Human Centric Systems vs System Centric Systems

Welcome to Building Better Developers, the Developer Nord podcast, where we work on getting better step by step, professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing a season of interviews and, surprise, surprise, we have another interview. This time we're going to be speaking with Michael McGroosh and we're going to go all over the place a little bit. We're going to talk about systems and automated systems versus human centric systems and we're going to get into a little bit of the theory more than we're going to talk practical this episode in the next one. I really want this to be, as it was for me, sort of a think piece, something to really maybe get the wheels going a little bit on how do we build things? Why, more importantly, do we build things? And what's our purpose? To make sure that what we're doing is actually moving the ball forward, is actually helping, is actually causing people to become more productive instead of simply giving them something else to do. So let's go ahead and get started on that discussion and see where we go. Well, welcome back. And okay, today we are going to just buckle in. This is going to be a fun one, I think. We're speaking with Michael McGroosh and he will correct my pronunciation of his name in a moment here if I miss that up. We're going to change gears a little bit. We're going to talk a little bit about really like the why, which is something we talk about a lot, but we're going to really get back, step back a little bit and talk about the why of about content and AI and all of these other things. We're going to cross a lot of lines here, I think, but it's one of those that as us looking as whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you're doing it as a product, whether it's a service, whether it's content, it's really getting back to why are you doing it? What are you doing? What is your focus? And I think you're going to walk out of this one probably with a notebook full of notes and some things that you really want to think about as you're moving forward and being, I think we're going to find it's about being intentional in how you promote stuff and how you grow. But that being said, he's got a lot of thunder, so I'm not going to be stealing any of the thunder from him, but I want to introduce you and allow you, Michael, to just sort of bring us first of all your background and your passion and we're going to dive right into it. So welcome to the podcast. Thank you Rob for giving me a canvas to paint. I was born in Vienna. I wanted to keep that very quick. So the reason why I came to all this awareness was because I was a sick child born in Vienna, Austria. I came here when I was still America when I was 20 and living in south of Los Angeles, Laguna Beach. I was my whole life couldn't fit into systems. That means when I was seven, I got laid in school. I got neurodiversity. I couldn't read. I wrote six books and I can't read them. So I have to computer read them to me. But creation and my passion and for art allowed me to work, you know, 12 hours, 16 hours without feeling exhausted, without feeling stressed. And then I found out why is that? And I still have a hard time fitting into systems. I can't even do my own. My own broadcast is 30 seconds, which is just a quotes because of my neurodiversity. So I'm my value for people like entrepreneurs and business people and system navigators is because I could never I have a look at systems outside of systems because I could never fit in. And so I have a human look. So I said, what kind of look can I have if I don't know how the system function? I have a look from why do we do what we do? So why am I doing what I do? Why have a hard time to fit in? You know, what is my worth and value? And then I found out, for example, in nature, we have we are a creature of nature. We are not a system creation. So we are a system of nature, a creature of nature. And we are in nature. You are worthy because you exist. I think that's one of the core knowledge that I want to communicate in nature. Everything that exists, every living being that exists is worthy to be because there's not too many elephants, there's not too many ants, there's not, you know, and they all have a part in the whole. And why? Because nature is doesn't make mistakes. We know that we know in covid in two years that nature goes right back and balances itself because balance again, a keyword balance and harmony is what keeps you sustainable and what keeps you in balance. And so when I'm saying so the difference between and that's why I think art is so important to understand the art creation. This is where I dove in. Because when you look at a symphony orchestra or a sea level in in businesses in the symphony orchestra, everybody, if the light doesn't go on, if the curtain doesn't open, you can have the best theater, the best conductor, the best first violinist. And nothing happens because the always screws up. That doesn't this. And that's why I'm saying art is a blueprint. What's possible? How a teamwork can be where everybody is included and the leader is not, you know, on the on the the last floor in a corner office. But he's a part of the whole thing and he knows everything and he's balancing everything. It's not like, oh, the guy doesn't put that iPhone down together, right, or that sandal, right. So we got just exchange him. You know, so everybody knows from top to bottom in the arts, knows how everything functions, not perfectly. Obviously, the conductor doesn't play it all the way, but or violin, perhaps he does. But, you know, that's not a requisite. But he knows how everything functions. And that's why I, you know, because I my whole life was supported by when I was 30, I realized, damn, I'm an artist. I don't need to be system elected as being an artist because all my jobs were artists, art related. Like I sold tapes out of my car. I produced fashion shows. I worked in advertising. I mean, not so many like so many neuro diverse people, so many jobs. So I'm like like everywhere. So that's gave me and I say the parallel in those and my neuro diversity allows me to see context. And so I think the business, what I see is the weakest thing in business. The biggest problem currently is not a. It's that we are so good. Humans are so good. That we everybody has a podcast. Everybody has a website. Everybody has everything. Like, remember when when we started with the with the websites and nobody had a website, no artists had a website. You know, everybody has now super website, you know, blogs, all these system work. And we have too many products. And what I find and I think this is the biggest thing for humanity. We don't have the time to meet the right person. And even if we let's say we have to set sales funnel and everything set up. How do you have the time to get I get I mean, how many books do you get for free? You don't have the time of them to read the news leaders, too. So everything becomes an attention grabbing thing. So then I go into human centric and say, why do humans want attention? Attention is to commit to connect. And you can't connect. That's why in systems, because systems are, you know, they're not humans. It's all about attention so that you connect. But when you don't have time to connect, see that this is, you know, that makes all logical sense. Linear sense makes you get attention. You connect. You get him into you get him a free newsletter. You get him something free. Get him into the sale funnel. Establish a relationship. And then there might be a thing. I mean, I love that process has become so long because you're not going to go in. You know, when there's five car dealerships, you just go in one and the guy lulls you in and you buy the car. That is done. You can shop everything. It's so systemic. Our our life in business has become in general, has become so systemic that we lose why we're doing it in the first place. And we don't have the time to connect. We don't have to. We have too many products. We have no time to find the products. We don't have to find the time to find, let alone the people that could actually help us or work with us, because we know a team is always better than one person. We know that, you know, if you have two people that run a company, it's way easier than one person, you know, and there might be conflicts, but still the conflicts are teaching you, you know, that they're good things. So basically, that's I think we should talk about this. How can we be more effective as humanity? Not being more system effective, just as humans. How can we circumvent that systemic effort that we have that costs us only life force? We're working till 60 years old. And then we have to week to actually enjoy our retirement because we are so exhausted because we constantly adapting. And there's so much adaption going on. You know, religious have to do this. Business have to do this. Government has to do this. School have to be this image. And so we constantly adapted. And it costs us a ton of energy. You know, ask me whatever you want. Well, I think the first thing is, and so. And you sort of stem across one, I think, from the systemic point of view is that I think when you mentioned, you know, sales funnels and that is that's there are thousands, I don't know, millions of products that it's it's all about the funnel, create the funnel, systematize it, get, you know, and it is that's the I think that's the challenge that we have, whether we're artists or business producing a service or product is there's so much noise. It's how do you how do you find that attention? Because you really. Yeah, and that's I guess for some of us, we have to think about that maybe. But I think for a lot of us, so it's natural. That's like we don't want we don't want everybody's attention. We want the attention of the people that we can connect to, that we can help. So it feels like it's a little bit of a chicken and egg problem. It's like you've got to get somebody into that funnel to get to building that relationship, as you said. You know, you you get down there and eventually now now we've connected and now we can build that relationship. But we would love to be able to have that relationship minus the funnel. Get that system out of the way and go build that relationship. So how do we how do we tackle that? How do we look at that to to maybe to still be able to separate ourselves from the masses, but also to get to the people that need to to hear that voice? I will tell you, I cannot promise you any steps, actually, because I am against steps. I think just the awareness to listen to this podcast, the awareness. We are not aware of human centricity and system relevant. If you can separate the two, yes, system relevant. I need to have a lot of viewers. And as you and everybody else confirms that, it's not the numbers of viewers, the numbers of things. It is there finding the right person. And I think system problem, that system, the system that we created, there's no way to blame that system problems, systems that created human problems. Cannot be fixed by systems. So Black Lives Matter doesn't take away racism, genderism, woman and man, which is actually all gender, race, sexuality is all a system classification that became a stereotype and that we accepted. And then all of a sudden we say, oh, we are sexist. We are racist. We are. So it can't do that. And what it sells you, but the system needs to sell because it's going on a constant lack. We have not enough. We need more and more and more. And if you can just separate that and say, what is human centric? And so when you feel stress, when you feel anxiety, when you feel like I don't know what to do next, look at your problem and say, is that a human centric problem? Like my daughter is sick. That's a human centric problem. Or is it they want to do they want to go cheaper on the market and they need me today. They need all decks on hand to get that product off that system centric. So when your daughter is sick, you stay with your daughter. You shouldn't even feel guilty. But tell me who of us doesn't feel guilty that they don't go to work. We are so conditioned over generations that even a mother. I'm not even talking about us guys. I'm talking a mother feels guilty not to go to work, not because she runs out of money. It's not even about that. You know, take the money away. She still feels, hey, I am, you know, committed to these people doing the business and whatever. And I feel guilty to stay at home with my daughter. That's when you get aware of this. What are my problems? Why am I anxious? Why am I not happy? Why I'm not fulfilled? Because the fulfillment is being with your daughter, being with your family, doing the things your hobbies, that is life fulfilling. You think, OK, that life has sense and makes sense. I like to go golf, play golf. That is it makes sense. So when you feel like that and you can separate that, OK, is that system relevant or human centric? That is the biggest breakthrough. I hit the wall till I was 55 and I worked with great people and it was not fulfilling. I mean, I worked with Robert Evans from Godfarm. I co-produced him. I was city arts commissioner. It wasn't fulfilling. I have all these system accolades and I talked to people, have Oscars and accolades, and it's not happened. It was a short little, you know, jolt of fulfillment. And then we're not happy. So that's why I'm saying focus on human centric, because when you meet with your body, what are you guys doing? The five minutes you're just joking around, have fun. You women do the same thing when they go out by themselves. So try to go human centric, focus on the human centric and give it priority. No, I have to be human centric first. And then I'm using the system that I can survive and whatever. But still, the human centric needs to be first. I think once we get that, then we don't care about so much if how many views we have, how many likes we have, how many titles we have after our update, how many podcasts we put out, because you meet people. And that's why podcasts are so great, because you're meeting the person. And that's why I invest into podcasts, because in the podcast, you meet people from all around the world as a human, not like I'm going to sell you something. This is not a sales podcast. This episode, at least, because I have nothing to sell. You have nothing to sell. So we're not selling. We trying to get a grip ourselves on what the hell are we doing? You know, and then once we know what we're doing, if it's, you know, then we know what we're doing and we use the system to do that. So the next step of that, which is not a step, but once you're aware of human centric and system centric, is that you. You do that, you look at your business and say. Is that business? An extension of me or because my dad gave it to me or my brother gave it to me or talked me into it. Is this I mean, if I want to be. You know, I want to be a doctor, but I'm born in a company that does rivets. I mean, this is like makes no sense why. I know the rivets gave me a lot of money and a doctor is a lot of effort to be a doctor, but. You know, it doesn't make sense, because if you have no passion, you don't even know why you're doing it. And anything you do for money, anything you do for money can never be human fulfilling unless you love money so much. And then I say, why do you do a company? Do go into financial business. There's enough be a venture capitalist. There's so much going on. You could just you just if you work in a bank, if I love money. See, I love art. I do art. If you love money, money go in the banking business. I mean, this, you know, and that's why we are so screwed up in this, because you see banks go bankrupt. The people even don't like to work in banks that they love money. They work in businesses and then banks go go under. Banks should never go under. The only business is to handle money. So that's the disturbance of of we are all system relevant. We are not human centric. We're not saying, oh, it's important that I meet you, Rob. That is more important than having, you know, 15000 more likes today because I have an imprint of all my six senses with you. And I say, oh, my God, that is very fulfilling. That's why you're doing the podcast. There's no money in broadcasts, you know, one percent less than one percent. Ninety nine percent of the revenue that's done in podcasts. So if we were doing this for money, we are at the wrong place. But a lot of people allow themselves their ego to say, oh, yes, but the money. And then they find out they actually love the podcast because podcasting is a listening medium. Well, you listen to me, I listen to you and the audience listening. And it's it's it's this is one very powerful tool, you know, system tool that allows us to communicate and interact and exchange thoughts and and ideas and perceptions. And that's what life is. That's what the story is. It's we tell each other stories that we don't have to go through it. So if I tell you, you know, I went up Mount Everest and I almost died 15 times. Perhaps you wanted to always be a mountaineer. When you said I don't need that, after talking to Michael, I don't need that. I go, you know, play golf or play tennis and do something else. And that's how we relate to each other. So we can we can test out is this me is this not me? You know, is that having, you know, 15 woman? Is this a great experience to have 15 women? And then the guy tells you what stress he got. And you said, oh, my God, you know, I don't need 15 women. I'm happy with one or with none. You know, so so that's what I think. Really look at your business. And if that's really your passion, not because somebody told you, you should be that or school told you, you're the greatest calculus. You should go accounting. No, you should do. You should do what is your passion, what you could do every day. You know, if golfing is what you do every day, then become a golf teacher and get into the golfing business, sell golf clubs. I don't care. You don't have to be a golfer if you get. But if you if your whole passion is to watch golf all day long, then get in that business. If your passion is, you know, football, football, then get in that business somehow, you know, because even if you make little money in that, it carries you through because you love it so much. There's a lot that passion does, you know, said, hey, if I can just make it. That's why artists 97 to 99 percent of artists live around the poverty level around the world. There's no one. And and they are not conscious of it. They are also not conscious. They always say, oh, I'm horrible. They self shame themselves because their product isn't working. You know, their base doesn't sell, their painting doesn't sell. And they put themselves down. Entrepreneurs, when they create something, they create a widget. It doesn't sell it. They do something else. They create a bicycle. And it doesn't sell. They go into suits. So it's not the the business of, you know, of it. It's what you actually what's an extension of you. And in art, the people feel so good by creating. That they say, I can't even go into the into the eight to five job. I can't even go there because I experienced, you know, number one, that there is no system, you know, racism, sexism, there's all that stuff doesn't happen in in in in the arts. And everybody's a part of it. I hope that makes some sense. It does. And it's it's interesting. We've I was actually just on another podcast, sorry about that. Just the other day is the the idea of of less money and greater happiness is I think a lot of people don't there's they're too focused on. I've got to make money. I've got to survive. And I mean, there's a you know, there's the idea of a starving artist. You don't want to be happy, but be starving. But there is there are a lot of places you can go. As you mentioned, as you may maybe you love golf, but you're not going to be a professional golfer, but you can go work at a golf club. You can work at a golf. There's or these days you can have a podcast that talks about golf all the time. Yeah. That passion will come through and then you will get people that will. You will connect. This goes back to that personal side, that humanity side. You will connect because of that love of golf in that situation. And I think it's it's really timely that you come out. We're coming, you know, now as we're recording this, we're coming a couple of years or, you know, out of the covid shutdowns and all that. When everybody went from working in an office to working remote. And it's amazing how many people changed their focus to say, I don't like going to an office every day. I hate that. That that drains me. But I like doing my work. And if I can do my work remotely, then I'm happy. I'm in heaven. I could retire working from home. And now you're seeing people are saying, I will take a job that pays less, that allows me to work from home some or all of the time. And it's just a little like just a microcosm of that where people are seeing, hey, you know, there is that that humanity side is something that I want. I don't I don't need the money. I don't need the likes. I don't need the the ability to score my success other than am I happy? And so I want to sort of like jump into this next thing with you. So how do you I see and maybe you agree that we're actually getting away from that when you look at AI and auto generating content and all the emails and blogs and stuff like that, it seems like we're going even more so into systems as opposed to humanity side. So how do you see that? Or maybe how do we push back against that? Yeah. I you know, like you say, we feel that is important. But what I see when people just the sentence to staying at home, it is important if I look at that human centricly, we need each other. We are social herd animal. We need this even when we are alone in the woods. Who are you talking to yourself? You you are always a herd animal, even if you talk to yourself with yourself. And we feel, you know, it's it's it's more because we need to have time to digest this stuff. And I think the hybrid stuff is probably what will happen. That you need to still be together with other humans, even in a team, because the fulfillment in a team, if you have the right leader, can be fantastic with the leader just balances everything. And the team has got a team is boss. I always say that. And team that that is. And I'm in hospitality a lot because I was an artist. So I'm always a hospitality leader. So I I I know how to go to work where you are looking forward to work because you there's no hierarchy in putting people down or the dishwasher is exactly the same as the the the maître d or somebody else. It's just we all work as a team. And then when you get actually hit with, let's say a lot of people, the team is here. There's never anybody falling out. I found when you can get a family created in the team, they do everything. They go through fire for you. And and and that's one thing of that. And then you ask me how the AI is going to affect, right? How do you know? And modesty is another thing. Modesty in nature, you have. It's not like, oh, my God, I have to sacrifice that I don't have a car now. No, if you have 10 cars, perhaps you're better with five or three. It's the modesty. I'm not saying, you know, if you say, oh, I need to, you know, go on a vacation every year 10 times. No, you know, sometimes you might not go on a vacation. Or why can you not be fulfilled being wherever you are? See, that's the art of being human, to be fulfilled wherever you are. Your body is home, you know, and just just go that. And I think in nature, you have harvested, you know, do you have 15 harvester great and then you have three harvester that are horrible. So it's about it's not every year to make it bigger. It's about how to balance whatever happens and not to be super cautious. But living in a modest lifestyle is easier than expecting that next year is going to be more and better. So if you live modest, if something happens, you can balance that. You can't balance if you're not modest, if you're not humble, if you're hubris all the time, which systems are, you know, and there's nobody to blame. They need to live behind the people behind the system. They need to live also in the same lack. That's that the financial principles money is great, but the financial principles I antiquated put us all the time. Everything is a lack. We live in the systems when we're in nature, we're not in life just by feeling it. But what the moment we go into work, the moment we go into whatever system we are in government, whatever we deal with, we we feel we feel stressed. We feel diseased. All this stuff, because there's no fulfillment there. And I would say when I because everybody looks at AI, you know, this is really because I've like written 50 pages. I'm trying to to condense it now on AI. Because I look at it not from like everybody. Oh, you know, what can I do? Technically, I'm looking from it. What should I do humanly? I am actually putting AI since we created it below humanity and say, now show me what you can do for me, not what you can do systemically only, because we know, Rob, we know that. When the computer came and when the cell phone came, we now it it. Five times make we do five times to eight times more output per worker or employee. And we will pause there. We are going to come back next episode and we're going to continue our discussion. As you can see, we're going all over the place a little bit and drifting in and out of a couple of different topics. But I think this is really important for us to just sort of, like I said, get things going, think about this. It's definitely a very different point of view, particularly when he's talked about his background and the neurodiversity kinds of issues. It's one of those things that, yes, there are people out there that are not the, quote, norm. And we have to make sure that we, you know, one sense, we have to make sure that we're serving them as well with our products. But more importantly, this is where Michael's experience can help us look at. Are we helping even the the common people, the people that are most normally our, you say, our typical customer or our primary user base? Make sure that we're doing things with our why kept in mind. We're not done yet, though. We're going to come back next episode. We're going to continue and wrap up this conversation. So as always, go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week. And we will talk to you next time. Thank you for listening to Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Nor podcast. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, anywhere that you can find podcasts. We are there. And remember, just a little bit of effort every day ends up adding into great momentum and great success. Please check out school.develop-a-nor.com. That is where we are starting to pour a lot of our content. We've taken the lessons, the things that we've learned, all of the things that make you a better developer, and we're putting it there. We have a range of courses from free short courses up to full paid boot camps. All of these include a number of things to help you get better, including templates, quick references, and other things that make us all better developers.