The Developer Mindset Shift: How Changing Your Thinking Creates Forward Motion

Welcome to Building Better Developers, the Develop-a-Nor podcast, where we work on getting better step by step, professionally and personally. Let's get started. Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of getting unstuck, moving forward, for momentum. We are Building Better Developers. We are the Develop-a-Nor podcast. I am Rob Broadhead, one of the founders of Develop-a-Nor, also the founder of RB Consulting, where we help you take that reality check before you jump into a big project and ensure that you have got all the things in line so that you are actually ready for that project. Let's make sure that actually comes off as a success. Good thing and bad thing. The good thing is that I have recently been, for lack of a better term, exploring some interesting food things because there is just like, I am in a different area, different spices, different foods, different things that are out there. And it has been a, it has really been a good journey of finding some other stuff. I am not truly a foodie, but I guess I am not a not foodie either. So that has turned out very well. The bad thing is that sometimes things are lost in translation. So all I will say is that just make sure if you are ever in a situation where you are, you are unclear about what you are ordering, about what you are purchasing, that you do get a little more clarity in it because I have had a couple of things that were not exactly what we thought they were and it made for some interesting meals. That being said, we get to dive right into, this is part two of Kim Miller-Hershaw and it was a great part one. We are going to pick up right where we left off and continue this conversation with her. Hopefully you got a lot out of this and are ready to take notes for this one as well because she definitely has quite a few bits of information and I think some really great suggestions for getting unstuck. So here we go, back to our conversation with Kim. When you were working with these developers and you gave them these tools, you know, you didn't trick them, but basically you like got them doing some things that they weren't normally comfortable with. Did you end up circling back and saying, hey, look, you just did the selling or you just did this thing that you thought was so icky to sort of say, hey, look, it's not as bad as you thought it was? I got laid off before I got a chance to do that. It's one of those cliffhangers that will never get resolution. Yeah. So, Nnedi, you end up doing that. Do you find that become something that, does that something you took forward into coaching where you sort of sometimes find a different approach for these things that people are like when they're resistant to it and say, you know what, I just, that's not my thing. Sort of find that work around. Absolutely right. And again, how much do you want it? Right. And you know what, I think the other thing which, you know, I know people don't 100% love necessarily doing this. But here's the other thing I do. Listen, I'm not a therapist. I'm not trained as a therapist. So I do not, I don't pretend to be one ever. But what I do find is that if you are repeating patterns over and over again, that is about something. Right. So it is, listen, if you want to go back into your past or into your childhood and work through those issues and trauma, that's therapy. Right. That is not what I do. But if you want to go from where you are and move forward, then a coach is a good person to do that. And oftentimes a combination of a therapist and a coach can be very effective. I'm not saying you have to go to therapy in order to do coaching. But what I will say is, is that if you keep doing the same stuff, if you keep putting the same roadblocks in front of yourself, you keep doing the same things, then it is really important to just understand. Like that is, that's my dad telling me I'm not good enough. Right. That's my dad saying, oh, you got an A, why didn't you get an A plus? You got an A minus, shame on you. Right. Then just understanding like how you bring that into your current life, where it shows up for you and how you sabotage yourself can sometimes be very, very helpful. Again, it just depends on what is happening for you. Right. And oftentimes it's just a recognition, a mindfulness of, oh, yeah, okay. Because here's the thing, Rob, at the end of the day, if you understand the story that you tell yourself about yourself and why you are in a particular place and you're like, yeah, no, I'm actually going to choose something different. Right. But if you're not willing to see it, it's pretty hard to make a different decision. Yeah. You can't get, you're not going to find your way around the obstacle if you don't think it's an obstacle. You're just going to keep, you know, button your head into it basically. Exactly. Right. So, you know, we do a little, you know, a little, a little digging, not a lot. Right. Because again, I'm not a therapist. I'm not trained as one. Again, if you really want to deal with trauma, you want to deal with that stuff, you got to go, you got to go to therapy. That's not me. But if you want me to point out to you, like, hmm, sounds like same old story, right? Sounds like you're replaying that relationship. Why don't we, why don't we, why don't we replace that story so that you can move forward and not sabotage yourself yet again? That's a great way to get unstuck is that, yeah, if you're still doing, if you're doing the same thing you always did, you can't expect it to be any different, really. The outcome's not going to suddenly just magically change on you. Yeah, I think it's just not as, it's not as difficult and as painful, I think, as people think that it might be. Yeah, I think a lot of times, personal experience and plus other people that I've talked to, I think a lot of times we have these, you know, that's that whole eat the frog concept is like, there's just things that we have that are just, oh, it's too horrible. It's too bad. I can't deal with it. It's too big or whatever it is. And then you do it and it wasn't that bad. It's you know, I think that getting over that hump is key a lot of the times and it goes back to just like baby steps. It's just like, okay, it's too big. Well, let's just do a little baby step in. Let's dip a toe in. Let's see what we can do. And the next thing you know, hey, the water's okay. Let's go swim and you're off and running. Now, one of the things that you and I had talked about a little bit is a, that we share and I'm just curious to talk a little further on this when we talk about things we're not comfortable with, but growing in a company is like self-promotion. And this I think is something that very much speaks to developers. It goes back to really like the struggle you had with the engineers is that it's, it's salesy and I know a lot of developers that really that's, that is probably one of the biggest struggles they have. It almost feels like the, you know, the, the genius that's inventing all the, you know, inventive genius that has all these great inventions, but they can't, they're broke because they can never sell anything because they don't know how to promote things. Now, how do you, what was sort of what, you know, maybe that, maybe that was, what was your, you know, come to Jesus moment or your point there basically where you're like, you know what, I've got a, this is something I'm not comfortable with. I need to either, you know, I need to either solve the problem or I need to find somebody that will solve the problem for me. All right. Well, I have really two, I've really two things to say about that. First thing is you need to change your frame because what's really interesting is, is that you might hate to sell things, but you love to buy things. Right. Think about a situation the last time that you bought something where you had like, you were so excited and you had such a great experience. Right. What made it great? Probably part of that was your salesperson. Right. And, and, and that interaction, I think the second thing that I would say is that every time I get shy or uncomfortable about something that feels like promoting myself, what I remember is it's not about me. It's about the value to the client, the customer, the right. And so you are just the vehicle for them to get this fabulous thing that you've developed. It's going to help them or delight them or whatever, you know, whatever it is that your thing does. And so it's a constant reframing of what this experience is. And by the way, when I was working with those engineers, so I was not trying to deceive them. Like, like I said before, their livelihood depended on selling projects. Right. So their families needed them to sell projects. Right. And they couldn't do their technical expertise unless they had work to do. So it's not it's not trying to pull the wool under over somebody's eyes. It's really about how do you frame this so that you can get the results that you want and need. That's a, that is an excellent thought. I love the flipping it and think about it like I guess both of those say I like both of those pieces is the flipping it in the whole buying perspective. But also the this goes back to the question goes back to the why again, it's basically like, so what are you selling? Why is it that somebody wants your product? What is it? What is the pain you're alleviating or the pleasure you're going to get or whatever it is that comes out of that product? And then focusing on that versus the hey, it's me. I'm selling my product because it's not you're not the one that's actually unless I guess you are the product. But normally that's not our problem. It's it's really we're selling a solution. And even if we are the primary delivery, we're still not the solution. We are not what's being sold. It is our service, our intelligence, our skills, experience and those things. Right. And the thing is, is that, you know, because I am selling right. I mean, I'm I'm a coach. Right. So, you know. I quote unquote, sell coaching and then I am selling myself like I am the product. But here's the thing. It at the end of the day, it's not about me. Like you have something that you need to solve. Right. And so, you know, I am just, you know, along for the journey. Right. To help you get what you want. And by the way, I also and I believe this like in every cell of my body, if I can help you. Achieve more by helping you communicate better, by helping you manage your time better, by helping you under like move your belief system, at least maybe a little bit right, more aligned with what you want. There is a butterfly effect of that. Right. This is like a big mission. Right. And so it it feels way bigger than I'm just the catalyst. Right. Sometimes you just have to be the right, you know, you want to be the right cog in the right place of the wheel. And then suddenly everything starts to go. And without that one piece, right, nothing moves. Right. And, you know, the other thing that I would say to the developers, especially those that are selling something, I think sometimes we get way too fixated on like the one thing, the one person, the one company that needs to buy this, the one thing. And I think the other thing that is a really important piece of this is it's not personal. It's just not personal. Right. And so keeping that perspective and keeping a robust pipeline. Right. That's actually that is a great little segue into, I guess, one last thing as we're getting closer in here is like one of the things we talk about a lot is as service developers, as service providers, is that the technology is a huge area. Coaching is as well. And one of the things we often talk about is like the idea. How do you niche down? How do you take this big, huge umbrella that you're under and find something that fits for you? And I'd like to ask you, how did you, how did you go through that? How did you figure out what your coaching focus needed to be? Because obviously coaching is huge. You can be coaching football, you can be coaching professionals, you name it. Right. I think it's a combination of I think what I'm good at and what I love, because just like we talked about before, sometimes you can be good at something that you don't actually want to continue doing. Right. I think the other thing is to and this is probably as a developer and as somebody who is trying to get something off the ground is learning to say no to the wrong, to the wrong investor, to the to the wrong client. Right. To have a strong enough vision to understand that going. Listen, sometimes we don't know what we don't know. Right. But if your gut is telling you that this is not the right move, maybe it's not the right move. Yeah, and I found that is and that's just I'll throw that is it's a lot of times saying no to like that client, especially when you're in that survival mode where you're like, I just I got to get that project. I got to get that customer. But sometimes you're having to look ahead a little bit and go, oh, this is not the customer. This is not the project. If I do this, it's going to and there have been companies and businesses that the wrong thing sunk the whole deal. There's you go back to the dot com boom and probably find a bunch of companies that like, oh, we're just going to get a Super Bowl commercial. And then they weren't ready. They made a couple of wrong choices. They grew too fast. Things like that. And that's where I think it's I love the idea of having masterminds and networking groups and things like that, where you've got some sort of a essentially a referral network for lack of anything else to give you that one extra thing to be like, you know, this is not a person for me, but Kim would be exactly the person you need to talk to. And it gives you that little bit of extra like, OK, now I can brush them off and not feel like I'm just like saying no, I'm just saying, hey, here's a better solution than me. And then everybody wins. Absolutely. Yeah. I think I've just been doing this long enough that I know who a good client is for me. I think one thing I mean, I understand, like I have a I got a thing going on, right? Like I got I am like I'm very much I am who I am. So I think that is actually very helpful because I'm so clear about who I am and what I do. It really helps people decide that whether I am right for them or not. So at this point in my career, I I don't have to say no very often. Right. Like I feel like I I attract the people that I that are like my people. And so I it works well these days, but it of course takes a long time to get there. Right. Yeah. Is that that hill to climb that you got to figure out? What is it that sometimes somebody especially the ones are a little bit disguised, but it looks like a great customer, a great project, and it's not. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my criteria for the most part is that you're willing to you're willing to be you're willing to you're willing to move from where you are. Right. You're not coachable. Even if you even if you feel miserable, you're not coachable unless you're willing to to move right to solve something. Right. And so a couple of years ago, I actually did get duped by somebody, somebody who said all the right things and then got in. And then we started the coaching relationship and he was more looking for evidence. Well, you know, I talked to my friend about this and he said, I'm right. Right. Well, you may be right, but you're still going to end up losing your job if you don't change what you're doing. So good for you. You get to be right and unemployed. Yeah. But that's very often. Yeah. I mean, here's I think the other maybe here's the other thing that I would say. And we keep going back to the why. I feel like I am one of the luckiest entrepreneurs alive because because I have created my coaching practice to be working with people who I truly like I am in their corner forever. Doesn't matter how long they work with me. I am like I am in your corner forever. And like I just I love what I do. Truly, truly and passionate about helping people love it. And so, you know, the sky's the limit. Right. And that's that's the especially. Yeah. Especially when you love it, because you don't have to worry about burning out. You have that energy. You're like every day you get up and you're just happy to go do it again. I think that's what everybody should be looking for, especially if I think especially if you're in that where you're in that that side hustle mode and you're trying to figure out what how do you want to like move out of where you are. Just make sure you're moving into something that you're moving towards something instead of just getting away from what you're in. Right. Exactly. You know, and listen, I guess the other thing is to is that, you know, it's very common that it's going to take you a couple of iterations. Right. To get there. So, you know, it's it's important to know when to hold on and when to when to cut something and to not have a whole lot of mean, listen, you're going to feel your feels. But then you got to you got to move on. Right. Like, so what's the next idea and how are you going to make that happen? Right. And so look for good mentors out there, too. Right. And not just the gazillion. All right. Here's my you want to hear my last word on this, Rob? Here's I think the mistake that a lot of entrepreneurs, tech entrepreneurs make. They look at the and it's I'm just going to say guys, because really, it's mostly guys that like had this small idea and it exploded and now they're gazillionaires. Right. And that is that's the dream. Right. And I think that, you know, that is maybe one percent of everybody who succeeds. But it's what the ideal is. And maybe. Don't idolize those people quite so much. Right. Their past was their path. The other thing I would say is be. Be curious and be realistic about who you are. And don't just bring in clones of yourself because you need diversity. And I'm not talking, you know, listen, where people are from and their orientations and all those things, that's a conversation for another day. But I think what you need is you need people who think differently than you, who solve problems differently than you. And that's another mistake that a lot of startups make, which is they bring in their friends and they have group think. And then there's just a lot of holes that you can't see, which is which is a lot of the reason Rob White people hire you. Right. Because they they lose that big picture. Yeah, that is very much a yeah. Watch out, because otherwise you would be a lot of people who are not going to be able to see you. You end up. Yeah, group think is quite a thing, and especially in companies that tech companies have got a lot of that where they sort of hire and you get success and you keep doing the same thing over and over. And it doesn't necessarily help you out. It's just like cloning in general, like things start to fall apart as you get deeper into that. Just like our time management skills have just sort of gone away again, the time has flown right on by. And so obviously now people have got because you are you. People have got a good feel of who you are. What if they're sitting there saying, gosh, I would love to work with her or I definitely don't want to work with her. Whatever. What's the best way for them to reach out? They're like, this is not the person for me. Too much energy. I'm not going to tell her that. But I want to contact her and say, I thought about you until I heard you on the podcast. What's the best way for them to reach out to talk to you? Probably the easiest way is either go to my website, which is Kim Miller Herschand dot com or go to my LinkedIn. I'm very, very active on LinkedIn. So all my contact information and actually, if you go to my website, you can book a you can book a 30 minute consultation. And the only thing I would say, I'm sure, Rob, it's very similar to you, is that it's complimentary. And it is an exploratory conversation to figure out if I might be the right person for you and if you are the right person for me, no obligation. You know, if it's right, we'll figure we'll figure it out. And if it's not. And just like you said, if it's not and you need a referral to somebody else, I'll I'll help you find the right person. That is awesome, because that's your why. So thank you, everybody, for hanging out, for speaking with for listening to us talk for a while. And hopefully you got as much out of this as I did, because once again, that's why we do these. We get so much out of these conversations. And it is it's a different it is a diversity of thought. We get different backgrounds and opinions and things like that that I think help quite a bit. Hopefully that has triggered a couple of things. If you're getting stuck somewhere, if you're struggling, that you've got now some ideas of maybe where to go forward and how to change where you are so you can get into that future state that hopefully will be much, much better where you are. As always, we appreciate you guys for all of you hanging out there with us. Thank you so much for spending some time and go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week. And we will talk to you next time. This was sponsored by R.B. Consulting, your partner in building smarter, scalable tech from startups to established teams. R.B. Consulting helps you turn tech chaos into clarity with proven roadmaps and hands on expertise. Visit R.B. S&S dot com to start your next step forward. Also sponsored by Envision QA, they help businesses take control of their software by focusing on what matters most quality, reliability and support you can count on. Find out more at Envision QA dot com. Thanks for tuning in to the Develop and We're Podcast, where we're all about building better developers and better careers. I'd love to hear your thoughts, your feedback. So drop a note to info at DevelopandWe're dot com. Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube or wherever you listen. And remember, a little bit of effort every day adds up to a great success. Keep learning, keep growing, and we'll see you in the next episode.