Detailed Notes
In this episode of the Building Better Developers podcast, Rob Broadhead and Michael Meloche dive into the importance of PTO taking breaks—and why long weekends just aren’t enough. They share personal stories, hard lessons, and practical strategies for developers, entrepreneurs, and business owners who are struggling to take real time off.
Whether you’re burning out, glued to your laptop on vacation, or feel irreplaceable in your business, this episode is for you.
🔑 Key topics covered: • Why PTO isn’t just for employees • The myth of irreplaceability • Why short breaks don’t recharge you • Designing businesses that can run without you • How rest increases productivity
🎯 Challenge of the week: Reflect on your most productive daily rhythm and plan a real 4+ day break without technology.
Read more: https://develpreneur.com/pto-taking-breaks/
👉 Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more episodes on building better businesses and becoming a better developer.
📬 Contact us at: [email protected] 📱 Follow us: Twitter/X: @developerneur LinkedIn + Facebook: Developerneur
#PTO #TakingBreaks #Burnout #DeveloperLife #BuildingBetterBusinesses #ProductivityTips
Transcript Text
[Music] Okay, welcome back everybody. We have been chatting for a while about games. Um, short summary bonus because you're on YouTube. Um, Skyrim or no, Oblivion apparently is going to show up again soon in like a new version. If you like it, if you don't like it, try it out. It is really is a fun time. And then the other one is the one that I always forget, which is not Forgotten Worlds. It is tell me the name. Outer Worlds. I don't know why I always forget that. Outer Worlds 2 is coming out in 25, probably fall Christmasy time. If you haven't played Outer Outerorlds one, do so. If you haven't played Fallout Vegas plus the DLC, I'm just going to say I I have a family of gamers. They talk to gamers. It is, I think, like canon that Vegas, Fallout Vegas plus DLC is the best combo of stuff that exists in the gamers universe if you're in RPGs. Now, if you're in JRPGs or other stuff, you guys just sorry, you're just missing out. But as far as story lines, we don't get paid for this part. But yes, the Amazon Prime Fallout series was really good, too. It was. And they need a second season, which speaking of second seasons, The Last of Us season two is coming out. I'm going to be very interested in that because I really enjoyed last weekend. Oh, does it come out now? When this came out, it'll be two episodes in by the time you watch this. Okay. So, important things for Okay, we're going to geek out for a second. So, Last of Us season 2. Um, oh shoot, I forgot. Captain America 2 or Captain America. No, the series. Uh, oh shoot. What is it? You'll think of it. It's all the kids that were Things. No, the other one. Um, shoot. What is it called? It's like a family of superpowered kids. And they one, two, three, four, five, and six are their their numbers are one through six. Not Gen Z. Oh. Oh my gosh. I can't believe I forgot this. See, this is what happens when you drink something other than caffeine beforehand. Uh, I'm like logging into Netflix right now because it is Oh, I can't believe I can't think of what. Not Super Six. No, it's not Super Six. That's not it. It is. Um, let me use my little This is what happens when you have decades of sci-fi, superheroes, gaming. We have way too much stuff to think about. You know that. I think maybe it's a time we explore our options. Great. Let's see. I don't want that. I want um Umbrella Academy. Umbrella Academy. Yes. Yes. The the last season of that is out. Um, actually something that I started and I'm like give it a shot. I haven't really I don't have my thoughts on it. I would love to hear at info developer.com. I would love to hear your thoughts on um the the next generation Walking Dead stuff, the one who's ones who live and stuff like that. U I actually did have not finished walking dead. I finished with the uh when the whisperers and if this is spoilers, I'm sorry. This is years ago when the whisperers swept through and did some serious damage and killed some characters that I really liked. And I'm like everybody else they killed off in that series. Not happy. Glenn, I'm talking about you. Uh Carl, God, that hurt. Okay, that's a whole another that's a whole another podcast. Um, love to hear how that goes. Honey in Cabos. Oh, why is this? Okay, I don't want this to like stuff. Okay, anyways, back on track. This train has gone all the way over the edge and we were Looney Tunes rolling it back on. I apologize to all you people that are not here for entertainment but are here for technology. This episode uh we talked about it and I think I want to do let me go back to this. This is this is going to be a fun one, I think, because I really want to do PTO, which personal time off. I I really think this is this is something that needs to be said. Every entrepreneur, every side hustler that out there, honestly, everybody that runs a company, and this is if I think I I think I've been I've like shared this over the season. I have a company RB Consulting has employees. I'm I was employee number one. I have other employees. Sadly enough, most of them have my same last name. Uh I have consultants now that are part of my company that actually have my same last name. But it's because I gave birth. I didn't give birth. I was part of the birth of people that are also technicians and nerds much as myself. And we run in the same circles. Um, so this is an actual company. So whether you are a side hustle, but I think more importantly if you are a company and even if you are employed, especially if you're employed and you're like trying to make bank or set up a side hustle or something like that, I think this PTO is going to be something that's very important to you. And so, uh, once again, this is an episode I've been drinking, uh, non-caffeine. Uh the other side of that, I've been doing a little tequila because I learned and this is like this could be another podcast as well. I'm a wine person in general, red wines, dry wines. Um Malbecks are probably my favorites. Uh a good Cabernet Svenon with a steak. I'm like I'm a food and wine person. Lots of cheeses and wines. But if I'm going to have like a heavy meal, uh even if it's like a mahi mahi or uh salmon, definitely steaks and beef, there's like or barbecue, there's like I'm a wine person, but I'm also because live in Tennessee, love some whisies. I've like worked my way through the whiskey trail. Uh Nearest Green, by far my favorite. They're rye. their uh all of the uh oh actually their cheaper whiskey is better than their more expensive whiskey. Uh no offense to JD Jack Daniels is the same way. I'm not a huge fan of Jack Daniels. I'm sorry I can't say like people will come and cart me away in Tennessee. Uh but their best Gentleman Jack I would actually go with straight up Jack Daniels before I go with Gentleman Jack. Uh Dominics in Memphis, one of the best whisies all around. If they didn't get impacted by the flooding, that's true. Uh but they still got some good stuff out there. There's a there's a lot of really good uh if you're into whisies, I am. I also have become uh I was I had a bad experience as most people do with tequila at an early age and got away from it. And now I've become more tequila curious, I guess, as they say, is I have realized that it actually has a lot of different flavors. And although you may think otherwise as you watch the episode that's about to occur, I'm actually more about the flavors than I am about like the alcohols themselves. Uh, note to you kids, when you get older, don't bother drinking until you're like in your 30s and 40s because your pallet needs to progress to the point that you can actually appreciate this stuff and are not just sucking down useless stuff. That's my like PSA right there. That's the one PSA that developer will ever have. Apologies for anything that I do before we start this episode. And a three, a two, and a one. Hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season. We're building better businesses, but actually the podcast is building better developers. The original title of this was developer, but if you ever ask one of your woman in the box, one of those devices to play the developer podcast, they have problems with it. So that's why we also are building better developers because that one they will say and if you say that if I were to say that right now and you had one of those devices, it would actually start playing the most recent episode. Pretty cool stuff. That's technology also. Cool stuff. I am Rob Broadhead. I am one of the founders of developer building better developers. Also a founder of RB Consulting where let's face it technology technology sprawl it's exhausting if you are not in a a technology world. If this is not something that you do as your daily bread basically I've been doing technology for decades. My team has been working in technology also for long periods of time. This is what we do. We eat it for breakfast. We know what's out there and we help you because we sit down with you. We un we like we want to understand your business because everybody is unique. Every business is unique. We sit down, we craft a unique recipe for success for you based on the technology that is out there and we also set it up so that you're prepared for whatever is going to come 6 months, a year, six years from now. We use integration, simplification, automation, innovation, and just helping you build the right team, the right, you know, army to go to war with for the technology you need for your business. That is our secret sauce is we understand yours and we find the best way to use technology and leverage it for whatever it is that you need. Good things and bad things. Good thing is it has been a day. This is one of those I'm just going to get like really I'm going to get real with you guys. You listeners, me familia, you guys have been here for a long time. You have seen me through thick and thin. We have talked to all kinds of different people through interviews over the years. We have covered all kinds of topics. Today is one of those days where you get to the end of the day and we're just exhausted. If you're a developer, if you are in business, if you are solving problems, I think it can be hard to for other people to understand how much getting to the end of the day can just have you ready to go have a drink, chill out, watch the sunset, whatever it happens to be. That's where we're at. At this point, it is very late in the day, and I went switched over to adult beverages sooner probably than I should have. Uh, so the good thing is is that I do have the adult beverages that I have this opportunity to vent that I have Michael on the other end that is able to like we can talk, we can chat, we can talk about all it, share our experiences are we could we haven't cried, but we could have cried together about some of this stuff. Uh, and that's that's a good thing. The bad thing is is that I've gotten to the end of the day and it's just exhausting. A better thing is that now Michael is going to go introduce himself. the guy that I just like set the table for. Go ahead and introduce yourself and let us know what's going on with you. Hey everyone, my name is Michael Malashsh. I'm one of the co-founders of Developer Building better developers. I'm also the founder of a company called Envision QA where we take test-driven development and we apply that to software development to help small to mid-size companies, clinicians, doctors, whoever look at the software you're using, look at your office, look at your company, and we make sure that uh what you are using to try to run your business works for your business. We will do a full assessment of your software. We will get into the nitty-gritty. We will get down and dirty with you and we will help you figure out if at the end of the day what you're paying for really is helping you, hurting you, or if you need to pivot, buy something else or build something specific for your needs. That is where we come in. Good thing, bad thing. Good thing having a great time with Rob tonight. We are way off the rails. So, enjoy this podcast. Uh, bad thing is, well, we are off the rails. Um, no. Um, our house. I'll leave it at that. Back to you. We're gonna talk about This is so timely. We are sometimes smarter than we think with some of our topics. We're going to talk about PTO. We're talk about taking a little time, chilling out, getting away from your work. the the subject line or whatever is basically like PTO is not just for employees. That's sort of like the catch the the hook that Michael threw out when he said, "Hey, here's a topic." And I agree. This is a really challenging topic for me in particular because I will preach it, but I don't do it. Now, let me set the table a little bit. my company and I' I had this a little bit in the pre-show. I talked about this. In my company, there is no such thing as PTO. I mean, it is, but we don't track it actually. If you need to take a day off, you take a day off. You need to take a half a day off, you take a half a day off. Part of this goes to me, and I just I get tired of red tape and the accounting side of that stuff. Part of it goes to my team works. my team gets crap done and so if they need to take a day off for whatever reason, if they need to and a lot of times honestly I have to push them to take a week off or some you know serious amount of time because their days off are like you know births, deaths, weddings, the things that you have to take a day off for. They like it is very rare actually. Okay. Or video game releases. Yeah, we don't do that. So, God bless her. Natalie said when we were sitting down and putting together the like holiday calendar for RB Consulting, she said, "You need to make sure that everybody automatically gets their birthday off." And I said, "WTF?" Nobody does that because I don't even know my birthday half the times. I There have been there have been years it has been days after my birthday. I'm like, "Oh, I just had a birthday. And God bless her. She's right. We need to do that kind of stuff. So there's things like that that you should take a day off. Now, as a business owner, I'm going to throw another There's a good thing, bad thing. So I was going to take a day off this Friday, couple days from now. And the person on the other end of the internet that is the happens to be the co-host of this because we're working on a project. He was like, "Hey, actually he was not the one that did this, so I'm not going to throw him under the bus, but it was like, hey, we need to get together. We need to have an offsite. We need to do some stuff. We need to do like these things." Which totally agree 100% need to get those stuff done. This Friday that I was going to take off probably was not the day was the last day I wanted to do it. But when I looked at my schedule ahead, I'm like, "Yes, we need to do it on Friday." So, I am I am preaching not to the choir. I am preaching to the choir that is walking out of the church right now because I struggle to take PTO. I struggle to take time off. In the last five years, this is like confession time right now. In the last 5 years, the time that I have taken off where I was not working during the vacation, I think is like maybe twice in five years. The most recent one was not too long ago because my wife said, "You will not take a laptop with you." No matter how much I tried, she's like, "You will not take a laptop with you. I will throw it off the boat." And she probably would have. And so I took four days, five days. It ended up being five whole days that I did not touch my laptop. My laptop was crying when I got back to it. It said, "Why do you forget me? Where did you go?" No, it didn't. It didn't give a squat because laptops have no personality. They are not people. So moral of that story is you can take time off. Another bonus of that is that I took one of these employees that I was like, "Okay, I can probably trust him." He knocked it out of the park and ran the meetings. Nothing blew up. I got back, still had a business, still had employees. We were still like making payroll and all of the things that matter. And I say that because as a side hustler, as a entrepreneur, and sometimes even as an employee, we do not take time off. We we think way too much of ourselves. We have to be here. We have to get this project done. This will not gun get done without us. And honestly, sometimes our a-hole bosses will do that to us as well and say, "I need you here." But you know what? You need to set boundaries. You need to realize that work is not the rest of your life. And honestly, taking a break, getting away most often will actually end up improving your productivity as opposed to you working your butt off late at night through the weekend. This is something we've talked about before. You need to know when to step away. But PTO in itself, before I toss it over to Michael, that's one of these things that I think we underestimate it. And what I will throw in there is that a three-day weekend is not going to cut it because we need time to decompress before we can actually relax. If you take a three-day weekend, Friday you're still freaking out about all the stuff that didn't happen on Friday. Saturday you're worried about all the stuff that you didn't get done on Friday and you're thinking about all the stuff that should happen on Sunday. Sunday, you're thinking about, crap, I'm going to get to work on Monday, and there's going to be a tile pile of work. And Monday at like 8:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m., you may finally chill out for a minute and say, "Wow, I just had a three-day weekend." And then boom, you're back into the next week. Take more time off. I will tell you, I will go to the mat on this one. years and years and years and years and years ago I took because of how it felt how it fell that year. I took a twow weekek vacation at the end of the year and then a couple years later I did it again. When I have been able to take a real two week vacation even a week and be like I'm not thinking about work those are so refreshing recharging and I get back to work just like crying almost that I want to go back to work. That is a v the vacation, the PTO that you need to take. Do not get yourself in a situation. Although there is a benefit and there's a way that you can leverage this. If you get in the point where you're like, I have to spend my PTO because otherwise I'm going to lose it. And I know a lot of people that do this and they end up taking three-day weekends like week after week after week. They just do four day work weeks to the end of the year so they can burn through their PTO. There is some that you can leverage that. You can make that work, but that is not going to work as far as like sanity and recharging and stuff like that. An actual rest and vacation. For example, I'm going to take rest and vacation. I'm going to take a sip of my drink and I'm going to pass it over to Michael. What are your thoughts on this? Because I know both of us suck at this. So, I'm going to start out with a horror story. So, I'm going to start out with one. So, after college, I had a couple jobs before I landed my first developer job. I had a couple teaching jobs where life was actually pretty good, but then I got into what I thought was what I love to do, which honestly is. Uh, I started working for this healthcare company in Nashville. And seven year or actually I I worked there for about seven years. And five years into the company, working for the company, I took a week off, went with my wife. She had a business conference. I went with her to Vegas and I'm out climbing a mountain and get a phone call on the as I'm hanging off this mountain that oh the you know stuff's on fire. I'm like what do you mean stuff's on fire? The problem I had was I was the only person that did what I did at the company for seven years. They had I had no backup. When you, it doesn't matter what you do, you need to be able to pull yourself out of the job and have a break. 6 months after that incident, I quit that job. Now, did I learn my lesson? No. Um, we run into these situations in almost any company we work at. We want to be good at what we do. We tend to position ourselves depending upon where you're at or what you're doing or where you're at in your career. You position yourself to be very reliable or basically they can't eliminate you. Like you are they have to have you. You they have to irreplaceable is the word. That's the word. um you're irreplaceable and unfortunately that's a bad thing for those of us that want to start companies and build businesses. You need to build the business. You need to build things in a such a way where you can remove yourself. You are not the lynchpin that runs the company. The company needs to run itself. You help facilitate the company. You help facilitate the growth of the company. But the company should not live, die or breathe on your existence. That should never happen. You need to eliminate yourself as the blocker of your business succeeding. Tim Ferrris had a great statement of this when he talked about trying to sell his Brainquit company where he could not extract himself. He had to figure out how to eliminate himself from the company. If he were to leave, how could he sell the company? You need to think in terms of that wherever you are. Be you are an employee, you are a business owner, you are a developer, you are an an entrepreneur, we need we we love what we do, but at the end of the day, we need to figure out how to reset. Rob knows this. This is where this topic came from. I am horrible at this. Absolutely horrible. I will take PTO to work on other things. We have to pay bills. We have obligations. We have things we there are things that always stack up. There are always something that needs to be done. At the end of the day, what are you doing to be a better person, a better developer, a better business owner, and a better like family man, husband, whoever. But we need to figure out what we want. And it's not work. I talked about last episode. I took a stroll in the yard the other day and just like what am I doing, you know? What am I working for? Why why am I doing what I'm doing? And it's like, oh, trees, yard, land, birds, guineies that freaking do whatever the hell they want. Chickens that get eaten by dogs or coyotes, fish, turtles. Bottom line is we have one life. We stress about way too much crap we don't care about or really we have no control over. Take the time. Take the PTO. Take the break. You owe it to yourself to reset or we're going to burn out. We're going to fail. We're going to get into those cycles where because we're not taking those pauses. We're going to get into those feedback loops where we are doing the same thing again and again and again which is by definition insanity. You need to do different things over time. So please, if you get anything from this episode is PTO, vacation time, breaks, pause, take a step back from what you're doing every day. And it could be as simple as turn focus mode, like turn off your phones, turn off the video games, turn off the TV, do something different that helps you reset, helps you relax, and helps you get back to the status quo. Because at the end of the day, if you find yourself like, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing it. It's like, oh, I'm busy, busy, busy. No, you do not want to be busy at work. You want to be productive. If you are not being productive in anything you're doing, you're doing it wrong. Take a step back, reset. What is it that you need to be doing? Do that or do nothing. Take a pause. Call your boss and say, "Hey, I need a break. I need a mental break. I need a sick day. Something." If you find yourself cycling, step back, take a break, pause. You know, that's where this whole idea of the PTO, taking a break, came from. We, especially as entrepreneurs, as owners, as you know, entrep you know, business owners, we run businesses. We are the business or at least we think we are the business. And if the business, if we aren't there, the business will fail. That happens more times than you think in anything that we do, not just running a business. Pause. Take a break. What is important to you in your life? And if you're not doing it, take a few days off. Find it again. If you don't, you are missing out or you're burning out to the point that you are going to crash and burn. and crash and burn is not where you want to be. That that is a sign that you need to walk it back. Thoughts, Rob? I we have talked about burnout being devastating to us because we are all go go go kind of people. I I'm going to give you some some thoughts on what I have found has worked for me. May or may not work for you. And actually, I've gotten away from it and I've realized how much it does work for me. Go back, flashback sometime in the past. I honestly don't even remember when I last was actually able to do this. I would work. I would basically get up about 6:00 a.m. in the morning and start work because I would do a lot of like pre-work stuff. So, I had about an hour to like chill and get started on my day. And about 7 o'clockish I would start work and then I would work until about 11 and start about 700 7:30 and work about 11 11:30. So I get it four hours in focus on usually one or two projects and honestly we've talked a lot about like the 15 minutes a day kind of stuff. Usually my first hour would be four 15 minute a day things that I wanted to make progress on. So I'd be like made progress on A B C D. So, I would start my day by 8:30 in the morning. Usually, I had like progress on the things I really want to progress on and then I was into a project, get to about 11:30, and I would break for lunch and I would have something to eat. I may make myself a meal. I may get a meal, whatever. I may go for a walk for a while. I would read for a little bit or something like that. I may, you know, something to chill. and then about 1 1:30 get back to work. I would take a nice long lunch break, we'll call it. And then from 1:30, I'd work till about 5 or 5:30. Again, usually that was like my primary whatever my primary job was. I'd spend a good four hours, like solid hours cranking on that, maybe two projects. A lot of times it was just one. Get to the end of the day, 5 5:30, whatever it was. maybe six depending on how my day went. Done. I was free to do whatever I wanted the rest of the evening. Could go do whatever. Get to sleep at a decent hour, get up next morning, start it again, do it all over again. That is actually for me that was a really good rhythm. Worked out well. Your rhythm rhythm may be a little bit different, but I'm going to guess that the blocks of time that I had in there are going to be roughly the same. You may be someone that needs four blocks of two hours, one block of eight. I don't know. I don't know anybody that knows one block of eight. Most people are like four blocks of two, maybe two blocks of four, something like that. Because it goes back to the whole pomodoro and some of those things. There's like only a certain amount of time that we can really focus on something before we need to step away from it. It becomes actually more productive to step away and stop than it does to continue beating your head against whatever that problem is. The my recent schedule is I get up at and I'm going by 6:00 a.m. I skip lunch. I don't do anything else but work until 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. depending on the day. Sometimes I leave a little early. If I if I leave early, I feel guilty the whole time that I didn't get work done. And if I work late, then I feel better. But then I work until I go to sleep. And that's a bad and that is a good example of what not to do. Exactly. People around me, people that know me will tell you that is not the pleasant version of Rob. The one that I was before is what people want me to be. And honestly, it's what I want me to be. Because funny enough, I felt at the end of the day when I was doing that like 424 kind of, you know, four hours of work, two hours of break, four hours of work. When I did that schedule, I got to the end of the day and regardless of what I did, I always felt more productive than I do right now. Now, part of it is I have overloaded my schedule. So, that is something you need to take care of. However, PTO, taking time off, realizing that just working at whatever it is is not always the best way to approach it is where to go. What is the challenge you want to give our listeners for today? I'm glad you reminded me because I probably would have just like carried on and not done the challenge. Here's a challenge. This is this is a challenge that we've actually talked about a lot, but I think it is worth wherever you are at I think this is a challenge is really worthwhile. I've I've gone back to this recently and it was as long as I've been doing this, as much as I know a lot of my strengths and weaknesses and where I went to, this is actually was a very valuable challenge for me uh exercise for me and so I hope it is for you as well. The challenge is to sit down and think about what is your most productive schedule. I know this is getting a little bit this drifting off of PTO, but is like, are you a morning person? Are you a night person? Are you a middle of the day person? Are you a split your day person? Like for myself, morning, afternoon, I need the evening needs to be nothing but whatever the heck I want to do, whether I want to play games or I want to go out, whether I want to sleep, whatever it is. One of my employees I know is very much a like not early morning maybe like a nineto one person and then like a nineto one person big break so midm morning like normal work hours for people and then like night out hours I've got another employee best work hours are like probably like 9 or 10 p.m. until like 5 6 a.m. just like shut out the world and just go do some stuff. So, while this is not related to PTO, that's really the challenge. The side note, PTO is when was the LA, this is just really a question. It's an easy one. When was the last time you took more than four days off in a row without your technology? And isn't it time that you do it now? That is where we at. Another thing, it is time right now for you to send us an email at [email protected]. I was like last episode, if you've been following along, Michael actually took over on the YouTube side, so you can go check that out. He's going to do it again today. He doesn't know it, but he's going to because I thought he did a great job. Go for it out at [email protected], Twitter or xdeveloper. We're on Facebook and LinkedIn at developer. And please follow us, send comments, wherever podcasts are. Let us know what you think and please reach out. We will follow or reach out to you as soon as you send us something or whenever we see your comments. That is a perfect example of PTO. I'm actually gonna go like log that I did whatever that was 30 seconds of PTO on my developer time card because that's what you need to do is you need to learn how to expand. I will wrap this one up because Michael did such a great job so succinctly. I just want to let you guys know we do appreciate you. Thank you for hanging out with us. Please take some time off. protect your sanity because that is like the mental stuff is so much a part of our work. Go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week and we will talk to you next time. All right, bonus mature. Wow, we get a little whatever little wine in you and suddenly you're like taking off. I'm gonna get bottle of wine per episode and you're going to be like, "Dude, I am done. I got it all done. I don't even have to say a word. Um, PTO, you know, if you find yourself thinking about work or overstressing, like thinking on a topic, like overthinking something, when you're not when when you're not on the clock, if you're constantly in like connected or in I forget the freaking term, but when you're plugged in, if you're always plugged in, you're doing something wrong. Unplug and be careful with what you do when you are unplugged. There are triggers you can still do when you're unplugged that still plugs you in. It's like, okay, my day job, I do Java all day. Okay, so in my off time, oh, I'm reading Java novels or books on Java or watching tuto. You're still plugged in. Pick time and periods where you are not doing anything related to your day job, your side hustle, anything related to work. Read a book, play a game, but be careful. Make sure whatever it is you're doing, it is relaxing. It is helping to reduce the endorphins from the stress of the job. Recently, I found out that one of my favorite games, Darkest Dungeon, was actually causing more anxiety off of my day job. Even though I love the game, it was anxiety inducing. Rob's laughing, but it's true. You can pick something to do that you think is fun, but is actually a trigger for what you are still like what you're living. So, be careful about that. I've had to take days where I don't play video games at all. I love video games, but sometimes you have to stop because the games you're playing are still touching on the triggers that your day job and triggers. Basically, I if something triggers anxiety, stop it. Take a break. Take a PTO day. Do something else unrelated. It will help. Now, like I said, video games are my thing. They're my go-to. I love playing Diablo. I love playing um Path of Exile 2. But like Darkest Dungeon, oh my god, I spin that game up after a bad day. It's like, oh, this is fun. Like five hours later, I'm still playing it. I'm like, my anxiety level has not dropped. My relaxation level is not down here. It is like way beyond even where I left work because the game is so challenging. What I'm doing may be fun, but it is still pushing that anxiety, pushing that stress beyond what you did for your day job. So, you have to find that balance. You have to figure out what you do during the day and what you do in your personal time. Do they balance? If they don't balance, you need to step back and figure out what can I do differently in my off hours besides unre recre recreational drugs uh to detract from your day job. Wow, we just became a an NC17 podcast. Well, I mean, we're trying, so we're already there. Uh, let's see if I can get Oh, it doesn't pick that up. Oh, that's cool. There. There you go. So, uh, back to you. I'm already off the rails. Yeah. So, I have moved. This is one of the things is the phone is like one of those things job-wise. I was hitting stuff up too much and so I went to black and white mode, which is what I just showed you. Like the iPhone will do that. I've talked before there's a there's a book called Digital I think it's called Digital Detox and it's a 40-day uh detox of digital, which is insanely difficult if you're like me and you live in the digital world that you're on laptops all the time and stuff like that. However, very useful. Um there's so much that Michael talked about that that is important. Okay, I will share my son actually I have two sons that do this but one in particular his favorite game is something called uh OSU or Geometry Dash. Both of those or the impossible game which is goes way back but these are his g they are the speeduns. Um they're rhythm games like you just got to like know what the rhythm is. He will yell and scream and cuss at that game. And I haven't dealt with him in a while about this, but I would tell him it's like just shut the game off. If it makes you that crazy, play Animal Planet or something like that. Like just Mario your way through this. I don't know what it is. Find something that is chill. I personally gamewise love games that are I love a game where I can have a drink. I can shoot stuff and blow a bunch of crap up. So, not beer. Actually, what I said not beer pong. No, not beer paw. I love like a good Fallout. I love Skyrim because I can go drinking, shooting ma nasty beasties, kill them all, and then go like, I don't know, fish for a little while afterwards or just wander through a trail and go find the top of a mountain. The thing about all of this is what regenerates you. This is very near and dear to my heart because I've just been through a season where I realized that some stuff that I thought that gave me energy that regenerated me that just because of what they were, they were a positive, but they were actually a drain. They were a negative. And depending on who you are and what your personality type is, I will give you a an example for you to work with. If you are an introvert, go sit in a crowd for 15 minutes. Crowd like people bump it up on you. What do you feel like after those 15 minutes? That is what draining is because that's who you are. You're an introvert. You don't do crowds. They drain you. If you're an extrovert, go sit by yourself for 15 minutes. No interaction with other people. How do you feel? That is what draining is. Now it becomes challenging because our lives are complex. We have work, we have personal relationships, we have romantic relationships, we have familial relationships, we have all this stuff. But some of those things drain us and some of those things will energize us. The whole PTO thing is figure out what energizes you. Be honest with yourself and go chase what energizes you. Now, I get that some people have really weird things or uncommon things that energize them. Some people are, we'll call it freaky or whatever. It may be that you're energized by watching reruns of All in the Family or that you are um you love classic Britcoms or that you really enjoy walking through a forest or there's so many things out there and or maybe sitting on a podcast. I don't know what it is. Find out what energizes you. When you're thinking about PTO, make sure that when you take that time off, that part of that time off is doing the things that energize you. I started this way back talking about my two week period of time off that I took at the end of the year many years ago. And I was like, that was so awesome. The reason it was awesome is because during that time period, I listened to Christmas. It was during the end of the year, Christmas time. I listened to Christmas music like 24/7. I played games, probably six to eight hours of games a day, probably Oblivion, like RPG, open world RPGs that just allow me to just detach from everything else. And then I spent some time, as you will see now, as you know, I had some time like having a little cheese, a little crackers, maybe drinking a glass of wine, talking with my kids and my wife at the time. That stuff energizes me. A little bit of personal interaction, a good mix because I'm I'm not an extrovert. I'm not fully an introvert. I'm somewhere I'm an ambbervert. I'm somewhere in there. I like some people time. I like some n I like some me time. gaming like those kind there's a lot of this stuff like figure out which one you like. So gaming like online games not my thing. Mind sweeper not my thing. There's like there's certain things figure out like reading if you like to read figure out what kind of books energize you and which ones drain you. Like Michael said it may be that you really like your work. you love to read books on Java or Pearl or Python or whatever the heck it is. And wow, I dang the ding the heck out of that class. Um, but it also may be that you enjoy sci-fi or fantasy or trash romance or travel or you name it. Make sure that part of your schedule during your PTO is including those kinds of things. That is what will actually recharge you and make that PTO valuable enough that the next time you have an opportunity to do so, you're going to embrace it. Now, we've gone way long. It is. And with that, I want to end this one with send us a message [email protected]. reach us on X, Facebook, developer.com, anywhere these podcasts, YouTube are located. Send us a message. We don't mind any messages you send us. I may hate spam or people trying to sell us stuff, but hey, we will respond regardless. It may be like buzz off, but hey, let us know. send us a message and have a great time and take a break. He is burning through all my PTO time by now taking over this part, but that's okay. As always, go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, a great time off. Chill out, enjoy life, because there's more to it than just this. Building better developers is about building better you, not just your technology skills. Have a good one. Talk to you later. As a kid say, peace out. [Music]
Transcript Segments
[Music]
Okay, welcome back everybody. We have
been chatting for a while about games.
Um, short summary bonus because you're
on YouTube.
Um, Skyrim or no, Oblivion apparently is
going to show up again soon in like a
new version. If you like it, if you
don't like it, try it out. It is really
is a fun time. And then the other one is
the one that I always forget, which is
not Forgotten Worlds. It is tell me the
name. Outer Worlds. I don't know why I
always forget that. Outer Worlds 2 is
coming out in 25, probably fall
Christmasy time. If you haven't played
Outer Outerorlds one, do so. If you
haven't played Fallout Vegas plus the
DLC, I'm just going to say I I have a
family of gamers. They talk to gamers.
It is, I think, like canon that Vegas,
Fallout Vegas plus DLC is the best combo
of stuff that exists in the gamers
universe if you're in RPGs. Now, if
you're in JRPGs or other
stuff, you guys just sorry, you're just
missing out. But as far as story lines,
we don't get paid for this part. But
yes, the Amazon Prime Fallout series was
really good, too. It was. And they need
a second season, which speaking of
second seasons, The Last of Us season
two is coming out. I'm going to be very
interested in that because I really
enjoyed last weekend. Oh, does it come
out now? When this came out, it'll be
two episodes in by the time you watch
this. Okay. So, important things for
Okay, we're going to geek out for a
second. So, Last of Us season 2. Um, oh
shoot, I forgot. Captain America 2 or
Captain America. No, the series. Uh, oh
shoot. What is it? You'll think of it.
It's all the kids that were Things. No,
the other one.
Um, shoot. What is it called? It's like
a family of superpowered kids. And they
one, two, three, four, five, and six are
their their numbers are one through six.
Not Gen Z. Oh. Oh my gosh. I can't
believe I forgot this. See, this is what
happens when you drink something other
than caffeine beforehand. Uh, I'm like
logging into Netflix right now because
it is Oh, I can't believe I can't think
of what. Not Super Six. No, it's not
Super Six. That's not it. It is. Um, let
me use my little This is what happens
when you have decades of sci-fi,
superheroes, gaming. We have way too
much stuff to think about. You know
that. I think maybe it's a time we
explore our options. Great.
Let's see. I don't want that. I want um
Umbrella Academy. Umbrella Academy. Yes.
Yes. The the last season of that is out.
Um, actually something that I started
and I'm
like give it a shot. I haven't really I
don't have my thoughts on it. I would
love to hear at info developer.com. I
would love to hear your thoughts on um
the
the next generation Walking Dead stuff,
the one who's ones who live and stuff
like that. U I actually did have not
finished walking dead. I finished with
the uh when the whisperers and if this
is spoilers, I'm sorry. This is years
ago when the whisperers swept through
and did some serious damage and killed
some characters that I really liked. And
I'm like everybody else they killed off
in that series. Not
happy. Glenn, I'm talking about you. Uh
Carl, God, that hurt. Okay, that's a
whole another that's a whole another
podcast.
Um, love to hear how that goes. Honey in
Cabos. Oh, why is this? Okay, I don't
want this to like stuff. Okay, anyways,
back on track.
This train has gone all the way over the
edge and we were Looney Tunes rolling it
back on. I
apologize to all you people that are not
here for entertainment but are here for
technology. This episode uh we talked
about it and I think I want to do let me
go back to this. This
is this is going to be a fun one, I
think, because I really want to do PTO,
which personal time off. I I really
think this is this is something that
needs to be said. Every entrepreneur,
every side hustler that out there,
honestly, everybody that runs a company,
and this is if I think I I think I've
been I've like shared this over the
season. I have a company RB Consulting
has employees. I'm I was employee number
one. I have other
employees. Sadly enough, most of them
have my same last name. Uh I have
consultants now that are part of my
company that actually have my same last
name. But it's
because I gave birth. I didn't give
birth. I was part of the birth of people
that are also technicians and nerds much
as myself. And we run in the same
circles. Um, so this is an actual
company. So whether you are a side
hustle, but I think more importantly if
you are a company and even if you are
employed, especially if you're employed
and you're like trying to make bank or
set up a side hustle or something like
that, I think this PTO is going to be
something that's very important to you.
And so, uh, once
again, this is an episode I've been
drinking, uh,
non-caffeine. Uh the other side of that,
I've been doing a little tequila because
I learned and this is like this could be
another podcast as well. I'm a wine
person in general, red wines, dry wines.
Um Malbecks are probably my favorites.
Uh a good Cabernet Svenon with a steak.
I'm like I'm a food and wine person.
Lots of cheeses and wines. But if I'm
going to have like a heavy meal, uh even
if it's like a mahi mahi or uh salmon,
definitely steaks and beef, there's like
or barbecue, there's like I'm a wine
person, but I'm also because live in
Tennessee, love some whisies. I've like
worked my way through the whiskey trail.
Uh Nearest
Green, by far my favorite. They're rye.
their uh all of the
uh oh actually their cheaper whiskey is
better than their more expensive
whiskey. Uh no offense to JD Jack
Daniels is the same way. I'm not a huge
fan of Jack Daniels. I'm sorry I can't
say like people will come and cart me
away in Tennessee. Uh but their best
Gentleman Jack I would actually go with
straight up Jack Daniels before I go
with Gentleman Jack. Uh Dominics in
Memphis, one of the best whisies all
around. If they didn't get impacted by
the flooding, that's true. Uh but they
still got some good stuff out there.
There's a there's a lot of really good
uh if you're into whisies, I am. I also
have become uh I was I had a bad
experience as most people do with
tequila at an early age and got away
from it. And now I've become more
tequila curious, I guess, as they say,
is I have realized that it actually has
a lot of different flavors. And although
you may think otherwise as you watch the
episode that's about to occur, I'm
actually more about the flavors than I
am about like the alcohols themselves.
Uh, note to you kids, when you get
older, don't bother drinking until
you're like in your 30s and 40s because
your pallet needs to progress to the
point that you can actually appreciate
this stuff and are not just sucking down
useless stuff.
That's my like PSA right there. That's
the one PSA that developer will ever
have. Apologies for anything that I do
before we start this episode. And a
three, a two, and a one. Hello and
welcome back. We are continuing our
season. We're building better
businesses, but actually the podcast is
building better developers. The original
title of this was developer, but if you
ever ask one of your woman in the box,
one of those devices to play the
developer podcast, they have problems
with it. So that's why we also are
building better developers because that
one they will say and if you say that if
I were to say that right now and you had
one of those devices, it would actually
start playing the most recent episode.
Pretty cool stuff. That's technology
also. Cool stuff. I am Rob Broadhead. I
am one of the founders of developer
building better developers. Also a
founder of RB Consulting where let's
face it technology technology sprawl
it's exhausting if you are not in a a
technology world. If this is not
something that you do as your daily
bread basically I've been doing
technology for decades. My team has been
working in technology also for long
periods of time. This is what we do. We
eat it for breakfast. We know what's out
there and we help you because we sit
down with you. We un we like we want to
understand your business because
everybody is unique. Every business is
unique. We sit down, we craft a unique
recipe for success for you based on the
technology that is out there and we also
set it up so that you're prepared for
whatever is going to come 6 months, a
year, six years from now.
We use integration, simplification,
automation,
innovation, and just helping you build
the right team, the
right, you know, army to go to war with
for the technology you need for your
business. That is our secret sauce is we
understand yours and we find the best
way to use technology and leverage it
for whatever it is that you need. Good
things and bad things. Good thing is it
has been a day. This is one of those I'm
just going to get like really I'm going
to get real with you guys. You
listeners, me familia, you guys have
been here for a long time. You have seen
me through thick and thin. We have
talked to all kinds of different people
through interviews over the years. We
have covered all kinds of topics. Today
is one of those days where you get to
the end of the day and we're just
exhausted. If you're a developer, if you
are in business, if you are solving
problems, I think it can be hard to for
other people to understand how much
getting to the end of the day can just
have you ready to go have a drink, chill
out, watch the sunset, whatever it
happens to be. That's where we're at. At
this point, it is very late in the day,
and I went switched over to adult
beverages sooner probably than I should
have. Uh, so the good thing is is that I
do have the adult beverages that I have
this opportunity to vent that I have
Michael on the other end that is able to
like we can talk, we can chat, we can
talk about all it, share our experiences
are we could we haven't cried, but we
could have cried together about some of
this stuff. Uh, and that's that's a good
thing. The bad thing is is that I've
gotten to the end of the day and it's
just exhausting. A better thing is that
now Michael is going to go introduce
himself. the guy that I just like set
the table for. Go ahead and introduce
yourself and let us know what's going on
with you. Hey everyone, my name is
Michael Malashsh. I'm one of the
co-founders of Developer Building better
developers. I'm also the founder of a
company called Envision QA where we take
test-driven development and we apply
that to software development to help
small to mid-size companies, clinicians,
doctors, whoever look at the software
you're using, look at your office, look
at your company, and we make sure that
uh what you are using to try to run your
business works for your business. We
will do a full assessment of your
software. We will get into the
nitty-gritty. We will get down and dirty
with you and we will help you figure out
if at the end of the day what you're
paying for really is helping you,
hurting you, or if you need to pivot,
buy something else or build something
specific for your needs. That is where
we come in. Good thing, bad thing. Good
thing having a great time with Rob
tonight. We are way off the rails. So,
enjoy this podcast. Uh, bad thing is,
well, we are off the rails. Um, no. Um,
our house. I'll leave it at that. Back
to you.
We're gonna talk about This is so
timely. We are sometimes smarter than we
think with some of our topics. We're
going to talk about PTO. We're talk
about taking a little time, chilling
out, getting away from your work. the
the subject line or whatever is
basically like PTO is not just for
employees. That's sort of like the catch
the the hook that Michael threw out when
he said, "Hey, here's a topic." And I
agree. This is a really challenging
topic for me in particular because I
will preach it, but I don't do it. Now,
let me set the table a little bit. my
company and I' I had this a little bit
in the pre-show. I talked about this. In
my company, there is no such thing as
PTO. I mean, it is, but we don't track
it actually. If you need to take a day
off, you take a day off. You need to
take a half a day off, you take a half a
day off. Part of this goes to me, and I
just I get tired of red tape and the
accounting side of that stuff. Part of
it goes
to my team works. my team gets crap done
and so if they need to take a day off
for whatever reason, if they need to and
a lot of times honestly I have to push
them to take a week off or some you know
serious amount of time because their
days off are like you know births,
deaths, weddings, the things that you
have to take a day off for. They like it
is very rare actually. Okay.
Or video game releases. Yeah, we don't
do that. So, God bless her. Natalie said
when we were sitting down and putting
together the like holiday calendar for
RB Consulting, she said, "You need to
make sure that everybody automatically
gets their birthday off." And I said,
"WTF?" Nobody does that because I don't
even know my birthday half the times. I
There have been there have been years it
has been days after my birthday. I'm
like, "Oh, I just had a birthday.
And God bless her. She's right. We need
to do that kind of stuff. So there's
things like that that you should take a
day off. Now, as a business owner, I'm
going to throw another There's a good
thing, bad thing. So I was going to take
a day off this Friday, couple days from
now. And the person on the other end of
the internet that is the happens to be
the co-host of this because we're
working on a project. He was like, "Hey,
actually he was not the one that did
this, so I'm not going to throw him
under the bus, but it was like, hey, we
need to get together. We need to have an
offsite. We need to do some stuff. We
need to do like these things." Which
totally agree 100% need to get those
stuff done. This Friday that I was going
to take off probably was not the day was
the last day I wanted to do it. But when
I looked at my schedule ahead, I'm like,
"Yes, we need to do it on Friday." So, I
am I am preaching not to the choir. I am
preaching to the choir that is walking
out of the church right now
because I struggle to take PTO. I
struggle to take time off. In the last
five years, this is like confession time
right now. In the last 5 years, the time
that I have taken off where I was not
working during the
vacation, I think is like maybe twice in
five years. The most recent one was not
too long ago because my wife said, "You
will not take a laptop with you." No
matter how much I tried, she's like,
"You will not take a laptop with you. I
will throw it off the boat." And she
probably would have. And so I
took four days, five days. It ended up
being five whole days that I did not
touch my laptop. My laptop was crying
when I got back to it. It said, "Why do
you forget me? Where did you go?" No, it
didn't. It didn't give a squat because
laptops have no personality. They are
not people. So moral of that story is
you can take time off. Another bonus of
that is that I took one of these
employees that I was like, "Okay, I can
probably trust him." He knocked it out
of the park and ran the meetings.
Nothing blew up. I got back, still had a
business, still had employees. We were
still like making payroll and all of the
things that matter. And I say that
because as a side hustler, as a
entrepreneur, and sometimes even as an
employee, we do not take time off. We we
think way too much of ourselves. We have
to be here. We have to get this project
done. This will not gun get done without
us. And honestly, sometimes our a-hole
bosses will do that to us as well and
say, "I need you here." But you know
what? You need to set boundaries. You
need to realize that work is not the
rest of your life. And
honestly, taking a break, getting away
most often will actually end up
improving your productivity as opposed
to you working your butt off late at
night through the weekend. This is
something we've talked about before. You
need to know when to step away. But PTO
in itself, before I toss it over to
Michael, that's one of these things that
I think we underestimate it. And what I
will throw in there is that a three-day
weekend is not going to cut it because
we need time to decompress before we can
actually relax. If you take a three-day
weekend, Friday you're still freaking
out about all the stuff that didn't
happen on Friday. Saturday you're
worried about all the stuff that you
didn't get done on Friday and you're
thinking about all the stuff that should
happen on Sunday. Sunday, you're
thinking about, crap, I'm going to get
to work on Monday, and there's going to
be a tile pile of work. And Monday at
like 8:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m., you may
finally chill out for a minute and say,
"Wow, I just had a three-day weekend."
And then boom, you're back into the next
week. Take more time off. I will tell
you, I will go to the mat on this one.
years and years and years and years and
years ago I took because of how it felt
how it fell that year. I took a twow
weekek vacation at the end of the year
and then a couple years later I did it
again. When I have been able to take a
real two week
vacation even a week and be like I'm not
thinking about work those are so
refreshing recharging and I get back to
work just like crying almost that I want
to go back to work. That is a v the
vacation, the PTO that you need to take.
Do not get yourself in a situation.
Although there is a benefit and there's
a way that you can leverage this. If you
get in the point where you're like, I
have to spend my PTO because otherwise
I'm going to lose it. And I know a lot
of people that do this and they end up
taking three-day weekends like week
after week after week. They just do four
day work weeks to the end of the year so
they can burn through their
PTO. There is some that you can leverage
that. You can make that work, but that
is not going to work as far as like
sanity and recharging and stuff like
that. An actual rest and vacation. For
example, I'm going to take rest and
vacation. I'm going to take a sip of my
drink and I'm going to pass it over to
Michael. What are your thoughts on this?
Because I know both of us suck at this.
So, I'm going to start out with a horror
story. So, I'm going to start out with
one. So, after college, I had a couple
jobs before I landed my first developer
job. I had a couple teaching jobs where
life was actually pretty good, but then
I got into what I thought was what I
love to do, which honestly is. Uh, I
started working for this healthcare
company in Nashville.
And seven year or actually I I worked
there for about seven years.
And five years into the company, working
for the company, I took a week off, went
with my wife. She had a business
conference. I went with her to Vegas and
I'm out climbing a
mountain and get a phone call on the as
I'm hanging off this mountain that oh
the you know stuff's on fire. I'm
like what do you mean stuff's on fire?
The problem I had was I was the only
person that did what I did at the
company for seven years. They had I had
no backup.
When you, it doesn't matter what you do,
you need to be able to pull yourself out
of the job and have a
break. 6 months after that incident, I
quit that job. Now, did I learn my
lesson?
No. Um, we run into these situations in
almost any company we work at. We want
to be good at what we
do. We tend to position ourselves
depending upon where you're at or what
you're doing or where you're at in your
career. You position yourself to
be very reliable or basically they can't
eliminate you. Like you
are they have to have you. You they have
to irreplaceable is the word. That's the
word. um you're irreplaceable and
unfortunately that's a bad thing for
those of us that want to start companies
and build businesses. You need to build
the business. You need to build things
in a such a way where you can remove
yourself. You are not the lynchpin that
runs the company. The company needs to
run itself. You help facilitate the
company. You help facilitate the growth
of the company. But the company should
not live, die or breathe on your
existence. That should never happen. You
need to eliminate yourself as the
blocker of your business
succeeding. Tim Ferrris had a great
statement of this when he talked about
trying to sell his Brainquit company
where he could not extract himself. He
had to figure out how to eliminate
himself from the company. If he were to
leave, how could he sell the
company? You need to think in terms of
that wherever you are. Be you are an
employee, you are a business owner, you
are a developer, you are an an
entrepreneur, we need we we love what we
do, but at the end of the
day, we need to figure out how to
reset. Rob knows this.
This is where this topic came from. I am
horrible at this. Absolutely
horrible. I will take PTO to work on
other
things. We have to pay bills. We have
obligations. We have things we there are
things that always stack up. There are
always something that needs to be done.
At the end of the day, what are you
doing to be a better person, a better
developer, a better business owner, and
a better like family man, husband,
whoever. But we need to figure out what
we
want.
And it's not
work. I talked about last episode. I
took a stroll in the yard the other day
and just like what am I doing, you know?
What am I working for? Why why am I
doing what I'm doing?
And it's like, oh, trees, yard, land,
birds, guineies that freaking do
whatever the hell they want. Chickens
that get eaten by dogs or coyotes, fish,
turtles.
Bottom line
is we have one
life. We stress about way too much crap
we don't care about or really we have no
control
over. Take the time. Take the PTO. Take
the break. You owe it to yourself to
reset or we're going to burn out. We're
going to fail. We're going to get into
those cycles where because we're not
taking those pauses. We're going to get
into those feedback loops where we are
doing the same thing again and again and
again which is by definition insanity.
You need to do different things over
time. So please, if you get anything
from this episode is PTO, vacation time,
breaks,
pause, take a step back from what you're
doing every
day. And it could be as simple as turn
focus mode, like turn off your phones,
turn off the video games, turn off the
TV, do something different that helps
you reset, helps you relax, and helps
you get back to the status quo. Because
at the end of the day, if you find
yourself like, I'm doing this, I'm doing
this, I'm doing this, I'm doing it. It's
like, oh, I'm busy, busy, busy. No, you
do not want to be busy at work. You want
to be productive. If you are not being
productive in anything you're doing,
you're doing it wrong. Take a step back,
reset. What is it that you need to be
doing? Do that or do nothing. Take a
pause. Call your boss and say, "Hey, I
need a break. I need a mental break. I
need a sick day. Something."
If you find yourself
cycling, step back, take a break,
pause. You know, that's where this whole
idea of the PTO, taking a break, came
from. We, especially as entrepreneurs,
as owners, as you know, entrep you know,
business owners, we run businesses. We
are the business or at least we think we
are the business. And if the business,
if we aren't there, the business will
fail.
That happens more times than you think
in anything that we do, not just running
a
business. Pause. Take a break. What is
important to you in your life? And if
you're not doing it, take a few days
off. Find it again. If you don't, you
are missing out or you're burning out to
the point that you are going to crash
and burn. and crash and burn is not
where you want to be. That that is a
sign that you need to walk it back.
Thoughts, Rob? I we have talked about
burnout being devastating to us because
we are
all go go go kind of people. I I'm going
to give you some some thoughts on what I
have found has worked for me. May or may
not work for
you. And actually, I've gotten away from
it and I've realized how much it does
work for
me. Go back, flashback sometime in the
past. I honestly don't even remember
when I last was actually able to do
this. I would work. I would basically
get up about 6:00 a.m. in the morning
and start work because I would do a lot
of like pre-work stuff. So, I had about
an hour to like chill and get started on
my day. And about 7
o'clockish I would start work and then I
would work until about 11 and start
about 700 7:30 and work about 11 11:30.
So I get it four hours in focus on
usually one or two
projects and honestly we've talked a lot
about like the 15 minutes a day kind of
stuff. Usually my first hour would be
four 15 minute a day things that I
wanted to make progress on. So I'd be
like made progress on A B C D. So, I
would start my day by 8:30 in the
morning. Usually, I had like progress on
the things I really want to progress on
and then I was into a project, get to
about 11:30, and I would break for lunch
and I would have something to eat. I may
make myself a meal. I may get a meal,
whatever. I may go for a walk for a
while. I would read for a little bit or
something like that. I may, you know,
something to chill. and then about 1
1:30 get back to work. I would take a
nice long lunch break, we'll call it.
And then from 1:30, I'd work till about
5 or 5:30. Again, usually that was like
my primary whatever my primary job was.
I'd spend a good four hours, like solid
hours cranking on that, maybe two
projects. A lot of times it was just
one. Get to the end of the day, 5 5:30,
whatever it was. maybe six depending on
how my day
went. Done. I was free to do whatever I
wanted the rest of the evening. Could go
do whatever. Get to sleep at a decent
hour, get up next morning, start it
again, do it all over
again. That is actually for me that was
a really good rhythm. Worked out well.
Your rhythm rhythm may be a little bit
different, but I'm going to guess that
the blocks of time that I had in there
are going to be roughly the same. You
may be someone that needs four blocks of
two hours, one block of eight. I don't
know. I don't know anybody that knows
one block of eight. Most people are like
four blocks of two, maybe two blocks of
four, something like that. Because it
goes back to the whole pomodoro and some
of those things. There's like only a
certain amount of time that we can
really focus on something before we need
to step away from it. It becomes
actually more productive to step away
and stop than it does to continue
beating your head against whatever that
problem is. The my recent schedule is I
get up at and I'm going by 6:00 a.m. I
skip lunch. I don't do anything else but
work until 6:00 or 7:00
p.m. depending on the day. Sometimes I
leave a little early. If I if I leave
early, I feel guilty the whole time that
I didn't get work done. And if I work
late, then I feel better. But then I
work until I go to sleep. And that's a
bad and that is a good example of what
not to do.
Exactly. People around me, people that
know me will tell you that is not the
pleasant version of Rob. The one that I
was before is what people want me to be.
And honestly, it's what I want me to be.
Because funny
enough, I felt at the end of the day
when I was doing that like 424 kind of,
you know, four hours of work, two hours
of break, four hours of work. When I did
that schedule, I got to the end of the
day and regardless of what I did, I
always felt more productive than I do
right now. Now, part of it is I have
overloaded my schedule. So, that is
something you need to take care of.
However, PTO, taking time off, realizing
that just working at whatever it is is
not always the best way to approach it
is where to go. What is the challenge
you want to give our listeners for
today?
I'm glad you reminded me because I
probably would have just like carried on
and not done the challenge. Here's a
challenge. This
is this is a challenge that we've
actually talked about a
lot, but I think it is
worth wherever you are at I think this
is a challenge is really worthwhile.
I've I've gone back to this recently and
it was as long as I've been doing this,
as much as I know a lot of my strengths
and weaknesses and where I went
to, this is actually was a very valuable
challenge for me uh exercise for me and
so I hope it is for you as
well. The challenge is to sit down and
think about what is your most productive
schedule. I know this is getting a
little bit this drifting off of PTO, but
is like, are you a morning person? Are
you a night person? Are you a middle of
the day person? Are you a split your day
person? Like for myself, morning,
afternoon, I need the evening needs to
be nothing but whatever the heck I want
to do, whether I want to play games or I
want to go out, whether I want to sleep,
whatever it is.
One of my employees I
know is very much a like not early
morning maybe like a nineto one person
and then like a nineto one person big
break so midm morning like normal work
hours for people and then like night out
hours I've got another employee best
work hours are like probably like 9 or
10 p.m. until like 5 6 a.m. just like
shut out the world and just go do some
stuff. So, while this is not related to
PTO, that's really the challenge. The
side note, PTO is when was the LA, this
is just really a question. It's an easy
one. When was the last time you took
more than four days off in a row without
your technology?
And isn't it time that you do it
now? That is where we at. Another thing,
it is time right now for you to send us
an email at
[email protected]. I was like last
episode, if you've been following along,
Michael actually took over on the
YouTube side, so you can go check that
out. He's going to do it again today. He
doesn't know it, but he's going to
because I thought he did a great job. Go
for it out at
[email protected], Twitter or
xdeveloper. We're on Facebook and
LinkedIn at developer. And please follow
us, send comments, wherever podcasts
are. Let us know what you think and
please reach out. We will follow or
reach out to you as soon as you send us
something or whenever we see your
comments. That is a perfect example of
PTO. I'm actually gonna go like log that
I did whatever that was 30 seconds of
PTO on my developer time
card because that's what you need to do
is you need to learn how to
expand. I will wrap this one up because
Michael did such a great job so
succinctly. I just want to let you guys
know we do appreciate you. Thank you for
hanging out with us. Please take some
time off. protect your sanity because
that is like the mental stuff is so much
a part of our work. Go out there and
have yourself a great day, a great week
and we will talk to you next time.
All right, bonus mature.
Wow, we get a little whatever little
wine in you and suddenly you're like
taking off. I'm gonna get bottle of wine
per episode and you're going to be like,
"Dude, I am done. I got it all done. I
don't even have to say a word.
Um,
PTO, you
know, if you find
yourself thinking about work or
overstressing, like thinking on a topic,
like overthinking something, when you're
not when when you're not on the clock,
if you're constantly in like connected
or in I forget the freaking term, but
when you're plugged in, if you're always
plugged in,
you're doing something wrong.
Unplug and be careful with what you do
when you are unplugged. There are
triggers you can still do when you're
unplugged that still plugs you in. It's
like, okay, my day job, I do Java all
day. Okay, so in my off time, oh, I'm
reading Java novels or books on Java or
watching tuto. You're still plugged in.
Pick time and periods where you are not
doing anything related to your day job,
your side
hustle, anything related to
work. Read a
book, play a
game, but be
careful. Make sure whatever it is you're
doing, it is relaxing. It is helping to
reduce the
endorphins from the stress of the
job. Recently, I found out that one of
my favorite
games, Darkest Dungeon, was actually
causing more anxiety off of my day job.
Even though I love the
game, it was anxiety inducing. Rob's
laughing, but it's true. You can pick
something to
do that you think is fun, but is
actually a trigger for what you are
still like what you're
living. So, be careful about that. I've
had to take days where I don't play
video games at all. I love video games,
but sometimes you have to stop because
the games you're playing are still
touching on the triggers that your day
job and triggers. Basically, I if
something triggers anxiety, stop it.
Take a break. Take a PTO day. Do
something else
unrelated. It will help. Now, like I
said, video games are my thing. They're
my go-to. I love playing Diablo. I love
playing um Path of Exile 2. But like
Darkest
Dungeon, oh my god, I spin that game up
after a bad day. It's like, oh, this is
fun. Like five hours later, I'm still
playing it. I'm like, my anxiety level
has not dropped. My relaxation level is
not down here. It is like way beyond
even where I left work because the game
is so
challenging. What I'm doing may be fun,
but it is still pushing that anxiety,
pushing that stress
beyond what you did for your day job.
So, you have to find that balance. You
have to figure out what you do during
the day and what you do in your personal
time. Do they balance? If they don't
balance, you need to step back and
figure out what can I do differently in
my off
hours besides unre
recre recreational drugs uh
to detract from your day job. Wow, we
just became a an NC17 podcast.
Well, I mean, we're trying, so we're
already there. Uh, let's see if I can
get Oh, it doesn't pick that up. Oh,
that's cool. There. There you go. So,
uh, back to you. I'm already off the
rails. Yeah. So, I have moved. This is
one of the things is the phone is like
one of those things job-wise. I was
hitting stuff up too much and so I went
to black and white mode, which is what I
just showed you. Like the iPhone will do
that. I've talked before there's a
there's a book called Digital I think
it's called Digital Detox and it's a
40-day
uh detox of digital, which is insanely
difficult if you're like me and you live
in the digital world that you're on
laptops all the time and stuff like
that.
However, very useful.
Um there's so much that Michael talked
about that that is important. Okay, I
will share my son actually I have two
sons that do this but one in particular
his favorite game is something called uh
OSU or Geometry Dash. Both of those or
the impossible game which is goes way
back but these are his g they are the
speeduns. Um they're rhythm games like
you just got to like know what the
rhythm is. He will yell and scream and
cuss at that game. And I haven't dealt
with him in a while about this, but I
would tell him it's like just shut the
game off. If it makes you that crazy,
play Animal Planet or something like
that. Like just Mario your way through
this. I don't know what it is. Find
something that is chill.
I personally gamewise love games that
are I love a game where I can have a
drink. I can shoot stuff and blow a
bunch of crap up. So, not beer.
Actually, what I said not beer pong. No,
not beer paw. I love like a good
Fallout. I love Skyrim because I can go
drinking, shooting ma nasty beasties,
kill them all, and then go like, I don't
know, fish for a little while afterwards
or just wander through a trail and go
find the top of a
mountain. The thing about all of this is
what regenerates you.
This is very near and dear to my heart
because I've just been through a season
where I realized that some stuff that I
thought that gave me energy that
regenerated me that just because of what
they were, they were a positive, but
they were actually a drain. They were a
negative.
And depending on who you are and what
your personality type is, I will give
you a an example for you to work with.
If you are an
introvert, go sit in a
crowd
for 15 minutes. Crowd like people bump
it up on you. What do you feel like
after those 15 minutes? That is what
draining is because that's who you are.
You're an introvert. You don't do
crowds. They drain you. If you're an
extrovert, go sit by
yourself for 15 minutes. No interaction
with other
people. How do you feel? That is what
draining is. Now it becomes challenging
because our lives are complex. We have
work, we have personal relationships, we
have romantic relationships, we have
familial relationships, we have all this
stuff.
But some of those things drain us and
some of those things will energize us.
The whole PTO thing is figure out what
energizes
you. Be honest with
yourself and go chase what energizes
you. Now, I get that some people have
really weird things or uncommon things
that energize them. Some people are,
we'll call it freaky or whatever. It may
be that you're energized by watching
reruns of All in the Family or that you
are um you love classic Britcoms or that
you really enjoy walking through a
forest or
there's so many things out
there and or maybe sitting on a podcast.
I don't know what it is. Find out what
energizes you. When you're thinking
about
PTO, make sure that when you take that
time off, that part of that time off is
doing the things that energize you. I
started this way back talking about my
two week period of time off that I took
at the end of the year many years ago.
And I was like, that was so awesome. The
reason it was awesome is because during
that time period, I listened to
Christmas. It was during the end of the
year, Christmas time. I listened to
Christmas music like 24/7. I played
games, probably six to eight hours of
games a day, probably Oblivion, like
RPG, open world RPGs that just allow me
to just detach from everything else.
And then I spent some time, as you will
see now, as you know, I had some time
like having a little cheese, a little
crackers, maybe drinking a glass of
wine, talking with my kids and my wife
at the time. That stuff energizes me. A
little bit of personal interaction, a
good mix because I'm I'm not an
extrovert. I'm not fully an introvert.
I'm somewhere I'm an ambbervert. I'm
somewhere in there. I like some people
time. I like some n I like some me time.
gaming like those kind there's a lot of
this stuff like figure out which one you
like. So gaming like online games not my
thing. Mind sweeper not my thing.
There's like there's certain things
figure out like reading if you like to
read figure out what kind of books
energize you and which ones drain you.
Like Michael said it may be that you
really like your work. you love to read
books on Java or Pearl or Python or
whatever the heck it is. And wow, I dang
the ding the heck out of that class. Um,
but it also may be that you enjoy sci-fi
or fantasy or trash romance or travel or
you name it.
Make sure that part of your schedule
during your PTO is including those kinds
of things. That is what will actually
recharge you and make that PTO valuable
enough that the next time you have an
opportunity to do so, you're going to
embrace it. Now, we've gone way long. It
is. And with that, I want to end this
one with send us a message
reach us on X,
Facebook,
developer.com, anywhere these podcasts,
YouTube are located. Send us a message.
We don't mind any messages you send us.
I may hate spam or people trying to sell
us stuff, but hey, we will respond
regardless. It may be like buzz off, but
hey, let us know. send us a message and
have a great time and take a break.
He is burning through all my PTO time by
now taking over this part, but that's
okay. As always, go out there and have
yourself a great day, a great week, a
great time
off. Chill out, enjoy life, because
there's more to it than just this.
Building better developers is about
building better you, not just your
technology skills. Have a good one. Talk
to you later. As a kid say, peace out.
[Music]