Burnout Prevention and Productivity

Welcome to Building Better Developers, the Developer Nord podcast, where we work on getting better step by step, professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. We are into a new interview. We're going to be speaking with Victor Monzo today and in the next episode. He is a mindset coach. This is a little bit deeper dive into how to be more productive on a personal level. This is not necessarily about to do lists and processes. However, there are some things that we're going to get into that I think will at least get you thinking about how you want to adjust your processes. We'll start out with sort of some background and we're going to talk about burnout and how it comes and how to fight it and how to in the next episode, even how to see it coming and how to make some adjustments sooner rather than later. But he's the expert, not me. So let's go ahead and dive into our call with Victor. Well, today we are talking with Victor Monzo and he is a mindset guy. He is a coach that can help you with your mindset, which is something we've talked about before. It's something that is key to success or sometimes a critical point of failure if you're going the wrong direction. But he's going to talk to us about what he's seen, his experiences. And I think the best way for us to get started is if you can just go and give us a little bit of your background and tell us what you do. Yeah, I know. Appreciate that. Yes, I've been in the coaching world for the last four years and in the last 12, I've actually been a chiropractor in the process and it was my own experiences coming out as a very ambitious chiropractor wanting to make an impact in my community. It really grew a successful practice to where after about five years, I was burned out, exhausted. I hit my financial peak, but having those things follow up with unfulfillment and unsatisfaction, it was kind of like this is kind of wrong. I thought when I get to this point, I'd be happy and things would be just great and kind of like on autopilot and it wasn't. And I had to redo some soul seeking and redirect my practice, redirect what was purposeful to me and then also kind of go back to some old things I knew and how to make the choice to like from a mindset perspective, from neuroscience and all this other stuff, how do I choose my own success? How do I define success and then have that experience? And that was kind of the question I was asking at that point. And then for the next couple of years, I applied it and it was amazing how effortless almost pretty much it became where I took a 40% hit on purpose because we changed our office around. But then yet a little over a year later, I hit that mark back with also working 50% less than what I was originally doing. And so from that point, that's where I started opening up into the coaching realm. Like I need to help business owners in this in some way, shape, or form because if you look at burnouts, over 60% of business owners have burnout in some way, shape, or form based on Forbes and article from Forbes. And when we look at that, it's alarming. And I think it's even higher actually. And it's one of those things where how can we, is it just part of the way? Is this just how life is? And if you listen to the business world, you listen to self-help and personal development, they're just going to say you have to grind and hustle and do this over and over and over again. And I was like, this isn't going to be for me. It's going to be something different. And I created that and I experienced it. And then from there, I was like, I want to, I want to shift gears to business owners if I can start out as a side hustle. And then last this last year, this is what I've been doing full time is being a business coach and my coach, mindset coach, and literally rewiring people's ways of how they see life and be able to choose a different aspect and then have that experience that in their physical reality. Oh, that's a great, great starting point. And I guess before we get, since it sounds like that's going to be one of the things we're going to talk about a bunch here that we'll keep bubbling up is how do you define or maybe there's a medical definition even of burnout or how do you, how do you see that? Because I do think that we, we have some level of it occurs to probably almost everybody at some point. Then I'm wondering if there's sort of like a, you know, like a line in the sand that you can say, oh, this is, you know, actual burnout versus you're just, you know, bored, or a little tired or something like that. Yeah, I love this question. It's real. It comes down to a couple of things. I mean, I mean, exhaustion and fatigue is one of those, but that can show up in any different realm. This the other part, these next things are going to be more classified to it. And it's like lack of creativity. Well, you just can't, your brain's overwhelmed. You can't think straight. You lost focus on vision. Your creativity side is gone. Like you just you can't imagine things. You can't create a be creative in your thoughts. Ideas don't come to you like they used to. When you have to go do what you normally do every single day, those are things that they start to stress you or you're exhausted at the end of the day from what you love to do. Those are usually clinic. Those are more signs that lead to burnout. And not only that, then there's also the depression side or you're irritable or you get angry really quick. I mean, again, these can be common in a lot of people because if you just look at the public, a lot of people are mostly I would say if you want to see how the public is and how they're doing, just watch how people drive. You can tell if they're very calm and relaxed or if they're not. And especially when they tell you you're number one and with a special finger. But it's it's one of those things where these are kind of the the characteristics that will lead to that. It's loss of zest of life. And you're not really just being that creative side. And things are more daunting of a task. Like I remember when I was going through burnout, it was one of the things that really bothered me about it was I was very passionate. I'm still am very passionate about chiropractic. And I couldn't understand how I love something so much, but then yet be burned out. Or I could even like create ideas in my office to start how to you know, what can I do to help enrich the experience of patients in my office and do those kind of things? I was just like, I don't even want to think I just want to break from life. And that's the essence of what burnout. Again, it's not just one thing, it's a cultivating multitude of things that get us to the point where we're just we're done. Like I said, I I'm just barely getting my feet by, you know, sleeping that well. Those those are all some of the characteristics to it. And that's it's an interesting thing because you started out with, you know, there's there's always exhaustion and fatigue, but then there's that point where, as you refer to, you just lack creativity, you lack drive at all. And it's it's always been one of those things that when I've run into, it's the same thing as you say, it feels like you're you're at a point where you're just trying to put more in and, you know, get across a goal line or complete a project or whatever it happens to be. And then that's when burnout hits. And so it's one of those where it's almost like literally like a like a car that the engines running too hot, too long, and it just blows up and now it's useless. And I think people need to be probably more cognizant of that is that burnout's not just like, hey, you know, I'm going to take some time off, you know, take a day off and I'll be fine, that it is a it's something where it can it can take a while recover and you go from wherever you were at to effectively zero. You know, it's really hard to get any forward progress once you you hit that burnout state. Yeah, and it's one of the things, too, about burnout that's like people don't realize about it, too, is that it's not just in business or the creativity of the fulfillment side of things or even the loss of sense of purpose, but it's also leads to disconnection with purpose or with family neglecting your self care, taking time for yourself and not also being present with your family or partner, your kids, your friends, you're just like you're just going through life and it's not really being in the moment of enjoying anymore. That's one of the more because your health gets affected. I mean, burnout bleeds over to every facet of life from family to money. Could be to money because once you get burned out, you're not creating as much and that's going to affect that eventually. But it will affect family and relationships, your health, your mental health and things along that nature. So it leads over in other areas, too. Now, is that a do you see that as a cause or an effect? I mean, is that something where a lot of cases where people are burned out, they've already sort of gotten into that that disconnection and that's part of where things just drain on them, where they don't have that self care part where now everything just drains them and they're not getting that that recharging, you know, energizing type of those things or those activities in their life. Yeah, I would say massively in effect. And some people may make an argument to say self care is the cause. But in my world and when I mean, I'm a health nut to the to the max, I've been like this for over 20 years. And it's one of those things where I know like back then, I remember when I started to feel the burnout coming, I'm starting to be like getting overwhelmed, I'm getting stressed. And I'm like, why am I getting stressed? Everything's fine. But I was just so burned out in some ways. I could feel it coming. So then I would focus more on my self care. I would make sure I meditated more and make sure I do my breathwork, my exercise more. I would do more self care. And yet it would still lead me down that path because it's kind of like, you know, there's there's a max point to how much you can grind or hustle or how much you can do. I mean, there's a couple of reasons why burnout happened, but it's one of those things that you can't just you know, our bodies are amazing, but the mind is a little different than the body in the sense. A lot of times we treat our our mind like it's like a muscle, right? We just keep working it. It gets stronger. It gets better. The mind doesn't work like that. The mind's a little different. It needs more rest than it does need work. And this is not just my own experiences or my own research on neuroscience and what I know about the brain, but also there's there's there's studies that have come out that talk about that. Less is more for the brain. And there's a peak of what we can handle and so much more when we look at optimizing brain function and so forth. And it's one of those things that if we look at how we do things, it's we we we are this is why we're so burned out as a culture. And I say culture in a sense, not just in business, but in life. I mean, being a chiropractor, I worked with a lot of families. And I'll tell you, there's a lot of families that had very similar symptoms to what business owners go through. It's not that much of a difference. So is there a lot of, I guess, correlations or parallels between the chiropractor side and I guess more like the neuroscience side of of burnout? Yeah, I mean, it's all it's all it's all nervousism at the end of the day. You know, there's some other things to it, but like burnout, you know, obviously one of them is just, you know, you're constantly grinding and hustling. You're just trying to figure everything out, going without having a sometimes it's just constantly doing, hoping to get to a certain point in goal in life. But the other side of burnout that happens, though, is that when we have a lack of focus and vision, we have a lack of alignment. No, and I mean that from a chiropractic standpoint, but there is a crossover there because when the body's in alignment, when the spine's alignment, everything works more at ease when your mind's in alignment and your actions are in that alignment, your focus is in that alignment while you attract things more at ease or you experience what you want more at ease. And so it's that's kind of the correlation to those kind of things. But at the end of the day, it's nervous system first before anything else. From a chiropractic standpoint, when I evaluated and looked at people, I'm always looking to see what part of them, you know, how much is their nervous system stuck in stress, if that is, and then how much has that had been playing a role on other parts of their nervous system? Well, it's the same thing in life. I mean, if you don't have you're stuck in stress and you're constantly in that what we call sympathetic tone, that's part of your autonomic nervous system. It basically runs on its own when you're stuck there. Well, you're not going to be in that much of a creative process. The part of your brain is harder to reach to that because you're in more survival. So we're more in reptilian. We're more in that aspect of reacting. We're in that basically to put it in a different context. We are like primates. In other words, you're going back to our evolutionary process as a primate. And instead of being a human being who can, you know, the part of our brain that we can future plan, look into the future, see how it's going to coordinate, how it's going to work out and so forth. When we're burned out, we can't get to that part of our brain. We've been so in a stress and burning up resources and reserves that we get to the state of exhaustion. And it's kind of like an oil change where, you know, the car is running and you think it's all fine, but there's an oil change that needs to be done. And then you're like, whatever. But then all of a sudden, you know, if you wait too long, eventually that depending how much you keep grinding away, eventually you're going to break the engine down and we don't want to get to that point. But burnout usually, you know, it'll lead to a lot of other things before that happens. Yeah, that's that is I guess is one of those, again, that's why it is probably underestimated is the reach that it has. And now we're seeing more and more of that in the last, probably now in the last even couple of decades, you see more where people are tying stress to health issues and even like chronic diseases and stuff like that. There's a lot of research now that's saying, hey, you know, you've got to run at a you've got to run at a better pace if you try to run it even 100 percent all the time over time, that's just going to wear you down and it is going to cost you in the long run versus maybe back it off a little bit more. And then you're going to be, you know, overall happier, but also more productive. Even if you want to look at a bottom line, you're going to be happy workers or productive workers kind of thing is that you're going to be more productive in your professional life. But obviously, you know, then also that translates to so many other areas of life that are, you know, are all interconnected as far as being getting to success and happiness and things of that nature. Yeah, it's I'm sorry. Oh, no, go ahead. No, I was just going to agree with you and just comment that, like, you know, there's things that a lot of times in business world, they always look at, like, how to be more productive and they look at time management processes. And I'm like, time management does not, you know, it could make you more productive, but there are things that are actually even better in ways. And that's energy management. And what energy is, is what that does is it aligns with the law of least effort, which means what's the least amount of work to get the greatest gain possible. And when you are putting all your energy focused at a moment, you are going to get more work done in that short period of time. Like, let's say it normally will take you two hours to get something done. If you put all your laser focus into something, you can be done like in 30 minutes and now you have an excess of an hour and a half time to get other things done. And that's the that's the difference we were bringing up there about like we get more done, we're more effective in that way when we can do that. Yeah, that's that's something that I've found really fascinating by something that's referred to as the normally it's called, I think the Pomodoro technique, where you basically do typically it's you pick a timeframe. Usually it's I think the common one is 25 minutes of just I'm going to sit down. I'm going to focus on X, whatever that is. I'm going to focus on this thing for 25 minutes and then I'm going to go at least take five minutes off and just go walk around, do something, get away from it. And a lot of people that I've heard from and seen, you know, they use it over the years, they'll use it during a workday. And, you know, typically you'd say, OK, well, if I'm working eight, if I do half hour Pomodoro's and I've got eight hour a day, I'm going to get 16 Pomodoro's in. Well, typically you don't because there's just things come up and stuff like that. So they can't get that focus in. But they'll get in, you know, maybe 10, maybe 12, so maybe five to six hours of work, but they'll they're way ahead of where they normally would be. They're far better off doing that focus time as opposed to. And this is even remote workers that don't have, you know, your if you're in an office, you get interrupted and things like that. These are even people that just, you know, it's just them. But to sit down and like you said, to focus for that period of time on that one product or that one project or that one task makes a huge difference. You can make a lot better progress than you would then I think anybody would expect until you till you've gone through it and done it a couple of times. 100 percent, I think it's there's a, you know, add a little more to that with the neuroscience behind it. There were studies that were done and they looked at they we know that our brain from a working perspective, each individual is different. And so I always tell people like I my processes is always like, I'm not going to cookie cut and say this, I'm going to say you got to find what works for you. That's what I'm all about. And it is I think it's like 20 to 30 minutes is like the low end and the studies that they found. And it can be all the way up to about an hour and a half. Some people can push up to an hour and 45 minutes. And this is looking at peak productivity from the mind perspective and how the brain you can work intensively at a certain period of time. Everybody's different. So like for me, I found that I'm about an hour and a half. So I can be 100 percent on on my A game for an hour and a half. But then once that hour and a half is up, I need to go take 15, 20 minute break, maybe even 30 minute break just to reset. But then I can go back and I'll have another whole hour and a half to get my A game again. And then I have to go take another nice 20, 30 minute break. And that's what I found that has worked for me. Some people, excuse me, some people who are shorter timeframes like 30 or 40 minutes, they can probably take a 10, five, 10, 15 minute break. And you just get up, walk around, refresh your body, get motion going, get movement in, maybe get outside, get some fresh air. It just resets the brain, refreshes everything. It's kind of like restarting your computer. And then all of a sudden when you get back down, you'll get you'll be able to then all of a sudden your productivity will be there because you know, you start to know like you'll start to feel it like it's just like I know for me, I'm like, all right, I'm not computing as fast as I normally do. All right, time to take a break. I'm done. My brain needs to take a break here at this point. Yeah, and I'm the same way as I found that. As I there's a certain this, like the recharge period tends to be about the same for me regardless. So if I spend 30, 40 minutes working on something hard and I need to just recharge, it's still going to take me probably 15 to 20 minutes because you got to like I've got to like wind down a little bit and then change gears and that. And I get the same same effect. Basically, if I go probably closer to like an hour, it's the same thing. If I can go an hour, then one, I feel like I can get a lot done in an hour. And then it's also for me, and this is from a focus point of view, it allows me to really focus on that thing. I get in there for if I spend an hour on it, get a lot of progress. Then when I take that, you know, 20 minute, 30 minute break to recharge and reset, whatever I was working on is now not bubbling around in the back of my head because like, hey, I got that done. I don't have to worry about it. I made, you know, got to where I wanted to get to because if I don't, then, you know, when I and when I don't get that kind of focus and when I don't get some sort of a closure on it, then that ends up sticking around in my head and you don't get the same. You're not focused on the recharge time either. You're focused too much. You're now getting sucked back into work. And then it's going to take me longer to recharge. Exactly. 100 percent. Yeah, I love how you refer to that as energy management, because that is something that I think it's it. It feels like a cliche. Well, I guess it is a cliche is to work smarter, not harder, which usually has more to do with automation and things like that. But there's a lot that I've seen, again, research in the last few years about everybody, again, as you said, is different, but about people working in their, I guess we call like their peak times. So if you're a morning person, there's a huge difference between you work in four hours in the morning versus four hours late at night. Or if you're a night owl, you're going to get far more done if you work at night than if you work in the morning. So being able to move around your schedule to fit you, if that's possible. And I think a lot of people were able to do that, you know, with covid and people going remote and stuff like that. There's a lot of things that changed in the last few years that was at least an opportunity for people to figure out what was their their best time. But even if you work in an office job, you may be more in an afternoon person versus a morning person or or vice versa. So I think that's something too, is is finding the times that you are you have the most energy and being able to utilize those to the things that you most want to get done. Yeah, I was kind of fascinating through that process, because I remember I was talking with a lot of patients about this, because most of them are all working from home and they were like, it kind of changed the work culture in a way because they were like, I'm getting eight hours of work done in four. Like I'm getting more done faster. And they're like, I can work a couple of hours, take a break, do some things around the house, come back. I'm like, don't let my boss know I'm doing that, but I'm getting my work done. That's all that matters. And but what you're bringing up is a really important point. This is something I work with a lot of my clients on. And it's something called your chronotype. I don't know if you ever heard of that before. And a chronotype means and there's many different people who came out with this research and talk about some, you know, some say that the experts on it. But it basically that we're all of us have a certain time frame for peak mental performance and peak physical performance based on certain questionnaire and questions that come up in. Like, for example, for me is I don't like getting up early in the morning. I'm known as a grizzly bear. Fifty five percent of the world is like this, where we get up, like to get up around six to eight. I like to get around. But I push myself at four thirty five. But what was interesting about this, when I went to do this, you work years ago, it asks you, like, when do you feel like you want to work out when you can work out your best? And I remember I used to get up at like five in the morning and go work out. But I always felt like I couldn't really exert. Like when I measured my strength, I wasn't hitting my max numbers like I always would. It was interesting. I was like, I'm not I'm like a little under maybe five, ten percent. But that was enough for me to be questioning it. And then I would work out like in the afternoon at lunchtime between 11 and one. And I would be like hitting my max, hitting some PRs and so forth. And then evenings, if I went like after six, not bad. I can push it, but it would affect my sleep then. So I was like, OK, evenings are out. Then I did the kernel type thing. And it's actually grizzly bears like to have physical activity between like 11 and one ish is our time frame. Our work activities around eight to 11 is where we like to. That's where most of my creativity is. It starts kicking in around seven thirty eight. And then I'm good all the way up until 11, 12. But like if you ask me to do the same stuff I did in the morning in the afternoon, my mind just doesn't want to work that way. And it's not because of what I did in the morning. Sometimes I'll have the morning off. And but the afternoon, it's just not firing on the cylinders I wanted to. And so that's something that is I usually like to for my clients, get them to know what that is. So then we can work with what works with them and then restructure things if we can. I mean, they're business owners. So as a business owner, they can do some of those things if possible to make it work for them in a way that they can utilize this for their advantage in some way, shape or form. And that's just those are the kinds of things that you don't get taught that in school. You don't see that really in business or anything, because we have these these schedules that are preset and they they really do not take any. There's no individuality in it. It's just there's certain business hours and things like that that we we live in. And it's it's interesting that, you know, to see how big a difference. I didn't know that it was physically five or 10 percent is is a substantial amount of a variance just from a few hours, you know, just during the day. And you think about that and who knows what it is on what is on the mental side. But even if you figure, you know, if you're even 10 percent less effective in one time block than another, that's huge. And it's funny as you're describing that, because I guess I'm a grizzly bear as well. As I say in the morning, you know, seven to about 11 noon, something like that. I'm awesome. And I struggle. I don't have the same level of mental. I have to change around the work stuff I do in the afternoons because I don't have the same focus in the in the afternoons. And I've I've also played around with different workout times. I think that was probably my my best was actually midday. I've done early and it was OK, because it like just got me up and got me moving. But I do think it felt like it was felt like I got more done or I was it's just more comfortable with it when I do that, you know, that lunch workout kind of a routine. Yeah, it's such a game changer. And like I said, I love the morning stuff because I was getting up early and getting it done, but then it's out of the way. But it's there's that performance side that you're like, how do I max my performance in that process? Yeah, I mean, that's and that's what a lot of it is, is making the most of. It goes back to just energy management and time management and things like that. In a way of. Put things, put yourself in a situation that you're making the most of whatever you're investing, whether it's investing time or or physical effort or whatever it happens to to be to get there. Now, I do want to swing back a little bit on burnout, because one of the things you mentioned was that there were several I think like signs and reasons for burnout. So I think I would move too far off of that is what are maybe some things that you've seen, you know, particularly from the physical, but also just with your clients and things like that. What are some signs or some, you know, some that you are or warning signs that you are on that path and to burnout? Yeah, great question. I mean, the body never lies, you know, it's from a health perspective, from just life in general, it's always engaged to let you know where you're at and what's going on and what are the are you are you in harmony with life or are you not in harmony? Because when you're not in harmony with life, the body's going to show you show up in some way, shape or form. And sometimes we just think it's, you know, like, for example, I had a client who's been stressed for the last few months. And today I was talking and she's a chiropractor and I was talking to her and she's like, yeah, my neck's out, my back's out. And I just looked and go, you knew that was coming. She goes, I know it was coming. It was eventually going to be a matter of time. And I was just like, let's see. I go, at least you get it. You know it. You know that you've been exhausted. You've been overwhelmed and things like that. Sometimes these things come under the radar and we don't know it. Like sometimes we're just getting over anxious. We're getting overwhelmed. And we're thinking that you really the problem is it's it's it's not that it's hard to detect. It's easy to detect. It's just that we're so in our heads. That's what makes it hard to detect. But if we can get into our bodies and feel it becomes easy because you'll start to notice, like, I know what I'm starting to get overwhelmed. I know that I get feelings inside and I'm just like, I feel like I always have to get things. I have to do some. I have to do this. I have to do that. And that's usually my first sign that I'm starting to rev. And when I start to rev, I know that's going to start to lead me down a course that if I don't put that in check immediately, it could be a day, a week, a month, some point in time, I'm going to get to burn out. And so then I just need to take a step back and slow down. When you feel like you have to do stuff in a way that constantly always have to work, that's another sign that you're leading towards burnout. It may not be burnout, but you're leading towards it because you feel like you always have to do something rather than take a day off and relax. No, I can't do that. It's crazy. No, I can't do that. I got to keep going. You're in that rev mode. You're in that over your nervous systems revving. And it's a different way of looking at things, because like in Eastern philosophy, they're always like, if you feel like you have to do force, then don't do nothing. But in our world, what we do is we constantly think we have to do more and more and more to achieve that. So these are just some of them. Sometimes it can be sluggishness, tiredness. Those are usually the biggest signs. You're waking up in the morning and you just don't feel refreshed. Now, there's other factors that could play a role in this, you know, just from my health background. And there's a lot of things that can come up with that. But if you don't feel rested, that's going to be that's usually one sign that can show that you're you're kind of overdoing things here a little bit. And that's what we're trying to become aware of is that what are the signs for you that show up? That's going to be over. You're starting to overdo things because I want you to think of this as like, you know, gasoline and a gas tank, right? You eventually going to get on me once you're on me. You're in the danger zone. Burnout is just going to happen because it's just going to burn up. And that's the end of it. Now, all of a sudden we're in burnout and it takes a lot of work to get out of burnout. We think it's just mentally when we start feeling better, it's there. We're out of it. You got to rebuild the reserves in the body, got to rebuild the reserves in the mind. And it takes sometimes it can take a month or two months to get that back up and running properly to keep moving forward and stuff. But as I said earlier, too, the body never lies. So sometimes little aches and pains, lower back, neck. It can come up anywhere because it's everyone has different weaknesses. For me, my back, it's stiff, a little achy and tight. And I'm like, OK, I'm I'm I'm I need to slow this down. I my body's telling me something. Even if I did a workout, I could did leg day really heavy, I could blame it on leg day. No, my body should have been resilient, should have been bouncing back. It's not bouncing back as much as it should. Maybe you do a workout and you're sore a little more than you normally would be. I do a lot of cold plunging, which means I submerged my body in cold water, 40 degrees, 50 degrees for about four minutes, three to four minutes a day. And there are times this is a great indicator for me now. This is a new test because what happens is I've been doing this for now since July pretty much every day and there are times I will go in there. Same temperature, same everything. Nothing changed. And that water will put me in an effect to where when I come out, I got to warm my body back up, I'm tired, I get exhausted. And that's a sign of my nervous system being to rev, to rev, to overwhelmed. So I'm kind of giving you some examples to pick it up, because the thing is, is you got to know you got it's going to be a little bit of work for you as an individual to understand what shows up for you. Because we all have patterns. And when you become more mindful of these patterns, you can catch them more quickly. Again, just sharing my story, mind's my mind. I start to get overwhelmed. I feel like I have to do things more. You know, the second thing is back, it's stiff. That's another sign for me. And then the third is I don't heal it. Well, there's two more workouts that takes my body a little longer to heal. Or get less sore. And then the last one is the cold plunge. Now that's a new one for me where I'm just like, yeah, that that affected me a little bit. How better? So then the next day, if that happens, then the next day, I rearrange my schedule a little bit. And then I slow things down and just take more self care for me as much as I can. So that way I can rebuild those reserves so that I don't kind of keep burning them up. And that is as good a place as any to pause. We will wrap this one up. We'll be coming back next episode and we're going to get just dive right back into it with Vic. It was a really good conversation I had with him. So I hope you are looking forward to part two as much as I was when I went through it the first time, a lot of great information. He gives us a lot of things that I think we don't think about or consider. Or they just don't get discussed as much, even though maybe we all sort of know it. And we'll talk about that more into the next episode and where we go and how we can set ourselves up for success, essentially. But for now, let's go out and make today a success. So go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week. And we will talk to you. Thank you for listening to Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Noor Podcast. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, anywhere that you can find podcasts. We are there. And remember, just a little bit of effort every day ends up adding into great momentum and great success. Please check out school.developa-noor.com. That is where we are starting to pour a lot of our content. We've taken the lessons, the things that we've learned, all of the things that make you a better developer, and we're putting it there. We have a range of courses from free short courses up to full paid boot camps. 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