The spirit of the puppy and the military mindset

Welcome to building better developers, the developer podcast, where we work on getting better step by step professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of interviews, but we are off and running with a new interview. In this episode, we're going to speak with Jason Skisic of Spearing Clover. We're going to talk about the spirit of the puppy, among other things. And I think you will find this more than a little bit interesting. You will definitely understand the spirit of the puppy. By the time we get through the first part, as we get into the second part, we'll get a little deeper. We're going to talk about motivation. We're going to talk about drive. We're going to talk about whether you should have a vision or whether you need to worry about culture, whether you need to worry about core concepts and things like that. The drivers for success for yourself. And we're going to wrap all this with a discussion about balance and how to do more with less, how to find the ways to use the important things in your life to sort of drive you to get the other things done. Spoiler alert work probably is not going to be the important one. There are other things you can do that you will find will make your work, your job, and if you are in that entrepreneurial realm, your new business much more effective. He is a coach. He's got a mastermind group, lots of other stuff that we're going to touch on. But rather than continue to spoil everything, let's go ahead and start off that conversation with Jason Skisic. Okay, today we are starting a new discussion. We were talking with Jason Skisic. I'm assuming I'm pronouncing that right. He will correct me in a moment if I'm not. He is a host of the Spearing Clover podcast. It's a weekly one. After this, obviously don't pause this right now. You want to listen to the whole episode, get a good feel for Jason. If you like him, then you can check that out. He's got a great story, a great background. And so I'm going to go ahead and start right in and let you because you do a better job introducing yourself than I do. Tell us a little bit about yourself and we will go from there. First of all, Rob, thank you so much for having me on, man. I'm really excited to be here and I appreciate you lending me your audience today. Yeah, my name is Jason Skisic. I'm the founder of Spearing Clover, which is a podcast. It's a mastermind. It's courses for entrepreneurs. And previous to that, I've been working. I've been a gym owner for 12 and a half years in Chicago. I've been in a commercial banker for a few years before that. I was a soldier in the army before that. So I've had and I was a fiber optic technician somewhere in between. So we've had a broad journey so can speak to a lot of different things today. Yeah, it sounds like it. That's a that's not typically where you go from. You don't go from like, you know, investment baker to a gym owner and things like that. Yeah. So I guess with that, let's start with what got you. What did you do? Go to school and decide to end up in the banking side or is that just something that you sort of fell into as you got out of out of the service or how did you do that? It's funny. I think when I think about it, I've always there's really two core values that make me me. And that's what Spearing Clover kind of came from. The first is spirit of the puppy. People call this ADD. I call it entrepreneurs disease. I call it spirit of the puppy. So spirit of the puppy is I'm high energy. I love trying new things. I love meeting new people. I'm default positive. If I get interested in something, I have boundless energy to pursue it. And then the thing that I got in the army was military mindset. How to focus that right. And so that was discipline, hard work, showing up, never leaving people behind, taking responsibility when there was an opportunity to do that. And so when I got out of the military, I did two things. And unfortunately, one of them was only spirit of the puppy. And one of them was only military mindset. The military mindset in me decided, hey, I'm going to go to school for finance and get an honors degree in finance and become a captain of industry. And certainly that never happened. But I did get a great job as a commercial lender in a very big bank. And at the same time that I started school, I started a CrossFit gym and a dusty fourth floor Timberlost building in a warehouse in Chicago with two military friends of mine. And so a few years in, I realized I'm working on a 50 million dollar deal. I'm working on a 20 million dollar deal. And I'm on top of the world, literally sitting in like a 57th floor downtown Chicago. And all I can think about are my 25 clients at my dusty gym on the fourth floor in this dusty warehouse. And so what just what just occurred to me is my whole life, I've been drawn to these things, these really interesting things that I'm interested in doing and pursuing and trying to make them how I make a living. So when I was a kid, I loved snowboarding. I worked at the snowboarding hill. I loved cars. I worked at the shop. I loved clothes. I worked at the mall. And I wasn't doing that with my professional career. I was pursuing pursuing professionally this thing that I thought I should. While my attention and my my interest and my energy and my love and my passion was all going towards building this small tribe around CrossFit. And once I figured out that that was, you know, the path for me, I dedicated my life to growing that business and that tribe and immediately saw the results. That's a great point to stop there, I guess. Oh, that's that's really fascinating because you that you started as a kid, you know, even when you're young, you were gravitated towards the jobs that fit you. I mean, every I think every as I've got teenagers and I know they want to do things that are fun. You know, they want to work at the places where they're having a good time. And it's the things that they think are fun to do. But I don't think I think most of us, we just take a job. You know, that's as a kid, you just take a job. And that's sort of how you get into it. And then you get into your career before you finally say, oh, wait a minute. Maybe I can try to do something that that I enjoy. Or it sounds like you almost like drifted away from a little bit and had a little reality check kind of thing and say, hey, wait a minute. I'm not liking this. I really want to go pursue this whole different thing. And so I was at some where you just sort of like sort of flip the switch one day. So, you know what? I'm just going to I'm just going to quit and move on to this. Or did you have sort of a transition plan or how did that? How did you move into focusing really on the gym? Yeah. So to that point, there's two parts to that answer. The first part would be I think of myself now as a shepherd of my attention span. So I'm actually guiding my mother, the herd of sheep. That's my attention towards the place they need to go. And if I didn't do that, they just fall off a cliff. Right. I had jobs. I had a few jobs that I didn't mention when I was a kid. And in those jobs, I'm like sleeping in the bathroom or I'm like leaving earlier, not showing. I mean, just like I couldn't make myself. And so I was fortunate enough that that was just not really a possibility. And so cut to the future. Well, now I have been through the military, so I'm not falling asleep and I'm not blowing off my responsibilities, but I'm mediocre. And I don't want to be mediocre. And so as a banker, this was the first time where I was trying at something. And I just it was easy for my my my peers to be better at it. And it wasn't because I couldn't do the math and it wasn't because I couldn't run the models. I was very good at those things, but I just didn't give a shit. If that's OK to say. And and so because of that, it was a circuitous path. I took I took a role as an entrepreneur within my friend's business, a business within a business. And I used that as sort of a stepping stone while we were working on the gym and while we were building it to become a capital business. But once I put my back to the wall and decided that this was the hill that I was going to fight on, that I would be willing to die on. All of the sudden, things start to come into focus. All of the sudden, you know, it took me seven years to break 200 members, Rob. It took me six months to get to 300 members because we treated it like a business. We we got everybody on the team in the same boat, rowing as hard as they could in the same direction. We started to, you know, put a real emphasis on how we go out and acquire new clients and making sure that those folks that we acquired fit our core values and the mission that we were trying to pursue. And so because of that, we were very successful. But yet, to answer your question, it was a circuitous path, but it was definitely one. It was as soon as I tuned my radio into my own passion and decided to follow that was was the the the beginning of that path. Yeah, you know, I think that's a it's amazing how often that is one of like the key turning points to success is when somebody usually the successful people have somewhere in them. You know, they're type A or they're they're driven. Sometimes they didn't even realize it until they focus on something they like. And then suddenly, like, say, everything just sort of comes into focus. And now that energy starts getting all poured into whatever their their chosen path is. Now, did you was this something that you, I guess, developed in yourself, as you say, I love the spirit of the puppy that sounds so much better than ADHD or something. Yeah, because I'm the same way I'm very much always referred to as just squirrel. You know, it's like the dog in up. That's very much, you know, the distracted things that are in there. Was that part of your military training? Did that sort of force you then to to focus? Or were there some other things that you did that you realized, hey, I've got to find ways to or I've I work better when I can actually sort of focus for a bit. So I would say that the way I'm operating now is very much sort of a symphony of harmony that I've written. But when I was in the military, that was not a choice. When I was in the military, that's where I was learning the notes. Right. And so I went to school to be a network engineer, and it took six months to get an associate's degree level engineering course in the military. And we went from midnight to 8 a.m. because they had three different groups going through the same course. Right. And so we literally were taking a class in a little bit of a in electrical engineering from midnight to eight in the morning, which, if you can imagine, was incredibly boring. And then they had like this drill sergeant panther just stalking the room. And so if anybody wasn't paying attention or talking or sleeping, like you were just going to get smoked out in the hallway. Right. And so there was this like real like rubber meeting the road of like, hey, we're not going you're in the crucible, man, you're going to you're either going to come out the other end, a professional who lives up to their responsibilities, who does the things they say they're going to do, who is an expert in their field and can take action quickly and make good decisions quickly. Or you're going to have a terrible, terrible time in the army. And so given those choices, it was a pretty easy decision. Whereas now I have the liberty to have developed a skill set and and had a lot of experience working in first and fitness and now building tribes of entrepreneurs where I get to choose the way that I want to make my living. And so I get to play that much more like in the to the tune of my own harmony, if that makes sense. Yeah. Based on your back, what got you into the military in the first place? What was what made you because I'm assuming that was obviously, you know, you're not, you know, it wasn't like a somewhere you were, you know, forced in or anything. Like there wasn't a draft or anything. So what what made you take that route? You know, I think it was a moment of clarity that I, you know, one of the things that I was per two of the things that I was pursuing was competitive poker and pool. And so I wouldn't go as far as to say that I was a gambling addict, but I was down the rabbit hole of pursuing this passionately and not doing well. And so the future didn't look bright. And so I just I think my mother was advising me at the time, but also myself just realized that, hey, I could see where this is headed and it's not good. And I have all of the aptitude and all of the energy and all of the passion that I could possibly ask for. I just don't have any rails to write to ride this train on. And so I knew that I needed to find a way to really become a man. Rob, I mean, this was, you know, at some point, this is like a traditional rights of passage type of thing where, you know, I had to go through, you know, that that call to call to adventure, I guess, and and and find some discipline. And, you know, it delivered on exactly what I mean. One thing about the military, the marketing is true. It delivers on what it says it's going to. You get to see the world. You become one of the few in the proud, even though I wasn't a Marine. Like there is there is some very real, very human experience and skills that you gain just going through it. Yeah, I think most of us, if you haven't been through it, then you've got a you've got a picture of it. And, you know, sometimes that picture is is way more gloried, horrified than it is. Sometimes it's way worse than it is. But it's always interesting to see when you know what what pulls people into that, what gives them that choice. I mean, sometimes it's like, you know, like almost, I guess, like you have it almost you don't have a choice. You say, you know, I just I need this. We realize that. And I think everybody does get if nothing else, you're going to be in a disciplined, structured environment. And if you're somebody that doesn't needs that, then that that definitely is a huge boon for you, you know, for however long you stay into it. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And that's certainly what I got from it. Now, as you went flashing back forward a little bit, as you started building out your gym and you said you'd started this with a couple of your buddies, how did what was the because you know, you sort of switched from, hey, I've got this day job and now this is my day job. How was that with the team today? What did you guys as a team all sort of shift at the same time? Or how did that the dynamics of the team that you already had? How did that was that impacted when you switched to a focus on the gym? Yeah, that's a great question. So the three of us had a hobby, basically, where we were having this little fun gym on the side and one of us was working and he actually literally we were in the army together. He went to finance school with me and we got the same starting job. So we were both working at the bank. And then the third guy, Dan, was was in charge of like high rises. He had a job doing that. And they both came to me and they were like, hey, man, we've been talking and it's time. We're going to pull the plug on this thing. It's been fun, but we're we're grown ups now. We're 32 or whatever age we were. And we're going to start our lives and we have these women in our lives and one of us may move and all this other stuff. And I just I remember that night very clearly going to sleep, laying in bed, thinking, can I imagine a time tomorrow where this tribe doesn't exist and where it's not what I'm doing and it's not where I'm where I'm taking my career? And I just woke up not thinking that was possible. And so I didn't let it be possible. And so I bought out both of my partners down to 10 percent because they wanted to sentimentally be involved. But I bought them out with money I didn't have. I basically wrote up a document and I was like, look, I will pay you X over X period of time from the cash flow of the business. If I fail at it, you know, I'm not going to go into bankruptcy for you. But and they agreed we were still brothers to this day. But it was just one of those things where it was like, hey, I'd like to continue to do this and I'm willing to buy your portions of it. And that was the sort of me pushing my chips into the center and saying like, hey, I'm committed. We're here. We're going to make this thing a real business. And fortunately, I had just pretty recently been trained as, you know, in one of the best financial analyst programs in the world. So so as a credit analyst, it made it pretty easy to understand the the workings of the business, to understand where the shortcomings were. I started to invest in myself in masterminds and professional organizations with money that I didn't have. I invested in a twelve thousand dollar program when I was making nine thousand dollars of revenue per month and regularly having to put money in. And we just hit the cover off the ball. The stakes were real. The execution was rigorous and we we just would not accept failure as an option. And so we went we sought out the best advice we could find and we synthesized that into actions. And very, very quickly, the market responded. People were attracted to what we were doing. The team was excited about it. You know, people were the clients that already existed were excited to see a new equipment. You know, all of the things kind of came together. And and it was really based on the decision of just not just burning the boats, man, and not and not seeing any other path but forward. Now, did you as part of this, did you sort of go through like a rebranding and a relaunching of the business or did you really just grow off of what was already there? We grew off of what was there. And I think the there was there was a lot of folks in the same organization that I was in, which is called Jim Launch, that did OK, but they didn't quite do as well as us. And I think it was because one thing that's always been part of me is, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a visionary. So when I learn something, I have to pass it through my lens. And so as I was learning and bringing in these these very different radical changes to the business, I always passed it through the lens of what had set up the community and the tribe in the first place. And so because of that, I was always very sensitive to the stakeholders that already existed. But we did build it on top of what we had already had. And we had a good reputation as people who were who say who they said they were and people that you could come to and get a great experience from. And there was a great community already starting. And so there was definitely bumps in the road and there was definitely some fenderbenders along the way. But we you know, I always tried to pass the strategy and the tactics through my lens of like, this is me protecting the tribe, because that was the most important part. Which in this one is interesting. So you guys had a tribe before you made this shift. Was there how did how did the basically the tribe respond as you said, hey, these two guys are stepping away and I'm I'm doubling down and getting into it. Was there did they sort of like say, oh, wow, these these guys really own it. And, you know, did it sort of grow in their strength and their loyalty? Or was there some, hey, I really like this guy over here and now this guy. Maybe I don't like Jason as much. Yeah, like that. How did that how was that especially that process of going through it? That's a really good question, Robin. This is the first time I've really given it much thought. But what I would answer to that is we were so we were running such a poor business that the only people that stuck around were like pure avatars. They're like the person we were best at speaking to. And so, to be honest with you, and I just pulled this document up to share it with somebody last night, I have six avatars that were from my gym from years ago. We did the avatar work and I can actually introduce you to the people that those six people are kind of based on. And so it's one of those things where, yeah, we had 93 members when we really turned the thing around and ended up at somewhere in the five hundreds. But those 93 members were the pure avatar. And so when we were adding, it was so easy to go like, well, how should we write an ad? Well, let's look at who's in the room. You know, so so like, you know, it's one of those things it's like I was fishing with my hand, you know, out of a boat and once in a while would catch a fish. And then when I built a net, I was like, OK, what are the attributes of the fish? What are the attributes of how they swim? Where do they gather? You know, what do they like? What type of food do they like? When do they sleep? When are they hunting? You know, I knew so much more about them just by looking at the 93 people in the room and then using these tactics and strategies that I was paying to learn. Wow, you guys, you're like you're almost like your own beta program, basically. Yeah, all you got to do if you want to be successful in the CrossFit space, just run a not profitable gym for seven years and just like pour money and time and your heart into it and then decide to start the business. I think you could write a book on that is start with complete and utter failure. And whoever is still around, those are the people that you want to like. That's your audience. And just I love that. I love that. Don't project anything. Just make it like real, very real to them. Yeah, yeah, that's great. One of the things that you're sort of moving through all of this and you touched on a little bit. Was the idea of of core values and having and particularly and you do mention that a lot as you with your with the spear and clover stuff and things like that, how a lot of the the key to success, the key to happiness is it all gets back to having those core values. So I guess it's a combo is how do you sort of describe what a core value is? And then how does somebody how does one go about deciding what they're or finding what their core values are? Yeah, that's a great question, Rob. So every time I meet an entrepreneur, especially professionally, I typically ask them that question. What do you do? You have your core values. Have you done that work? And usually I get an answer like this. Yeah, of course we did. You know, somebody told us that when we file our LLC, we should have a mission statement of core values. So what did we do? We we pulled up the Apple website and we pulled up the Google website and we pulled up the McDonald's website and we put we pulled the core values and we pulled the core values of the core tenants off of those websites and then we slid them into a drawer, a desk in a drawer. And we haven't looked at them since. And I just think this is why people I think maybe core values have been misunderstood and been given a bad name. So in my mind, and somebody was gracious enough to give me this advice years ago. Shout out to Martin Rawls me in. And it has changed my life completely because we did that. We did that in the very beginning. Our core values are never quit and whatever. Your core values are the ember that makes you who you are. It's the ember that burns in your chest that is there, whether or not you choose to define what it is. It is the thing that makes it is the are the things that make you who you are in a successful way or in a not successful way. And so, for example, when we think about, you know, who I want to be. Well, I would love to be this lion out there leading a pack and all these other metaphors, but I'm not. I'm a puppy man. I can't help it. That's who I am. That's who I showed up as. That's what makes me good in whatever sense that I'm good at things. The military mindset. Same thing. I would love to tell you that I'm Jaco Willink and I get up at four thirty in the morning every day. Not true. Doesn't happen. You know, and so my core values are not decided on. They're revealed. And so the process that I take people through, if they go through one of my courses, that's about that, is we start to look at who we are, not just from ourselves and our perspective, but we ask our loved ones. We ask people that know us professionally. What do you think of when you think of me? How do I work? How do I communicate with people? How do I show up? What do you think motivates me to keep moving forward? And when we start to winnow away at that, we really start to reveal very powerful, meaningful attributes that actually exist in us. And we couldn't turn off if we tried. And so what I did was once I did that core value work, I had a five sided puzzle piece that I could hold up to the world and know just know whether or not it would be a good fit for me. And so the example, as you test that, you look in the past, you say, think about your least favorite clients or your most favorite clients. The people where you thought it was going to be a great fit and you just for some reason, you couldn't figure it out in your button heads. What is the difference there? Well, as soon as I had those five core values, I could hold it up and I could go, oh, I get it. He was spirit of the puppy, so I liked him, but he had no military mindset. So he never did the stuff I asked him to do, and he didn't show up on time and whatever else. Or, oh, you know, this person came in and was great, but they weren't tribal. They didn't connect with the group. They didn't, you know, start to walk the walk and actually drink the Kool-Aid that we were trying to give them, you know. And so with those core values looking backwards, I tested it so many times and it was it was verifiable. So now I have these core values looking forwards and I've made so much easier and better decisions ever since. Now, do you find that it's and particularly since you're in your mentoring and coaching and things like that, is it? Is it even possible, I guess, for somebody to run a business that has core values that are not the same as there? I mean, maybe if they're, you know, opposed, I know it's going to be very difficult. But, you know, sometimes people get into things and say, well, this is where I think the business needs to go. But I'm a little different from this. And so how do you know if somebody runs into that, what's how do you sort of coach or mentor through those situations? Really good question, dude, you're good, man. All right. So first of all, I teach two paths. I teach core values and I teach core tenants. And so depending on the type of organization you run, would depend on whether you should have core tenants, core values or even potentially both depending. If you are the flame at the center of a tribe, if you're Joe Rogan, if you're me, if you're somebody that runs a gym, if you're a chiropractor or a PT or something and and you're the person that people are coming for, whether it's on fulfillment or just to be around you. Core values, 100 percent, because you can't help it. If your core values are wrong, Rob, on paper, they're still right in the way you behave. So you're running your business with core values, whether you choose to know what they are or not. Right. It's really whether you can make the decisions better or not. If you run an organization that's a real estate developer or a stock investment portfolio, it can very much be core tenants. This is much more of an of action phrases. This is how we deliver for our clients. And so, you know, things like the customer is always right, is like a classic core tenant or, you know, tribe before tribe before money or what, you know, truth before tribe or any of these types of active things. These action phrases are tenants. And so if you're going to run a very large company, I recommend typically using core tenants. If you're going to run a company that's based on selling a product, I recommend core tenants unless it's a lifestyle brand. Right. A great example would be Liquid Death. Liquid Death is core values through and through. If you're familiar with it, it's a water company that they market like a hardcore craft beer company that's like, you know, heavy metal inspired. And it's it's it's kind of a joke, but it's all centered around somebody's obvious, you know, core values that make them so successful. Well, that makes sense. And that's that was always what I thought was part of it, is that you've got to you've got to find that balance between. And again, it's that comfort of can I deliver on those tenants, even if my values are not, you know, not 100 percent in line, because there is that, you know, so that personal life versus that professional life, there are things where. And then definitely you mentioned where you are the core. You know, if like if Oprah was different from what her values are or what her stated values are, it doesn't matter because everybody knows who she is. So it's you know, things like that. There's just certain people, particularly if you just if you're known by one name, then you're probably one of those. You are the brand and your values are what the only way you're going to you're going to run into problems. If you think you have different core values, as you said, you've got that puzzle piece that you're holding up to map everything. You're basically giving yourself the wrong puzzle piece if you've got those wrong core values. You're dead on about that. And I would say that you just I really like you, Rob. I don't know if you follow MMA, but there's there's two fighters that come to mind. Connor McGregor is boisterous, spends money, talks trash to people, and people love him for that. John Jones used to have this image of like, I'm a martial artist and I'm a peaceful warrior and all this other stuff. And then we find out later that he's lying. Or Tiger Woods would be another example where once we as the population that knows a public figure, we recognize what we think their core values are and will kind of accept you as long as you live to those. But as soon as you step outside of that and we're like, no, you're full of crap. Now we don't like it. So you can think of all sorts of bad boys or, you know, people that are fire brands that have tons of success. It's the people who claim to be something they're not where the population goes. Now we reject that. That's the thing we won't abide. Yeah, and that's it. Yeah, that's really interesting because there are a lot of people that are in the public light, especially in the last few years that have fallen from grace that were they created a persona that they definitely can't do. But then you have some people like Michael Jordan has been one that has been a well-known name and has had a positive, you know, public persona forever. And a lot of it is, is he just has like he's got this level of this is what I am to everybody and he protects that brand. And you find out that the people that have that and even the organizations that have that, there are certain organizations that you know, that if you somehow use their likeness or put them in a situation that would reflect badly on, they will come after you and say, hey, no, not cool. We're not going to allow that. You know, and you saw one the other day that I guess Justin Bieber, I think they had a picture of him and some ad and his people say, hey, that's they just made that happen. That is not me. So that's not my brand. I don't want to have that. That's not my core values. I don't want to be associated with it. Yeah, that's that's spot on. I couldn't agree more. And that is where we will pause this part of the interview. But don't worry, we're not done coming back next episode. We will wrap it up. It will be another fun filled buckle yourself in kind of conversation. We're going to get into a lot of things that are the deeper side, the motivators of what we discussed in this episode. Now, at least you understand things like that military mindset and the spirit of the puppy. And I do like it because, boy, it just seems to describe very well that kind of an approach, that kind of a view of life. And you're going to get some other ones like that sort of maybe not archetypes, but things along that lines that are different personalities and positions and roles and responsibilities kind of thing that are generic, not things like you are a manager or you are, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever the title is. This is more about your your personality, what you do, what you do well. And so we've got plenty of good stuff to look forward to in the next episode. But I'm going to cut you loose for now. So go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week. And we will talk to you next time. Thank you for listening to Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Noor podcast. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, anywhere that you can find podcasts. We are there. And remember, just a little bit of effort every day ends up adding into great momentum and great success. Please check out school.developa-noor.com. That is where we are starting to pour a lot of our content. We've taken the lessons, the things that we've learned, all of the things that make you a better developer, and we're putting it there. We have a range of courses from free short courses up to full paid boot camps. All of these include a number of things to help you get better, including templates, quick references and other things that make us all better developers.