Podcasting

Welcome to Building Better Developers, the Developer podcast, where we work on getting better step by step, professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of interviews and we are starting a new interview. This episode, we're going to start our discussion with Jason Cercone and we're going to talk podcasts. You're going to hear a professional radio announcer type voice from Jason. So just listening to his voice alone should be a big improvement, should help keep you awake. We're going to talk about a lot of things around podcasts, why you should have them, how you can leverage them, how you can use them. And this is with any business. This is not just as a developer and his business is about getting people out there and getting heard and making the most of your audience, whatever they happen to be. And so we're going to dive right into this. We're going to start out talking about how to produce, essentially how to put together a podcast, what it should sound like, why the typical things like, hey, I don't think or something along those lines are things that you can get around. The things that are blocking you maybe from a podcast, we're going to talk about why those don't need to be blockers. And then we're just going to plow right on. Hopefully by the time you're done with this interview, once again, you're in a situation like, wow, this is something I can do, I want to do. And of course, if you think Jason can help you reach out to him. But without further ado, let's start our conversation with Jason Sercon. Okay. Today we're talking with Jason Sercon and we're going to be talking about podcasts and we're not going to talk necessarily about building them as much as, although that may be part of what we discussed, why you should have one and why you might even want to be not only have a podcast, but maybe why you should be a host or be on a podcast as a guest as opposed to a host. He's been doing this for years. He's got his own podcast has been around for about eight years and has spent a lot of time. You can actually go out. We'll have links in the show notes. You can go out and check his site and see where he can help you see what the benefits of a podcast are. And so with that brief introduction, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got here? Well, first of all, Rob, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to get to connect with you and your audience. I do want to make one point. My current podcast hasn't been going for eight years. I've had several that I built and then they went away or they're still in existence, but they aren't. There's no new content being added, but overall experience is pushing eight years as we sit and record. But yeah, podcasting for me, I did radio in college and I absolutely loved it. Wanted to pursue it, but it just didn't work out. So as I got into the professional world, I went a number of different directions. And back in 2000, well, it was more 2011. I had talked to a buddy who was doing a podcast and it just seemed so foreign at that point. And podcasting really hadn't come into its own. But the more I got to know what he was doing and me and my buddy were kicking around some ideas, we finally decided what we were going to do. And we started a podcast in early 2015. We took that show as far as we could. But in doing that, I realized there was a real affection for what I was doing in college with radio and now the ability to do that through podcasting. It was much easier. All we needed to do was get the equipment. We didn't have to worry about sound studios and all these expensive potential broadcast pieces of equipment. It was just the Internet was our friend. And the better the podcast was, the better it was going to be for the brand we were building. So, as I said, we took that podcast as far as it could go. We shut that down. I started a second show and about 20 episodes in, I realized that podcasting is really where I want to be. But I want to get good at this. I really want to take some time to study, discover what other podcasters are doing. How are they speaking to their audience? And at the same time, how are radio personalities and television personalities, newscasters, how do they communicate? How are they telling a story to the camera or to the microphone? And I wanted to bring some of those skill sets into my practices. So it ended up being about a year and a half that I spent studying. And then I jumped back in and you'd be surprised once you put that kind of work into learning a craft and a skill set. It's not I'm not saying it's easier, but it's much more smooth as you turn on the microphone and start having those conversations. And then that morphed into me helping a friend start a podcast. And then from there, I started working with others doing the same thing. And then I started working with people on the guest side, helping them become better podcast guests and leveraging this platform to grow their brand and get their message out there. And I built a comprehensive training and communications program that allows people to truly maximize their ROI on this space. And from the business side, I know that's what it's all about. We're all trying to build our brands and we need a powerful vehicle to get there. Podcasts are where it's at. It's a very hot medium and it's not going anywhere. It's only going to excuse me. It's only going to continue to evolve and get better as we press forward. Well, there's a lot to start with. I guess the first thing is for you started podcasting. Were you were you a fan of podcasts? Was there a broad range or maybe a couple that you listen to regularly? What was your sort of before becoming a podcaster? What was your experience with it? Honestly, it was very minimal and it was fun. I remember when I got my first iPod and I opened it and I was looking at the screen and there was a section for podcasts. And I remember saying to myself, what the hell is a podcast? And opened it up and there was nothing there. So I just dismissed it because I had got my iPod for music. And then fast forward to where we were at an event. And that's where I had met this gentleman who was doing what he told me was a podcast. And I said, you know, I'd heard about this before. Tell me a little more. He said it's basically radio for the Internet was how he defined it. I said, OK, but that's appealing. And then as we moved on, I started to get into talk radio a little bit more, which was just a very natural transition to podcasting at the end of the day. But there is a few shows here in Pittsburgh, a couple of sports shows that I really like listening to each and every day. I always found myself in the car on the commute home when they were on. So I was able to have access to those and then shows like Opie and Anthony and the Howard Stern show that talk radio for me was more of an introduction to how to utilize this platform versus just diving right into podcasting. Once I got into it, I was in the beer world at the time. And I had started a craft beer advocacy website and that had morphed into an app. And I was doing some marketing and advertising and sales with some of the brands here in Pittsburgh where I'm located. So naturally, I just started to listen to other beer podcasts. And most of them were just drinking. We're going to drink the beer and we'll talk about it. And that ended up being what our first podcast was with a little mix of some other things. But when I got back into it, after I had taken that year and a half hiatus to study, I launched a show, but I wanted to focus on the business side of things because I felt there were enough people out there doing the drinks justice. I wanted to be on the side of what can we do to help people within the business increase their sales and increase their customer experience when people visit their locations, things of that nature. So the show was based around that. And I felt that was more in my wheelhouse. And now that I'm in the podcasting world completely, I'm able to build on that and continue speaking on the business side of things. So folks that are looking to build a good podcast, understand how it can impact their business in a positive way. So long winded answer to your question, but it was it was more of talk radio that led to the transition and that I, of course, dove in hard after I got into podcasting myself. That makes sense. It's actually a very similar kind of journey that I had as the same way I got, you know, back in the day, got a little iPod and had music on it and saw that podcast saying, I was like, wonder what that is and started seeing, people would start saying, oh, I've got a podcast. And then there was, you know, there weren't that many, not the millions there are now. And eventually I was like, oh, this is this is pretty good. Like when I'm traveling and something like that, I can take, you know, sort of take my radio with me. Yeah. And it is. And that's where I want to go next is how do you see particularly having that broadcast background and then spending some time in radio and then sort of moving, transitioning from, you know, into sort of talk radio and then into podcast? How do you see maybe some of the differentiators from having a podcast like having a radio show? Well, for one, it's more Wild Wild West on the podcast side. That's probably the biggest differentiator because you're not governed by any type of FCC regulations. You can pretty much say what you want, whether it be condemning or not. You have free rein on the microphone and maybe someday that will change. Who knows where this goes? But as it is right now, you have the freedom to create content at your will. So I think that's probably the biggest factor. And I look at podcasting as this very. Minimal barrier to entry type of platform where radio might be a little bit more difficult to break in, and you may have to invest thousands of dollars even to get like a 30 second to one minute advertisement on the air with podcasting. You have the ability, if you want to, to create content at your kitchen table. And once you put it on the Internet, it's now got global reach. And that can be pretty powerful, especially for brands that do business internationally and even on the hobbyist side of podcasting. If you're looking to reach people in larger corners of the planet, you now have that ability. And radio waves are usually limited to a certain geographic region, and it's hard to break beyond that. I know that there have been improvements to where you can now get radio stations on certain apps, and I think that's a step in the right direction. But for me, I think podcasting allows that more free flowing creativity and allows you to really express yourself. And like I said, maybe that changes down the road and regulations get put on this. But as of now, it's a pretty powerful way to get your message out there in any way you see fit. And so from what it again, from that, so that that broadcasts and I think anybody listening can can tell that you've got that broadcaster kind of voice as well. When do you work with people when you're talking to them? Do you is that I guess, how do you handle that? Because some people are just born to I would say, you know, I have a face for for radio kind of thing. And there's people like that. And then you've got people that that aren't that they're like, I don't like the way my voice sounds or I'm not necessarily. I'm not a professional speaker or something like that. So how do you how do you work with people or address that? When you've got people saying, hey, I've got content, I've got a message, but I'm sort of scared about putting it out there. That happens quite often. I think the first thing that I typically address, because it's it's oftentimes the first thing people bring up is they don't like the sound of their own voice. And I immediately say, you're the only one that cares about that. And that's in reality, that's what it is. We're in our own heads convincing ourselves that our voice isn't good. I never felt that way, but I also didn't feel like I had this voice that so many people have complimented me on to where I finally said, I must be missing something. And if this many people are telling me that I have the greatest radio voice, not the greatest, but like a great radio voice, maybe I should run with that, which has led me to do some voiceover work, because I just felt like, why leave this hidden in the closet if somebody feels like there's actual value to it? So and of course, that was a natural transition to podcasting. But when it comes to working with others, it comes down to that message first. And what we'll do to get things started is typically just start off with some trials. Like, let's just do some sample interviews. Let's have a sample conversation. Let's record something to allow you to hear yourself. So you can start to break down that wall that you have up that's saying that no one wants to hear your voice, because it's not true. When people tune in, they're not thinking about your voice. They're thinking about your message. So once you can get past that hurdle and start focusing on the value of your content and how you're communicating your message to your audience, it becomes a much easier process. And in doing that, you start to find confidence in your voice, because that's typically what holds a lot of people back in a number of different ways, from podcasting to videos to public speaking scenarios, if you're not confident in what you have to say, people can read that. If you're not prepared for what you need to say and the message that you need to communicate, the audience can pick up on that. So it comes with preparation. It comes with putting in reps. Now, I'm a I've been golfing since I was seven years old. So practice swings are just second nature. You're always going to take the practice swings because you need to get better. That's how this works, too. The more you do it, the more confident you become. And over time, that belief that no one wants to hear your voice or your voice just doesn't sound good starts to go away. And it becomes more about the message that you have in place. That's a good point. Now, I want to I want to sort of dovetail off that or leap off of that and sort of flip the other side is so. A lot of times you get you get whether you're a host or a guest, you get just canned pitches, you sort of get to. Or even speakers and even like stand up comics and stuff like that, where you've got, you know, it's all about timing that. But it's it's the same thing. It's very rote and very routine. And particularly in the podcast world, because it is usually like said, sort of wild, wild west. It's a little more free form and not necessarily where you can just like, you know, hammer down your three sound bites and be done. How do you I guess with it, how do you coach people to do that, to have that confidence in their message, but also, let's say, give life to it. So it doesn't sound like they're just like reading it off of, you know, reading it off of a teleprompter or something like that. That's a great question, Rob. Honestly, this is something that I've been on a soap box about lately because I feel like this is where podcasting needs to go. And content creators and guests need to start understanding this on a higher level. If you're not thinking about the listener experience and creating compelling content that people actually want to grab onto when they listen, they know, OK, this is exactly what I showed up for. I am staying tuned in till this interview is over, till this conversation is over, because I know I'm going to be impacted by what I hear, whether it's for entertainment, for education. If you're not thinking on this compelling level, it's hard to grow. And when you don't see any signs of growth, it can impact your confidence and make you feel as if your efforts are all for nothing. So let's start with the host side and the producers of content for podcasts. If you think people are just going to show up at your doorstep because you launched a podcast, you're going to have a very bad time. This will not be enjoyable for you because that's not how it works. Even if you've developed an audience in other areas of the world, like social media, for example, not everybody in your social media audience listens to podcasts. Therefore, they may not jump right away to listen to what you have to say on your podcast. So you have to think on this level of high quality content or bust, because if you don't, you're not going to get people to tune in and then get engaged and most importantly, emotionally invested. It's just like anything else we consume in our lives, television shows, movies, books. If you don't feel that attachment in the early stages of watching a movie or the first few episodes of a TV show to where you start to care about the plight of the characters and that hero's journey, you're going to tune out. And you're not going to tell others to watch it. You're probably going to tell others to avoid it. That sucked. Don't watch that waste of time. So podcast content works the same way because you need to be building something that informs, educates, gives the listener what they showed up for. But then when they listen, they say, this is great. I'm going to tell my friends, I'm going to tell my family, I'm going to tell my colleagues. So more people start to tune in. That's how you get the measurable growth that you need. So from the host side, that starts with creating compelling content and having a format that caters to the guest's expertise, or guest's expertise, but that conversation goes a few layers deeper than those canned surface level questions that they've probably been asked on a hundred of hundred different mediums before they were on that podcast. So going beneath the surface by maybe asking an author, tell me about a time that you were hating everything you were doing with your creation. And you just wanted to delete the whole thing and start over. Something that's a little deeper than just saying, what was it like to write a book because that surface level. So you have to go a little deeper because when you, if you're tuning in, you like engaging content, right? So as your listener from the guest side, guests can do a great job by providing information to podcasters. Rob, you can attest to this. You probably get pitched or presented by a number of different people that want to be on your podcast, right? A lot of times people show up with these very generic presentations. They really haven't researched to make sure, make sure the show would be a good fit for the expertise they'd be bringing to the table. And the information they provide doesn't set them up for the best success they can have. And what I mean by that is one sheets and online profiles all typically have a section for suggested questions for expert topics, which gives you as the podcast or the ability to build a show format that will cater to that person's expertise. So when the guest shows up, if they have value in mind and the host knows I'm going to ask some great questions to elicit powerful responses, the chemistry starts to build as the conversation goes on. Everybody's working collectively to create great content. And the guests did their part by providing some conversation, starting material to the podcast host so they can ask and everything comes together nicely. So the listener tune it, tuning in says, this is exactly what I showed up for. I'm coming back next week. And I'm going to tell my buddy to show up and listen as well. That's how you grow. That's how you get better. And that's how the confidence gets instilled because you can see actual results coming from your production. So for me, I, the biggest advice I'm giving to everybody right now is you have to think on a deeper level because if you're just thinking surface level, that's the production you'll have. It really won't lead to the growth that you need to have a successful podcast or to get results as a successful guest. That makes sense. And that's a good point with that is the, the list of questions that a lot of the one pages, you know, pagers will have because you get that all the time. Somebody says, Hey, they'll say they've listened to it. They probably have listened to maybe 30 seconds. They've looked at titles, but they say, Hey, I think we're going to be a good fit. And those questions inevitably are like a key part of the decision process. Cause if I'm looking at those and say, Oh, that, that makes sense. Cause that's something that fits what my audience wants to listen to. Then I'm going to go talk to them. I'm going to say, okay. And may even talk to them and say, Hey, these couple of questions are where I want to go because usually people, they can go different ways and see that allows you to step into it. And more importantly, I think for people that are wondering, how would I ever interview somebody other than just having, you know, five questions that I ask everybody, I think it does having those questions. And when somebody sort of gives you those prompts, it's not like you're meeting somebody on the street and just striking up a conversation. You've actually got some, essentially some, even better than icebreakers right away to say, here's what I know about you. And here already is hopefully my goal in having this conversation. And then it makes that interview something that is much more organic. And so particularly, you know, if you're somebody that's scared of a podcast, cause you're like, I can't talk to people. I'm not going to know what to ask. And that stuff actually sort of goes away because the, the context, the entire concept of it helps feed you that kind of information. Rob, I could not have said it better myself. If you start to remove the mindset of interview and start thinking about it as more of a conversation, you're instantly going to put both sides at ease. So if you're the guest coming in and saying, instead of me having to sell, sell, sell today, I'm just going to show up and have a great conversation. Like I'm meeting a friend for a beer at the bar, or if you're the host and you think, okay, I've got to, I've got to ask all these questions. I've got to get every one of these out of this. Won't be successful. If you think that way, it's going to put you in a weird state of mind. But if you just say, I'm here to have a nice conversation with this person as if we just met for a cup of coffee, everybody's mind is at ease. And it instantly just brings the relaxation level to a new point. And you don't have this pressure on you to perform, which is something that can impact confidence and something that can throw somebody off. Because when you think interview, at least this is how I think, I'm thinking like you're showing up for a job interview. And typically a job interview is like a grill session to where they're asking you questions about your past and why are you the right fit? For this job. It's a different type of feeling. And you can probably attest to this as most people can, the job interviews where you were instantly made to feel more comfortable and at ease with the situation usually went much more smoothly. So removing the interview element and thinking about it as just a simple conversation between like-minded professionals is the best way to proceed because that way everybody's mindset is different. And it becomes much easier to produce that organic content because I'm, I kind of want to speak for everybody, but I would much rather listen to an organic conversation that breaks out just because two people have some similar thoughts and can share some perspectives versus someone just rattling off 25 questions and the interview, not being a complete interview until those questions are asked. Like there's a time and place for that type of thing. But in podcasting, if it's about the conversation, I think more people tune in for that and they stay loyal to the show because of it. I agree. And you get to, you get to learn more about people instead of that, that sort of sterile, here's my, you know, my stock answer to these five questions and we even do it ourselves. It doesn't matter who you are. It's not just a sales thing. It's just a, I've answered this question a bunch of times and I just, you know, rattle it off. But when somebody throws that, that curve ball, and then suddenly, oh, I hadn't thought about it that way. Or they ask a followup. Then you get to, you know, you get to learn a little bit more about people. And even for me, like, you know, if you listen to a bunch of podcasts, sometimes you'll, you'll hear a guest on multiple podcasts or a host, and then they're guests somewhere else and you'll get a very different feel for them. If they go through some good discussion type situations, because they'll be, they'll go down paths that you may not have ever touched on in another, you know, another episode or in another conversation. Yeah. 100%. I feel that the compelling questions that's what will lead to that type of thing, because as a podcaster for me, the best thing that I can ever hear from a guest is that's a phenomenal question. No one's ever asked me that before, because when somebody says that, I know I've done my job to elicit a response that they've probably not got to talk about very often, or maybe never have before on a podcast. Obviously, if they're saying no one's ever asked me that and they mean it, this is something new. So they're going to share something that they don't get to share very often. So in my mind, I'm thinking this is great audio content, but now I've got my preview for when I promote this show, because I've got this person, I can, I can, this is the first time this story has ever been told. It's breaking news. And that's where being compelling and asking those deeper questions, that's what it'll get you. If you don't think on that level, you'll get the same surface level candidates has been said a thousand times. Now it's a thousand and one type of responses. So that's 100% dead on. You have to be thinking on that compelling level at all points. You know, and as a listener, I think about that. If I'm listening to a podcast, particularly, you know, one that I listen to on a regular basis during drive time or something like that, if I'm hearing, Hey, nobody's ever asked me that question before. That's actually going to draw my attention as a listener. I'm going to be more likely to listen a little more closely and say, Oh, well what was that? I make, sometimes I'll rewind and go, what did he ask? What was that question that had never been asked before? Cause I just sort of, you know, it was just sort of listening along and now it like, it re-engages. So it is really, those are, it's like anything like that. It's like building those were that essentially that relationship and then sharing that with your, your audience. Part of it is always going to come down to some, you know, some, I don't necessarily probing, interesting questions and different questions that you can actually get the personality and the thought behind it, as opposed to just a, a, a cleansed answer. Yep. No question that in silence, you said, go, cause some people fear silence. So they'll use a lot of filler words like, um, and, uh, and just, instead of letting something hang, they'll throw that filler in there. But if you let something hang, it can make a listener go, wait a minute, what did I just miss? Cause there is this profound pause after something perhaps very epic. Well, I got to rewind and make sure I got all of that. So yeah, that's another thing that can make people go backwards. And again, all ties to being compelling and having captivating content in place. Yeah, that's an interesting, it's a little bit of a side note there, but a lot of the pod catchers, basically they call them that, you know, the, the ways that you can consume podcast data now is built for people in a hurry. And one of the things a lot of them do is they will remove pauses. You've got these things that you can listen to it. It'll remove all of those pauses. And suddenly the dramatic side of a voice almost disappears. It is really amazing to me because I've done that a couple of times on podcasts where I'll listen to it and I'll get a whole different, I'll talk to somebody about it and have a whole different feel for what went on. And it's cause I, you know, if I sped it up or I didn't, you know, we got different, a whole different story almost entirely based on the silence or lack thereof. Absolutely. One of the gentlemen that I followed when I was doing in that study period, it was somebody I'd actually been following him for years and listening to his show, but I got a little bit more analytical and I noticed that when he was on one of his rants, cause he tends to do that from time to time, there would be this five to six seconds of just dead air and on radio. That's the, that's typically taboo. And it was for dramatic effect. And that was when I, I saw as I listened to that and realized what he was doing in my head, it was, I coined it as silence is your friend. If you let a point hang for a moment versus just jumping right in and saying a point and then going, um, and then, and taking that dramatic effect, dramatic effect away, you lose a little bit of the story loses a little bit of the luster. And I don't think the point is driven home is hard. So for me, I'm thinking if I say something that I feel is profound, having a few seconds of silence is a pretty good thing. Sometimes, and I don't do this very often, but on my podcast, if I feel like something needs a little bit of extra drama to it, I might add in a second or two of extra silence. Like I said, I typically don't do that every now and then if it fits, it just makes for more compelling audio and it gives the listener more time to process what they've heard so they can make a decision one way or the other on what this person's point of view is. But if you're instantly just jumping to the next thought or the next question, you will, you lose a lot of that. And that's where we'll pause this time. We'll come back next episode and we will complete our discussion with Jason. Hope that you have been taking notes and put your pencils down. You can rest your hand and be ready to take more notes next episode because he really does have a ton of information that he provides. As they say, he's dropping value bombs all over the carpet, bombing with value bombs. A lot of great information. Had a great conversation with him. I hope you're getting at least even half of it out of it that I got. If so, then you're already overflowing. That being said, well, let's get back to your day. So go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. Thank you for listening to Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Nor podcast. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, anywhere that you can find podcasts. We are there. And remember, just a little bit of effort every day ends up adding into great momentum and great success. Hi, this is Rob from Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Nor podcast. We're excited to be on Alexa now. You can enable us by simply saying, Alexa, enable Building Better Developers. And we will be there ready for you. Every time you want to listen to your now favorite podcast, whether we are your favorite podcast or not, we would love to hear from you. So please leave a review on Amazon.