Goal-setting and Achieving Success

Welcome to building better developers, the developer podcast, where we work on getting better step by step professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our series of our season of interviews and this interview we are continuing as well. We're going to go back to speaking with Jason Skisic from Spearing Clover. We're going to talk a little bit more about the mastermind side, about community, about tribe and we're going to get into some really good stuff that I think is going to be the kind of thing that you want to put in a, you know, take some notes and look at where you want to go, what you want to do, what are your drivers, why are you doing it? And I think this will help motivate you. And in the end, it may be something where you say, Hey, I need to spend some time with this Jason guy. I think he is what I need to kick it up to the next level. But let's go ahead and instead of listening to me, let's go back to the expert on this in our conversation with Jason Skisic. I love the idea of BHAGS, of the big hairy goals and trying to set something that's beyond what, you know, there's like reasonable or whatever that, you know, goals of like, oh I can make a 5% raise in the next year or something versus I'm going to double my income. I'm going to triple the size of my business. How do you and sounds like you've sort of done that. How do you recommend people go into something and figure out what the BHAG would be in the first place? And then how do you then after you've set this almost by definition impossible goal, how do you actually start taking steps to achieve that goal? It's a great question. I start with the steps. And so what I try to do with folks, and this is another part of something we do in our course, is we start with goals that are based on inputs. Doesn't mean we don't end up with a goal that's based on outputs, but we look at the inputs. And so usually somebody will come to the first workshop, having done a little bit of the pre-work and they'll say, my goal is to make a million dollars next year. Let's just say. And I go, great. OK, what did you make last year? Well, zero. OK, well, what did you make last month? You need to hit eighty three thousand a month. What did you make last month? Last month we did twelve thousand and it was the best month we ever did. Great. OK. And so what changes are happening this month that you think this month you're going to hit eighty three thousand? Well, gosh, I never thought of that. And so what we do is we say, all right, let's let's talk about what the mountain is that you want to climb. But then we need to make sure that we can actually. Account for the scaffolding that goes underneath of that mountain to make it possible. Right. And so what I typically do, like, for instance, one of my goals next year is to go to Jiu-Jitsu one hundred and fifty times. I can do that unless I get tragically injured. Knock on wood. But I can do that. It's not to go win the world championship in Jiu-Jitsu. If I go one hundred and fifty times next year, I probably will compete and I probably will be in great shape and do really well. And so I really try to start with goals that are centric on what my input is. And then what I can do as sort of a optimist or a conservative optimist is I can say, all right, based on these inputs, I think it's reasonable to say that we might get this outcome. So I'll give you an example. When I was starting this business, so I had retired for a year after selling two businesses in two years. And when I decided to start doing it again, I wanted to set goals. I did the work that I'm leading entrepreneurs through now for myself. And I said, OK, so what's my goal? Well, I think I could sell 10 of these a month. Great. So is my goal one hundred and twenty? And I stopped myself and I go, no, I sold zero last month and then I think I can sell four this month. You know what I mean? And so I was like, all right, I think that if I take these actions, if I go on these number of podcasts and have this number of outreaches and these number of phone calls, that I can sign up one person a week no matter what. So my goal went from one hundred and twenty to fifty two. And Rob, if I hit fifty two, it'll be a really successful year for me. And so here we have an example of like I was in earnest putting up a goal that is attainable and maybe I'll do one hundred and twenty. But actually, when I look at the inputs, I know I can hit fifty two. And so that to me is much more valuable. And now I can win just by doing the inputs and hitting very reasonable short term, medium term and long term goals. And I'm sitting on a pile of wins. And what do we call people that are sitting on a pile of wins, Rob? We call them winners. Right. The worst thing you can do, especially when you have a team, the worst thing you can do is paint some b-hag as you were describing it. And and then the first month we don't hit our number. Well, gosh, now we're catching up in the second month. What if what if the second month is our best month ever and we still didn't hit our number? So you have your best month ever and your team feels like a loser. That doesn't make sense to me. That's really something that. It's a great point is having that that positive feeling of, hey, we won something versus we're we're struggling. And that's why usually I'll look at it as things like, OK, well, you know, we're reset and and definitely with having those reasonable goals that are close enough up that you have a good shot of one, you have a good shot of being successful. And two, you have a quick if it's you know, if you have like a little bit of an off day or something like that, like for yourself, if you say I'm going to hit 150 times next year, if you have a week where a car blows up or something so you can't get to Jiu Jitsu for a week, it's like, OK, well, I can just I can go an extra time here, an extra time there. And so now you have something that's recoverable versus something where it's like, oh, OK, you know, I'm like most people at the. Yeah, works perfect. Sorry, man, I was trying not to interrupt you. Oh, that's OK. I just back into it. Drank too much coffee this morning, man. I'm sorry. I'll be right back. So as we're and as we're talking right now, we're getting close to a new year and you have the infamous New Year resolutions. And it's amazing how often, you know, the New Year's resolution is I'm going to make a million bucks next year. And you get to even maybe even the end of the first week. You're like, I haven't made any more than I did last week. So bail out. You know, it's just then you not only have that that negative, but then you have an excuse basically to bail out of it as opposed to having somewhere you've got that win. You know, like you say, you get a couple of wins and now you're piling them up. And now you have that momentum and even that mindset of, hey, I'm a winner. I've been knocking things down left and right. And so I'm going to keep knocking things down. I'm going to keep making progress. Now, I want to flip back because there's it's interesting that you mentioned from your your approach of, hey, I'm going to go 150 times next year. Is that sometimes where you do sometimes build backwards a little bit and say, hey, what is it, particularly for yourself, because you have your you have these goals, you have these values, you have obviously these things that you've got to point. You say, hey, I want to do what I want to do. I want to do things that are going to make me happy. I know what those are. So do you do some of your planning or you say, well, these are things I'm going to do. Like, I'm going to go 150 times this year. You sort of look at that and say, hey, maybe I should I'm going to be good. I'm going to be in shape. So maybe I should add competing. Here's some things that I didn't even think about. But hey, maybe I should tack a couple of goals on and give myself something that's like, you know, that bonus reward for completing this this set of goals that I have. Yeah, it reminds me of my old days in modeling in Excel, GoalSeek, where you go through data and you do GoalSeek. And what happens is you say like, all right, I want to be very fit. You put you kind of meet from both sides. You say like, I want to make a million bucks and I want to work a 20 hour work week. Go and it GoalSeek. It's so basically just kind of builds the scaffolding in between. And so I sort of start with a rough idea of where I want to get and a rough idea of what I'm able to put in. And then I start to just ask, you know, I just start to ask like clarifying questions that I treat logically. I think ultimately some of the some of the most successful in the people in the world have an engineering background. And there's no it's not a mistake. It's because they learn how to solve problems in a way that breaks things down to their essential elements. And so when I set goals or when I solve problems or when I hire somebody and train them or create a marketing campaign, there is a series of questions that are there whether I choose to answer them or not. But if I take the time and I answer those questions, it becomes very clear, very simply whether or not I can do it. And so if you said, hey, my goal is to next year, win Mr. Olympia. It's easy to say why I couldn't. It's a little tougher and a little more nuanced. If you said my goal next year is to be one hundred and eighty five pounds. OK, well, maybe that is attainable. What types of things, what type of behaviors, what I have to do in order to get what type of results? And I could walk you down that path path overtly, but I don't want I won't. And so I guess my point is the more you're willing to answer the nuanced questions, the more precise your outcomes will become if you stick to the plan. That's fascinating, because that's actually one of the things that, as you said, it comes down to really problem solving. And it's amazing from a geeking out a bit from a technical side in dealing with software and providing solutions for people, how it it ends up often being where we're helping the that customer, that owner do some problem solving and say, OK, well, you yeah, you've got this problem and you want to solve, but helping them ask the right questions and even understand that they they need to have the answers to some of those questions, because sometimes they don't think about it. They're just like, I want to I want to sell more. I want to get more customers or whatever it is like, OK, well, how do you you know, what are you willing to do? And I love how you talk about those nuances and sort of building them in because it's it is you can start from point A and you know you want to get to Z. But there's a lot of ways to get there, like losing weight is a great example because you could you could work out more. You could eat less. You could do go on some sort of drug plan. There's all these different things you can do that get you there. And it's really how do you it's answering things like, do you just want it like for weight? Do you want to just get there or do you want to be able to get there in a way that you can maintain that afterwards? Because I know from a gym, I mean, you know, that's it's very different to like hit that target and also to maintain that target. And that works with so many things in life is it's understanding how to get there in a way that is actually answers your goal or your your question as opposed to I just got there and now I just I just can check off something on a box. I think you said something brilliant there about the idea of a developer and let's say the visionary entrepreneur that comes to that developer to create this app. I've done this. I've tried to create an app years ago. And what happens is on one side, the creator has a big mission that they want to accomplish. They can see and feel the picture and the vision that they want to create. On the other side is the developer who is so good at asking questions. It often pisses off the visionary. Right. It's literally like, well, what color does that need to be? And what happens when they click it and where and where does it go to there? And do you want them to be able to add and subtract titles or lines? Do you want them to be able to invite other people to come on? And all these questions get so frustrating for the visionary. And I think what what we're actually accomplishing here today is sort of the terms in which that you can improve this relationship. On the one hand, the person who understands all of the questions needs to be able to try and see the vision of the final product as the person wants it to be. And the person who's the visionary, and this has been my journey over the last five years or so, needs to understand how to more clearly and with patience explain to the finest detail their own vision. Because I think a lot of times it's easy to throw paint on a brush and swipe it in an artistic and beautiful way. But it's very difficult as the artist to describe the characteristics down to the the the the digital level that would be required to give that to somebody and make it into the final product. Does that make sense? Oh, 100 percent. And that's the that's the point. Actually, you just like hit the nail on the head for the whole developer. Or idea is the mindset is that, yeah, you can ask questions all day. But if you don't understand that vision, if you can't put and understand a way that you can sort of feel it, can see it as well. And how you've got to have some of that business knowledge and some of the you know, and know that customer enough that now you can say, oh, I see where you're going. So instead of having to ask things like, you know, what specific color does this need to be and what does this but you need this button and where does the button need to be instead of dragging everything out of them? You can say here, I'm understanding your vision. So I think that this is where we need to go. This is because you know, it's like if you get in a if you get in a plane and you go somewhere, you you as a customer just say, I just I want to get there. I want to I'll go through the air. I want it safe, roughly. And you allow the pilot to do their job and get you there safely. And if you know, you don't have to say the pilot doesn't go to everybody and say, hey, we see this big, massive, nasty cloud ahead and it's going to be really rough flight. We can go around it or we can go through it. What would you think? Yeah, it's not like, you know, like politics is if like if they asked everybody to vote on every decision ever, it's like, no, it's like that's just it's too much. And it's finding that that sort of happy medium where you're you're getting enough information from your customer. And this is regardless of whoever your customer is, regardless of what your your business or service is, is getting enough from them to understand where they're at and what they want. So you can say here, based on my experience and my knowledge, I think this is a solution to work for you. And then you're getting closer to where they are. And there's it's easier to go, OK, are we there yet? Versus just jumping in the car and being like annoying little kids are like, are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? I mean, that's that's beautiful, man. I couldn't agree more. I think I don't think I have anything to add to that, really. I mean, other than that. No, I got nothing to add to that, Rob. Perfectly said. Well, because you set that up so perfectly. So I was just looking at a bow on it for you. And one of the things I think is, oh, I'm sorry. I was just saying, I think visionaries have an incredibly powerful drive to be understood. And what probably needs to happen is they need to have a drive to communicate more clearly. And I think developers probably have a very strong strong drive to understand and to solve problems. But they need to be. Better creative question askers, right? That makes sense. Yeah, it can't be. You can't be robotic about it. It can't be somewhere you just like keep asking the same question, same question, same question, same question. It has to be in the context of what you have already gathered. And so those they have to be molded in a way that now it's like, hey, I sort of know you so I can ask, I guess, like leading questions. Is now these are things where I'm starting to get this picture, but help me refine that vision, because now I've got some of your vision. And that's where you're going to find. I think you find that with most of the great visionaries. Is there somebody with them that was helping, you know, sort of like, you know, ground them a little bit and say, OK, this is how we make this reality. And they understand the vision and the reality enough that they can tie those two together and turn that into something that's that's valuable and that's real. Yeah, I just got off of a phone call literally just now. And we're working through core value work. And I have that team. It's one guy is the visionary and he's a subject matter expert in his field. And one of his core values is big wave surfer. He wants to go on the biggest wave. That's where he's the most relaxed and can execute the best. The other person is the lifeguard. His job is to understand where safety is. It needs to be changed or when the conditions are OK. And his job is to keep that big wave surfer safe. And so this is like a traditional CEO and like COO or implementer relationship. But it's just such a a a good example of how, you know, hey, I'm the visionary architect. OK, well, I'm an engineer. You know, if you've ever seen like a like a like a what do they call those? The. The concept cars, you ever see a concept car? It's like, here's our new concept car for the Toyota Prius. And it's like six hundred thousand dollars if you were to make it. And you could only make 12 of them a year. And then somebody comes in and they go, hey, we need to add door handles and we need to have and we can't have it where the the wheels are wider in the back than they are in the front, because then we can't. You know, they don't fit on the assembly line or whatever. And so because of that, you have these visionary artists and you have these engineers and you have to find a way to communicate with them together. And so that's very much the Steve Jobs, you know, Wozniak relationship. That's very much, you know, you could see that across a lot of, you know, that's I can't think of another example off top my head, but there's quite a few of those out there. So that and that actually is good. That's another little side trip is in your in the coaching and the mentoring. Do you see that exist? And I love that analogy of the surfer and the lifeguard. Do you tend to see that? And if you don't, is it something where do you sometimes guide people and say, hey, or maybe you you fill one of those? Usually, I guess it's going to be the lifeguard role versus a visionary role. But if you see that gap, how do you address that or how do you or how does how does someone do that if they know they have that gap? Well, I'm very fortunate in that I'm a big wave surfer just to carry on the metaphor who was forced to learn how to be a lifeguard through the military and through banking. And so because of that, I can stand there and I can explain to them, hey, man, I want to surf big waves, too. And here's how you do it. You have to actually survive long enough to get to the big waves. You know, and so what typically happens is if somebody doesn't have that, I try to put them in touch in EOS, which is the entrepreneurs operating system that traction describes by Gina Wickman. They talk a lot about implementers. These are the folks that are integrators, sorry integrators. These are basically the CEO. They're the person that understands the vision and understands the SOPs and the machinations that need to happen to make that happen. And so when the bigger your mission is, the bigger your budget is, the more you can actually have that person in house and you can develop that relationship over a long period of time. The smaller you are and the more you're a startup, the more you have to really get good at describing your vision to a third party contractor or something if I'm hiring somebody to develop something right. And so that's why, you know, there's something beautiful about Tesla or Apple where they do everything all unified. Right. There's a there's a real competitive advantage there, even to just the beauty of the product, how much, how easy it is, how seamless it is. That's not my mistake. It's because they're not. I think there's a there's like a meme of engineering a frog five different ways or something. And it's like the I don't exactly remember the different parts, but it's like it looks like Frankenstein, you know, as opposed to just like the elegance of it all kind of flowing together seamlessly because somebody there was the architect and project managed the whole thing. Well, that's expensive in time and money and effort in creative language. Right. But I do agree that it's incredibly the juice is worth the squeeze if the creator has talent and the ability to hand it to an engineer who also has talent. Yeah, and that in itself is a is a risky proposition, but you can see, like, you know, Apple was as a good example for us back in the day. They were everybody hated them, said they it was a huge mistake to keep it all in one piece. And they put together some things that were still, you know, you look at them just from a a problem solving vision, engineering point of view. And they're like, well, they did an excellent job, but they also took a big risk. And they took a big hit because of it until people realized that, hey, this is something that I want. And sometimes it's you put all that risk in and it's people don't want it anyways. And then you're like, OK, well, but they probably wouldn't have wanted it even if it hadn't been engineered as well. So, you know, it's like it's not because you did it this way. I think it's because what you did was not there wasn't the market for it. Yeah. And I would even add that I think there's a case to be made that beauty is the result of good engineering and that thought being executed at a high level. And so it's almost like you can see beauty in things that you may not have otherwise found it to be. And so these, you know, you talk about the original iPhone and the way that people engaged with that as being beauty. But there was something where it just was right. It was just right. You asked it questions and it was correct. How should it feel like this? How should it work like this? How should I use it exactly how I think I should? You know what I mean? And this is something I'm getting chills even saying that out loud. Like, this is something we're at its best. This is why people toil over their missions. This is why people pour themselves out. It's the ones that choose not to sacrifice to meet somebody else in the middle that actually end up being exalted as our heroes. That's yeah. And that's, I think, something we get lost in translation sometimes is because we, you know, we want and especially now it's I hate to say it because it is it does exist a lot in like the coaching and mentoring and self improvement and self help industries where it's, you know, even like the, you know, the four hour work week is not really about a four hour work week. It's about all of this other stuff. And it's really just a title more than anything. And yeah, you can get to that, but it's it all comes back to what is really your focus, what really do you want to do? And it does go back to as we've talked about is finding out what is it you're comfortable with, what do you want to do? Where do you want to go in finding the sort of that happy medium so that you can push yourself, but also that you can maybe adjust your goals so that you are successful getting there and maybe you don't get there this year. Maybe you get there next year or the year after. But it's continuing that forward progress. Yeah, I agree. I just agree. So perfect. I did one I actually was going to ask earlier, but just because it's an interesting one to me is you mentioned in stuff that how you see fitness and health help you to become a better leader and business owner. And how do you I mean, obviously, as you know, when you were running a gym, there's there's some correlations that people say, oh, you're a gym owner. You obviously are in shape. But you're talking about actual, you know, different businesses and things like that. So where do you see the connection, I guess, sort of of of body and business? It's a great question. And I would say we've already been talking about it this whole time. It's everything is everything, Rob. And so it's one of those things where can you really be like if whatever your profession is, it's sort of your idea of expressing yourself as a complete human being. And the reality is that healthy people who get lots of sleep and can move their bodies and work hard in a gym or out of a gym and on a rock wall or whatever, are also showing up as people more confidently and more functionally, and they think more clearly and they have more energy to pursue their desires. Right. And so, you know, for me, I think of my whole life as a three chambered heart. I have my professional life. I have my family and social life, and then I have my self care. And if I borrow blood from any of those different chambers, I'm losing it from somewhere else. And so in my opinion, the only way to expand the volume of blood in that heart is to expand all three over the course of time. And so for me, you know, I I used to think that I was a fitness guy, Rob. And the truth is, I'm a tribe guy. I used to think that the CrossFit gym, the reason I was so in love with it is because I love this methodology. But the truth is that I loved playing football and I loved, you know, being in the military, working with a really hard working group of people that were very tightly knit in a tribe. I love working with entrepreneurs now that are in a tribe. We do a mastermind that's very much centered around collaboration. And so for me, it's less about fitness and it's more about living an expression of a complete person. And so I just don't know any people that I look up to and respect that don't take care of those three areas of the heart. And I think that sometimes we get into these faulty systems. You know, if you can imagine sort of like a faulty system where you're cruising along and then you make a turn and all of a sudden it just turns into this spiral of like a maze where you're stuck. And it's because the system is feeding. It's a it's a bad feedback loop, right? It's a short in the system. And so one of those things is turning off two of those areas of the heart to pursue your business. I can introduce you to some people who have a lot of money and regret it. Most people that have a lot of money might regret it. But the people that I respect and look up to the most are actually at the very, very top of the performers that I know and the very, very bottom of the performers that I know. And it's because they're also healthy. They're also fit. They eat well. They sleep wonderfully. They have loving relationships. They can give an exchange and take in their relationships. And they pursue their their life's work. And I think it's it's a requirement more than anything. So is that sort of the key, then, is it in that work, you know, in those three chambers, is that your is it come back to, hey, you're working towards your goals, your core values. And so you can do that work and not have and put a lot of effort into it and knock it out of the park without draining and pulling from those other chambers. Yeah, what I find is that work will fill the vessel you give it, especially for the folks that I work with, visionary entrepreneurs who have all the energy towards pursuing their goals that they need. I don't have to motivate my people that I work with typically. If I do, you probably should not own a business. If if if you need me to come in and fill you up full of energy or air or whatever, you probably just shouldn't be your own boss. But what I find is, you know, I create an entire sales course this weekend. I created a sales course based on the experience that I've learned in multiple different from multiple different, you know, thought leaders in that space. And what I did was I played with my daughter all day for most of Saturday. And then I ran into the room and I wrote down everything I had been thinking about the whole time. And then the next day on Sunday, I played with my daughter for four or five hours. And then I ran into the room and I recorded it on video. And so it's one of those things where the work was going to fill that vessel. I could have spent both days, 12 hours a day, and come up with probably almost the exact same thing. Or I could think about it a little bit in the back of my mind while I'm on a walk with the dogs or at the grocery store, spending time with my daughter or rolling jiu-jitsu or doing kickboxing or doing CrossFit, any of those things. And then when the time comes, the vessel gets full. And so when I actually schedule my perfect week and I evolve it over time as my life changes. But my perfect week starts with a blank seven day calendar. And I fill it in first with my family time, my time with just me and my wife and my personal care, which is like three times a week at least. I typically do four, four times a week of collective elective suffering, which is getting together in a group and doing something that sucks hard, whether it's jiu-jitsu or rocking or running or cycling or rock climbing. Doesn't matter. And then one solo mission. So that's me on my own, you know, going for a walk with the dogs, going into a float tank, doing a yoga session all by myself or with my dogs and thinking about my place in the universe, my relationships, my problems. And once I've done that, that's sort of the baseline for a healthy human being. Well, now what's left? Let's fill that in with work and food. Right. And that's, that just makes it so much easier because I can tell you right now, I do not accomplish less than I used to. In fact, the efficacy, you know, I used to have a pint glass with the same amount of TNT in it. And now I have a shot glass. That's only TNT, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. And that's, that's a lot of where you find that in some areas, again, where things fill the space that you give them. And if you start with the things that matter, amazingly, the rest of it will, you know, fill out. But if you've already, it's like, when I was saying, like, if you don't put stuff in there, then it'll get filled up by, you know, like work, it will grow to whatever it needs to. But if you've already set your schedule, you've only got so much that you can do. And so it's a, you know, it's just, it's a key way to, to move forward is to set. And I always talk about this, setting your schedules, get something you're comfortable with and then let those, cause life's going to happen anyways. But then you've got these things and then you're in a situation where you're filled and you know what you can jettison and what you cannot. Yeah, I agree. Totally. I would also say it's a good point to, to say two things. One, read the book, essentialism. It's fantastic. And it kind of covers sort of the whole life ethos of doing only those things that are essential to move yourself and the people you care about and your businesses forward. And the second thing is, I think a lot of people have heard of the metaphor of you start with a glass jar and you put large rocks in it and it appears to be full and then you put pebbles in and they fit into the little cracks and it appears to be full again. And then ultimately you put sand in and then finally you pour water in. I think people too often make the big rocks work. And I guess my point would be start the big rocks rocks with what creates a healthy person and then work comes last. And believe it or not, it will still fill up the vessel. Yeah, I love that. Shift that focus a little bit and then you end up with the same thing, but now the things that are the big rocks are the things that bring you more value. Now we have just, this has been awesome. This is time has flown right by. So I don't want, I would be amiss if I did not, because I know everybody listening is like, this guy's awesome. I want to hear more of them. What are the best ways for people to get ahold of you or to reach out for you, whether it's, it's for your podcast or, you know, if they're like, Hey, this is something I think I can really have. Yeah. I love this idea of this mastermind. I think this guy would be a great mentor. How did, how are the best ways to get ahold of you? It's a great question, Rob. Thank you so much. First of all, if you're still listening, it's for a good reason. It's cause you like Rob and the stuff that he's putting out. And so please, please, please first go to the website, go to where you are consuming this, this content, like subscribe and share with somebody else. Rob is putting his heart and soul into this and it really shows. He's an excellent interviewer and I've really enjoyed this conversation. If you still have any energy after that, then you can find me and all of the stuff that we do at spearing clover.com. Um, we're also our platform of choices, Instagram, spear and clover, uh, as well as Jason skeesic on Instagram. I'm also on LinkedIn. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Facebook, all that stuff. Uh, we offer a free test drive of our mastermind to anybody that reaches out to us through the website. Uh, and so that mastermind meets the first and third Fridays of every month. Um, and we do it for 90 minutes. Um, we have a professional expert guest speaker come in and talk about some subject matter expertise, and then we do one hour of small group masterminding where we help peers to peers, help each other solve their problems and work through things that they're dealing with. So that's, that's it. Awesome. That's great. Highly recommend that. Thank you for the, uh, the additional plug there. And, uh, this is, this has been incredibly entertaining. This is what, uh, you know, more than delivered what I expected from. So hopefully we will have some opportunities to catch up again and just, you know, keep this kind of conversation going. Cause this has been a good time. So I want to thank you again for your time and wish you a good rest of the year and a good 2023. Thank you, Rob. I'm honored that you had me on. And I really enjoyed this conversation, man. You're really good at this. Thank you, sir. And there you have it. That wraps up this interview, but we are not done. We got plenty more coming along the way. We may or may not just because we're so far into this season. So many episodes into it. We may just skip right ahead to another season at some point fairly soon. So just in case you're following seasons or anything like that, we won't miss a beat. We're going to continue right going into that next series of interviews. If we do that, just a little heads up, just in case something looks a little awkward or something like that, because we've got plenty to go through. And just like this one, every interview has been great. A lot of great people we've talked to, a lot of great information. I'm learning a lot. I'm hoping you're learning a lot and we're all getting better together. That being said, it's time for you to take your better self and get out in the world and knock some, some tasks down, maybe even connect with a couple of people and get your tribe going and take it all to the next level. But however you do it, you go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. Thank you for listening to building better developers, the developer nor podcast. You can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, anywhere that you can find podcasts. We are there. And remember just a little bit of effort every day ends up adding into great momentum and great success. Please check out school.developineur.com. That is where we are starting to pour a lot of our content. We've taken the lessons, the things that we've learned, all of the things that make you a better developer. And we're putting it there. We have a range of courses from free short courses up to full paid boot camps. All of these include a number of things to help you get better, including templates, quick references, and other things that make us all better developers.