Personality types and branding

Welcome to Building Better Developers, the Developer podcast where we work on getting better step by step professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing a series of interviews and we are starting a new one. We're speaking with Naomi Gora today and in the next episode as well, we're going to talk about something a little bit different. I have over the years been a, I guess, a fan and sense of personality typing like the Myers-Briggs, they're Myers-Briggs also known as MBTI and Enneagrams and a few others along those. Just how often they help us understand who we are and how we think and what motivates us even in some cases. That is what Naomi applies to business, to the owner of and essentially the owner and CEO, the visionary of the business and particularly if you're an entrepreneur, lining up your business and your culture and your approach with your personality. Because sometimes you end up doing things that they're not really natural to you and when you start essentially faking it, it can cause some issues. So that's what we're going to talk about. So this is going to be like I said a little different but I think when you get done, you'll find that it's one of those things that will help you step back a little bit and go, huh, am I doing things the way I should so that I will be happy and fulfilled as opposed to just churning again and working your butt off or something that maybe you end up in a situation where you're successful but not happy. So don't want to take too much of a thunder so let's dive right into our conversation with Naomi. Okay, today we're going to talk personality types. This is a fun one. I have not actually done this. I don't think I've talked about this much in blogs or on the podcast as much but it's definitely a habit, a side hustle thought process for myself. Of how this affects me, how this affects people I work with. And I think you're going to find out that this is a little bit different take maybe. It's not your standard Myers-Briggs or something along those lines. It's how you take that personality and use that to really like where's your why, where's your brand, what is it that makes you happy? We talk a lot about that, about how to choose the things to do that make you happy, that make you fulfilled. And we're going to be speaking with Naomi Gore and she is the brand whisperer is her side effect, brand whisperers and we'll have links to that. But I want to welcome you on the show and allow you to tell us a little bit about that and how you became a brand whisperer. Thanks so much, Rob. Yes, I am the brand whisperer. It's funny it's a name that one of my clients gave me actually because along the road of creating brands for businesses, I guess what a brand is in a bigger picture is an identity. And I've always been very fascinated with identities and the personalities of brands. And then I came across personality typing and noticed correlations in my clients and their brands and what they liked based on their personality types. And so then I delved into it even deeper and sort of developed my own system to help people understand themselves in the business world more before they just jump in and sort of accidentally create a business that they don't even want to run. Yeah, and that's probably the I guess sometimes that's the worst thing is you end up and you put all that work into your baby and you have this business that you've created. And then you realize you're not happy with it. You get into a situation where it's bigger than you and you don't feel like you can walk away from it. And that's I think a common thing is to say, hey, before you get into that, it may be a great idea, but sometimes think about whether that idea or maybe and this is sort of a question for you is maybe it's how you phrase or how you position that because you can have products that have different branding around them. So you can have the same product and have a very different brand. And when people come to you, is that is that sort of where they're at? Are they are they usually is it where they're starting off or is it more where they've come in and they said, hey, I've got a business, but now maybe we don't have an identity or we've lost our identity. Yeah, absolutely. It's it's both. So I either find I work with people that are very new and they've never had a business before and somehow they've heard of me. And so I help them build a foundation that's going to last them a long time. Or people come to me saying, I don't know how this happened. Like I got into business for freedom and I thought it was going to be my big dream, but somehow the way that I've built it hasn't ended up that way. And they sort of they're sort of in a place of like, how did I even get here? And I think it is. I think there's a big piece of the puzzle missing in business education. Or this is what I've come to think anyway, because when you first start a business, I think the first thing we're all told is to focus on our customers. So just like go out, get to know your customers, build your business around your customers at any cost sort of thing. And our customers are really important. Like there's no doubt that they are important, but I sort of feel like sometimes it's not balanced. And if we go into business knowing ourselves and what we we are good at, our strengths, our weaknesses, what the things that we're likely to hate, then it's more of a meeting of minds like it's a win-win and we're attracted like a good relationship. You're you know, you're attracting your good match partners rather than just going out and chasing the people that might buy your services, but you've got to twist yourself in knots to get them. Wow, that's actually that's an interesting, a little bit different perspective there. I mean, it's that idea of like, if you're out, if you're out dating, you don't want to. The point is not to date everybody. It's to date that, you know, the people that are into especially with like meetups and stuff like that. If you think of your bigger social circle, you don't want to have a social circle that's everybody. You're not that doesn't make sense. You want to narrow that down to the people that that you're comfortable with it. And I think as a customer thing, I think that's the thing. I think that is where some of the yeah, there's so many companies that fail. I've I've wondered if that's not part of it is that they fail because they are they get themselves signed up in a way that they're trying to serve somebody that's not natural to them. And so it's not a good fit. And so they're you're you're fighting against what you need to do as opposed to finding the thing that's maybe where you need to be. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's sort of like in the dating context, it's sort of like, you know, I've got an idea. I want this person. So I'm going to dress like this and act like this and do things this way to attract that partner rather than going out going, this is me. I'm really strong at these things. I like these things. This is my product or service. And then you just naturally attract the right person for that. That's sort of the way I think of it. Yeah, I think that that genuine approach, I think we we see the value in that with personal relationships, but it's it really is a business thing as well. And particularly now when there's as the world's shrinking and there's so many options, it's not like you're that you know, that one corner store that everybody has to go to because they live within a mile of the store. You're dealing with people all over the world. And and it also expands so that you can find the people that really want your product or how you present it. And you can still have a business. You don't have to put it in that corner store and hope that everybody feels the same way around you. You can say, look, I can go instead build that thing. And it's not quite build it and they will come. But it is very much a if you build it in that way, it will be more natural for you to to run in those circles. I think. Yes. Yeah, that's that's such a great point. You're right. Like it is, you know, with the whole world of YouTube, it's not just television. And, you know, with the e-commerce, it's not just the local shop you're going to. You can find your sort of people so much more easily than ever before. Now, have you because you have people come to you and, you know, like, hey, I need some help. And I assumed it. And I guess we'll start with the question instead of assuming it. Do they tend to come with you to you just as a hey, we need a brand or is it where they say, hey, we we feel a disconnect and we're trying to figure out what should our brand be? Yeah, absolutely. So I started out branding and brand strategy and marketing is my my career. That's where I started from. And so as I was doing brands and got to be known as the brand whisperer, this personality side sort of morphed morphed into into it. And so now I get both. So people come to me for a brand when they're they're saying, look, it just doesn't feel like me and everything's disconnected. And we've got a message out there, but nothing actually it doesn't line up. So there's a bit of that. And then there's people that come to me saying, I don't like my business doesn't feel like me. I hate it. I'm either I'm not making enough money or I'm exhausted or I'm stressed out or I don't know how I got myself into this position. And then we use the personality typing. And I also use I have other little tricks up my sleeve, like values analysis. And I help people through through different questions and exercises create their own super hero alter ego, which is like their, you know, their super hero best friend, like a I guess some people call it an imaginary friend, I guess, that sort of encapsulates the personality of you in your business. So I take them through this process to help them understand what they're hating and why and how they can shift things to feel more like themselves. Oh, that's interesting. The superhero kind of approach, because a lot of a lot of organizations like companies will talk about creating their, you know, call it usually it's like an avatar, which is their ideal customer. Now you're you're flipping that and saying is sort of the ideal of that of that owner or that business. Is that really what it is? Is so that you're instead of focusing on that customer, you're focused on what you what you are and therefore trying to find the customers that match that. Yeah. Yes. So for example, my my superhero alter ego is the quirky fairy brand mother. So I imagine myself as like this magical fairy godmother that, you know, helps people create businesses they love. And so when I'm making decisions in my business, I sort of have a vision of her and what she is. And she's sort of like the best version of myself. You know, when I get confused or scared or, you know, that sort of thing, I'm like, what would quirky fairy godmother do? And, you know, it just helps guide you on the way to keep your brand and your identity really strong rather than going, oh, well, oh, look, I really, you know, I don't want to do this, but I really should. And it'll, you know, it'll help me grow my business. Say an opportunity came up that you didn't really want to do, but you sort of felt you should. It's that that alter ego helps you go. No, you know, that's not the right thing for you. So she's sort of the bundle of your personality type and your values directing you on the way to go when things get tough. Now, and now you have just a spoiler alert to everybody. There is a personality brand personality test that she has on her site and we'll have have links to that. Now, are there maybe like some instead of getting down to the specific personalities, are there sort of some a couple of like key, like keeping it sort of a high level of like, if you're this type of person, this is a direction you should go that you can you can start people off on just getting them thinking about that so that we it's a little bit of a teaser to bring them in and say, OK, now refine your personality, figure out where you really should be. But like in this case, in particular, a lot of the audience, their developer entrepreneur type, so they've got that that techie type problem solver type. What is it maybe that you've seen some some brands or an approach that is usually going to be a better fit? So maybe some of these people are out there going, gosh, I don't know what it would sound like. And my hope is that you'll be like, hey, this is what it would be. This would be a good fit for you. And suddenly people with light bulbs are coming on saying, wow, that's incredible. That's exactly what I would like to do. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So the techie, yeah, techie developer types, I mean, not it's hard to say like, oh, techie developer types are going to be this sort of type and that sort of thing. But broadly, what I found in some of the techie types, this is just one example. Sometimes they're the the INTP type, which is like the truth seeker. And the thing that I find in their brands is often they want to be private or behind the scenes. They, you know, they can. And sort of get pushed into this whole idea of in the marketing world or the business world, like you have to tell your story and you have to put yourself front and center in your brand to, you know, to connect with your customers. And they come to me going, but I just I don't want to be the face of my brand. I don't want to be anywhere. I just I just want to hide or, you know, people saying, oh, you have to have a phone number on your website. And the thing that I see, whether you are in that sort of type or any sort of techie type is what I see is the business world sort of not purposely, but there's things that you should do. And what people come to me saying is like, I just don't want to do this thing, but I have to. And when we look at their personality type, I can unravel and go, well, actually, you're a really introverted private person and that's really going to stress you out. So let's look at what you can do instead. So I have a client that's a very techie client and she didn't want to have a phone number on a website. And she was really getting stressed out about, you know, I've got to be the face of my business. So we made her product the face of her business instead. And we put a chat bot on her website and email and she just didn't have a phone number. It's like, it's OK. There's other ways to be you and still get your customers. Oh, that's a that's an excellent point is I think particularly these days, there's there's so many of those business rules or you should have or you must do that I think have changed because the technology is in a completely different place. I mean, just look at the last couple of years, it used to be that you had to have an office, you had to have people come to an office and they had to work at the office. Like, no, actually, now a lot of people don't work at an office at all. The zoom meetings has become like the is the standard almost as everybody knows. People probably even what now three, four years ago, a lot of people didn't even know what the heck Zoom was. And now everybody knows what it is, even it's just like that's I don't care if you're a trucker or a warehouse worker or whatever it is, it seems like that's just become part of the lexicon. And so I think it's a great point is there's there those things, those rules that are sort of outdated a little bit, that there's there are other approaches to solving some of those problems. Yeah, absolutely. And I think as well as well as them being outdated, there's just so much advice. Like you can you can get so confused in the world of business when you come out and people are saying you have to do this and now you have to have an email list or you have to have your phone number on your website or you have to become a personal brand. And depending on what you're listening to, you can go, OK, right. Well, I have to do all these things and it can become really confusing. Whereas if you know your personality type and I work with a specific model called the car model. Once you know that, you can start to go, you know, this one's not going to work for me. And you can start to get things off the table. So you're not being so confused about all the hundreds of things you could do. And you start to get a really clear idea of the things that are going to work for you and hone in on that and do it well. Because often what I see as well when business owners get confused is they sort of half do everything but don't do anything really well and then think, oh, I'm a failure. But it's just really they haven't zeroed in on their thing yet. So is that really what is that really a lot of what comes down to it boils down to is that you're able to help them fly by like simplify and focus, especially once they have that personality type. Is that sort of like this is the direction you need to go? Yeah, simplify and focus and give them permission to be themselves to do. It's OK for you to, you know, you're all our little quirks or things we do or don't like in business. It's OK to not want to do the things. Or sometimes I see people being pulled in a certain way and they go, oh, no, I shouldn't do it that way. But really, when you really lean into the things that you're good at and the things that excite you rather than trying to force you to do the things that you should do, then all of a sudden the energy you can put behind it is a lot more. Oh, that's true. And that's I think that's a lot of people are starting to realize when you think of podcasts and YouTube and all these different channels of people being able to promote themselves and their products is that a lot of times it comes down to their products out there. There are people out there that are the influencer or whatever that if you would have told somebody a year ago that you could be an influencer in that area, you say no way. But then you realize it's because you can bring that excitement, you can bring that energy. And there's there's people out there that's like, I have no idea what they I don't understand what they talk about at all. But I'll listen to them and watch them because their excitement is so good. It makes me feel better just watching it. Yeah, it is. It is. It's infectious and motivating. Exactly. Yes. Yeah, that's like a cup of coffee in the morning where you're like, hey, I can just I can watch this person talk about it and just start my day with a smile or. And just get. Yeah, exactly. And that flows through to your customers when I think when you're stressed or struggling or you're doing things that you don't want to do, I think unconsciously your customers can feel that and the other way around as well. When you're in your zone and you're doing the things that you like and you don't feel pressured by your business, they feel that too. Oh, very much so. Now, this as you're this sort of the there's a couple of ways you can do this. So I'm curious how you do it. It is the is the personality portion of the brand sort of like an entry into how you brand stuff or does that is that pervasive throughout while you're working with them? That it's sort of like very much by the time they get done with working with you, that they're going to have a lot more, I will say a sensitivity to not only their personality, but personality types in general. Oh, yes, that's a great question. Yeah. So we don't I don't when I'm working with people, I don't tend to delve a lot into other people's personality types, unless it's like a team situation. And I'm trying, you know, I've seen great results with, you know, teams or especially founders, like, say, there's a group of two or a group, a pair of two founders or a group of three founders or whatever. And they are, you know, maybe disagreeing on things or feeling like people aren't pulling their weight. I've found that the personalities can be a really great tool to say, you know, realize this person isn't being an idiot. They've actually got a really good reason why they're doing that. And as a team, they balance each other out. So that's more from a team perspective. I've seen, you know, rifts heal and founders get on a lot better. But from a branding perspective, we really just focus on on their brand. And I found that each of the personality types have like little quirky things that are similar. Like, you know, not every personality type is going to have this brand that looks the same, but they have like, yeah, little patterns or similarities in them. So like, I'm just trying to think of a type that may be like the techie types, like the strategist, which is the INTJ. I find that they're usually they're usually quite premium, like they're a premium, sleek brand. Like they like quality. They want to be the best. And yeah, their brands are usually quite high, high level. Sometimes they're often consultants and they'll sort of go in looking like this. You know, you want them to look like a really established expert in their brand. So it gives me clues when they come in as to what their brand might look like. And then we roll it out and make it really their own. Now, this we're going to we're going to delve a little bit into this, that part. So, Daddy, as you do, you now see brands when you look at a brand, do you sort of now find yourself assessing like what kind of personality that that either that either created that or that that is going to be a fit for? Oh, my goodness. All the time. It's like I could get stuck in a hole doing this. And it's, you know, every brand I see, I'm like, I'm pretty sure that that could be that that person. I mean, I can't tell 100% sure unless I profiled them myself and I knew. But yeah, I start to see different different companies and different brands and going, oh, that's definitely like an entertainer brand. And you can imagine, say, if like, you know, a truth seeker or there's another type I call the rock, they're very sturdy and stable. They like proven proven methods to grow their business. If they jumped out there and tried to run their business like an entertainer type, they would be like, oh, my God, this is too crazy. I can't do this. And, you know, so by knowing those things, you cannot get caught up in like, oh, to succeed in business, I have to be like this. You can start to find other businesses that fall into your sort of brand category or even business the way they run business and go, oh, this these are my group of people. This is how I can do it successfully. Now, do you with that? Do you then carry does that do those conversations carry over a little bit into? Because it brands, some people I think see brand is just its market, its colors and fonts and logos and stuff. But but really, there's there's far more to a brand, whether it's a personal brand or even a corporate brand. There is that there's culture and things like you mentioned the high the very sleek kind of thing like an apple was always that brand when it particularly when it's a Steve Jobs, that was just what he brought. Or you look at a big thing like like Disney has always been a certain brand and it's you see a lot of those organizations goes deep into the culture as well. So is that part of of what you work with them on is because sometimes it's hiring. It's there's so much more to that brand than just like, you know, some fonts and colors and logos. But it's it's your message and everything else. Do you go into that as well with them? Yes. I'll say you've touched on something very close to my heart, Rob. So there's because I came from the corporate world before, you know, before I started out on my own. And you're so right. So branding in the in the corporate world or business as we know it is often seen as like a little department of sales and marketing. And that always confused me. So if there was like a hierarchy of businesses and actually I get get my clients to do what I call the Post-it Note Challenge when they come to work for me. So we put Post-it Notes up on the wall of all the different areas of business. So there's your role, what you do. There's your team, there's your business model, lead generation, nurturing, sales, product or service delivery and service experience. And we put them up on the wall and they write all of those areas of how happy they are in that business. And, you know, if they're low, then we try to improve them. But above all of that, I have brand. And so I think the brand, your brand flows through absolutely every element of your business. So I've actually had had arguments with, you know, sales and marketing people. They're like, no, branding goes in the sales and marketing function. I'm like, no, it goes at the top of everything. And it filters down through how you do everything. It's not just your colors or your logos. It's how you answer the phone. It's how you reward your customers. It's how you send them the product. Like if you've got a product-based business, you know, if your brand is sustainable and environmental, you will probably not have a lot of fancy packaging. But if you like an entertainer, business personality type that, you know, you just really want to excite people, you may have packaging that you open up and sparkles fly out. So, you know, that's a bit over the top. But absolutely, I think it just flows through everything. Yeah, there's probably somebody out there's like, that's what I need is sparkles to jump out when somebody opens up. You know, that's my whole business. Sparkles pop out of your packaging. Excuse me. Sorry. But I'm coming just about something else that you hit on earlier with, you know, Steve Jobs and the Apple brand and Disney. So Steve Jobs and the Apple brand is what I call like the empire builder. Like, so he's a natural empire builder. He, you know, that's just what he was good at. Whereas Disney, I call the BFF. So that's, you know, like the best best friend forever. Like he was everybody's friend. And that's how he like through his personality and his brand. That's how he he'd grown. But if he had tried to be, even though he made a big corporate company, if he tried to run it as an empire builder, it may not have gone so well. Yeah. And I think you see that sometimes when people you'll see these companies, particularly when they get big, they'll go buy a company or an entrepreneur type, or, you know, it will go into another company. They'll be very comfortable in their first one and they go to something else. And either they are trying to change a culture or they're trying to bring a different culture in and a different brand and a personality. And then suddenly there's, you know, there's issues. Either you'll have things like either they won't be happy or the staff won't be happy or the customers aren't happy that you can see that where they get sort of a, you know, loggerheads with each other, where it's, they're trying to do something that just doesn't suit them. It's like an actor and actress. Sometimes there's a role that they do very well because that's who they are. And there's one that they don't because that's just not who they are. They're just not that good an actor or actress to act like somebody that they aren't. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's just such an area of business that is not often spoken about. It's not really being brought into the pieces of the puzzle of what makes, you know, a business successful. And then some people may think that they're failing or, you know, something didn't work or it wasn't a good idea. It's like, oh, no, it just wasn't a good fit for you. And we will pause there if you haven't already noticed. We're going to go ahead and wrap this up for today, but we will be back next episode and wrap up our conversation with Naomi. Hopefully this has been one of those things that's caused you to think a little bit about what it is you're doing and your motivation and your why so that you can get those things to line up with who you are and end up with one of those situations where you are successful and happy where you get up every day looking forward to the day ahead of you and whatever work it is you have on your plate. That being said, it's time to get back to your work on your plate for today. So go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. Thank you for listening to Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Noor Podcast. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon, anywhere that you can find podcasts. We are there. And remember, just a little bit of effort every day ends up adding into great momentum and great success. 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