Building Better Developers

Welcome to Building Better Developers, the Developer podcast, where we work on getting better step by step professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of interviews. We are continuing our interview with Adrian Johnston, who does basically PowerPoint presentations and consults, builds the best kind of presentations you're going to get. And it's I always use PowerPoint because it's that kind of a thing. But there's also other tools out there, obviously, as well. We've talked a lot about how her designer roots are part of doing this. And hopefully, even if you're not a designer, you can pick up some of these ideas and some of the things that she does, sort of the thought processes behind some of what she's been doing so that maybe you can help yourself a little bit more target your presentations, your demos and things of that nature. But also maybe an opportunity for you to say, you know what, I need somebody like her to help me out to get my presentations brought up to that next level. Let's go ahead and jump back into our conversation with Adrian. And that leads to the next question is that you were, pardon the phrase, I guess, but working your butt off for the first several years there. 80 hours a week is not something to just brush off. And doing that and building that out, how much of the benefit you have now of being able to work not works 80 hours a week. How much of that is a shift in your billing rate and maybe shooting for higher customers and how much of that, and this you may not even know, but just sort of even a rough idea, how much of that comes from, hey, you've built this now, this foundation of stuff that either you can start with that so you're not starting from scratch, or at least mentally, you've got maybe a better vision of what you're building before you hit the ground running than you did when you first started out. Oh, yeah, it's definitely both of those. You just don't know what you don't know. And I mean, every day you pick up some new thing. It's amazing, right? Like the PowerPoint's actually a really robust tool that we use such a small percentage of. And most clients use such a small percentage of it. But I just a few months ago just found some new thing you can do. And to kind of force some things to work the way you want from a template perspective, which is I would not call it best practice because you could definitely break it. But it's very neat. Anyway, long story short, like there's still things that I'm learning now, right? They're like, my business will be more efficient next year. So I think that's a part of it. But obviously, you know, when I was just starting out, I definitely wasn't as fast, especially in those early days when I was doing all the things instead of really focused just on presentations. Once I started to dial that in, that started to get faster. And I do track like I average four slides an hour. And so I know roughly how long it's going to take me to get things done. And obviously, there can be a slide that could take four hours. But on average, like you kind of know how well you're how quickly you'll be able to get through content just by looking at it, kind of have an intrinsic sense. I want you to go ahead. I was just going to say, yes, I think that that's part of the pickup. But my rate is twice what it was, you know, when I started out, too. So that's a huge lift as well. So it's definitely multifaceted. Yeah, and that that actually brings up a good point is in your specific instance. So now you know, you know better what your average is. Do you know, do you have any sense for whether you're and I don't know if you do fixed beds or how you did it, but is your ability to estimate and to be essentially more correct in your estimations of how long it's going to take you to knock something out and get it complete? Has that been something that's benefited you moving forward and allowed you maybe to to grow or expand or also to control not doing those 80 hour weeks as much? Yeah, I would say the latter. So my challenge, even in the corporate world, was I'm a brute force kind of person. Like the more elbow grease and effort I can put into something, the better I think it's going to turn out. That has actually been a challenge for me, working for myself of how do I fill that time and not beat myself up or feel lazy or like I'm not hardworking enough because it was such a huge part of my identity was to be the hard worker. And that's why I've really started to put more focus on kind of the strategic aspects. And but also what I want my life to be, because I'll work hard like that. And if I am not paying attention and kind of setting my own boundaries and holding myself accountable to those, I'll just start working all the time because it's it's easy. It comes naturally to me. But I do get burnout and I do find that during those times, I do struggle more with creativity and things like that because I don't have the time away in order to kind of let my brain rest. So for me, yeah, it's been really important to put those boundaries in place and make sure that I am stepping away and giving myself time in order to enjoy that. So that's a good point is being a really a creative type role like you have. I don't know if people think about it that way, but it really is. There's very a lot. There's very a large amount of the creative side that goes into those. How do you how do you sort of maybe adjust for or watch out for burnout? And then maybe some tools you have when you when you feel like you've gotten to that point, maybe some tools that you've given yourself to be able to work through that or to to adjust and be able to like if you have to just sometimes just walk away to do so, but then still maintain your schedule and all your deadlines and things of that nature. Yeah, so the biggest thing for me has been, you know, I used to give people shorter turnaround times because I thought that would have meant for a better client experience. And in some cases, that's true, but it really just created a lot of stress for me, because then when there are fire drills and things of that nature and every client has them, I mean, I think avoiding them is unrealistic, but trying to minimize them is not. So I tell all my clients now to expect a five day turnaround on all projects. I do have a rush fee. I'm not so great at enforcing it, unfortunately, but I have found by setting that expectation and clients knowing there's a rush fee, it helps them prioritize how important is it that we get this in two days? Because I'm sure you've seen that we've all seen it. Oh, we have this thing and we needed it yesterday. And then somehow this project that you thought, oh, can I spend three days on and just knock it out is like going on six months later because it really wasn't that time sensitive. So building in that time allows me then the flexibility to say, hey, I just I can't do it today. I need to sign off early or I don't have to have anything done today. Like today's a day like I don't. They've got two things I've got to get out today. And so if I want to sign off early today, I can. But last week, I was in the middle of an event and that just wasn't an option. You just had to double down and get it done. And so I think that, you know, for the most part, the challenge I always had in corporate was I just I just kept going and pushing and pushing and pushing. And here I I just tell myself, you're the you're the rate limiting step. You are the problem if there is one. And so there's nobody else to blame. There's no other person to be accountable to. It's it's me and I control all the outcomes. And so if I want something different, I have to be the one that. That's enforcing that. And I know it's a challenge of mine, I will forever drop those boundaries. I am a helper. So the client's like, oh, we really need this in two days. I will always try to do it. And so. A lot of times, if it's a client where it's become a bad habit, because I've I've enabled it, it's no fault of theirs. And we just kind of have to push back and say, hey, I'm going to take care of this thing, but we really need to get back to our five days or or whatever. Yeah, I think knowing yourself in your business is so huge, trying to stop yourself from making the mistakes you are inclined to make very naturally. Well, and I think being running a business highlights those things, too. For example, that that whole idea of, you know, hey, you can sure will allow you to put a rush on it, but it's going to be it's going to cost you extra and then you never really enforce that. But it does. I mean, it is something that just having that out there, like you said, it's I think it just it puts that in their mind that, hey, this is something special or this is extra. And so, you know, hopefully they don't abuse it. Sometimes they do. But then it gives you a safety net. And I think I think that particularly as an introvert, because you don't want to spend a lot of time talking to people as going through sales and stuff like that, I find that it's just a lot easier to have that kind of a tool to just point to that and say, hey, look, this is the deal. This is the agreement I gave you a freebie. I'm going to have to start charging you or, you know, hey, maybe these things aren't that important. And, you know, they can go back to your your normal schedule. Now, with that, actually, just another interesting one from your your helper side, if you typically you said you typically have like a five day turnaround, what happens if you get it done early? Do you still just wait till five days and just turn it around and keep that schedule or do you because you want to be a helper, get that to them early? Oh, my gosh, I love that you asked that question. It will depend. It will depend. But for the most part, I'll actually keep it till the five days. So if they needed it earlier, I have a reason to believe they needed it earlier, then I will deliver it early. But if there's no reason to believe that, I'll hold it because that gives me the ability to the second you give someone something, then you're going to get feedback sooner. And the whole thing kind of keeps moving forward faster. But it actually allows you to kind of throttle the work. And so if somebody else needs something, it allows me to fit that in. And the thing about presentations that I find is very different, maybe from and maybe it's not that different. It feels different. A lot of people think, oh, it's just a PowerPoint. I can do it myself. And three days before, they realized that what they have done is a travesty and they're not proud to stand up in front of a roomful of people and give their presentation. And so they go seeking help. And even clients, my existing clients, they still do this. Oh, I can just take what I have and repurpose it and make it work. And without a design background, you don't know what you're doing. You can go find all the templates and do all the things. But you still don't really know how to use them and make them work for you. So I find that presentations can be very quick turnaround projects. So it's not uncommon to have those rush jobs. And so by holding that, I effectively am kind of controlling and throttling the pace. But yeah, I wouldn't do that if it was going to be a detriment to the client. Yeah, that's a I ask that because I have that is something I've struggled with at times because I'm the same way I want to, I want to get it done. I want to I want to under promise and over deliver. So I, you know, if I'm going to take five days, then I get it done in four. I'm like, hey, you can have it back and forth. But then that that's exactly what happens is in it. You know, I get it to him a day earlier. I get feedback a little earlier. And then now it also sometimes, depending on how you do it, sometimes it sort of sets an expectation that the next time, well, he said five days, but it's going to be four. And then the next thing you know, just being helpful is actually sort of hurt the process. And and sometimes it's nice to just have that, particularly for something like that. You know, when you're building a presentation, it's nice to have that extra day or two of like bacon time that you can say, OK, I did that. You put it away. But then, you know, it may curry like, oh, you know, I'd like to tweak this a little bit. I'd like to do that a little bit differently. So it does give you a little more time for that art to the art side of it, I guess, to fully blossom and to make sure that you've you've given enough time. You haven't felt like you've rushed anything or anything like that or that you've pushed based on pressure and instead you've you've given that process enough time to give it the respect it needs. 100 percent. I had a client that wanted kind of a creative sample and they wanted it quickly, of course. And so I did it. And when we had a meeting to talk about it and I opened the file up, things weren't aligned properly. And I immediately saw it right. But I didn't see it that night when I was rushing to get it out to them. And, you know, it's just there. The devil's in the details. And you can't see it when you've just been in it like that. You have to have the time to walk away and come back with fresh eyes. I'm sure it's the exact same in your space. The thing is, you're just like, oh, I can't believe I missed that. That's huge. Yeah, that's very much that's. And I I do it for presentations, stuff like that in particular, because they are a shorter period time period, but definitely with, you know, building out websites or or applications, things like that, it is there's just so many times where it's been useful to finish it or, in quotes, finish it, we're done and then come back to it. You know, spend a little time and then come back to it later, particularly like in your situation, if you're going to go put it in front of the customer or something like that, I may put something together and then give it a day or two and then come back closer to the presentation time and walk through it again. And I said, you sort of have you get to refresh your vision a little bit. You may remind yourself a little bit about what you did. And then you're looking at it saying, oh, you know, I miss this or I forgot to do that or this thing doesn't look quite right now. It's just like a it's just a good extra quality check, basically, to give it some time to do that and give yourself time to, like you said, to walk away, because when you're in it, it's really hard when you're deep into it to to give it that fresh look, because you've got you've already conditioned yourself to where you're at right then as you're as you're building it out. Absolutely. I want to step back a little bit, because you said you dealt with some startups and things like that. So you've you had to wear a lot of multiple hats. How much of that experience, that broad experience has been something that's carried you forward, particularly because although you're you have a niche of a skill of building presentations, the actual applying of that is actually still pretty broad because you're doing it for CEOs, CFOs, for products, for sales, for marketing, for HR, for all of these different business areas. And so maybe I don't know, maybe you had a different background, but how did that maybe that in particular help inform you and help you do this job better because you had seen some of those things in the past? Oh, my gosh. Speaking of multifaceted, again, there's something else where, you know, I saw I was in marketing and operations roles. And so like at my last job, I was doing the business insurance and running payroll and I did all the things. Office management, I mean, it all kind of fell under my purview. And so I think the first benefit to that for me was not being afraid of all those things I didn't know about running a business, because I was like, well, I know how to run a business. Right. What I was doing was much bigger scale than what I do now. You're like, payroll for one is easy. You just set that on autopilot. There's nothing. So that wasn't like I think for a lot of people that, well, I'd have to form a business and I need to get an EIN. And I, you know, there are I don't know anything about taxes. Those things weren't concerning to me because I knew I could figure out what I didn't know. And so I would say that was like the first big hurdle to starting my own business and doing my own thing. And then next on the business side of it, right, was the approach of like. I knew what was broken in my business, and I don't know that a lot of people would be able to look at their business and say, I don't know what's not working. But I knew I was working too much. And that was a function of trying to do too many different things. I hadn't streamlined a process. There was no authority, so there weren't higher rates. It was all tethered together. But I'll say even I think, you know, something I did have to overcome in spite of that was that the traditional kind of sales and marketing techniques, you know, going out and finding new business and being an extrovert, that didn't really that's not really the way you have to do it. And I think that I missed that when I was in those environments. I, you know, what I saw was what I assumed I would have to do. So that was maybe an obstacle to overcome. And then lastly, as it relates to, you know, all the clients I work with now and help, it's amazing to me. So I majored in chemistry in undergrad. So I think of myself as a very analytical person and I really struggled to identify as a creative, which is so funny. But I have a client today who I had just had to say, I understand I have a bachelor's degree in this, but I don't know what you're talking about. But they love generally that I have at least a sense, right, more than an average designer would about their chemical processes and all of everything that's happening there. And so we can get on a call and they can explain something to me and I can generally follow it pretty decently. Certainly not to the level these PhDs know it, but I can get there enough to do the job that they need me to do. I've worked for financial services and VC firms. And so having that background and understanding, you know, how are we presenting things to investors? You have to make sure it's very clear. You know, you've got to make sure you're leaving room for all the disclosures. It's its own beast. And so it's interesting that it's kind of in many ways, what I felt like was a hodgepodge of a background. Really all kind of comes full circle enables you to do a better job and to kind of pull all that information and the little bits you learn to create value for other people who, you know, in the right situation, the right people appreciate that. Oh, very much so. And it's, it doesn't, it gives me that comfort to be able to talk about it and have you, you know, essentially not an agreement as opposed to just look like they've just deer in the headlights kind of thing with it. And I know particularly when you get into a technical type discussions and, and specialists of various types, you know, whether it's science or math or finance or you pick your industry, there's, you know, all of us have a certain level of, okay, there's only, there's so much we know. And once you get to a certain point, your eyes glaze over. And when they're having those conversations, I realize your eyes have glazed over. It's tough. And it's, it's, uh, there's like a, it's comforting to be able to do that and not have people's eyes glaze over when they look at it and they're like, Oh, you actually understand this and it allows them to feel more comfortable about going into detail about it and they provide, which I assume is some of the details that are helpful to you to build them a good presentation. Absolutely. Yeah. A two-parter as we're sort of wrapping up is, uh, sort of like a, you know, good and bad is looking back. What is maybe one thing that you, you would do different if you went back and did it again, and then what's something that you, you look at it, you're like, I nailed it. This was, I'm so glad I did this. This was the right decision, the right investment, the right thing to do at that time. Uh, what would I do? And, um, if I had to do something differently, um, you know, I, I knew I was in the wrong job and I wanted to be honest about that it's complicated, but my network is a small network and I knew it would get around if I was looking for a job and so I turned in my notice and ended up being a four month notice, so it was a nice long runway to figure something else out. Um, I, if I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't have given my notice and I would have side hustled. I think it would have been less stressful in many ways to trial it all out without the pressure of, I need this to actually be able to pay our bills. Um, and it wasn't that desperate. I was actually really fortunate in that we could afford everything off my husband's salary and so I did have some flexibility, but it's still just, you know, you still want to be contributing. And so, um, that created additional stress for me, which maybe I would have given to myself anyway, knowing me, but, um, and then the thing that I just, I nailed every time I figured out the SEO part, which was part luck, part strategy, part, just putting it all together. Um, but I figured it out and executed and it worked and it's, it's been a game changer for my business and it still is. Um, I get five or six leads a week. Um, some big names, some small, some people that are, you know, college kids with a budget of $20 and some executives who, you know, want the best of the best, um, and so it's a really, it's been a huge game changer for me, especially as an introvert. I just can't fathom, like I don't enjoy social media. I can't fathom how I would have gotten business in a way that felt natural and comfortable and consistent for me without it. And so I always say to people, like, if you're an introvert or there's something like you feel like this is a roadblock is just trying to find a way to get around it. There's so much kind of conventional wisdom about how to build a business, how you're supposed to do things, but there are a lot of ways that, um, aren't as conventional that may work better for you and may actually be like the solution to your problem that actually like lets you look back in five years and go, wow, I did that thing and I can't imagine my life if I hadn't done that thing. Yeah. And that's a, it's like you said, it didn't happen overnight. It was, it took you a while, it took you some, you know, some effort. And that may be where that analytical side sort of helped out as, as well. But then it's, it was a good investment. And then you've, you know, you have definitely, uh, it has paid off and yeah, it's interesting the side hustle approach because I've, I've talked to people and heard of people that have, they, they attribute their success to they, you know, they got kicked off the cliff and they had to learn how to fly. And so they were, they're in a situation where they were desperate to find a way to get revenue and that was what, you know, they, they were 110% in and that was what made it. And then there's people like myself. I loved the fact that I was actually, I was able to side hustle for quite a while and do a, take a no risk sort of like you did, as you mentioned, sort of like a no risk approach where I could, I could go try some stuff out. And if it didn't work, then it's like, okay, it didn't work. I can make some adjustments. It gave me the, a lot more bandwidth to fail without stress. So I could try some things out, figure out where it worked for me until I got to the point where it's like, Hey, this side hustle is bigger than my day job. It's time to, you know, it's time to take that step and move on. Absolutely. And I just, it's so much easier to say, Oh, I would have, yeah, I think it would be, it would have been an interesting experiment though, right? Like I wasn't happy in my job and that was draining. So at the end of the day, do you really have the, the motivation to do something else and try and figure it out? But I think at some point the pain becomes high enough that you do. And I think I was there. I just didn't know kind of, I didn't perceive it to be an option for me. And I, you know, I think side hustle culture has definitely increased a lot in the last five years. Um, so knowing what I know now, it's what I would do. Well, good. I mean, that makes sense. If I knew then what I know now, we all have that, but yeah, there's some things that we would have done the same and some things we look back and said, yeah, I would have done that a little differently and maybe that would have, would have helped. And it, I do agree. There's sometimes you're so drained at the end of your, your regular day, your day job that it's just like, I don't have time. I don't have the energy for a side hustle, but then, yeah, sometimes that's like, that's the thing that's your, you know, your ice cream at the end of the day as you get done and you're like, Oh, I get to actually go do something that, that doesn't drain me. And it, sometimes that's the motivation to move on to something else and say, wow, I'm spending way too much time in my day being drained when I could go do this other thing. And, uh, in some cases, you know, it's the kind of stuff where you say, I would take a pay cut and go do this other thing. Cause at least I'm enjoying it versus just being drained at the end of the day. It's like, you know, the, the stuff that I get for that pain that I go through the day is not worth it. Right. And I think that that, that kind of pain, when you're finding that angst, something's broken somewhere at your job, something's not the right fit. It's, it's your body's way of trying to tell you and probably your minds too, that something's not working right. And I, we just, we kind of suffer through it sometimes cause trying to figure out what's broken is hard trying to think about like, it's also taxing to go think about interviewing or finding another job or starting as like, it's all stressful. So it's yeah, that pain has to get great enough that you're willing to, to take on some new pain to get rid of that pain. Exactly. And there's always a little bit of risk involved. So what would be, now I know everybody listening is like, Oh man, I've got three presentations. I got to do this next month. And I now know somebody I can go reach out to have, have helped me out with those. What's the best way for them to, uh, for people to get ahold of you if they've got any questions or, or want to reach out to you either professionally or anything else like that. Yeah. Um, you're welcome. My website is adrianjonston.com. Um, and you're welcome to reach out. I, I'm much better over email than social media. I know it's terrible. Um, but I'm also on LinkedIn, always happy to chat. Um, just a little slower on that than I am with email. Okay. Well good. Oh, I want to, uh, I definitely want to thank you for your time. I think we've, uh, definitely hit the end of it here. Uh, really enjoyed having you, having you on and have a discussion here. I think this, as I said, like started out with a great introduction and there was just, I had just bullet point after bullet point of, Oh, hey, here's something to talk about. Here's something to talk about. So it turned into great and you're, yeah. Introvert or not. Yeah. You obviously have had no problem talking through this and, uh, had some great things that you've brought up along the way. That's some good insights. So I hope people were, we're following along and taking notes as they went. Uh, so, uh, just again, I want to thank you for your time and, uh, hope you wish you having a good rest of your day. Thank you Rob so much. I really appreciate your time. And you've been such a thoughtful interviewer. These are great questions. It's really got me thinking differently about my business too. Oh, good. Hey, we do what we can. And that will wrap it up. I hope this is useful to you in particular. I found it was it really more in the first episode where she talked about the, uh, the experience with Upwork. We talked about that a little bit because we haven't talked about that really much in the podcast that I remember. I mean, we've probably talked about at some point because we've been around for a while. However, it is something that I've used, a big fan of it. It works pretty darn good as she said, and I think she gave a really good, uh, stepping stone essentially approach to doing that, to building a business, whether it's through them or one of the other sites that's out there, like a Fiverr or something like that. But it's a way for you to, you know, dip a toe in, get going. And then of course, in this episode, I think there's a lot that we discussed about sort of building your business to provide you more free time in the long run, to not allow it to just like suck you into it and instead to allow it to, you know, put you in a position where you can have a better life, live a more full life. And so before we drain your life out of today, go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. Thank you for listening to building better developers, the developer nor podcast. You can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, anywhere that you can find podcasts. We are there. And remember, just a little bit of effort every day ends up adding into great momentum and great success. Please check out school.development or.com. That is where we are starting to pour a lot of our content. We've taken the lessons, the things that we've learned, all of the things that make you a better developer. And we're putting it there. We have a range of courses from free short courses up to full paid boot camps. All of these include a number of things to help you get better, including templates, quick references, and other things that you can use to manage your development efforts.