dressing for success

Welcome to Building Better Developers, the Developer Nord podcast, where we work on getting better step by step, professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of interviews and we have a new interview today. We will be speaking with Robin Balsley and we are going to talk fashion. Okay. Maybe not fashion. We're going to talk about dressing for success. We're going to talk about how we, as particularly developers and becoming better developers can dress in a way that still makes sense to us because we're not suits and tie type people, particularly when we're working remote. And so even if you're not a developer, I think this is going to be a great episode to just think about how you approach your work day, particularly working from home. But also when you get into the, you know, the situations we're doing interviews and presentations and things of that nature, she's going to help us think a little bit about how we dress so we can present ourselves a little better. Now we're going to dive right into this. So here goes our discussion with Robin. So today where you're speaking with Robin Balsley, she is surprisingly enough, you might think a style expert because yes, while we are entrepreneurs and side hustlers and developers and not people known necessarily for our style or sometimes known for our lack of style. We're going to talk to somebody about how it is important to you and how it impacts the people around you, regardless of what your position is. But also for a lot of us, I think we underestimate our position in what we should be dressing for and things like that. So we're going to talk a little bit about style. There are going to be, I think there will not be a test at the end, but I think there will be good reasons for you to take notes because this is the kind of person that's kind of a, you know, guests that we have that I think it's a little different, it's a little different from some of our normal conversations. And I'm expecting we're going to get a lot out of it. So with that, because you know yourself better than I do, Robin, I like you to go ahead and introduce yourself and provide a little bit of your background. Thank you, Robin. I really welcome the opportunity to be on your podcast today. I have been in corporate sales for many, many years and about five years ago, I really started taking notice of how people were showing up and as people change in their careers as entrepreneurs or even as a CEO of a company, how we show up every day, it really does make a difference and people take seven seconds to make a first impression. And in sales, it's really critical. So that's where I really tuned into that. And I've had a love of fashion all my life, but tying these two together, it really made sense. And then during the pandemic, I really took notice of that. And I did some research and found there is a mental phenomenon called enclosed cognition. And it's actually our mental attitude of how we show up makes a difference in how we perform. So for instance, if we show up in our workout clothes, then our brain and our mind think we're going to go work out. But if we're wearing our workout clothes all day to work at our business, we are going to be shifted just a little bit. We're not going to be as productive as we probably could be if we were actually dressed for a work day. So there really is, it's a true mental effect that we have on how we show up in the world. And so between the my sales and bringing in the fashion together, I really have found it's, it makes a big difference. And we're living in this hybrid world where people are just really confused about how they show up, what they wear. They're working from home. Does it really matter? And yes, it does. So I think that's actually, it's a perfect launching point is in the last couple of years since COVID things have changed dramatically. And definitely you see some interesting things when you're in a zoom call or teams or whatever it is that you happen to be on. Some people are dressed very well professionally and some are very casual. And so I think we're just starting with that. Does that, does that rule still hold? Is it, is it a little bit different when you're not in person or is it really the same, should you count it as in person if you're going to be on a camera like that? I think you do. I mean, it's how, and I think even more so we're looking at ourselves when we're on that camera now. So before people were just observing you and you don't see yourself all day long. But when you're on a zoom call, you're looking at the reflection of yourself and it can play games with your mental attitude, because if you don't feel like you're looking your best, it's going to, it's going to change how you show up. Even on, you know, especially on the zoom calls. So with those, I guess just as slight segue or side trip there is do you, how do you see and, and, or does it factor in when people have like a, you know, they have like a, just an image of them instead of, you know, your, your, just your, your headshot or whatever it is, as opposed to on a camera, what would you maybe recommend in dealing with those situations, either how, maybe what some recommendations about that headshot, and then also maybe when to use it, when not. I really think that if you're on a call with clients, especially you should use your fate, you should not just have your picture at first of all, you should use a professional headshot for that, for that little picture of yourself. If you're not going to have your camera on, it should not just be your initials. I think they need to see who you are. And, but ideally we really need to turn on our cameras and show who we are face to face, it's how people will connect with you and see you differently versus just a picture of someone. And I think that does make a difference. And so, and then circling back a little bit on that whole, how you see yourself and that mental phenomenon, what is, and particularly, cause now we have, we have varying roles in, you know, professionally is what, is there something, is there like a way that you probably should dress if you're, let's say an accountant or maybe a way you should dress if you're, I mean, I think sea level, we probably have certain, you know, picture of, you know, people in suits and things like that. But then once you get down into, in sales, I think some people are like, sort of the same thing. It's just going to be very well dressed. But if it's your day to day job, are there, are there maybe some things or some, some keys that some people can take that can say, oh, you know, if I dress this way or if I do it, take this approach, then I am going to be more productive. I'm going to feel more at work and more comfortable. Well, I think there's a rule and it's always been this way even before we, even before COVID it's you dress for the job that you want or the business that you want to get. So thinking of entrepreneurs, if you're wanting to land this client, you want to show up in a way that they can relate to you. So you want to dress similar to how they dress. You know, it can be all across the board. It's a much more casual world that we live in now, even, you know, finance used to be suits and ties and now they're wearing blazers with jeans. So I think you could do a little research if there's a specific industry that you're working with and how they're dressing. But I think especially when you're on a Zoom call, if you just have a nice shirt or blouse, something that's colorful, something that looks good on you that you feel good in and then the bottoms, you don't have to worry about that, but at least that you're showing up from, you know, your waist up that you do look presentable. And once you get three or four different outfits or tops that you can wear, then I think it's just those are your go-tos and you just grab them and put them on and you don't have to think about it. And that makes it really easy. Are there, because you mentioned being colorful and things like that. So in your business casual kind of stuff, are there certain colors maybe that people should be drawn to or avoid? Or, I mean, because I've seen some things about different colors and vote, different emotions of that. Is that something that you should be thinking about as part of putting together your go-to list of top clothing? I think you don't want to have anything that's too distracting. I'm not a big believer in, there are some things that you, you know, certain like red, like I've got red on today. It's supposed to be more powerful. But I think it's how you feel and it's going to come across more than what that color is. So if you don't feel good in it, let's say I say wear red because it's going to make you stronger and you don't feel good in red. Well, it's not going to make you stronger. So I think you have to figure out those those colors that really work for you. And I wouldn't do anything loud, like I'm not a busy, big, busy pattern or something that's distracting. So they keep looking at your clothes and they're not looking at you. It's just something. Think of it kind of like a frame of your face and a frame of who you are. So they it just enhances you and elevates you versus distracting. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Now, you did mention something you're comfortable in what so because of our because of the audience and particularly developers have always been, you know, comfortable, comfort over over style, basically, because you just you're sort of used to not being in front of people very much. If you're not comfortable in anything, let's say other than a, you know, a T-shirt, what would you recommend for somebody to that that should because I don't think there's any I don't think there's a job that you're going to be on Zoom where a T-shirt is going to be the norm. You're probably going to have to step it up a little bit. What would you recommend so that people can maybe get comfortable or find a way so that they don't feel like they've for lack of a better term overdressed, you know, stepping into a call? I mean, I think you could do something so simple for men, I would say, you know, just a polo shirt is as one up level up from just a T-shirt. So it's got gives you something with a collar, just, you know, very simple collar, a cotton. So it's comfortable. It doesn't have to be a stiff button up shirt. I think that's a nice up level for women. It's kind of the same thing. Just take it one more up level instead of wearing a T-shirt or a sweat, you know, sweatshirt, wear a nice sweater or wear something that's just just one level up from what you normally wear. And it doesn't again, I think a collar kind of frames you and just makes it look a little dressier, but it doesn't have to be a big, you know, a very stiff shirt or something. Now, you mentioned dressing to that. There's that old saw about you dress for the position that you want, but you also mentioned matching the people you're with. So particularly, and this is particularly if you're in a customer facing kind of a call where you're or you're you're dealing with people outside of your normal group. How do you how do you do that? Do you I mean, because it could be two different levels of dress. Do you do you take it to that higher level or do you try to be more so that you stick out a little bit that you're like, oh, hey, they're they're well dressed or is it better to be more of a I guess we'll call it a blend and kind of matching the style around you? I think it doesn't hurt to step up a little bit. I'll use an example that I was very fortunate this last spring, I was able to take a trip to Japan, which was on my bucket list forever. And something I noticed there is the way that people dress. You never saw anyone on the streets in sweats, pajamas, the way we see people here in the United States. And the thing that really I took away from that is called just its respect. And so I think when you're showing up for your clients, I just keep that really resonated with me when I'm showing up for my clients. I respect them. So I'm going to step up a little bit more. So I do think we want to take it not that you want to be wearing a suit if they're wearing t-shirts and jeans, but you want to just you just want to up level it slightly so that you're you know, you can find out what they're wearing. You can Google it and see what whatever that industry is, what what their work attire is. And it'll tell you what that is. And you can just you want to mirror it with just a little bit up level. If that makes sense. That makes sense. I do want to explore a little time because you've been doing this for a while. You said, you know, especially you've done some research and looked in it. So how and you have mentioned that things have changed. What are some maybe in your research because you've lived it as well, too, you know, at least in recent years. What was maybe or maybe some surprises that came out of that that research or some things where you're like, oh, well, I guess I didn't realize that that styles had changed this way or anything, something like that. Maybe a couple of nuggets that you learn while you're doing that. I think the biggest thing that I learned from all of it is that just how it just it is a different world that we live in, but it's still the same in the sense that we do have to get dressed, even if you're working from home, I think that's the biggest takeaway from it. That I feel like when we were first when we first stepped into the pandemic, it just blew us all out of the water. Like we just no one knew how to respond, how to react. Everything, our whole world turned upside down. But then as we got through it, then we started working in a different way. But I really believe that it was that even though we're working from home, I think that's the biggest thing I can say. You still need to get up and get dressed. And if you're going to go work out, come home, take a shower and get dressed for the day. So this sort of leads into another little tricky one for for people like myself and I think some of the people in the audience. What if somebody you're working with doesn't really have style or doesn't know what style looks like? How do you what are maybe some recommendations to besides just maybe looking at pictures of clients and trying to match their clothing? But something that particularly if it's something that you want to be have your own personality, be unique and not feel like you're just another like another stamp, but you know, but have some style. Where are some places you can go or how would you get somebody started in getting a basic couple of basic style skills, I guess? I think the first place to look is in your closet, because I think we do. And I worked in so many clients closets to see what they already own. And they already have nuggets in their closet. They don't realize that they do have style. And I'm a firm believer that we need to be authentic to who we are. I don't think there's a cookie cutter like, you know, you should wear a certain uniform. But once you discover yours and I think if you're not sure, look in your closet first would be my first recommendation. What are the things that you put on that you absolutely feel great in? That's a big because, you know, there's days that you put something on. You're rocking it. You're more productive. You just feel better. People compliment you, what have you. You know what those are. And so once you kind of redo an inventory of that, you can. That's the first place to start. Second place, a lot of people use is Pinterest and a crazy place to start. But just like, you know, like I'm a I'm a developer and I what, you know, developer style or something like that. And it'll show you some things and then you can see what other people are wearing. So then look to see what resonates with you. And if something resonates with you, then that's more of your style. But make it you make be authentic. I'm a huge believer in that. But we all have style in us. We just have to pull it out. And it doesn't take much to pull that out. So this goes to just an image that I had as you were talking through this, especially in the world of Zoom and things like that and not in-person type of meetings. Right. How if you've got your go to, you know, shirt or two, what should be what should be your consideration about like rotating your your favorite shirt or your favorite coat? You only need three or four. I mean, you think about it like how you're probably not with the same clients every day. So I think if you have three or four, that's plenty. And then you can have a different one each. You know, if you had four, you'd have one for most days of the week. And give yourself that break. On Fridays, you just want to be in your T-shirt and whatever. That's fine, too. Like you you don't have to. I'm not saying you have to get up and get dressed every single day, but most days you should. So that would be my thing. I would say five, four go to shirts that you know always work and you feel good and you and pay attention to that, how you feel in them, because that's how you'll be more productive if you're feeling good about yourself. So is that how so how you you solve the you know, the the quintessential somebody looking in their closet for 15 minutes, trying to figure out what they're going to what they're going to wear for the day? Yes. So what I even suggest to people is even take a selfie. So if you're wearing something that you feel good in, take a selfie so you remember what it was, because we forget to. And we you know, we wear it's like the old 80 20 rule. We wear 20 percent of what's in our closet, but know what those are. And if you're wearing something that doesn't feel good, then don't put it back in your closet so that when you open up that closet, only things that you feel good in and that you wear are in there. You want to start eliminating some things, because I think that's part of the problem, too. There's just so much in our closet that we don't know what to wear. Yeah, I definitely I can relate to that and give an amen. And I'll leave you on that one. There's stuff like I don't know why that's still in there. Right. Right. And our and our world changed. So two years or three years ago, we were wearing different things. So there's things I've taken had people take suits out of their closet and don't put them back in because you're not wearing them anymore. And it's confusing. It's a world that it's a person that you were before. And you're not now. So be the person you are today. And I think there's something about that when you look in that closet like, well, should I be wearing that? No, I don't wear that anymore. And that's OK. Well, is that something is that sort of you see as a maybe a natural evolution that people get will have their their go to for a while and then maybe come back in six months or a year and say, I think I want to change it up a little bit. Absolutely, because we do change our life. And I think that's something as I've aged, I've noticed that how I how I dress has changed as well. So we show up differently. We dressed a little bit differently. And I think that you should keep it modern and keep it fresh because that that resonates with your clients and that people can see you as somebody that's not, you know, they don't look like they've been dressing from something 20 years ago. So how often do you with your clients, do you recommend sort of like a periodic regular review and update stuff to stay modern? Or is it just you think that should people just sort of what you feel is is good will will guide you. I think it will guide you, but I think every season. So and I say just twice a year, take a take an inventory of what you have. So you look at your winter clothes or your fall and winter and then spring and summer and then just maybe add one or two pieces each season. I'm a huge believer in shopping or closet. I don't like when people go out and spend a ton of money. I don't think you need to go buy a whole new wardrobe. But if each season you add one or two pieces, that's just new and modern for that season, then that keeps it fresh and maybe get rid of something that you're not using anymore. That makes sense. It's a good, yeah, good way to sort of. You don't do you don't have to do a complete overhaul kind of a thing. You make it makes it very streamlined. And then you shop with intention to because, you know, I mean, especially for women, we are terrible about we have a special event and we go out and buy something new and then we never wear it and it sits in the closet and it's got tags on it. You feel guilty. So that's a big deal. I'm on the other side. It's like it sits there and it gets warm for 20 years and say, OK, now it's it's ready. It's time to move on. It's time to see what a tag looks like and put it in there. Right. So where is I do want to go back to initial that concept of having this sort of mental focus and I'd like to talk a little bit more about that is how do you once or where did that come from? And maybe if you can give a little more details of what is it that if possible, what is it that that gets us into that that helps set us? What are some of those things that are those markers or whatever? They're like, hey, you're you're in workout mode or you're in work from home mode or you're in, you know, whatever your mode is. I think you just have to think about your life and your business and where you're at. So I think about things like if you're doing a presentation, first of all, you want to be wearing something that it fits you well. You want to be pulling and tagging out. So you'll know that's something that I wear for presentations, a little bit more upleveled. If you're on Zoom, you have a few outfits for that. But I think it kind of goes. It does vary. So I don't think there's a certain there's a certain uniform for each one. And it's hard to say because a different clients, I think it's what industry you're you're presenting to will make it will make a difference in that. So it's a little there is a little bit of a gray area, but I do think you really have to think about what your day is going to look like and how you want to show up for the day. It's just taking that that how you want to in the business side of it. So just thought of this is what what do you see as far as maybe regional or larger like geographical, you know, if you're in different countries or things like that, is how have you seen that these rules sort of hold only in certain areas? Did that does it vary or is it I mean, other than and there are some examples like as you mentioned, Japan that are different on the street, but from a professional business point of view, is it more consistent across the board or is there a lot of variance there, too? I think there is some variance when you go international. I think in the United States, we could be very similar. I mean, there's some like on the West Coast and in the United States, we might be a little bit more casual. And I still think the East Coast is a little bit more buttoned up. But I think because of Covid and we're all online now, I think it's it's everybody has relaxed in how they're getting dressed for business now. But I do see like even when I was in Japan, there's a lot of people wearing suits to work. I mean, I saw a ton of suits, women and men. I think when you get into some of these other countries in Europe, I think that they're a little bit more casual like we are. So there is some difference. But I do believe that in the last couple of years, things have stepped down as far as the formality of how you dress for work. And but you do need to keep it separate, too, because what you wear to work and what you go out with your friends or you're out with your family, whatever that is, it should be something different. You want to you want to know when I put this shirt on, I'm going to work because that's my this is my work outfit. So I think again, it goes back to that in clothed cognition. So now my mind is saying I got my work shirt on. It's a workday versus I'm putting on this T-shirt and I'm going out for a hike with my my kids. Another great point there as you as you're talking to it, are you? Do you see that? A lax or the relaxing of dress code, is that also carrying forward as people are returning to work? Or is that more of a is it more like if you're online, it's it is. But if you're in the business world, it's business as usual. If you're back in it. So it's definitely changed when you go into the office. But that's what's so hard right now is because of this hybrid world where some days you're in the office, some days you might be working online or you're just at home with not any face to face interaction. So there is it's it's I'm working with companies now where I'm helping them like get their whole team together on how you show up, because like even when I mentioned before, the financial world, they used to wear suits, they don't do that anymore. Even in the office, they're wearing blazers and jeans. But then they have some of their team members are showing up in jeans with holes in them. Well, that's not what they want you to do. So there's you got to have there's still a dress code. And I think companies really need to get their arms around that. So if you want your team to show up in your office, you need to give them some guidelines on what you'd like that to look like. So you do you do dress different than when you go to the office and when you're working from home. Yes, you do. And it's going to be stepped up a little bit. And you're dressing from head to toe, right? So I could be sitting here with a great shirt on and sweatpants and no one knows it. But if I'm going to the office, I got to be dressed from head to toe. Yeah, that's true. Now, are you saying that actually gets in another area is, are you saying that companies now are needing to spend a little bit more time and put together a dress code maybe than they they had in the past? I think in some places in the past, it was, you know, you show up and it's just you're in a suit or, you know, you're what it's there was only a couple of things they had to cover. Is it you think it's becoming a little more challenging for them to say this is what this this looks like? Very much so. And I think what we've lost is the culture. So the company has a certain culture and that's your brand. And so when people are showing up at your company, you want them to be part of your brand and culture. And that has been very confusing. You've got people all across the board dressing in different ways. And so that's what we're trying to do is pull these teams together so that they're dressing in a way that's that's that it resonates with that brand and that culture. So, yes, very much. So I think companies, they don't they don't realize how far opposite they got through these last three years. And so now it's like they've got to get their arms around it again. It doesn't have to be strict, but just some guidelines, I think, because employees are confused. They don't know what to wear. No, so think about that hybrid model where maybe you're, you know, two days a week, you're remote and three days a week, you're in an office with that that concept of dressing. These are my work clothes or these are my not work clothes. Do you recommend that people just even if they're even if they yeah, if they're at home, I guess they can, you know, they wear sweatpants or whatever. But do you recommend sort of having the same use the same clothes regardless whether you're in and out of the office or is it is it OK to have my my work from home clothes and then my work in the office clothes? I think it actually I think it would help you to have make them the same because then it gives you that mindset that you're at work. You've been if I'm at work at my desk in my home office, I'm at work. So, again, you don't have to wear shoes and all that. But I think you do. I think that's the easiest way to say that when you go to work it from home, think you're going to the office because you want to show up the same way, because there's a huge productivity and confidence and how you feel will make a huge difference in your entire day. So I would say, yes, you should dress the same way you're going to the office. And again, give yourself a break on Fridays. I'm not doing that. I'm going to be real casual on Fridays. And that's OK. Like we need, you know, it's hard to get up and get dressed at home. Like it's it's but I think if we we create that habit, we wouldn't have gone to work that way before. If we were in the office, we would have never showed up to work in sweats and a T-shirt. So what if you get up in a situation where you're on that, you're in that group where that is the the look that everybody's given up and they're just in sweats and a T-shirt, you know, you can tell on the zoom call. I mean, probably not in the office or not going to do that. But if just everybody's there, do you recommend that everybody that you still, I guess, are the take the high road in that case and dress professionally versus or just say, forget it, I'm going to run around a T-shirt like everybody else. I think really check in to see how you feel. So, I mean, like I think like my son is I have a son that's he just graduated from college and he's new at into the work field. And he worked for a software company and he's remote almost 100 percent, I'd say 99, 95 percent of the time. But he always shows up and they're very casual, but he shows up in a nice black T-shirt. So it looks nicer like it's a T-shirt, but it looks nicer. His hair, you know, he shaved his hair is short and it's it's or however, you know, it's he's clean, you know what I mean? So he's showing up in their dress code, but he's showing up a little bit up leveled, if that makes sense. So I think there is a way, you know, and there's generations we're talking about, too. So that generation is going to show up differently than probably my generation. And we have different ways that we would never show up in a certain. But I think you can. It always is good to up level just slightly, just even if it's if everybody's in T-shirts and sweats. But at least like I've seen people that are even comb their hair like at least, you know, like take a shower, comb your hair for women, put a little makeup on. If that's what you do, just like show up a little bit better. Spend a couple of minutes and think about it before you jump on the camera. Well, absolutely. I always joke about that. And then people don't turn their cameras on because they're not dressed for the day. And then that's not a good thing either, because you you're literally that just showing that you didn't show up for the day. And I always joke and say you wouldn't go to a conference and put a bag over your head because you weren't ready for the day. So, you know, you have to act as if I always say, get ready for your at your desk. Because if someone was to call me and say, let's hop on a zoom, I'm ready. I don't have to think, oh, my gosh, I got to go brush my teeth or whatever. You know, so because we we got pretty lazy during Covid. I mean, really lazy. And granted, again, we our mental brains were going through something horrific. But now we need to get back to the way we work. That's the that's the past. So is it again, sort of revisiting a little bit of that mental that it's set mindset part of it? Was there a do you think did you see it? Maybe there was a transition of what our mindset was during Covid while it was pretty much everything was remote versus now we're getting back to that? Is that you saying that it's sort of a shift in, I guess, back to a work mode or was it a different work mode while everybody was in that remote? I think it was accepted then. And now it's not accepted anymore. People people aren't as forgiving as they used to be. It used to be very forgiving because you had your kids at home and you had. I mean, you just your everybody was home trying to juggle all this stuff together. So there was a lot of grace around it. But now that's not the case. We're back to we're back to work like we were before. And we need to even if you're remote, you still got to you got to show it. So what is let me tell me a little bit about your from your consulting side, your your business and what you do is what who are your sort of who are your customers? What are they? What do they come to you with? And how do you sort of start that conversation with them? So I really when I first started this business about five years ago, I was working strictly one on one with clients. Then now after the pandemic, I started really realizing that this whole hybrid workforce was really confused. They didn't know what to wear. So now I've started working with companies and I actually go in and I'll do kind of a team building mini workshop where we talk about, first of all, work with either the HR person or even marketing, too, just to find out what kind of culture they want, how they want their team to show up. And then we just give them tools on how to clear a little clutter out of their closet, how to make things look better, how to find their personal style. And then the companies have found that it just really it's again, it's kind of a team building where they it uplifts them all. And then they all are on the same level because they all have taught. They've all learned the same thing. And now when they're on the Zoom call, they're noticing what people are wearing because they've all kind of gone through this and they're all trying to to do better. And they realize that they can do better. And there's always going to be the outlier that doesn't want to cooperate, of course. But for the most part, companies are finding that it's bringing that culture back. And that's been a huge thing. That's very different now. So you see that they sort of get a sort of like within the organization and accountability almost of like, hey, you're on the call. This is what's expected. And then you look around and like, oh, I fell short today or OK, I'm good. And I'm feeling all right. We're good. We're good to go for the call. Yeah. And then people will compliment you or that's what I've got some feedback that I've got that people compliment you. And then they build your confidence a little bit that, OK, yeah, I am showing up better. So and you kind of compete a little bit in a sense in a good way that you're just trying to everybody's trying to show up in a better way. Yeah. And that's I think that's what you want is you particularly in sales and those kinds of marketing and that where you want to put that best foot forward, then it helps others to see that you're stepping it up a little bit. Right. And if you have a team and if you have a company and you want to make sure that when they are showing up without the inside team and they're showing up client facing, you want to make sure that they're showing up to represent your brand. So with all of this and especially because you've got you've been doing a lot and work with individuals as well as companies. And I can I could tell there's people out here listening that are like, you know, we could probably use a little bit of a crash course and getting a little more style into our group or prove our meetings. Howard, what are some of the best ways for people to get a hold of you or to reach out to you and see if they can get some help? The easiest way is you can go to my website, which is graceful impression.com. And you can look at the it's called the professional styling workshop is what that is. And there's a little box you can hit on just to connect with me for a 15 minute chat. And we can talk about your company to see if there's a fit. It's just a free consultation just to see what your goals and objectives are and if I can help you or not. So that's probably the easiest way. But graceful impression.com. OK, excellent. Well, we will have that. I'll make sure I get that link into the the show notes for everybody, as well as any other information here about you. Mostly just looks like just hit that site and spend a little time and see if they can see if it's something where it's a good fit for you guys. But I want to I want to be respectful of your time and thank you for this has been this has been great. It's been a lot of like I said, I think a lot of people are have a sore hand from writing notes down and like, oh, yeah, we should think about that. Oh, and there's probably going to be a lot of people with a little more room in their closets after this is a little bit. Yeah. And for those things that they haven't warned about. Yeah, it's we just don't talk about this. And it seems like such a what I wear it with. I can't really matter, but it really, really does. And we can be better at our jobs in our world and our work and all that. I just really feel strongly about that. Yeah. And it is definitely, as you mentioned, is I think there's a generational thing. Like, I know my kids are have grown up in a very different environment from soup to nuts, whatever they do. It's a different dress code, dress style. And they just yeah, I don't I don't see kids. I can see kids today or whatever. But I don't see kids today. Even if you look in their 20s, they'll dress up. But generally speaking, it's a much more relaxed and casual look, particularly if you go back 100 years ago or 80 years ago back to the you know, the the people they were always dressed up, they go to you and see shots of baseball games or everybody in the field is, you know, they're in suit and tie and all that. You don't see anybody in a suit these days, maybe the coach, if you're lucky. Right, right. It's very true. But again, you want to be modern and relevant. So even as we age, we want to be modern and relevant with the younger generation just to make sure that we're all on the same. So it's we're relatable. It's it's very important. Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Again, it goes back to that connecting. If you're going to sell to somebody or market somebody, then you want to be able to connect with them and be able to relate. So you can get that seven seconds, seven seconds to make the first impression. So just make sure your camera's on and you don't have it pointed the wrong way the first seven seconds. OK, be ready. Face the camera. Big smile. There you go. Count to count to seven and you're safe. Yes. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. We'll let you get back to it and we'll I'm sure we'll catch you next time around. OK, Rob, thank you so much for your time. I appreciated the opportunity to be on your podcast. And that will wrap it up. I want to thank you for your time and paying attention to this, because I think this is an area where we don't help each other enough. It's very easy for us to be very casual, very lax and how we approach our dress, particularly if you're one of those people that sits on Zoom calls and it's never a picture of it's never a live picture of you. It's just some either of an image or, you know, it may be a nice headshot that you have. But I think there's some things that we can take out of this that we need to think about to make ourselves look better, present better and move into that role of being a developer, a professional. And not just some script kiddie or somebody just writing code. Simple things like a really good headshot, as she mentioned. But also just being in a situation where you can be on a camera on a regular basis in your Zoom calls and present yourself to other people and not just be a goofy little icon that we all enjoy. We love doing our little JPEGs and stuff like that. But find some ways to show your your personality while actually showing your face as well. Hope this was helpful for you. We are not done with our interviews. We're going to come back next episode with yet another one. We're going to continue. Now, we're bouncing around a little bit on topics here, but there's just a lot of people out there that I think it's useful for us to connect with and to talk to and to to see some of these other points of view and maybe get out of our little box in our sort of daily headspace. Hope this is helpful for you. If you have any suggestions, questions, anything like that, you can always send us something info at developer.com or if you want to talk to Rob about anything, the links will be in the show notes. That being said, we give you your day back. So go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week. And we will talk to you next. Thank you for listening to Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Nor podcast. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, anywhere that you can find podcasts. We are there. And remember, just a little bit of effort every day ends up adding into great momentum and great success. Please check out school.develop-a-nor.com. 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