LinkedIn

Welcome to Building Better Developers, the developer podcast where we work on getting better step by step professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. I hope that that season break wasn't too long for you. Yes, if you've noticed, we have actually moved into the next season, but have no fear. We're diving right back in. We've got a lot of interviews ahead. There's just decided it was time to kick that season marker over and we're going to wrap these suckers up in the next probably 10 to 15 or so episodes as far as interviews. And then we'll probably have quite a few actually of a sort of like an interview summary, get a couple of episodes because there's a lot of topics that I want to come back around to and sort of refresh your memory because we've been doing this for quite a while. We've been doing this for almost a year since we started into this season 18 interview series. And this episode is no different. We're going to speaking with Naomi Johnson and we're going to talk LinkedIn. This is something that I think some people heavily use it, but I think a lot of people use it to the level they could, particularly those of us that are technology developers, things like that, sales and marketing people. I think they're all over it. But people like ourselves that are really more looking at it to help us find a job or find business or something like that. I don't think we equate it to the marketing tool that it can be. And I'm assuming that after you get done with this, listening through this episode and the next one that you're going to have a different point of view because I sure did. But I think I have given you enough. So let's dive right into our conversation with Naomi Johnson. OK, today we are going to talk LinkedIn among other things. We're speaking with Naomi Johnson and we're going to have a good little conversation about how to get yourself noticed and get some of your products noticed and how to leverage this thing that probably every one of us has got a LinkedIn profile. We know people that are like, hey, I'm on LinkedIn and that may be all you know. Well, now we're going to get a little bit more information how you can make that work for you and not just be some sort of lame business card kind of thing, but actually something that will get your attention and help you out. That being said, I think we're going to dive right in with Naomi and let her give us her own story in her own words, a little bit of her background. I want to welcome you to the podcast and tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah, thank you for having me, Rob. It's great to be here with you and your audience. So, yeah, I'm Naomi Johnson. I live over in England, as you can already tell from my accent down the South Coast. And I write people's LinkedIn profiles to position them as the go to expert in their industry. So they become the only person their prospects want to work with. So that's a lot of people who are experts at what they do, subject mass experts looking for the right opportunity very much so. And just getting, you know, I do it very strategically with people. So it's not just you tell me and I write it. I look at the strategy. How are you going to go out to market? What are you bringing to the table that perhaps somebody else isn't? Because we've all got a unique journey of how we came to where we are and what we've got to offer. It's about pulling that out. So starting with that is how do you how do you start that conversation? Because as you say, everybody, yes, everybody is unique. But then there's especially, for example, you're a say a developer. You can even say, I'm a developer. I do websites. That's still a lot of people that fall into that. So how do you go into that conversation to help them help people figure out what is their unique thing to make them the one subject matter expert in that field? Yeah. So it's all about the problem that you solve. What is the problem that you solve? And everybody will tell you the answer differently. I've written profiles for a corporate sales team all over the globe, selling the same product, essentially. And I say to them, so tell me, ask them one very particular question around that. Every single one of them will answer it differently because they have a different passion. A different aspect of it has opened their eyes and made them excited for that one thing. So when you look at the problem that you solve, you might find a developer who's all about the server and whether we're peaks and troughs of the server, or somebody might want to be developing something which has great access for people who are visually impaired or accessibility might be their thing. So there's always something that we're passionate about deep within our subject, because like you just said, it's really broad range and no one is an expert or specialist at the whole broad range. We've all got a passion at something where if we saw a blog post about it, we'd read it, we'd investigate, we'd put time in, we'd be up to one o'clock in the morning looking deeper into it because it interests us. And that there is where you'd find that difference with people. Now, when you have that conversation, do you find that typically people can get to that fairly quickly or is it something they tend to have to go away and think about it for a little bit? No, I pretty much find it like almost instantly because you just say, well, what's the problem you want to solve? And they just tell you, you know, this is what I'm annoyed about in the world. This is what it just needs to be fixed my way. This is just the way I just know it should be this way. Because they've got enough life experience, work experience to know that that answer is the right one and they're passionate about it. They know who that's right for and they know who that's not right for. And that's really what makes them an expert in their industry is that they're absolutely adamant the problem needs to be fixed their way, but they can work out when it's not for that person. And so that allows them to be subject subject matter experts. That makes it now that makes sense. But what about or maybe do you see a difference in people that are, like, say, newer into their career, you know, a couple of years in versus few years in versus, you know, the people who've been there long enough that they're like, hey, I've seen it all. Yeah. So if you're early stage career, you're really looking for, you know, to appeal to a headhunter to you. Want keywords to come up in a new industry. There's a lot of them like Java and all that kind of stuff you'd want. You'd want to make sure that those those are on there so you can be found by the headhunter and you're building up that level of experience. But when you get to that point where you're really drilling down to a specialty or you're starting up a side hustle using that skill range, that's when you really want to start standing out and really saying something that's different, that gets somebody's attention. Because at the end of the day, there's probably a thousand people who do fundamentally what you do. And that's why we have the well, the gig economy, which is exactly that. I need a niche. I need something solved. I'll go to the pool of people. I pull it out. So you do this and then off the off you go again. So people go in for short term gigs. But you're going to get to the point where actually instead of being an actor on the stage that can be replaced by another actor who looks really similar, you actually become the director of the play. And you're saying, I can see how we can make all this happen. I've got enough life experience to actually lead this project, see how this project can go. It needs to go in this way. And you become the hire of the gig economy people. So you become the hire of the actors, but you are the director of the show. And that's the difference. The director cannot be replaced that easily because it's his vision. That makes sense. That's really makes it sound a lot more a lot more important what we do. It's wow, we're the director, the director, but we cannot be replaced. So stepping back a little bit, because I do want to I guess we sort of jumped ahead in the in the world of LinkedIn. So we started with the introduction of finding a way to make more, make it work for you. What is in a world where there's email and all these other different ways people get a hold of you? What is it that makes it valuable to to spend some time on LinkedIn? I mean, and what kind of investment should go into it? What do you think about? Well, it could be it's like just another website, just another social site, something like that. Yeah, I think it's just really understanding that it's your network and your wealth is in your network, which is a great quote. I heard years ago. Your wealth is in your network, which basically means you could lose your job. You lose your job tomorrow, lose your house and lose everything. But because you've got trust and reputation with people, therefore you have trust in those people. Those people will open doors and help you get a new opportunity. So when all things hit the fan, it's like, well, who do I know that can get me back on my feet again? Who do I know that can open a door for me? So that's the what networking and having a network is. Your wealth is in your network. So LinkedIn is about being able to keep in front of that network and can keep those connections going. Even though physically you're not seeing that person, even though miles separate you, maybe you've never met before, but something about the two of you connected on something, maybe in a conversation privately on a messenger messaging, or maybe you've connected and you both commented on the same thing and got some banter going. You know, there's different ways of having a connection with people and building that relationship. So where you would have email or you'd have to have their email and you have a purpose to email them. And people don't have time to like write pen pal letters. Do you know what I mean? They just don't do that. So how do we keep in touch with our network if we're not going to send out a newsletter and we're not going to be pen pals? LinkedIn is the place to do that. It's you've got to imagine it in the physical terms of us all just gathering together, getting a cup of coffee and gathering together and mingling in a room. That is what LinkedIn is. I'm going to come and mingle with my network. I'm going to reestablish relationships. I'm going to firm up some relationships and I'm going to make some new relationships. So that's where you'd want to be on the platform as a whole. And that is very much, you know, you're commenting on other people's stuff when you decide to put your own post up and encourage people to comment on it. This is all you being in that room, meeting and firming up those relationships. And then what happens is, is people get curious about you and they say, well, who are you and why are you saying this? And, you know, that's a very interesting point you just made. Is this something you specialize in? And that's when they're going to see when you comment on somebody else's stuff, they are going to go, gosh, interesting comment. Is this what you specialize in? And that I would instantly go to your name and the first 49 characters of your headline that is showing. If it says I'm a safety officer, they go, well, that's an interesting thing. You just said you clearly know something. Thank you for telling me that you're a safety officer. It couldn't possibly know anything about that topic. So that's nice. You just you're not an expert at it. You're not a problem solver of it. Thank you for saying that. I'll join in the conversation, but it's not going to make me go and visit your profile. But if you said something really interesting about servers and the load that are going on them and TV adverts and advertising and how it goes, peaks and troughs and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, the cost of owning service and stuff like that. I'm going to go, that's really interesting. Does this person know what is this person expert? And I see that first 49 characters and I go and I go and open that profile because they I can see that you're an expert in that, because the first 49 characters confirm this is your topic. So now you've got me on your profile. What am I now doing on your profile? Everything on LinkedIn is a distraction. And nobody I didn't log into LinkedIn today to read your profile. I'd never heard of you until just a minute ago. So why am I not going to read everything? I'm going to be scanning the profile and I'm going to be asking, how is this relevant to my day and is this a good use of my time? And so instantly I need to make sense to me. So that background image sets a picture, the scene, the context of what I'm coming into, the picture, you know, have you taken care of it to make make it look good? And then the headline is the thing that is going to really tell me the context of the conversation. So if you are someone who is positioning yourself as someone who's an expert and a problem solver, I want to know that straight up. I don't necessarily want a job title. I want to know straight up. That is it. And that's what I do. And that's the headline. So then what will happen is this person will scroll down. They'll see the first three lines of the about section and they might just see a few words on it. Then they'll keep going. They'll see the activity and then they'll see your experience with your job title, the company name and the first two lines of your experience. How well that's taken care of is going to make an impression if it's nicely formatted and looking good. I scroll through, I go, yeah, OK, this looks interesting. I'll bite. So then they're going to click on the about section. And when they click on the about section, they're going to go, that's long or that short. That's really big paragraphs. I can't keep track of that. I'm not going to read it. Oh, that's nice and colorful. That's got some emojis in it. Oh, they're going to go, oh, my God, that's over formatted. Just you're just pelting me with a sales message. I'm not going to read this. So what we want to do is we just want to make it gentle and smooth and calm in many respects to just draw the reader in. We want some kind of some emojis, most likely, because it just brings people in where words are positioned on the end of paragraphs, the beginning of paragraphs are really important because that's what's going to jump out of me in the scan I'm doing. And then I'm going to start off with the first reading, the first line of your about section. So on there, I want the keyword that you are known for needs to be either the very beginning or somewhere in the middle of the sentence. I instantly need to get, OK, that's the same problem, the same subject. And what we want to do is we want to like tell people something that they didn't know before about the problem that they solve. And especially in the IT development world, we almost want to get it to the point that our grandmother would understand it. Because the biggest mistake I see people making is assuming that people coming to that their profile of their ideal target market, they're not that everybody. And not everybody is the ideal target market, but they are people who can make referrals. And if I understand what you do, if you explain it to me in a way that I understand it, I can tell other people about it. Now, I'm not in IT, but I know about server loads and I know about if you have a company with a TV advert. I've referred to that example a few times because I wrote the LinkedIn profile for somebody who specializes in that. And we made that first paragraph so everybody could get it like, Oh, my gosh, I never thought of that, that there's going to be a big surge on that company's website when that TV advert goes out. Huh, never thought of that before. That's interesting. And it costs money. So you want to have a flexible plan. Ah, not what I'm into. But I can see that's what you do. Great. And I walk away. But now, because we all love saying interesting things into conversations. Now I know something. And you never know when I might tell that to somebody and they go, Yeah, I'm paying like high for high server loads 100% of the time. I could do some flexibility. So I only pay for it when it pay high when it peaks. OK. And so that drop of me going, well, you can actually do that. You know, that exists, does it? That creates an awareness in that person that then their eyes will now be open to looking for that solution. And because I'm connected to you or maybe I didn't connect to you in my second degree, there's a very high chance that you're the person how I was just speaking to that. And the person who does the service is actually in the suggested profiles on the side. So this person's come to an awareness. I need to look at my server usage. They then are looking at my profile of somebody else's profile, and they see it as a suggestion. And those words are going to jump out where they would never have jumped out before. And that's because I, who was not your ideal prospect, understood what you did. So this is why. Go ahead. This is why it's just so important to think about how you're communicating, what you're saying and whether people can understand what you do and speaking to the 100 percent of your market, your audience. That makes a lot of sense. And that's a that's an excellent story for that. That kind of a progression. So that actually goes right into one of the things I was going to ask as you were talking about your, you know, the wealth. I love that the wealth is in your network. And that's a good example is there's been several times that I've heard people that are very successful entrepreneurs and networkers and that. And they get asked that question of, you know, what happens if you had nothing and you were dropped in a city with 500 bucks or something like that? Almost entirely. I was every one of them. It starts with using that to go build a network. That's like the first thing is they're going to go build connections and build relationships. Yeah. And that's so. And so is LinkedIn. You have that ability to to reach out and to connect and do and link to other people. So do you see it as something where particularly because LinkedIn does have you can target it a little bit. You think it is the more the merrier, the more the better, the bigger your your network is, the better it's going to be. Or is it helped to have or is it useful to have a very more of a targeted type of network? Yeah, I mean, it's changing a lot. You can have this is something I get. I get quite on a soapbox about. You can have 11000 followers and you can have no clients. OK, because you've just done it as a clicking exercise. And then you haven't posted anything in four months. So when you do start posting, LinkedIn sends it to a portion of your network that maybe you've recently been active with you and you're not going to get anywhere near the reach you expect. And you're probably going to get less reach for 11000 than you than someone who's got 2000. So the clicking exercise of just adding people for the vanity of having 11000 followers means very little. This is why I'm all about helping people to build the foundations of their business so that they can actually start getting clients from a lot less people and also a lot less content, because at the end of the day, if you're a developer, for example, content isn't going to be a massive thing for you because you don't have. There's not a massive audience. You've got to think about who buys IT in. You've either got a big company that knows what they want and they have a manager inside that company who knows exactly what to buy. You have an HR manager that's been told what to go and recruit for and someone who's checking that what they're bringing in is right. Or you have a headhunter who knows all about it and has a big roster of people that they can they can go to and knows all the key words to do proper searching. And then you've also got those, you know, those smaller businesses that you love to like use your skills to help them to grow that would have no idea how to hire in your services that need to really grasp what you do and how you can help them. So that you get you get people on all different areas of that. And you don't need in that respect, you don't need a lot of followers in order to get what you want. It's all about knowing the outcome that you're going after. And I'd imagine for those scenarios, throwing content out there aimlessly is not going to be the answer. It's going to be the wealth is in your network. And then with that, you don't want to just be adding people, because if you just add in that ad, how are they going to get to know you? How are they going to know that you're there content? But what if you just went a bit more slowly and a bit more targeted and said, what is it I'm actually after right now? Am I after another job? Am I after becoming the director of the show and, you know, solving a very particular problem? Or am I after like investing in another company with my skill set? Be really specific and then be say that very clearly and then go out after that. And because, you know, when you do the problem solving, I solve this very particular problem, then content is going to be interesting and worth doing. But only if you're connected with enough people who will engage with that content, who are from that target market. So then it's, you know, that proactive strategy of actually going after after very targeted to the people who might have that problem. So LinkedIn is based on three strategies. You've got your active, passive and proactive. Passive is your LinkedIn profile. Active is your content and your commenting. And then your proactive is going after the right people. And you want to build a relationship so you don't want to do it too quickly. You want to be building up the number of connections you have, but making sure really that people know who you are and why you've connected. That makes sense is that you want to have, I guess it goes back to that idea of having like a coffee shop meeting where you've just got everybody in there is that you're going to gravitate towards people that have conversations that relate to you. So if you're in, if you're an IT and there's a bunch of people in the corner that are talking real estate, you're probably not going to spend much time to them. And you may recognize them from another meeting, but you're just, yeah, whatever. I don't, I don't understand it. Don't know what, and maybe you do know that, Hey, if somebody, you know, somebody needs real estate help, I'll point them in that direction versus having something where you're like, Oh, hey, I'm hearing people talking about things that are, are of interest to me. This is part of what, you know, what I do on a regular basis. This is part of my life. So now I'm going to, I'm going to listen in a little bit more to what they're doing. And that actually sort of follows into it. So what you mentioned the, you know, the different ways that you can do it. You can go target and find somebody. You can just have a profile out there. We've talked a little bit about the profile, but for coming back to that is what, what are some good content strategies as far as posting and particularly if it's something where it is a, um, like tech, you know, like technology and that where you, you've got a problem you want to solve, but it's not like, you're not like a, you know, a chef where you're going to show your meal that you create it every day or something like that. You've got some, that's probably a little less frequent that you would, that you would have for a posting or, or do you recommend somehow, you know, breaking that up and doing regular posts? Yeah, it's an interesting one because it all depends on who is buying you in, I suppose, because if you are, um, if you're wanting multiple clients and you're selling your IT services, um, to medium, small to medium businesses, then there's a big chance that actually it's going to be the business owner who's going to hire you in. Um, and therefore it's posting content about IT that relates back to the bottom line, relates back to the systems and processes, they're managing their workload, things that really matter to them. Whereas if you know that you're going to join a company with 300 other developers, um, and that's the corner of the room that you're in is this really deep, deep conversation about IT that the average Joe just couldn't even understand what you're talking about and you're connecting with them, go deep. But then I'd also say, don't go that deep, go to a forum for IT. Do you know what I mean? Like there's a, there are other IT places to be. Um, and that is actually a good recruiting bed for people as well. So you have to weigh it up in that respect. Um, and remember that you are connected to family members, school friends, um, past jobs, people, um, you may have been in IT, but you might be connected with admin or sales from that company or, or different people. Um, and posting stuff that's interesting to them as well. And, and balancing the content you put out there, because the more the average person con connects and engages with your content, there's a past that tells LinkedIn that your content is interesting and it's, it's good and people want to hear it and those who are network are engaging with it. And so therefore it continues to post, promote it. So when you do an IT very, very IT focused one, it will get promoted. And okay, the average person's not going to comment on it, but it's going to get promoted. So you just, you do want that balance between the two, um, to make sure that, you know, a lot of your, your network are really engaging with it. But also it's, it's always about how is this relevant to me? Why are you sharing this today? What is in this for me? Um, you know, people who put up a sales message is like, snore. Why would I comment on that? I've got, there's nothing to engage with here and I don't want you, I'm not, I don't want to be marketed to, um, what is the problem that you solve? How is that showing up to people? What are the symptoms of that problem? Cause a lot of people, they don't know that they have a problem. They just are living with the symptoms and they just think that that's the way it is. Our computers run really slowly. Um, our staff are constantly frustrated, but I'm not willing to put 10,000 pounds in to upgrade the systems. That's a really normal thing that comes about. However, when you say, Hey, this is something I hear all the time. What most people don't appreciate is how this lack of productivity is contributing to the bottom line. And stalling the company growth. And also that that 10,000 pack. And if you've got the new computers in what change that would make and that you'd actually get that 10,000 back for pounds back very quickly, but also those computers can be had on a payment plan as well. So you don't have to find the money upfront. You can lease them. You know, there's different options. And so the person's like, Oh my gosh, yeah, I was living with that. Actually, do you know what? I think I might investigate this. Maybe I do want to investigate getting new computers in today. Um, and they'll start that conversation to find out more from you about what this solution actually looks like. But it's really about getting down to how is the problem that you solve showing up in other people's lives that you can talk about symptoms, but they stop and take notice. And that makes sense as you want to get that, uh, you know, grab their attention, uh, in that sense. So when somebody comes to you, uh, we've talked a little bit about this, but what is it's, you know, I'm assuming that at some point they've like, Hey, you know, I've got this LinkedIn thing. Hey, it doesn't seem to be working for me. What are, what are some of the ways that are maybe some, some common things that you see where people are, are not leveraging it or not making it work for them, where you, you know, you're like sort of the things that you may be a regularly saying, Hey, you need to do this. Let's try that. Do these things. Where do you see some of that, that disconnect in using this? Yeah. And it's interesting. You asked me that question because I've actually got an 18 question scorecard, which people can find on my LinkedIn profile and take that. And the questions are not probably what people are expecting. Um, a lot of people who are doing a lot of things on LinkedIn, their activities are falling flat. They could get a hundred people plus like engaging with that particular post they've just put out, but it's not taking that into account. Um, and the reason for that will be, um, firstly, are they being really clear about the problem that they solve? And are they saying it in a way that that audience will go, Oh, that's interesting. I've not come across that before. And that's that opening paragraph on LinkedIn where we set the, the context of the conversation. Then I want to know why you're an expert. So it's your credential statement, but you're telling me your credentials in relation to how you solve that problem, not just the problem, but you because you want to tell me about you. Um, because at this point, I'm not interested in you. Um, I want to be, I'm sure, but, um, my day is very busy and there are a couple of billion people on the planet and I can't know all of them and what they do. So I'm being very selective. So I'm like, Oh, that's an interesting problem. Okay. Right. Now I get why he's talking about this. He's really, he's got the credential. This is impressive. Next paragraph will be about more about the problem and the problem and how it shows up and why the urgency to fix it and probably drop in a few things that are quite actually high level, um, to really show, gosh, I've never thought about that before. This is really important. Huh? And then the next thing that's really, really important, um, is a call to action. Um, and this is where with the 18 questions and the coaching program, I do behind LinkedIn profile is, and I did this with a client this morning. He says, my book, a free coaching call isn't attractive enough. And I said, no, it's really not. He's an even new name for it. Can we come up with a new name? And I was like, we could come up with a new name, but I actually need to take you a few paces in the other direction. First, what are you selling? Um, and what do you need to know about a person to be able to sell that and to be able to sell that and get that information out of that person, to know those things about them, what questions do we have to ask in the sales conversation? And then in that sales conversation, um, why is somebody giving you that information in the first place? What did they expect to get in exchange for telling you all their personal information? Uh, okay, right. So now, now we have a name for it. Now we have an assessment or something that that person can take up a call with. Hey, let's chat. Let's connect. It's not strong enough. If you want to get new business, it's, Hey, let me do an assessment of, um, come from my, uh, this, this assessment. Okay, cool. I'm going to get some signposting. I'm going to get a diagnostic. This is going to be really useful. I'm going to gain something from this time with this person. So you want to put that on there. And ideally you want to have a look at booking links so someone can put themselves in your diary because we are international time zones are different. Um, and also people are working at all times of night. I've had some of the biggest contracts I've had. The person has put themselves in my diary. I've not even noticed that they're there until the day of the call. Big corporate tour three times. It's been a big corporate and they had been looking online out of hours and just was like, this looks really good. I want some of this and decided on the time that they're going to come in. It's more effective than just connect. So maybe I'll, you know, I'll remember you tomorrow kind of thing. Um, so those are really important. And then the experience entry for your company, this one is so overlooked, but if you've got me, you've got my attention right now for what it is that you do and the problem that you solve, I need, and you've said it in quite a creative way of like, this is the problem that I did it at a bear. I now need you to nail it down. No questions about it. What is it your company does and how so that when I reach out, I'm confident I'm in the right place. And so in the experience entry for what you do, I want you to tell me at this company, we, or I, we do this, this, this, this, and this, and we do it in this way and how we help and with clients. When I'm working very deeply with them, they will have a product funnel. They will have a big core juicy package that they offer people, which is a lot, a lot of money. Um, and they'll explain what that is in the, in that section. Then what we need is because no one's going to come and spend 60,000 pounds with you immediately. Um, they might do over the course of a year, but there's usually a payment plan. Um, they need a nice, easy inroad first. So we have a product for prospects, which is more of an inroad less lesser, but it's a starting on that bigger journeys. They go, oh yeah, I could do that. And then they both of them, they go, oh yeah, that sounds amazing. I'd love that. Oh, but you know what? I don't know you well enough. Um, so I'm going to take a step back and then they see your free assessment. So, oh, I can actually have a free call and, and et cetera. Ah, yes, I can see myself doing that. And they step forward and they step into your sales funnel and they take up your offer and then you're into the conversation with them. So that's really important is to have that experience entry with really mapping out that you have processed, you're an expert at this, you know, how to lead people through it, this is what I do. Um, I can really help you. You're in the right place. If you reach out to me, you're not going to sound like an idiot because you're okay, that's the problem myself. I want to hear from you. Um, and then with your background experience as well, it's really building out why you're an expert, like what were the projects you worked on? What were some of the challenges that you saw? How do you, how did that inform your approach now? Why, how did that inform why you're adamant about the problem that you solve right now? And we will pause there. This again, is one of those interviews where it felt like I really just, it was hard to find a spot, it's hard to find a break. I felt like it made sense almost to just push on through, but there's a lot of content there. So I think this is a good time to stop, take a breather, assess a little bit of what, what she's brought up. Uh, maybe if you're like me, go take a look out at your LinkedIn profile and take a couple of those things to heart. See if that maybe will help you, you know, clean it up, make it a little sharper, bring it a little more, if nothing else up to date and then get ready for part two, cause she's going to keep firing away and it's got a lot of really interesting suggestions to help you bring your LinkedIn game up a couple of notches. So see you next episode until then go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you. Thank you for listening to building better developers, the developer podcast. You can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, anywhere that you can find podcasts. We are there. And remember just a little bit of effort every day ends up adding into great momentum and great success. Please check out school.developineur.com. That is where we are starting to pour a lot of our content. We've taken the lessons, the things that we've learned, all of the things that make you a better developer and we're putting it there. 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