's really who they are and asking them, you know, oh, I, you know, I really resonated with your mission statement. Tell me more about that and let the let the interviewers share what that really means. Or maybe it's I heard you have such a great culture. Talk to me about that. How can you share about your culture? And so by getting these answers, you should be able to say like, that really does sound like something I want to be a part of. The other part would be to take the time to understand what are your strengths. So all of us, I would assume and maybe maybe not. Maybe some people are just starting out, but maybe they can relate it to summer jobs or maybe things that they did in college or university. But if you consider the things that lit you up the most in the jobs that you've had. And understand why that is, meaning the actual task that you're doing every day. So I'll give you an example because I'm in, I will am in was in sales is that there are a lot of salespeople that want to climb the ladder. And so they think, OK, I want to become that sales manager or that territory manager. But when they get there, they sometimes go, this isn't really what I'm enjoying anymore. And it's because they've lost the connection, maybe fully with their clients. They miss the, you know, the dynamic of being a salesperson because now they're helping build reports, managing people. So the dynamic of their their role has changed and maybe that doesn't suit them anymore. So the more that you can know yourself and what really lights you up when you're working. So is it the spreadsheets? Is it analyzing things? Is it communicating with your clients? Is it developing new strategies? What really fuels you? And when you're in those interviews, the more you ask about like, give me a snapshot of the day to day of this role and even ask, like, what are the current challenges in the role or what are the things that you think would be great strengths for this role? All those things should tell you whether or not this could be a good alignment. I hadn't I had never really thought about it because I'm not a I have not a salesperson or a marketing individual. But in the technology side, we run into that all the time where there is a there are different paths, different career growth paths. And for example, very similar to sales. What you do when you're starting out, if you're a salesperson, is you have a specific set of skills and specific things you do. Similar in technology, if you're like a programmer, there's certain things you do. But as you grow, if you grow into the management path, then by its almost by its nature, you do less of that thing that was your, you know, sort of your first love or what brought you into that. You're going to do less of that. And so it's interesting. I had never thought of it. Like I said, it's I guess because it's, you know, those blinders we have of what we know is it I guess it's the same thing. What we know is that IT has always had that challenge is it's and I think it's maybe it's more well known because of the personalities of programmers in particular is that they just they want to solve problems. They don't you know, they're not known as being people person, being a people person, which is a challenge as you get into to sales. Whereas sales, you know, I guess you know, you're you're a people person to start with sales. But then, yeah, you add in things that I know salespeople that don't want anything to do with like the the numbers side and the reporting side. They want to go out and talk to people and build those relationships and sell through that that personal contact. And the numbers really is they're like that's for somebody else. That's for accounting or somebody else. And it's interesting. I wonder, you know, that I think we we can see probably in other areas where you do have to be very intentional about what you do. You have to sort of take a look at what is it that you are moving into and is it going to be doing the things as you say, the things that that, you know, energize you and not too many things that drain you or you end up being somebody that sort of gets promoted to a point where they're miserable because it's like, no, I really want to go back and do what I've what I started out doing. Yeah. And I mean, this is what happens and this is why many organizations now have executive coaches and leadership coaches trying to help their leaders and executives understand, like, you climbed the ladder, you've made it here. If you're feeling unfulfilled, why is that and how can we start changing that dynamic for you and help you see the purpose and what you've done and created and find more fulfillment in your role? Because there are a lot of people out there that, you know, we we have grown up in a society where you climb the corporate ladder and anyone who doesn't doesn't aspire to take that next role up is frowned upon of like, oh, they're not a go getter or they're not driven or whatever. But you know what? There are a lot of people who are very happy doing what they're doing and they do it very well and they don't necessarily want to take on that next step. Maybe they can still develop their role and their skills and and, you know, they might still have drive, but maybe they don't want to go from being a single contributor to now managing a team of 25 people and not doing, you know, not really touching base on the things that really feel them in their in their maybe more subordinate role that they had. So I think also for like your your audience, Rob, just thinking about developers. And this is seen a lot with entrepreneurs, people who want to start a business because they love what they do. So maybe it's creating something. So like a developer. Then they realize that they're wearing all the hats. And then this is that part that, like, to your point is that they start realizing like, wow, I'm starting to do these things that aren't necessarily really waking me up in the day, they're draining me. But I really want this business to take off, you know, get off the ground and how do I do that? And so normally, entrepreneurs really should consider or take the time to consider, OK, what are some of those things that I'm just going to have to do is grunt work, but that aren't going to become 80 percent of my work in my day. I still want that 80 percent of my work that I do is the stuff that fuels me and, you know, lights a fire in me. Then what can I do with the other things? Can I outsource them for a minimal amount? Some people think like, oh, I can never hire an accountant. That's going to be expensive. But you know what? When you're starting out an accountant, you might only need them three times a month or less, twice a month. Who knows? Right. So I think people just need to really assess like, OK, what is going to help, especially as an entrepreneur, what is going to help them stay in their zone and keep developing their business in a way that allows them to express their best soul purpose part, if you want to call it that, while taking care of all the other things that help them scale their business over time. And I think it's a pretty good lead in it to one of the things you talk about is being able to sustainably, as you refer to, bust a burnout, to sustainably, sustainably, which in itself, I guess, a challenging word, avoid burnout or keep that from. And I think that is something that also is a is a sort of common trait of entrepreneurs and developers as well. So it's it's one of those things where you just you see it. And I think a lot of people just accept that burnout is part of it because you there's just this drive to be highly productive and high functioning. And there's always some there's some level of stress in there, but then eventually get to sort of a burnout and then nobody wants to burn out because then it takes a while to recover and all of that. So how do you how do you suggest some ways to to avoid that? First is always about going back to clarity and understanding what it is that's driving that burnout. So is it that you're working too many hours? Is it that you are? Not giving yourself some space. Time for some well-being. Are you stressing yourself out? So are there things that you are worrying about constantly that actually should not be as big a concern, but you've built them up so much in your mind. So a lot of it is working on your mindset. To be sustainable, when I say sustainably stay out of burnout, it's because you start recognizing the things that are contributing to burnout and you're able to start identifying them as they're happening in the very early stage, which then as a coach, we would work on tools to help you pivot away from that. So sometimes I catch people in the stress stage because stress and burnout are different stresses. You kind of know that there's going to be an end of the road to this stress. You know, maybe it's a project that you're working on and it's intense and you're working crazy hours, but you know it's going to come to an end and you feel good and you're okay with it. Burnout is when it's every day starts feeling really heavy. You might start having health issues. So a big one to watch out for is digestion. The sleep deprivation kicks in as well. Maybe you're waking up at all different hours of the night. You're not getting regular sleep. You're always feeling exhausted. Those are signs that you're falling into burnout or that you've already hit burnout and you don't want it to get worse. So if you can pull yourself out of that, which is what a lot of coaches help people with, is to figure out what is really going on. Where is the pain point that's causing this burnout? Only until you can figure that out can you really get out of it and stay out of it. That sustainable part. So is that going to be something that is, do you see that something that I guess changes over time or is that something where if somebody sits down and you know or goes through a couple of things, a couple of cycles and identifies those, I guess we'll call them those burnout red flags, do those tend to be pretty constant or is again something where you sort of have to keep an eye out on a regular basis that maybe something new has popped up that is a burnout issue for you? I think it's pretty constant. Once you start figuring yourself out better, and it really does come a lot of times come down to you because we are all, one of the things we forget is when we work in organizations and we're a contributor, we forget that we still hold power. And what I mean by that is that every reaction you have or every way that you react in your role comes from you and you're responsible. Although, yes, there are, you know, environments that may be toxic in a workplace, which is unfortunate and I would recommend anyone who feels they are in one to do the best to try and change it or get out. No one should be in a toxic situation. But the point I mean by you have the power, you, if you really take a moment and consider why am I stressed out? Why do I feel burnt out? And if you can get to that point, you have the power to make the decision of how you move forward. So some people say, I don't have a choice. All this work has to be done. This is my responsibility. Great. How do we work more efficiently and smarter? Not harder, as a lot of people have heard that phrase. It's been around forever. Only until you can assess those things and do truly start working more efficiently, you will then be able to avoid burnout moving forward. Because I think naturally you start recognizing your power when you start doing that, when you can identify what it is that got you there, how you got out of it, how you can continue to make sure that you stay on the right path of wellness. Even during the stressful times, you will be able to, I think, maneuver through burnout if it shows its face again, a lot more easier. Or you will avoid it. You probably won't fall into it again. And I'm speaking a lot from my own experience. I mean, I suffered a burnout. It's been 10 years now. But it went on for two years before a doctor friend of mine said, you know, Catherine, stress leads to death. And what are you doing? This is not worth it. And it really got me to change my tune. And also a yoga class. I have to say there was a yoga class that I started to cry at the end of the yoga class. And I had no idea why. And then the more I went to that yoga class, I realized that it was because I had not stopped and given myself space to recognize these things that were truly going on for me to get out of it. Yeah, that's amazing the damage that stress can do to people. And when you're in it, I don't think you feel it. But I've talked to numerous people and all kinds of stories of people that have gotten, when they've come out of it, how much it can turn things around rather quickly when you can get away from that stress and find a healthy release for it and push it away. How fast things can turn around. And it is, it's almost like night and day or just being fast asleep and waking up or something. I think people underestimate the value of, I guess, for like a better term, stress-free living. And maybe it's not stress-free, but removing particularly, like you mentioned, toxic situations or things that just, where you get to a point where you feel like you're stuck and that stress just builds up as opposed to being able to find some way to push it off. Yeah, the unfortunate thing or fortunate thing, but one of the things that happens a lot in organizations is you have people that you talk to, they are your work friends or maybe they're your friends also outside of work. And if you're all feeling the same, it's very hard to change that mindset. If none of you are wanting, it's not that you don't want to make the change, but you get so, it's kind of like, you know, misery loves company, right? So if you're really stressed out and burnt out and you're sharing this with others and then they share their story and then you constantly talk about that, that can compound the situation that's occurring. So if anyone is in that situation, I would just recommend, it's not that you have to not be friends with these people or, you know, step away from them. It's like, who has the courage to say in the next conversation, okay, guys, we've been bitching about this for a while. How do we really want to feel like we certainly don't want to feel like this? So how do we want to feel? And then just slowly people will start, you know, saying things more positive and then maybe each of you can help each other out of it. Being like, great, so if we want to feel like this, what do we have to do to do that? What do we have to do to start feeling this way instead of the way that we've been feeling for a while? Because there are cancers in businesses, you know, toxic situations, and sometimes they people feed on it and it doesn't get you anywhere. So that's part of your power. When I said, you know, everyone has the power is sometimes it's just asking a simple question, like, okay, guys, we've been complaining about this for a while, but truly, what is it that we really want? So we don't want to feel like this. What do we want to feel like? And what do we need to do to start feeling it? Yeah, sometimes just asking the question is the first, you know, is that is a big step to sort of that eye opening. Oh, wait, I guess we don't have to do this. We don't have to sit around and commiserate all the time. We could actually be doing something, you know, productive or not draining. Something that actually brings us some happiness instead of just lets us all, you know, talk about how bad life is. Yeah. And sometimes it's as easy as just, you know, I want to go for a walk at lunch every day. Would you like to walk with me? Great. And then make sure that that walk isn't about complaining about the situation, but just enjoying that time or talking about something you're going to do on the weekend that you enjoy doing could be as simple as that. And just getting away for a little bit sometimes is a can be huge. So one of the last things I wanted to bring up is you talk about how fear is holding us back from what we truly want. How would you, how do you see that? And particularly, you know, we've gone through a lot, covered quite a lot in the last about hour or so is where do you see fear being an issue and something that factors into a lot of these decisions that we've talked about? Yeah, fear is in us all. I think, you know, as children, we're fearless and we're not afraid of it. We're fearless as children, we're fearless and, you know, society and life takes over. And there are things that that we fear. I also think fear is a lack of confidence. Right. When you think about like, oh, if someone said to you, you need to give a speech to the company tomorrow, maybe it's a lack of confidence because you haven't done it before. So that could be coined fear. Psychologists coined fear as false evidence appearing real, because a lot of times it's so when you don't know how something will pan out or if you don't know how something will feel, maybe you fear it. So you don't want to do it, but you don't have the evidence yet to prove that it's going to be harmful. But we all have fear. And I guess the thing to consider, most people say if you can push through fear, you know, there's usually something better on the other end. And I certainly have held back and pushed through fear. I'm sure a lot of people have. But if someone is really fearful about something moving forward, especially as an entrepreneur or in their business, try and think about things that you've done in the past that relate to that, that maybe can act as your fact that it can all work out and that it can be positive. So yeah, anytime you're feeling fear, I would say try and think back to a time that's similar that you can relate and see if that's a fact that it could all work out. Yeah, that's an interesting contrast. There's children are fearless because they have and everything they're doing is new. They don't have the things they've done it before. And we get older and there, you know, suddenly because I guess because there are some things we do that we've done before, those things suddenly that we haven't done before some become a source of fear in some situations. And so it's interesting how we, I guess, how we adjust ourselves or how society impacts us or whatever it is that is that catalyst that changes us from saying, hey, cool, this is something I've never done before. Dive right in versus this is something I've never done before. I am scared to death to go in that direction. Yeah. And most of the time someone's already done it before. Right. And so that's proof that it could work or you learn from it and go, wow, that absolutely didn't work for them. I'm not going to do that. Right. It could go either way, but certainly most things have been attempted or done and maybe everyone brings their own spin to it. Maybe it could work. And I think, you know, we have close friends and family that really care for us. And a lot of times the fear is instilled from things that they share. So what I mean by that is, you know, you might be saying like, oh, I'm going to start this business. And one of your friends will say, oh my God, are you sure? Like, I hear starting a business is so hard or it's so expensive. Or do you really think you can make this work? Do you really think you'll make money from it or something to that fact that it's really their fear. It's their fear that they're expressing. It's not that you can't do it. Some people, it's because they don't want to do the same work that you're willing to do to get to a certain place. You know, some people will say, oh, I would never bungee jump and you might want to, but are you not going to do it if you want to just because, you know, somebody's telling you that, that you could die and they're fearful of it? No. So most people talk from their own experiences or how they feel. But I would say if you have a friend or you have a family member that doubts what it is that you're doing, ask them to be supportive and, you know, be patient and see what you could create. Good point. Well, wrapping up, how would, you know, now that we've spoken with you for a while here and I'm sure everybody is on the edge of their seat saying, man, I just really love what she has to say. What would be some great ways or the best ways for them to get ahold of you, you know, if they have any questions or particularly if they were like, hey, this is something we need. We need to, you know, either I or my organization needs, needs somebody to help us figure out our purpose and how to really make that a part of our business moving forward. My website is my name. So Katherine McCourt.com and in there, you'll see all the ways to work with me. There is a tab say work with me and there's several ways. I work with small groups as well as one to one individual sessions. I also have programs which can be run one to one or in groups as well. But I do hang out on Instagram. That's kind of where you can connect with me just both personally and see some of the things that my business is up to and that's at Katherine L. McCourt. And then I have the Fearless Future podcast, Instagram, which is fearless.future. But I will let you know, I'm in the middle of rebranding my podcast. So it is going to be launched, I believe, this week. So it'll still be the same. You'll still I'm using the same podcast. I'm just rebranding the show, but it's still in line with being purpose driven. It's just going to be feel a little more niche. So is it so you're you're you were altering your purpose a little bit and making this a little more specific towards that purpose? Yes, exactly. Because right now it's called Fearless Future, which I really wanted to showcase people's stories of courage, you know, making transformation in their life or their business. And this will still be a component of it. But because the whole foundation of my coaching business is being purpose driven, I feel like rebranding the podcast, it's going to be called the Purpose to Prosper podcast. And that will be changing. You'll probably see the cover change this week and I'll release an episode just announcing that. Oh, cool. That's why it's nice to see that. You know, things like that evolve and sort of you sort of using your own recommendations a little bit to that to say, hey, here's where I really want to go. Yeah, thank you. Well, I want to thank you for your time. And it's been a great conversation. There's a lot of good for those who are taking notes. I'm sure they got through a couple of pages worth of them. And a lot of it's it's it's interesting. It's an interesting conversation a lot because these are things that you hear them and it's like, oh, I should have known that. Or, you know, it almost feels like common sense. But until somebody says it to you, it doesn't. I know people struggle. They're like, how do I get through this? And then you'll say something like, oh, yeah, that's exactly what I should do. But, you know, sometimes you need that extra that extra set of eyes or that slightly different perspective to help you through, you know, whatever your blocking problem is. Yes, exactly. There's we all have blind spots and a lot of what coaches do are it is common sense and bringing you back to a place of focus. So you're totally right, Rob. It's a lot of people probably will be like, yes, I know I should really be doing this. But it's the accountability piece. It's recognizing your blind spots and coaches help you do that. Well, excellent. Say good pitch for coaches in general right there to wrap it up. So thanks a lot. Thanks for your time. And hopefully we'll catch you again soon. Yeah, thanks so much, Rob. A pleasure to be on the show. And that will wrap up our conversation. I hope that you've walked away with this with a little more of an idea of where maybe your purpose driven work job side hustle can go and putting a little more meaning into whatever that happens to be and whether it's why you get up in the morning and where you work or why you stay up late or work on weekends because you're, you know, you're sweating it out working on that work, that side hustle. Putting a purpose into what you do can be very helpful. It could be a great way to break the monotony and, you know, honestly, in a way to sort of give back, you're putting all this work in and yeah, you get a, you know, you get paid, you get a paycheck or whatever. But this, I think, gives you that that's serving a higher purpose. You're doing something that is beyond simply paying your bills. And as always, we are not done with our conversations, it seems, because we're going to come back next episode. We're going to have another conversation, continue to just fill up your notebook with some cool notes, some great ideas that are coming from all of our guests. And until then, go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, because then we will talk to you next time. Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening to Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Nor Podcast. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, anywhere that you can find podcasts. We are there. And remember, just a little bit of effort every day ends up adding into great momentum and great success.