Neurodiversity and the Human-Centric Approach

Welcome to Building Better Developers, the Developer podcast where we work on getting better step by step professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of interviews. We're wrapping up an interview with Michael McGroosh this time and we're going to continue talking about neurodiversity. We're going to talk about why. We're going to talk about is our solution, our product, the thing that we do that we're trying to help people with actually going to help them or are we just giving them something else so that they essentially run faster on their little hamster wheel but don't actually make any progress. We're really going to ask some questions that I think we need to all consider when we're building some of these things out and also talk a little bit about some examples of where that has been done right. So let's get right back into our conversation with Michael. Just by having the technology. What do you think? Now I'm asking you, did our salaries increase by eight times? No. Yeah, nor did we reduce the number of hours that we worked a week. Exactly. Because we have 24 hours available. We don't have sleep. We don't have sleep. So always look at this human centric thing. What do you think AI does when you get now you get 100 emails a day, then you're going to get 300 emails a day. But then because now you can go and delete, delete, delete, delete. You cannot delete, delete because they're all going to look like I just sent you a personal note after our broadcast or something. You would open that. But now if you get 300 emails, they all look like personal stuff, like a person wrote it or with headlines, they're all in Dicing. You know, then you it's like it's like the computer age times, you know, 300 percent. It's insane. So it's got to we produce more. We produce better. It's basically making us better workers. AI will make us less mistakes, less thing, but it will. It will not free us because time it didn't free our time. Technology never to freeze our technology always takes time because we patched that we upload, we do the software updates. We go through the emails. It creates time because it creates work. It creates more of everything. And therefore it takes us more time to resolve it. So, yeah, it's true that if if you can get an email in versus a letter that gets to you faster, but now you're not getting one letter. Now you're getting 100 letters a day and you have to go through them like in the old days. You got five letters, you read them and you did with them. Now you have to. So the whole thing that technology saves you time, it saves you time in a task. But ultimately, it takes that task and makes another task because the ultimate of system is always more better, bigger, cheaper. And that is conversely against the human centric because humans need to digest. See, I read this article where AI can check out how long you actually, you know, you're on a call service and you talk to people and you talk to 15 people and then you look out the window in nature. You know, there's a tree in front and you just, you know, to digest what you just talk to, to learn to grow from the 15 talks that you have to integrate what had happened, why this happened. And you look and AI doesn't see it as that. A human would see that another human. OK, that guy needs time to just drink a cup of coffee. You need sleep. But AI says, no, we're going to pay you only when you actually on the phone with another person. So this is this is going to be. We need to solve this like we do now. This is exactly the work we do talking about what is the human aspect? Why am I doing in this business? Why am I getting involved in this entrepreneurship? Why am I connecting with this company? Why am I go to sell for Amazon? Why? Because I hope I get I get a little bit off. Do I like it? Hey, if you love working for Amazon or do your own business for Amazon, by all means, if that is fulfilling, if you can't wait in the morning to package up stuff and bring it to the driver, absolutely do it. But but most people don't. Yeah. Well, that's one of the things that we've looked at. I know I've talked about a lot is the idea of using the systems to get the things done that you don't like to do. So if you're if you like the like, let's say the the presentation and the art side of of Amazon shop, but you don't like the back end of fulfillment and accounting is that you you systematize that so that then you can focus on the things you love. So how do you how do you see that? You know, this rise of systems and then how you I guess more using them as a tool as opposed to being used by those systems. I'm going back to the first it's human centric use. Human centric means humans first, not race, not sexuality, not gender, humans. Anybody is a human. See, everybody is a human human first and then use the systems like they are supposed to be. Why do we create? Why are we having a tribe? So that's why we did we look at that. Why did humans create a tribe that the mother doesn't need to steal her baby if she can give it to another tribesman and she can go in the woods and pick some berries? I mean, I'm going all the way. I think why we having governments. So we have public transportation. We have somebody takes care of the power, sewage, whatever. It is OK to have system as long as they serve you. But when they when they pivot over to all of a sudden, oh, now I'm going to ask for power for so much money. And you know, all of a sudden, your power bill is like that. Or and also it is not. You know, doing in this context. The power is is insane. We are in the digital world and it's a dependable technology that can be interrupted or disrupted by just turning off the power. Have we look what we humanly did? We didn't think it says, hey, before we start going into AI and all these technologies. And we moving into a digital world. Don't we need to get the juice first? I mean, why does that do? I never hear politicians talks about it. I mean, they say, yeah, we got to set the grid. No, no, no, no. What are we? We couldn't even make everybody electric car right now. And nobody talks about it because the sale, the systems relevant issue of sales is more important than the humans. And you can solve everything, Rob. From the day on, if you separate it, I guarantee your solution of stuff will be so much easier. And it will be so easy. And you will be fulfilled because, you know, hey, I know why I'm doing what I do. And I know I can trust humans. I cannot trust any system system can change everything. Look, you cannot trust the system because the system can be changed. How often do we get an update on terms and regulations? You have to determine the small print. How often we sign, by the way, we signed with technology all the liability whenever we agree to to us. So technology cannot be responsible, but at least the people. So we constantly check this out and we actually sign away that if something goes wrong, we are liable for it. So if we don't get power and all this stuff happens, guess who is responsible? Everybody and nobody. And that because everybody cannot be responsible forever. If we have a great problem. I'm not saying this is a fear mongering. I'm just saying, where's the lodging in that to create a system that is dependent on power and we don't have enough power and we cannot secure it and save it. So those are the things that you we need to think. And I say when when you have a systemic problem, just look at the human issue of that problem. Then the systemic problem is gone. The moment you like if you and I fight and because we fight sales and production are in conflict. If I'm solving your and my problem, they the systemic thing can work. People tend to because they all feel powerless to hide behind systems. You know, look at Putin, look at look at look at the war, look at the. People like to hide behind it. We know this from weird CEOs to. You know, you have a little bit of power and you hide behind it. And that's why we need to create systems that, which is my next book, that can't be high checked by a person, you know, they can't they just can't. We need to give we are great. We are the gods of nothing, but we are the gods of systems. So don't you think we could create systems that you that you just can't can't abuse, that you cannot cannot high check, you know? So. But yet that's, you know, that seems like that is that's a huge, you know, concern. Various we do have all these systems, we do have this all these digital things, but then you you look at that and it's things like they know identity theft and hip, you know, health information, all this kind of stuff. That's really it's all of these systems we created. But then there's that security or lack thereof of being able to use a system against us, basically, or even like CCTV or some of those. These places have monitoring everywhere. But then suddenly it's like, well, wait, now somebody can look into my private life all the time. It's you know, we built these we built these monsters basically. Yeah, without without thinking that wouldn't be a problem. Building a monster, being conscious of it is absolutely. But becoming unconscious of it, building a monster that I can then you know, weaponize to get whatever I want or manipulate. That's the problem, because what systems also condition us is the system is stronger and you can't find a fight the system. So you have to alter the system. But if the humans have no desire to alter the system, we can't then we are dumber and dumber and dumber. And I'm this is why I'm a creativity awareness educator. I like to educate people to just look at the thing. I'm not against anybody. I'm not against Democrats and Republicans or anything. I'm not for a revolution. I'm not for getting rid of system. I'm just saying, be aware of what we're doing. It's like we're going in the business. Be aware why you want to do this business. Is this business an extension of you? Because we are eight billion humans that are unique. See what systems condition us is that eight same kind of people. No, there's eight billion unique people with own fingerprints, irises and DNA. And life is figuring out. That's why I'm saying is an extension of you, because if business is an extension, is a wonderful tool to figure out who you are, to learn your strengths and weaknesses. You know, a leader is not a leader if he doesn't know his weaknesses. So that is a tyrant. You know, you know, you want to lead. You want to have that position of leading people. You got to be the most self-aware person in the in the bunch. You can't have a cashier being more self-aware than you. You need to be the most, because if this cashier, then she should be the leader. You need to be the most self-aware person of all as a leader, because you need to know the humans that you are interacting and dancing with. I always say a leader dances with his team. Then you you be powerful because you're creating a continuous balance and then you can just, you know, go over every problem. And everything we create, I think that's important to know is. We create a paring knife, right, to make beautiful things with food, you know, to do, you know, fruits and all that stuff and make a beautiful buffet. But also we can use a paring knife to do atrocious things with such a link to other human if we torture him. So everything we create, we can create to hurt or to serve. But when we lose sight of what when it can't, when it is potentially harmful or when we go into direction, a course direction of, OK, everybody does it. I do it, too, because we're inclusive. That's the problem. And if we are aware that we can use everything, there is no certainty. There is no safety. Just accept it, because, you know, you can't control humans. But you can. Make people aware and communicate with people. You know, if we all talk to each other, it's fine. We don't have to be friends with everybody. I'm just saying the conversation. I've never talked about this in this way than with you. Because you, even though you don't talk much and, you know, because I'm talking, but you make it possible. I always say thank you for giving me the canvas to paint. Because without a canvas, I can't paint. And so system says only what you say is valuable. I would I would challenge this. I think your silence is more valuable in this conversation than what I talk because I don't have an ego. They say, hey, this is all me. And I also see the spaces between talking are very important. So the space that the canvas where we, you know, where we create is extremely important, is extremely important. And we always think, oh, how much does this person do now? We have we have people that don't do a lot in the team. But without them, when they when they are sick, it's a different team. And when you can start seeing that. When it's not, oh, I want to see the output, when you don't systemize system, vacation of humans. Then you can actually get the fulfillment. And you say, I'm glad I'm alive and I love to experience life. And it's not going to exhaust you. You can work 10 hours and it's not exhaustive, exhausting you because you enjoy it. Yeah, I think it's that you want to look for the things that energize you, that actually instead of drain you that and then you you do, you know, it's it's the old saw that if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life. It's that kind of a, you know, that kind of a thought process. But I do want to touch on the the talking versus silence, because I think that's something that we we lose track of sometimes in the with the systems and the ability to do more, do more, do more. Is it in art and and even a lot of us know that we've written, if we do like blogs or we've done websites, that there is that artsy thing to it, even if we're not artists per se, and that there is that. That value that people talk about in white space in not having something. So if you have a page that is just letters, you know, that is just you fill every ounce of that page. It's it's too much. It's overwhelming versus like think of it as a, like think of if you like, for example, you know, if you could write this big, long book about something. But then think of somebody like a like Bono or Oprah or somebody that that one word speaks volumes because of that brand. And sometimes there's a word that has that thought or just a quote or something like that, that sometimes you can be you have a lot more power in a 15 second message than three hours of speaking on whatever your topic is. No, absolutely. I think we all artists, we just don't use it. You don't use that muscles because look at this. Look at the evolution of podcasts and blogs and all this like on the net. If we were in creator, the internet would be boring. It would be just text. You know, we created we are create animals. I always say that we are create animals and be aware of that. So even if you're a businessman, I hear so many businessmen come to me, you know, oh, what do you what are you doing? And I tell them, oh, I'm not an artist. I'm a businessman. I said you wouldn't even call yourself a businessman if you weren't an artist. We wouldn't be creative. Yeah, you wouldn't be in that realm. You wouldn't call yourself that. So we are creator and social. We are social. We cannot believe the hype that we are better than everybody else. Or that we are worse than everybody else, because nature doesn't lie. You your existence is the worthiness. And it doesn't matter if you're an ant or an elephant, you're just worthy. You know, you did it. Nature doesn't make a mistake. Did you ask me? I want to make sure I answered all your question. Did you ask me something in that or? I open it. I didn't directly ask as much as just open it up for more conversation. No, no, no, no. Because I think the white space is also space. And it's also what this does is when you have such a noise, you cannot be in your body. You know, we have six senses. And I say the six senses are feeling, for example, you and I, you know, resonate or don't resonate. We don't like each other. You know, so that's the sixth sense. But we have five senses. And when you're always in linear, which is systemic, you know, linear text, linear this linear language, we we get out of our body. And I know that very well because of neurodiversity. If I. I couldn't. I was stuttering in school. I couldn't talk. I couldn't speak. I couldn't form thoughts or sentences. And I could still not read, you know, I have. I'm writing six books and I have to have them read to my with the computer to me. So I use the systems or the technology to help me. And that's why I say always ask why we doing wise, you know? I mean, why are we doing what we're doing? And then and be honest with yourself and have a body of yours or a friend or your wife and talk about it. Why are we doing what we're doing? Why are we married? What is that? You know? And when you do that. Because once you know why you're doing something and you ask that question your whole life, because, you know, I wanted to be a big movie producer, and then once I worked with it, you know, co-produced with a movie producer, it wasn't that what I what I hoped for. It wasn't fulfilling. You know, I wanted to be a big I wanted to go into politics, I became a politician. And then I saw it wasn't what I wanted. So why are you doing what? But there was something underneath is that I learned to understand creativity and whatever, and that was my driver. But I thought the driver of I like creativity and want to know how we do this, you know, how humans do it. I was always fascinated. Why are we doing what we're doing? And I got that and that was my driver, but I didn't know that when I did that, you know, I didn't know when I worked with Robert there and said that happened, you know, or when I was arts commissioner or when I had my books out and I didn't know or got the front of a magazine. Those things I didn't know. And they were not fulfilling. I tell you, they were an ego jolt. And they were absolutely not fulfilling because you're wasting all this time for this moment that you get that for this period of time. Now, I don't want to work for something. I want to do everything I do and enjoy it. Not that it's never hard, but it's not. It's like this is systemically such a lie that it should be sunny every day. And if it's not, then then we sell you a Ferrari. We get your appeal. You know, we get your workouts, a routine or something. And then when you even when you buy, you buy like we all do, you buy all these things. And then you say, really, nothing has changed. It's a short time. I felt great in the Ferrari for the first year and the first half year. And now it's a car, you know. I so without the consciousness, you can't lock in. The joy, you know, because that's what you see with lottery. They get all the money. They say money is the answer. They get all the money and they lose it all because their consciousness isn't for versus somebody to build himself up with money slowly, not fast and slowly. He knows he gets used to money. He understands money. He's not going to kill himself because all of a sudden he hits the first million. You know, so and he's not going to lose it. Or, you know, perhaps he does. But I'm saying in general, when you slowly go up, you're fine. But because you're trying to probably the process of getting to the first million. This is this is the thing. So so that's a lie. The other lie is system lie that you should be, you know, when you think about human centric versus system relevant, is that if I can do it, you can do it. Bullshit. That is completely bullshit. Because you can do a podcast. I can't. I my podcast is 30 seconds. You know, and I can't do it because of my neurodiversity. It's like asking somebody with to shoot a bow and arrow with one hand. Yeah, there's guys that can shoot it with their feet and whatever. But that's not because that's why you're unique. That's why you are you. And that's why you have value, because you can do something other than I can. So those systemized humans that we eight billion of the same is a completely lie. That is a lie in our perception, because everybody's unique and everybody's good for one. And if a system was good, it would take make the effort and said, what is Rob especially good? What is Michael especially good? And can these people work together if we can system? If I can do that. You know, where we enjoy working every day, because we need to work, because that is our relevance. We love we think our animals, I mean, the CEO that works 60 hours a week. What does he do on the weekend? He goes gardening or thinkers on his car. You know, it's just we need to think we need to be tactile. We need to touch something, you know, play golf, do something. So so this is this is I think this is a great episode. I think all your listeners, there's so much in there and, you know, it's packed. So you're going to listen to it over and over because it's going to change you. Well, I agree. And so that actually is good because we've respectful of everybody's times. Now, the people have listened to you. I'm sure some of them are interested, particularly now that you, you know, you're going to have a book coming out. What is the best way for people to get a hold of you for for more information? Yeah, you can connect with me on Michael M. I have one hub simple, make it humanly simple. One hub, Michael M.com, Michael is to else Michael M.com. And you just go there and you can get my podcast, my music, paintings, all this stuff, you know, consultant, speeches, do whatever, you know, that's very simple. Well, excellent. That's the best way to do it is just one. Just one additional thing to remember, and then you have a whole wealth of information and content there. That's the way to do it. Well, I agree. This has been great. It's one of those things that it's hopefully even a little bit motivational and maybe even corrections for people that are trying to figure out what's what is their focus. So I want to I want to thank you so much for your time and for for joining us on the podcast. Thank you, Rob. Appreciate it. And that will wrap it up. I want to thank Michael for his time, for a great conversation, for him to just sort of paint on that empty canvas that he was given. I hope that the portrait, the painting that he wrapped up that he completed is something that's useful to you. Maybe it's one of those things. It's not a walk away today and instantly have a couple of to do items or action items, but something that over time will help you maybe direct your work a little bit better, do something and do things that are more focused on that actual why, which we come back to all the time is let's make sure that the reason we do things is continues to be the reason that we do those as opposed to sometimes we get that focus drift as we go further into our our product, our application, our company, our side hustle, things of that nature. We're not done with our interviews. We've got a couple more left. So next episode, we're going to kick back into a new one. Until then, go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week. And we will talk to you next time. Thank you for listening to Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Noor podcast. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, anywhere that you can find podcasts. We are there. 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