Regaining Clarity at Work: How Developers Avoid Burnout

Welcome to Building Better Developers, the Developer podcast, where we work on getting better step by step professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season, Building Better Developers, the Developer podcast, and this is a season about moving forward, getting unstuck, getting that forum momentum, the things that you want to do when you're not. When you're stuck in a rut, you're like, I don't know why I keep doing these same things and I just I'm that hamster in the wheel and I'm working my butt off and it's not getting anywhere. This is the season we're going to talk about those things. And we are talking with coach this time and we will continue in this episode to talk with Andrew Henkelman. We'll give you links in case you spell his name with a silent Q and we'll allow you to do that so that you can connect with him because he has a great offer. If you haven't listened to part one, pause right here. Go back, listen to part one because we're going to pick up right where we left off from part one. I probably should introduce myself because I'm way behind on all that kind of stuff. My name is Rob Brodhead. I'm one of the developers of development who are also the founder of RB Consulting where we don't allow you to sit around. We just give you the spoilers right away. No, actually what we do is we help you leverage technology to create a unique custom solution for your business. So you got a roadmap for success. Good thing, bad thing. Good thing is I am settling into my new digs. I am like having a good old time. I'm adjusting to a time change and all that kind of good stuff. The bad thing is, is I'm managing somewhere along the way to like, I don't know if it's a bad thing. I'm trying to get my day to start and end later than it used to, which is not horribly bad in general, but it's just one of those. It's now, it's like I have like, I'm having to mentally adjust to this a little bit more where I'm like, you know, I get to noon and it's not as much of my day has existed as noon as it did just even a month or two ago. So it's not a rough good or bad, but it is what it is. Something that is always a little bit good and a little bit bad is my co-host. So go ahead and introduce yourself, Michael. Hey everyone. My name is Michael Milosh. I'm one of the co-founders of Doha for Nerve, building better in the Belfast. Also the founder of Envision QA, where we design and test software that fits your workflow. That way you can stop fighting your tools and start growing your business. Good things and bad things. Good things like this season forward motion, getting things rolling. I've been working on some new projects, getting out networking. I've got some new proposals kind of going around. So really starting to get this year off on the right foot. I'm still, unfortunately, dragging a little bit from last year's carrying over a little bit and part of that was, oops, I forgot to do a December's financing stuff. So I'm rushing real quick to get all that done for tax season. So that's kind of my bad, but a lot of it's good. It's all forward motion, getting things done. Yes. That was the like, welcome to the new year when all of this stuff like you got to file this file, this file, this file, this file, this file, this. I'm like, ah, that's right. I got to do all those. Luckily, it's not too complicated. I kept stuff. I kept up to date with my stuff for the most part. There's just a few little things, but it's still, it's accounting stuff. Not my favorite thing to do. My favorite thing to do is have these conversations and these interviews. So let's dive right in. I've already told you what's coming. So let's get back to our conversation right where we picked it up with, right where we dropped it off with Andrew. Yeah. People talk about, you know, they'd be like, hey, stay in your lane and stuff like that. It's usually is more of a negative, but it's definitely a positive as well. This goes back, I think, like you said earlier about like the things that we do best sometimes are the ones that we are most like to stick with. But that's also where we're happier, we're healthier. And if we're trying to do, if you're trying to juggle too many, you know, balls in the air, then you're going to end up suffering with that. And that's, and it, gosh, that swings back around even to the whole like, make sure you're doing the thing. You know, there's a lot of, there are, gosh, today, especially there's so many distractions out there, whether it's, you know, you can get lost in an email, you can get lost in some sort of chat thread, you can get lost in an AI thing, you can get, there's so many things that are out there. And it's really, you know, that's part of it is finding that clarity. So actually, before we shift a little bit, I do want to like, I guess, wrap that one up a little bit. What is the, how do you walk with somebody as far as like getting their clarity? Is there like a certain, is there an exercise or like, we always talk about like finding your why? Is there something that you're, you're sort of say like, Hey, let's start with this. So we've got, where do you want to go with your coaching? Yeah, there's a, you know, I have a program, it's, there's some mechanics to it. We meet every other week, usually for six months and then for a month, you know, we'll meet monthly after that, just to kind of have some accountability and stuff. I mentioned emotional intelligence. It's a huge pillar of what we'll work on. I mentioned this sort of starting off with 360, making sure there's feedback. But in between the real work is, is how am I doing on the new actions, the new things I'm committing to and where am I falling down and what's hard about it? And along the way, we're sort of uncovering more and more of what someone needs to kind of address. So just to make it super concrete, you know, most people that I talk to are, you know, somewhere maybe not fully burned out, but they're somewhere in there. They're in the spectrum of like approaching being pretty burned out. People are busy, distracted. They're pretty fried in general. And overall, most people are pretty lonely too. Like they don't, they don't necessarily like, there's a lot of isolation, especially with people working remotely. So one of the things, one of the very specific exercises that I do with people is I have them write out all the things that make them strong, feel good, feel powerful, all of those kinds of things. So I call it the causes and conditions, right? Point being Rob, that like for you to have a great day tomorrow, there are certain things that you're probably going to do today, right? Maybe you're going to work out. Maybe you're going to spend some downtime reading, make sure you get enough sleep. All of those things, you sort of get to a point where you need the self-discipline to honor those, right? You can't go into every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, depleted. You know, a weekend is not going to solve your burnout. You got to like start to have some specific habits that are good for you and build those in and have some discipline around them. So that's just an example of sort of like, you know, the kinds of things that we might work on in the middle of a coaching engagement. Not sure if I answered your question. Yeah, yeah, that was a good answer. And I think that's the problem with so many things. We joke about that a lot in like consulting calls and stuff like that. When I say like, what's a good, you know, what's an ideal customer or something like that? It's like, well, that depends. You know, it's the same kind of thing. It's like, it's very personal. And so it's hard to give a like, you know, bop, bop, bop. Here's your template. Here's like item one, two, three. This is the way it always works because it doesn't. There's, you know, everybody's unique and you have to you have to find that uniqueness before you even begin. I mentioned earlier this is like, now it's one of those things, I think everybody's curious about in various areas is like, where do you see, do you see AI impacting coaching? Because there's like, you know, certain areas that people are like, oh, this is totally different. And honestly, in coaching's era, I've heard of some people are like, oh, I had a chat with an AI thing and like, now I'm ready and I'm off and going and it solved all my problems and stuff like that. So how do you see or are there like, I guess part of it is not where you see it going, but it's like, has it already changed maybe some of the discussions as you're bringing new people on? It has. It's changed a lot in the coaching industry. You know, there are a lot of coaches that are developing their own agents or their own versions of the chat that has all of their sort of methodologies and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, the way that I look at it is the thing that works well for you is going to be the thing you choose. So like, if Michael can fire up Gemini or Claude or whatever his choice is and say, talk to me like a highly experienced executive coach that's very skilled at helping technical founders move from five million to ten million and, you know, like a incredibly specific prompt, he may get really, really good results and he may take those very seriously and use them. You might not, Rob. So you might kind of look at that as like, it's just some more noise. I want to talk to someone. I want to like talk to someone who's going to read my body language and met someone who's been where I've been and can help me see around corners and be maybe a thought partner or whatever. So my point really is I think people are going to select what they want and that's the way that it's going to go. I don't think that coaching is going to go away and be replaced by AI in the next five But I think some people are going to get really valuable input and coaching. They're going to get valuable coaching out of an AI tool for sure. Yeah. And it's having a massive impact already in a lot of learning platforms too. So are you seeing sort of a, I guess, a hybrid approach to it where people are getting some, you know, some benefit out of some of those tools, but also using a, you know, sort of like the best, like I said, a best of reader, a hybrid kind of approach where you've got a real coach, a live coach, and then also could utilize some of those tools to help, you know, continue to push you forward? For sure. Yeah. Yeah. It can be hybrid. It can be all of one, all the other. I mean, frankly, a lot of the very senior people that I talk to just want a human. But I could see, you know, as generations grow up with, you know, the normalcy of just walking around with, you know, Jim and I talking to them, that they're going to, that'll be their way to go and it'll be impactful for them. But yeah, and sometimes, you know, the leave, it's a leave behind, right? So if I can leave a version of me behind or I can give you, you know, here's three or four prompts. Let's say it's early Tuesday morning, you have a big meeting and you just want, you just want a little bit of a run through little role playing. You might not reach me. So here, here are a couple really good prompts you could use and, and you might get closed. So following up on that. So like, if you are working with a coach or working with you, but your coach isn't available. Yes, there are tools out there. You have chatbots, things of that. What are kind of like some disciplines or some strategies that you work with your customers to do when they can't reach you, but they need a coach or they are struggling with something kind of work through their problems when there's no immediate help available. Yeah, that's a really good question. So one of the things that I do is, is I let people know, like, for the most part, I am available. So, you know, I realized I just gave you that example where I'm not, but for the most part, I make sure people know they can text me and everything. So if you have a surprise meeting coming up tomorrow afternoon, then, you know, I'm happy to happy to get together with you. But in some ways, people don't need more inputs. So I'm going to give you a non-answer, Michael, and that is that, that you are automatically in a knee-jerk way going to think like, I need to go read this article or digest this book really quick or get this audible download, whatever, you know, this thing that's out there. Honestly, like 80% of the time, it's not what you need. You need to like sit down, quiet your mind a little bit and trust yourself because you probably already know how to deal with that conflict, deal with that tough manager. There are things you already know that, and really trusting yourself in those kinds of situations is probably more effective than watching another YouTube video. That makes sense. And to kind of follow up, I like your answer and I kind of am following where you're going with this. But there are times where like you have a large me or a project or something, you are stuck in your mind, kind of getting back to that kind of burnout kind of mentality where you're stuck, you're thinking, you're overthinking it, you're like stressing it. And it helps to talk to people sometimes. But like I said, you try to be available, but if you're not, honestly, like YouTube videos, things like that, that actually is more of a stressor to me. It's like those don't really help because you need to talk it through. Chat bots kind of help, but they can also be hurtful because they're always positive reinforcements and that's not necessarily always what you want. In those situations, what is your recommendation? You know, yes, you can meditate, but how, what are some tips that you could offer to help someone quiet their mind, kind of ease back down and get to a calm till they could talk to someone or maybe get through their current crisis? Yeah, yeah. You know, the main remedy for overthinking is usually exercise. So if you can get outside, do something physical, burn off some of that energy. Most times that's the best solution when you're stuck in those loops and you're overthinking. But the other way I want to answer this is that I like to talk about allies. So in a corporate environment, not your manager, but maybe one of your manager's peers or the person that kind of gets you and you get them and you've had some experiences together and they're trusted. Maybe it's an informal mentor, but someone who you can talk to, maybe it's peers. Hopefully you've been building strong relationships sideways. In a business, if you're in a startup, if you're a founder, for sure you're involved in groups, networking groups, whatever that is, other business people. And I personally have found that those people are amazing to talk to and always available, like super generous to talk to me anytime I need something to work through. So I think it's get out of your head, get outside, work out, and who are your allies around you? And if you don't feel like you have allies in your company or where you work, it's time to start identifying those people and putting a little effort in. Yeah, you got to cultivate those relationships so that you've got them when you need them. Yeah, and beyond your manager, right? I think what happens when people are in the first 10 years of their career, they think their manager is everything, right? And you need to expand beyond that. Yeah, I think that's been so... I know personally, those have been some of the best soundboard relationships have been those that were in completely different departments, like you said, sort of the peers that are going to have a different point of view. And those are almost always going to be invaluable and nothing else will help you get out of a rut. Even if you end up falling back into it, at least for a little bit, it gives you a way to explore elsewhere. You have to be a little vulnerable, right? Like you got to kind of open up a little. I mean, a lot of us are very private, very tight and like people aren't going to bond with you and you're not going to form great relationships if everything's transactional. Yeah, you got to go out once with them beforehand or something like that. Do something that's a little... that's not like in the heat of fire. What is a tip that you would offer those that might not be too extrovert or network? They may be like, since we all work, a lot of people work from home, they don't get out, they don't talk to people a lot, they don't network. What are some advices to these people to kind of help them break out of their shell to help expand their peers, their network so that they kind of have that safety net so that they can grow not just within themselves but within their communities? Yeah, I try to make that as simple as possible. And I mentioned working with a lot of engineers and I feel like most engineers are incredibly curious. I mean, that's my experience throughout my whole life. And so just by getting curious about something, even if you have to kind of invent it a little bit, like, you know, I'm curious about this, I want to learn more, asking questions is kind of your pathway there. I think if you're a little nervous about reaching out or being in meetups or, you know, going to things, just kind of try to get curious about the person across from you, about the event, about what people are doing, and it kind of takes the pressure off of you, right? Most people want to talk about the things they do and what they're into and all that. So I know it sounds simple, but it can be a powerful tactic. So now we have, as often happens, we have flown through our time together and you've got a lot of great points you've made, a lot of great ideas that you've tossed out there. So the audience is listening in. What are some of the best ways they would get a hold of you if they're like, hey, I want to explore this coaching thing a little bit more? Yeah, a great way to find me, it's just on LinkedIn. So Andrew Hinkelman on LinkedIn. I don't think there's too many of Andrew Hinkelman's out there. So to get the spelling right, you'll find me. Connect with me, send me a connection request, I'll accept it. And underneath my name on my LinkedIn page is a link to something like book a discovery call. So I mentioned doing, I'll just do a free coaching session. So we just get on. If you're curious about coaching and there's something specific you want to work on, we'll take an hour and you get a feel for it. It's not sales, it's not something I charge people for. It's really just to kind of give people the experience of what it's like. Excellent. And we'll make sure we have links for that to the correct Andrew Hinkelman in case somebody spells it with a silent Q or something like that. Make sure you get those links in there. Sometimes spelling can be a little challenging. Thanks so much for your time, for hanging out with us and putting up with some of our questions as we've wandered around this field. But hopefully everybody has gotten something out of us. It feels a little more, especially in this, we're looking at ways to move forward and getting ourselves unstuck. I would say definitely a coach is one of those people. Sometimes you've got to get your head up and step out and get some, a second set of eyes on your situation. So we will wrap this one up. We will be back next episode. We will continue with a fresh conversation. For now, go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. Thanks for tuning in to the Develop the Newer Podcast, where we're all about building better developers and better careers. I'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback, so drop a note to info at developthenewer.com. Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you listen. And remember, a little bit of effort every day adds up to a great success. Keep learning, keep growing, and we'll see you in the next episode.