Courses and memberships for monetizing knowledge

Welcome to building better developers, the developer podcast where we work on getting better step by step professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our series of interviews in this episode. We start a new one. We're speaking with Kyler Nixon and we're going to be talking about courses and lessons and communities and memberships. And his focus is helping people, helping organizations take it to the next level. But first, before we get too far into the take it to the next level part, we're going to talk in part one about how do you get started? What are some things you should be looking for? What are some things you should be putting in place to get yourself started if you want to go do a course? And what is involved in that? What kind of tasks, what kinds of things, what kinds of content, what kinds of marketing are we going to need to think about if we're going to do that? Now this is very near and dear to my heart because we have started just this year, we've started school.developer.com. We're going down that path. We're taking content and we're converting it over to monetize it. And also, a lot of cases like the free classes to just make it easier for people to get to it, which is some of the conversation that we have here. So you can see a little bit maybe behind the curtains some of the things that we have been thinking about, some of the things that we've looked at, some of the things we're planning and also see how you can take the same kinds of ideas and whatever your content is, whatever your expertise is, turn that into a course and maybe get yourself a little side hustle going. That's enough for me. Let's go talk to the expert, Kyler Nixon. All right. Today we're speaking with Kyler Nixon. We're going to spend some time talking about training and courses and building your own. He's got an incredible background that will help us, I think, see where this may fit in, where if it's something that you've considered, that it's something that maybe you want to take that other step and see where this is. It's become a pretty, definitely a cottage industry, if not bigger than that. There's a lot of people out there building courses on a broad range of topics. So something that may be useful to you, it may be useful to some of your customers. So we'll start with a little introduction from Kyle because it's going to take it best if it comes straight from the horse's mouth. I love it. Well, thanks so much for having me on. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Yeah, my name is Kyler Nixon. I'm the founder of Kyler Creative. We're a marketing agency. I'm based out of Madison, Wisconsin, but we actually have remote employees kind of scattered throughout the central Midwest. And we work primarily with courses and memberships. We help people make money off what they know. And so that's why I'm really excited about this conversation because for developers and entrepreneurs, like, what a better spot to, like, monetize your knowledge and monetize the things that that you know. So, yeah, I'm sure we'll dig into that a little bit more, but I've been doing that for pretty much my whole career. We found one great client right away when I was still navigating, what niche do we want to be in? And fast forward to today, that client has over two million Instagram followers and is a multi-multi-million dollar business. And so we've just sort of branched off from that and really loved working with course creators and memberships to help them launch, grow and scale. Well, starting so I think starting with that is what's what if there is, what's the difference between approaching it as a course creator versus more of a membership kind of a site or approach to it? Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, like the common denominator there is that you're making money off what you know. So the difference between a course and a membership is typically a course is filmed in advance or produced in advance. Courses can kind of take a lot of different shapes. It's typically created in advance. Someone can buy it. Maybe it's a one time cost, one hundred, a thousand, five thousand dollars, something like that. Right. There's not a lot of hand holding through that process. You might send them some check in emails. You might send some additional resources. But overall, the course sort of exists in its own ecosystem. And it's more often than not self paced. So the person can buy it and then they can go through it on their own time. Whereas a membership, it might have a course inside of it. It might have some educational content inside of it. But there's typically a community component and there's it's more subscription based. You might spend, you know, nine dollars, twenty dollars, thirty dollars a month on this membership, get access to all of that person's, you know, educational resources. But then there's also a community component where you're interacting with your audience. So I think if you're listening to this, typically a membership is a little bit harder right out of the gate. If you have a little bit more of an audience, if you have a good size email list, a good YouTube following, you know, whatever that might be. Typically, a membership is easier because you have the numbers to kind of support where you're going right away. But if you're just getting started, sometimes a course can be the easiest way to jump into that world of educational content. Well, so I guess digging into that a little bit is how do you what's a good start as far as like a size of an audience, whether it's whether your audience is a YouTube audience or a mailing list or something like that. And then what is I guess sort of is there like a is there a minimum or you like, hey, you need to get past a certain point before it really makes sense for you to even put together a course and try to get something out of it? Yeah, we get this question a lot and I love it. It's it's kind of tough to answer, even though I've probably tried to answer it a dozen times. It really depends on the person. So what I actually recommend is starting to build that audience. So let's say that YouTube is your platform of choice. I don't think there's a magical number that you need to hit, but I think you'll sort of start to feel, hey, I'm getting a lot of engagement on these videos. People are leaving comments. People are asking for more. Maybe you're sending them to an email list and that email list is adding 10, 20, 30 subscribers every single week. At that point, it might be time to start questioning your audience and saying, hey, I'm thinking about putting out this course. Would you buy it? I'm thinking about making this resource. Would you download it? And you can use your audience to let you know when they're ready to buy something from you. So that's what I would recommend. I would say as a general thumb, if you have like over a thousand people on your in your audience right now and they're relatively engaged, it's probably time to start thinking about that. But anything short of that number, you might want to start to feel it out and start asking them questions. So then I guess that begs the question, how do you what are some good ways to go about building and building an audience? Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. And if I if I knew how to get to a huge audience, I'd be like a billionaire at this point. Right. But what what I say and what we recommend to our clients is to start with some pillar content that you know you can crush. So let's give an example. Let's say that you are a Webflow developer. OK, so Webflow, obviously there's a ton of things inside of Webflow that you can sort of master, right, as a website platform. And so let's say that some of your pillar content is you know that you're really, really good at designing content management systems inside of Webflow. Right. Like that's your jam. Maybe you just start off with that one piece of pillar content. So you go on Twitter or LinkedIn or whatever platform you want. I don't really care. I think the platform is sort of irrelevant. You go on that platform and you start to create content around that. So post every day, post twice a day, comment on people's stuff, interact with them in whatever platform you're in. And what you'll start to see is that people will start to naturally be drawn back to what you are wanting to teach. So for most of our clients, they're actually on Instagram and they have very specific topics. So let's say that there's a client teaching on I'm going to do something really abstract. Let's say baby sleep. OK, we have a client who teaches parents how to get their babies to sleep. What she'll do is every single day, she just goes on Instagram and she's posting about, you know, sleep schedules and what does the room need to be like to get the best sleep and how long should your little one be sleeping and what happens if you're traveling and what happens if they have a cold. Right. Really, all she's doing is just taking all the things that she knows. She's already an expert in that topic and she's packaging it up into little bite sized pieces of content and putting it out into whatever platform she is is on. And so, you know, by doing that, by interacting with others, you're able to to grow that audience, you know, to a size that makes sense for you to maybe start monetizing. So as you're doing that, you're putting this content out, you're giving this information out to people to you to bring them in. How do you essentially evaluate it where maybe you're giving too much, you know, out versus bringing something, you know, because some people I know, they're like, hey, if I tell them all this and they're never going to buy my course or if I, you know, if I'm if they're on my mailing list and I'm sending them tidbits and they're never going to sign up. Yeah, I sort of have a maybe contrary opinion to that, and that's that you can never give away too much. Now, to be clear, if you have some like highly proprietary, you know, crazy system or code base that you've built or something, you know, wild like that. Yeah, maybe don't like give that away necessarily. But I would say 99 percent of the time, give it give it all, give every piece of information that you can think of. And here's why, because people don't pay for education. Like I can go to YouTube, I can go to I can go follow anyone and find most things online these days. Right. What they pay for is is application and a system that they can follow. And so like I'll go back to that baby sleep client. She gives everything away on her Instagram. Like you could sit there for hours and hours and you could find pretty much every single part of her course. Well, that's like not why people are buying it. What they're buying is they're buying a clear step by step process to be successful. And it's the same thing here. Like you could go through all of our stuff. You could read all of my blogs. You could be on my newsletter. You could go through my Instagram and you could have a really successful business. You could you could build a really successful business with that information. But you might join my membership or work with us one on one, because I'm going to give you the exact step by step process you need right now without all the other fluff. So I would say, don't be afraid to give information away. I think people will be rewarded by for doing that, by having people come to them and actually purchasing their course when the time comes. So as you're doing like marketing, planning and consulting and things like that with people, how do you feel? Because it's just an interesting one that brought up that question. How do you feel about these it will come like the teaser courses where they say, hey, you know, we're going to teach you, you know, six things and the sixth one is going to, you know, change your business or the rest of your life. And you go into it and it just ends up being this. It's really it's just a bait and switch. And most as you go through and they'll give you a point here and a point there, but it just drags it out, drags it out, drags it out. And at the end, it's basically I'm going to give you my email address so then you can get a hold of me and then you'll buy my course or something like that, where it really is, where they're withholding part of that information. And especially when you've already got somebody that's sort of like signed up or something like that, said, hey, I'm interested in enough. And yet they still hold that out. Is that something that you're like, hey, that that makes sense. So that carrot carrot stick approach, or is it more like, you know, have it and get them to buy into the the presentation of it? Yeah, I mean, there's like for every one way of doing something the right way, there's like 100 ways to do it the wrong way. And I would probably categorize that in in the wrong way for sure. Like for me and as other creators, if you're listening to this, like we have an obligation to be respectful of our of our audience's time of their energy. Right. Like now more than ever, people are busy. There's stuff vying for their attention. Like there's so much information out there that like I think one of the most disrespectful things we can do is to like do that bait and switch or to like keep stringing them along. Or what's even worse is let's say you do a little teaser course like that and then you have them buy your regular course and they buy it. And then at the end, they're like, oh, go buy part two or like to me, that's just like the most gimmicky way to do it. And so if you have that thought where you're like, OK, well, I'm not trying to be gimmicky. I just want to make sure I'm getting sales. What you might do instead is focus on one piece of your course. So let's say again that you're that Webflow developer and I'm going to teach you how to build a Webflow site from scratch in under a week. OK, let's say that that's your pitch for your course. Well, what you might do is you might pull one piece of that out and say, I'm going to teach you how to build an incredibly dynamic CMS library in one day. Maybe that's your mini course will give them every single thing they need. But then you also know that at the end, you can say, hey, this solve this problem for you if you have a bigger problem, which is you want to build a full Webflow site and not just the CMS component of it, then buy my course here. So to me, that's a better way to do it is break out pieces of your content, package them up in a way that can kind of stand on their own and then, you know, push them to the course after that. As like an easy example for us, we, you know, with marketing, email marketing is a huge piece of what we do. And so I have a workshop called 100 subscribers in seven days. It's not not a pitch. You can't go buy it right now, but it's 100 subscribers in seven days. And that's one little piece of our larger membership ecosystem. Right. They can solve that problem. They can get their email software up and running in seven days. They can get 100 subscribers in seven days. And so I'm being respectful of that. I'm giving them what they need and then I'm offering it as a part of a larger ecosystem. Step back a little bit. What are some maybe some things that most course creators, either they they do incorrectly or that maybe most of them do get correct, maybe, you know, a couple on both sides is like, what are the things where it's like, yeah, most people get this part of it, but here's the area that people tend to, you know, they miss it or they don't understand it. Yeah, that's a great question. And again, like there's so many ways to do things, which I love the, you know, the course space because of how many ways there are to do things. But I think that course creators sort of make they all kind of fall into like similar buckets when they're when they're, you know, building their course. And so even within these, you could do it like I could say one thing, but you might be doing it and it's working for you. Right. So I'm just going to kind of like overall like run through a few of them. One, I find so many course creators have their course priced incorrectly. They sit down and they say, OK, I've spent, you know, 30 hours making this course or 40 hours making this course. It's worth a thousand dollars. Right. It's easily worth a thousand dollars. Well, when you're making a course, it's your price is directly correlated to the value you're bringing, not the amount of time that you put put into building that course. I have no doubt that you think it's worth a thousand or that it's really valuable. But ultimately, it's only as valuable as what your audience is willing to pay. And so that's kind of the first big one. We touched on this a little bit ago, but I would say like the second is that they don't have an audience or no website traffic. I was talking to a consulting client last week and she was like, man, I don't I don't have any purchases like I can't get any sales. I can't whatever. And so I had her pull up Google Analytics and we saw like she had less than 300 visitors to her site in a 30 day period. Well, of course, you don't have any sales. You know, how can you expect anyone to buy when there's no one really on your site to to buy it from you? Right. Third is, I don't know, a lot of like production issues, I would say. Like if you if you put something out and your course has like really terrible audio, that can be like a big distraction. If you have really gimmicky or chintzy like graphics or visuals, that can be a little bit of a distraction. Now, I'm a huge proponent of not putting a ton of money into making a course. I think you can make it pretty inexpensively, especially is that a word? And it's inexpensively inexpensively. Inexpensive. What does that say? Was that in that be there? Wow. Oh, my goodness. Happy New Year. That's a marketing word. Inexpensively. Yeah, I'm going to trademark that inexpensively. There we go. So I'm a fan of doing it that way, especially when you get started, you know, as you grow and as you have some of that revenue. Yeah, go and invest it in a video production agency to help, you know, polish that up. But I would say a lot of course creators will make that mistake of just thinking, oh, I don't have to put any amount of money in this or any type of production value in this. I also think a lot of course course creators make the mistake of not gathering emails. They rely too heavily on their audience. I was talking to a client who had over 100000 followers on Instagram. And you hear that number and you're like, oh, they should be like raking it in. Well, they only had 500 email subscribers on their list. And so they're literally one algorithm away from going out of business. You know, like Zuckerberg wakes up tomorrow and is like, OK, Instagram's done. Well, like you only have 500 people on your email list. And so I think those are those are some of the big ones is making sure that they're gathering emails. Some of the production value, I think, is important and pricing pricing the course and getting traffic. So that sort of, again, leads us right in. Another one is how do you like, for example, that customer that's got, you know, 300 visitors a month, what are what are maybe the the best ways you recommend for to go from there, to grow? You know, is it just go and get some ads? Is it, you know, go go on a speaking tour? What is it that is or maybe some of the best or maybe, I guess, as well, the most effective, maybe, you know, bang for your buck to do if you want to aggressively build out your your following or your list? Yeah, great question. So if we're talking about we're creating content around what we know. Right. So that's kind of the baseline of what this conversation is about. One of the easiest ways to kind of put out information around what you know is through blogs. So let's say that you again, going back to that Webflow developer. We're talking about CMS. What you might do is put together a fifteen hundred, two thousand word blog around everything you need to know to build a great Webflow CMS. Right. So now you have that piece of content that you own. Right. It's an asset for your business. It's a piece of educational content that lives on your site that one can get some SEO juice, which is a little bit harder uphill, you know, battle, as most people know. But two, it's really great fodder for your social media, for your YouTube, whatever those things are. So let's use that as an example. And here's exactly what we teach our clients. So let's say that the blog is called, you know, the ultimate guide to building a dynamic CMS library and Webflow. OK. Well, let's say there's five different headings in there. There's things like, you know, building your CMS items, customization, visuals, you know, whatever else. Right. What you can do then is you can break each of those individual pieces out into smaller pieces of content. So you have your long form blog and then you pull out each of those little sections and you now have content for Twitter for that week. You have content for Instagram for that week. And what you do to get traffic is you say, hey, I just told you about customization. Now go read the rest of the blog here. And then you offer a link back to your site. Right. And so you're sort of creating this flywheel is what we call it, like a flywheel of content where someone, you know, you put out a social media post, you send them back to the blog. They read the blog and then they re engage with you and you just repeat that process over and over and over again on Instagram, which is, again, a platform most of our clients are on. One of the best ways that I love to do that is put up a sticker question in your stories and say, hey, what questions do you have about this topic? Then people will ask you questions and you just answer them and say, hey, here's how you do that. I also have a blog for you. Click here to read it. Right. And so if you can utilize your your stories or your Twitter following or your YouTube account or whatever, and just link back to the content that already exists on your website, it's it's super, super easy. Like for us, we rarely make new content for social media. I'm usually just repurposing a blog. So if you start with your blog, break it into smaller pieces and then link back to the blog, that's how you'd be able to get one new content for your social accounts and two lots and lots of traffic. Oh, excellent. What is the, this is again, as you're mentioning some of that, is there a difference or maybe a recommended approach versus from like, you know, blog versus videos versus podcasts or something like that? Because now there's not only is there a ton of content out there, there's countless ways, you know, not just ignoring the social sites and social networks. There's so many different ways that you can reach out. Is there, you know, it's like some people may say, ah, blogs are, you know, dead or something like that. And now, you know, it's videos is the way to go. And especially when you see the influencers and stuff like that, what's, is there, is there somewhere you'd say, Hey, if you're just starting from scratch, here's a great way to go. Or does it really vary as well based on your topic and your content? I think it's less about the topic and content and more about the individual. So if you're really comfortable on video and you love video, start with video and then get a transcript and turn it into a blog. Right. Or if you love like conversations, like we're having over podcasts right now, start with a podcast and then turn the transcript or the content into a blog. Right. Or if you prefer to write and sit on it and kind of think through it and revisit it, then start with the blog. Right. Really, it's up to whatever is most comfortable for you start there because you're going to be more likely to stick with it. Your, you know, authentic voice and tone is going to come through that. And then you can kind of repurpose it from there. So like for me, I don't love video. I struggle with it. It's a lot of time and energy. Like it's just not something I've really loved to be able to do. And so I really like writing and so I'll do, I'll do blogs or we have a podcast as well. And so sometimes that's a better format for me. So whatever the thing is that drives you and that gets you excited and that's easy for you to stick with, stick with it. You don't have to fit a mold. You just have to check the box that you have some piece of long form content. That's an asset that you own, whether that's again, blogs, podcasts, you know, video or a blog, yeah, blog, podcast, video, or like a newsletter. Oh, excellent. So what, cause you're, your focus is making people very successful. Your, your mission actually is, is a thousand brands earn a million dollars to courses in the next 10 years, which is a real nice, like, here's my goal. What's the difference between somebody that does a, a thousand dollar course, you know, they bring in a thousand bucks a year through a couple of people versus somebody that's, you know, hit seven fingers. It's got a million dollar course, a structure. Man, that's a great question. I would say that the, the bigger courses can sometimes scale faster because they typically have like a product that solves a major problem. Like I mentioned baby sleep, right? Well, there's like millions of babies born every year. Every parent knows that they have to get their baby to sleep. And so like, that's a really easy something for that, that parent to latch onto, right? Is like, take this course, right? So I would say like, that's probably one of the biggest ones is they have such a broad topic that solves such a major pain point that it's just really easy to, to scale that up. Now on the other side of things, I'm, I'm a firm believer that you can make money off of what you know, no matter what it is. Right. And so we gave the example of baby sleep, but like we have a client who teaches people how to bake sugar cookies. We have a client who teaches people how to get their, their toddler to read. Right. Like you can make money off of a number of topics. It might be a little bit slower to get to that, you know, million mark or whatever, but ultimately your course has to solve a problem. And so if you ask me again, what's the between a course that does a thousand and a million, let's say that all things are equal. The difference is that probably that thousand dollar course isn't really solving a problem or isn't positioning themselves to solve a problem. Whereas the million dollar course is like, let's take that sugar cookie course. For example, that's not really a huge problem, right? Like I kind of know how to make sugar cookies. Grandma probably passed down some recipes. I can go on Pinterest. I can go to Walmart and buy sugar cookies. Right. Like that's not really a huge problem. Well, for that client, they positioned it less as I'm going to teach you how to bake sugar cookies and more like I'm going to teach you how to make bakery quality sugar cookies. That'll make all your neighbors jealous. Right. Well now you're solving a little bit more of a specific, a specific problem. Right. And so I would say that's kind of the biggest difference, but at the end of the day, I've seen courses pass that six, seven figure mark, regardless of topic, regardless of content. And it's really just about sticking to it and solving a major problem, or at least positioning yourself to solve a major problem. That makes sense is given, you know, give them that it goes back to that, giving them value and in your course and in your content. So now you sort of implied a couple of things here too, as you're talking about what you've done and then also what some of the, your customers have done. How do you, as a creator, what is your, what should your focus be? Let's assume that you've got a topic and you've got a, you've got your expertise and you know roughly what your content is. How do you take that and what, what should your approach be as far as like, should I just, you know, build it once and then just constantly get into that flywheel? Is there something where I should be regularly checking back in and updating it? I mean, how do you, and maybe it varies again by, by business and by person, but what's sort of your, what would you recommend? There's maybe that's sort of like a standard, here's how you need to look at it. Here's how you need to go into it. You know, how much time you're creating content versus maybe tweaking it versus working your community or working your email lists, things like that. Yeah, yeah. It's a big question. I'll try to tackle it. So I typically think in terms of like launching a course, we'll start there. I typically think about it in one of two ways. There's kind of two frameworks. Either is fine. I've seen success with both. It just sort of depends on what you want and what makes the most sense for your audience. So the first is an evergreen course. So that's something that you make the course, you create it, and it's always available for purchase, right? So it's ready for, ready to buy now and I can come back six months from now and I can buy that course whenever I want to. The pros of that are obviously anyone can buy. You don't have to do big sales pushes. You can kind of always have that that steady revenue stream if you want to. And it's typically best if your audience can't wait for a long time to buy, like if you do an open and close launch, which we'll talk about in a second. If you can't do that, like for baby sleep, like I need my baby to sleep right now. Right. And so that's not a great fit for an open and closed model. Instead, that's a really good fit for an evergreen model where someone can buy it whenever they want. So that's the first kind of framework that we see and we recommend is that you just open it and it's ready to go. Now, within that, you might come back every six months or every year and sort of do an internal audit on that. Are people taking it? Are they finishing it? Are they, where are they getting stuck? Are there additional resources I need to supplement? And then typically every three to four years, you might redo the entire course. So every six months to a year revamp it every, you know, two, three, four years, you might redo it depending on the type of content that you're teaching about. The second framework is an open and closed framework. So that's where you would do like maybe a two week launch period. You're typically structuring all of your content to be around launch and then the doors close. So, so you get a hundred people in there on Tuesday, that door closes on Tuesday. And then now someone cannot buy or get access to that course until later on. That's a really good fit if you want to go through like a cohort based system. So let's say for the next three months, I'm going to walk everyone through this process. Maybe it's a, it's a typically a better marketing angle because people feel like they're missing out if they can't get in right away. And so for business to business courses or things where you can get away with opening and closing, that's, that's a great framework there. Regardless of what you do, I typically recommend that same thing that I mentioned earlier, every six months go and reformat and revamp every, you know, two, three, four years, you might redo the course. Both of those, both evergreen and open and closed will sort of lead you to that. Now, in terms of the day to day, like once you've actually launched, it's going to slightly vary if you have an open and closed versus nevergreen. If you have an evergreen, you can always sort of subtly push people back to that course. Whereas if you have an open and closed, you might be spending a little more time building up a waitlist for the next launch or not even mentioning your course at all. And just getting as much traction via social media as you possibly, possibly can at the end of the day, though, I'd typically recommend that that most creators spend time on the things that they own versus the things that they rent, which is a relatively popular, you know, kind of term in marketing. And so some of the things that you own are going to be things like your email list, your website and your blog, right? Your, you know, YouTube videos, like those are things that you own, no matter who is in charge of that platform. They can't take that away from you. Right. Whereas on the other hand, things that you rent are social media platforms. If Mark Zuckerberg changes the rules of Elon changes the rules on Twitter, like, sorry, like you're, you're sunk. And so what I recommend is spending about 20% of your time on the things that you rent and driving them to about 80% of the time on the things that you, that you own. So that looks like using Twitter to send people to your blog, using Instagram to send people to your email list. And once you kind of build up that, that flywheel, then you can, you know, press into the evergreen or the open and close course model. That makes sense. Yeah. And especially I don't think I'd heard the what you own versus you rent, but that makes a lot of sense. And particularly in the world of social media, where, you know, something like that, you can change an algorithm. The next thing you know, you're, you know, you're not being seen or you're, you've lost a bunch of your people that were, you know, that were your followers beforehand. For sure. Yeah. And that is where we're going to pause this episode. We're not done. We will be talking to Kyler in part two and wrap it up in the next episode. We're going to get a little deeper. We're going to talk about that, take it to the next level thing that he does, talk about his customers, how he helps them. And he's going to drop a lot of hints along the way, things that you can do regardless of where you're at. These are good habits that you want to get into doing if you are generating content, whether it is for the class itself or things like blogs and other areas of content that you're using as some sort of funnel or way to get eyeballs to your site or to drag users into whatever your content area is, track them in and keep them there and keep them interested and fulfilled for spending their time and investing their time on your site. That being said, I'm going to let you invest your time in the rest of your day. We'll be back next time. Continue our interviews and we're not even done there. So go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. 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