Detailed Notes
Burnout doesn’t always look like exhaustion. For many developers and technical leaders, it shows up as distraction, overthinking, and the feeling that you’re busy but not making real progress.
In this episode of Building Better Developers, we explore how regaining clarity at work helps developers, tech leads, and engineering managers avoid burnout and make better decisions. The conversation focuses on practical ways to reduce mental overload through better habits, self-trust, strong peer relationships, and intentional use of coaching and AI tools.
We discuss why clarity is often lost gradually, how distractions compound burnout, and why relying solely on weekends or vacations rarely fixes the problem. You’ll also hear how allies, coaching, and hybrid support approaches can help you step out of your own head and move forward with confidence.
If you’re feeling stuck, scattered, or mentally drained, this episode offers a grounded, realistic perspective on regaining clarity at work—without adding more noise.
Key Takeaways: • Why distraction is often the first sign of burnout • How daily habits support long-term clarity and focus • When trusting yourself works better than seeking more input • The value of allies and peer support beyond your manager • How coaching and AI tools can complement each other
About Andrew Hinkelman Andrew Hinkelman is a certified executive coach and former CTO who works with tech founders, CTOs, and engineering leaders to strengthen their leadership and people skills.
With over 25 years of corporate experience, including 8 years as a Chief Technology Officer, Andrew brings firsthand insight into the challenges technical leaders face as they move from hands-on execution to leading teams and organizations.
After experiencing burnout in his own leadership journey, Andrew shifted his focus from fixing problems himself to empowering others to succeed. Today, he helps leaders stay strategic, build trust, and develop resilient teams.
Follow Andrew • https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewhinkelman/ • https://www.instagram.com/andrewhinkelman/
Follow Develpreneur • [email protected] • https://develpreneur.com/ • https://www.youtube.com/@develpreneur • https://facebook.com/Develpreneur • https://x.com/develpreneur • https://www.linkedin.com/company/develpreneur/
Transcript Text
Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season building better developers, developing our podcast, and this is a season about moving forward, getting unstuck, getting that forward momentum, the things that you want to do when you're not. when you're stuck in a rut, you're like, I don't know why I keep doing these same things and I just I'm that hamster in the wheel and I'm working my butt off and it's not getting me anywhere. This is the season we're going to talk about those things. And we are talking with coach this time and we will continue in this uh episode to talk with Andrew Hankleman. U we'll give you links in case you spell his name with a silent Q and u we'll allow you to do that so that you can connect with him because he has a great offer. Uh if you haven't listened to part one, pause right here, go back, listen to part one because we're going to pick up right where we left off uh from part one. Uh I probably should introduce myself because I'm way behind on all of that kind of stuff. My name is Rob Broadhead. I'm one of the founders in developing. We're also the founder of RV Consulting where we don't allow you to sit around. We just give you the spoilers right away. No, actually what we do is we help you leverage technology to create a unique custom solution for your business. So, you got a road map for success. Good thing, bad thing. Uh, good thing is I am settling into my new digs. I'm like having a good old time. I'm adjust adjusting to a uh time change and all that kind of good stuff. The bad thing is is I've managed somewhere along the way to like I don't know if it's a bad thing. I've shifted my day to start and end later than it used to. uh which is not horribly bad in general, but it's just one of those it's now it's like I have like I'm having to mentally adjust to this a little bit more where I'm like, you know, I get to noon and it's not as much of my day has existed as noon as it did just even a month or two ago. So, it's not a rough good or bad, but it is what it is. Something that is always a little bit good and a little bit bad is my co-host. So, go ahead and introduce yourself, Michael. >> Hey everyone, my name is Michael Malash. one of the co-founders of DO for nerve building better developers. Also the founder of Envision QA where we design and test software that fits your workflow. That way you can stop fighting your tools and start growing your business. Good things and bad things. Uh good things like this season forward uh motion getting things rolling. Uh been working on some new projects getting out networking. I've got some new proposals kind of going around. So really starting to get this year off on the right foot. Uh bad thing I'm still unfortunately dragging a little bit from last year's carrying over a little bit and uh part of that was oops I forgot to do uh December's financing stuff. So I'm rushing real quick to get all that done for tax season. Uh so that's kind of my bad. But a lot of it is good. It's all forward motion getting things done. Yes, that was the like welcome to the new year when all of this stuff like you got to file this, file this, file this, file this, file this, file this. I'm like ah that's right. I got to do all those. Luckily, it's not too complicated. I kept stuff that I kept up to date with my stuff for the most part. There just a few little things, but it's still it's accounting stuff. Not my favorite thing to do. My favorite thing to do is have these conversations and these interviews. So, let's dive right in. I've already told you what's coming. So, let's get back to our conversation right where we picked it up with where right where we dropped it off with Andrew. Yeah. People talk about, you know, they be like, "Hey, stay in your lane." And stuff like that. Usually is more of a a negative, but it's definitely a positive as well. This goes back, I think, like you said earlier about like the things that we do best sometimes are the ones that we're most like to stick with. But that's also where we're happier, we're healthier, and if we're trying to do if you're trying to juggle too many, you know, balls in the air, then you're going to end up, you know, suffering with that. And that's uh and it gosh, that swings back around even to the whole like make sure you're doing the thing. You know, there's a lot of there are gosh, today especially, there's so many distractions out there, whether it's, you know, you can get lost in an email, you can get lost in some sort of chat thread, you can you can get lost in a an AI thing, you can get there's so many things that are out there and it's it's really, you know, that's part of it is finding that uh that clarity. So actually before we we shift a little bit um I do want to like I guess wrap that one up say what is the how do you walk in walk with somebody as far as like getting their clarity. Is there like a certain is there an exercise or like we always talk about like finding your why? Is there something that you're you sort of say like hey let's start with this so we figure out where do you want to go with your coaching? >> Yeah there's a you know I have a program it's there's the mechanics to it. We meet every other week usually for six months and then for a month, you know, we'll meet monthly after that just to kind of have some accountability and stuff. And I mentioned emotional intelligence. It's a huge pillar of of what we'll work on. And I mentioned this sort of starting off with 360, making sure there's feedback, but in between the real work is is how am I doing on the new actions, the new things I'm committing to and where am I falling down and what's hard about it? And along the way, we're sort of uncovering um more and more of what uh someone needs to kind of address. So, so just to make it super concrete, you know, most people that I talk to are, you know, somewhere maybe not fully burned out, but they're somewhere in there. They're in the spectrum of like approaching being pretty burned out. people are busy, distracted, they're pretty fried in general. Um, and overall, most people are pretty lonely, too. Like, they don't they don't necessarily like there's a lot of isolation, especially with people working remotely. Um, so one of the things, one of the very specific exercises that I do with people is I have them write out all the things that make them strong, feel good, feel powerful, all of those kinds of things. So I call it the causes and conditions, right? Point being, Rob, that that like for you to have a great day tomorrow, there's certain things that you're probably going to do today, right? Maybe you're going to work out. Maybe you're going to spend some downtime reading. Make sure you get enough sleep. All of those things, you sort of get to a point where you need the self-discipline to honor those, right? You can't go into every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday depleted. >> You know, a weekend is not going to solve your burnout. You got to like start to have some specific habits that are good for you um and build those in and have some discipline around them. So, that's just an example of sort of like, you know, the kinds of things that we might work on in the middle of a coaching engagement. Not sure if I answered your question. >> Yeah. Yeah, that was a good answer. And I think that's it's that's the problem with so many things. We we joke about that a lot in like consulting calls and stuff like that when I say like what's a good you know what's a ideal c customer or something like that. It's like, well, that depends. You know, it's the same kind of thing. It's like it's it's very personal. And so, it's hard to give a like, you know, bop bop bop. Here's your template. Here's like, you know, item one, two, three. This is the way it always works because it doesn't there's, you know, everybody's unique and you have to you have to find that uniqueness before you even begin. Um I mentioned earlier and this is like now it's one of those things I think everybody's curious about in various areas is like where do you see do you see AI impacting coaching because there's like you know there's certain areas that people are like oh this is totally different and and honestly in coaching area I've heard of some people are like oh I had a chat with you know an AI thing and like now I'm ready and I'm off and going and it solved all my problems and stuff like that. So, how do you see or are there like I guess part of it is not only where you see it going, but it's like has it already changed maybe some of the discussions as you're bringing new people on? >> Uh, it has it's changed a lot in the coaching industry. Um, you know, there are a lot of coaches that are developing uh their own agents or their own versions of a of a chat um that that has all of their sort of methodologies and all that kind of stuff. Um, so you know the way that I look at it is the thing that works well for you is going to be the thing you choose. So, like if Michael can fire up Gemini or Claude or whatever his choice is and say, "Talk to me like a highly experienced executive coach that's very skilled at helping technical founders move from 5 million to 10 million and you know like a incredibly specific prompt. She may get really, really good results and he may take those very seriously and use them. You might not, Rob. So, you might you might kind of look at that as like, h, it's just some more noise. I want to talk to someone. I want to like talk to someone who's gonna read my body language and met someone who's been where I've been and like know can help me see around corners and and be a a a part maybe a thought partner or whatever. So my so my point really is I think people are going to select what they want and and that's the way that it's going to go. I don't I don't think that coaching is going to go away and be replaced by AI in the next five or 10 years, but I think some people are going to get really valuable input and coaching. They're going to get valuable coaching out of an AI tool for sure. Yeah. And it's having massive impact already in a lot of learning platforms, too. So are you seeing sort of a I guess a hybrid approach to it where people are getting some you know some benefit out of some of those tools but also using a you know sort of like the best like I said a best of breed or a hybrid kind of approach where you've got a a real coach a live coach and then also could utilize some of those tools to help you know continue to push you forward. >> For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um it can be hybrid, it can be all of one, all of the other. I mean, frankly, a lot of the very senior people that I talk to just want a human. But I could see, you know, as you know, generations grow up with, you know, the normaly of just walking around with, you know, Gemini talking to them that they're going to that'll be their way to go and that it'll be impactful for them. Um but yeah and sometimes you know the leave it's a leave behind right so if I can leave a version of me behind or I can give you you know here's three or four prompts you let's say it's a it's early Tuesday morning you have a big meeting and you just want you just want a little bit of a run through little roleplaying you might not reach me so here here are a couple really good prompts you could use and and you you might get close. So following up on that, so like if you are working with a coach or working with you, but your coach isn't available. Yes, there are tools out there. You have chat bots, things of that. What are kind of like some disciplines or some strategies that you you work with your customers to do when they can't reach you, but they need a coach or they they're struggling with something to kind of work through their problems when there's no immediate help available. Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, so one of the things that I do is is I let people know like for the most part I am available. So, you know, I I realize I just gave you that example where I'm not, but for the most part, I make sure people know they can text me and everything. So, if you have a surprise meeting coming up tomorrow afternoon, then, you know, I'm happy to happy to get together with you. But um in some ways people don't need more inputs. So I'm going to give you a non-answer Michael and and that is that that you are automatically in a knee-jerk way going to think like I need to go read this article or digest this book really quick or get this audible download whatever you know this thing that's out there. Honestly, like 80% of the time, it's not what you need. You need to like sit down, quiet your mind a little bit, and trust yourself cuz you probably already know how to deal with that conflict, deal with that tough manager. There's there are things you already know that um and and really trusting yourself in those kinds of situations is probably more effective than watching another YouTube video. >> That makes sense. And to kind of follow up on I I like your answer and and I kind of am following where you're going with this, but there are times where like you have a large me or a project or something and you you are stuck in your mind. Uh kind of getting back to that kind of burnout kind of mentality where you're stuck, you're thinking, you're overthinking it. You're you're like stressing it. And it helps to talk to people sometimes, but like I said, like you said, you try to be available, but if you're not, honestly, like YouTube videos, things like that, that actually is more of a stressor to me. It's like those don't really help because you you need to talk it through. Chat bots kind of help, but they can also be hurtful because they're always positive reinforcements, and that's not necessarily always what you want in those situations. What is your recommendation? you know, and yes, you can meditate, but how what are some tips that you could offer to help someone quiet their mind, kind of ease back down and get to a calm till they could talk to someone or maybe get through their current crisis. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, the main remedy for overthinking is is usually exercise. So if you can get outside, do something physical, burn off some of that energy, most times that's the the best solution when you're stuck in those loops and you're overthinking. Um, but the other way I want to answer this is that um, I like to talk about allies. So, in a corporate environment, not your manager, but maybe one of your manager's peers or the person that kind of gets you and you get them and you've had some experiences together and they're trusted. Maybe it's a me, maybe it's an informal mentor, but someone who who you can talk to. Maybe it's peers. Hopefully, you've been building strong relationships sideways. um in a business, if you're in a startup, if you're a founder, for sure you're involved in groups, networking groups, whatever whatever that is, you know, other business um people and and I personally have found that those people are amazing to talk to when and always available, like super generous to talk to me anytime I'm I need something to work through. So, I think it's get out of your head, get outside, work out, and who are your allies around you? And and you, you know, if you don't feel like you have allies in your in your in your company or where you work, it's it's time to start identifying those people and and putting a little effort in. >> Yeah. You got to cultivate those relationships so that you've got them when you need them. >> Yeah. And and and beyond your manager, right? Like I think what happens when people are in the first 10 years of their career, they think their manager is everything, right? And and you need to kind of you need to expand beyond that. >> Yeah. I think that's been so I know personally those have been some of the best u you know soundboard relationships have been those that were in completely different department or something like you said sort of the peers that are you know got they're going to have a different point of view and it's uh those are almost always going to be invaluable and nothing else will help you uh get out of a rut you know even if you end up falling back into it at least for a little bit it gives you a way to explore elsewhere >> you have to be a little vulnerable right like you got to kind of open up a little >> you know I mean a lot of us are very private it very tight and like you know people people aren't going to you know bond with you and you're not going to form great relationships if everything's transactional. >> Yeah. Yeah. You got to go have lunch with them beforehand or something like that. You know, do something that's a little that's not like in the heat of fire. >> Yeah. What is a tip that you would offer those that u might not be too extrovert or you know network you know they may be like since we all work a lot of people work from home they don't get out they don't talk to people a lot they don't network what are some advices to these people to kind of help them break out of their shell to help expand their um peers their network so that they kind of have that safety so that they can grow with uh not just within themselves but within their communities. >> Yeah. I I try to make that as simple as possible and I mentioned working with a lot of engineers and I feel like you're you're most engineers are incredibly curious. I mean I that's that's my experience throughout my my whole life. And and so just by getting curious about something, even if you have to kind of invent it a little bit, like, you know, I'm curious about this, I want to learn more, asking questions is is kind of your pathway there. I think if you if you're a little nervous about reaching out or being in meetups or, you know, going to going to things, just kind of try to try to, you know, get curious about about the person across from you, about the event, about what people doing are doing and and kind of takes the pressure off of you, right? Most people want to talk about the things they do and what they're into and all that. So, I know it sounds simple, but it can be a powerful tactic. So, now we have, as often happens, we have flown through our our time together and you've got a a lot of great points you've made, a lot of uh great ideas that you've tossed out there. So, as the the audience is listening in, what are some of the best ways they would get a hold of you if they're like, "Hey, I want to explore this coaching thing a little bit more." >> Yeah, a great way to find me is just on LinkedIn. So, Andrew Hinkleman, uh, LinkedIn. I don't think there's too many of Andrew Hlelman's out there. So, um, if you get the spelling right, you'll find me. Um, connect with me. Send me a connection request. I'll I'll accept it. And uh underneath my name on my LinkedIn page is a link to say something like book a discovery call. So I mentioned doing you know I'll just do a free coaching session, right? So we just get on if you're curious about coaching um you know and there's something specific you want to work on, we'll we'll take an hour and you'll get a feel for it. It's it's not it's not sales. It's not something I charge people for, you know, it's really just to kind of, you know, give people the experience of um what it's like. >> Excellent. And we'll make sure we have links for that to the correct Andrew Engleman in case somebody spells it with a silent Q or something like that. Make sure we get those links in there. Sometimes spelling can be a little challenging. Thanks so much for your time for for hanging out with us and putting up with some of our questions as we've we've wandered around this field. But uh hopefully everybody has gotten out something out of us. It feels a little more uh especially in this, you know, we're looking at being ways to move forward and getting ourselves unstuck. I would say definitely a coach is one of those people. It's sometimes you've got to get your got to get your head up and step out and get some a second set of eyes on your situation. So we will uh we will wrap this one up. We will be back back next episode. We will continue with a fresh conversation. Uh for now, go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. >> And so now for our >> for our uh video uh audience here, those people that are seeing our bright and smiling faces, what would be like a bonus tip? What would be I think with this one is like especially is there a is there like a good uh we'll say like a signal or red flag or something like that when you're you're sitting there that you're like that's like hey maybe it's time to go reach out to a coach particularly I mean there's always the like you know something horrible has happened and now I've got to do it but something if they're if somebody's sort of going down that road like you know as you mentioned like some line of uh working towards burnout or something like that is there like a a good red flag that somebody is experiencing where it'd be like hey this is a good time for you to go start exploring coaches. >> Yeah. Um this is especially good I think for engineers which is patterns right? So identifying the patterns, you know, we're we're kind of trained, we're trained to do that in our work, but if you think about it in terms of yourself and your results and the things you want, the things you don't want, what is what are the patterns that I'm seeing? I'm I'm coming into the week full of excitement and by Wednesday, I'm depleted and and burnt and things aren't happening. Okay. Well, now let's kind of zero in here a little bit. So try, you know, it's self-awareness is really what I'm talking about. But look for look for patterns and kind of treat your analysis and engineering work like put the put the spotlight on yourself a bit, right? And and like see if you can kind of find like what's moving what in which direction. >> Yeah, I think that's good. That's a very uh analytical engineering approach that we can all sort of apply to ourselves. And it's some way it goes back to things like you mentioned earlier about people that journal and and do some of those things where they're looking for they're they're in that self-discovery mode. They're looking for ways to learn and to get better. And those are some of the things that sometimes you want to make sure you taking examining the path that you've done. you know, do a little retrospective or review and see how your week went, your month went, and see if there's some ways that, you know, maybe there's some things that you you don't know why, but it keeps happening. And so, now is a good time to get somebody to get that second set of eyes on it and help somebody coach you through it. Now, once again, I do want to thank you so much for your time and for for hanging out with us. Uh hopefully, you will have some sunny days ahead to offset some of the the clouds and some of those kinds of things because yes, that is that is what the Seattle area is known for apparently. So, It's just not enough not enough sunlight out there. >> Yeah. We got a few more months. It'll it'll it'll be here. >> Yep. Yeah. Just like just, you know, get your sun lamp for a little bit and you'll be good. You just like work your way through it. Or just plan a couple of good south trips south and you'll be you'll be set to go. I think Mexico will be be sunny enough for you. So >> yeah, that it usually does the trick for a little while, which seems to wear off. So I got to figure out how to keep going back, but >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. You got to find a good like coaching session back there that you're period like I'm sorry this has got to be face to face. We're going to have to come back in, you know. >> That's right. >> Maybe we'll batch them up. Something like that. So San Diego. Yeah. >> There you go. That's not a bad place either. You just sort of like toodle down the coast there and you are you're set to go. You know, maybe there's a somebody at this at the San Diego zoo. There's some people there that need some help or something like that. So exactly like sorry I got to go. Got to do it in person. >> Uh thank you very much for your time. We will uh this will come out in I don't know about a month or uh probably about almost two months now towards the end of February by the time we get this thing out. Uh we will send you links and and all of that kind of good stuff as we get closer to it. Uh if there's anything I think we've both connected to you on LinkedIn. >> Good. >> Um so if there's anything we can do between now and then, let us know. If there's any way we can help, any references or anything like that, we would be happy to do so. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm right back at you if if I can help support you guys in any way. Um, you know, like I said, I'm always happy to talk to someone, you know, for a while if even if it's a small thing or, you know, someone just needs a different perspective. So, yeah, really appreciate you guys having me. Um, and look forward to staying connected. >> Sounds good. Thanks a lot. We'll give you a few minutes to go uh head off to your next meeting. Have a have a good one. Have a good rest of your day. >> All right. You too. Thanks, guys. Bye. Thank you. Bye. Bye.
Transcript Segments
Well, hello and welcome back. We are
continuing our season building better
developers, developing our podcast, and
this is a season about moving forward,
getting unstuck, getting that forward
momentum, the things that you want to do
when you're not. when you're stuck in a
rut, you're like, I don't know why I
keep doing these same things and I just
I'm that hamster in the wheel and I'm
working my butt off and it's not getting
me anywhere. This is the season we're
going to talk about those things. And we
are talking with coach this time and we
will continue in this uh episode to talk
with Andrew Hankleman. U we'll give you
links in case you spell his name with a
silent Q and u we'll allow you to do
that so that you can connect with him
because he has a great offer. Uh if you
haven't listened to part one, pause
right here, go back, listen to part one
because we're going to pick up right
where we left off uh from part one. Uh I
probably should introduce myself because
I'm way behind on all of that kind of
stuff. My name is Rob Broadhead. I'm one
of the founders in developing. We're
also the founder of RV Consulting where
we don't allow you to sit around. We
just give you the spoilers right away.
No, actually what we do is we help you
leverage technology to create a unique
custom solution for your business. So,
you got a road map for success. Good
thing, bad thing. Uh, good thing is I am
settling into my new digs. I'm like
having a good old time. I'm adjust
adjusting to a uh time change and all
that kind of good stuff. The bad thing
is is I've managed somewhere along the
way to like I don't know if it's a bad
thing. I've shifted my day to start and
end later than it used to. uh which is
not horribly bad in general, but it's
just one of those it's now it's like I
have like I'm having to mentally adjust
to this a little bit more where I'm
like, you know, I get to noon and it's
not as much of my day has existed as
noon as it did just even a month or two
ago. So, it's not a rough good or bad,
but it is what it is. Something that is
always a little bit good and a little
bit bad is my co-host. So, go ahead and
introduce yourself, Michael.
>> Hey everyone, my name is Michael Malash.
one of the co-founders of DO for nerve
building better developers. Also the
founder of Envision QA where we design
and test software that fits your
workflow. That way you can stop fighting
your tools and start growing your
business. Good things and bad things. Uh
good things like this season forward uh
motion getting things rolling. Uh been
working on some new projects getting out
networking. I've got some new proposals
kind of going around. So really starting
to get this year off on the right foot.
Uh bad thing I'm still unfortunately
dragging a little bit from last year's
carrying over a little bit and uh part
of that was oops I forgot to do uh
December's financing stuff. So I'm
rushing real quick to get all that done
for tax season. Uh so that's kind of my
bad. But a lot of it is good. It's all
forward motion getting things done. Yes,
that was the like welcome to the new
year when all of this stuff like you got
to file this, file this, file this, file
this, file this, file this. I'm like ah
that's right. I got to do all those.
Luckily, it's not too complicated. I
kept stuff that I kept up to date with
my stuff for the most part. There just a
few little things, but it's still it's
accounting stuff. Not my favorite thing
to do. My favorite thing to do is have
these conversations and these
interviews. So, let's dive right in.
I've already told you what's coming. So,
let's get back to our conversation right
where we picked it up with where right
where we dropped it off with Andrew.
Yeah. People talk about, you know, they
be like, "Hey, stay in your lane." And
stuff like that. Usually is more of a a
negative, but it's definitely a positive
as well. This goes back, I think, like
you said earlier about like the things
that we do best sometimes are the ones
that we're most like to stick with. But
that's also where we're happier, we're
healthier, and if we're trying to do if
you're trying to juggle too many, you
know, balls in the air, then you're
going to end up, you know, suffering
with that. And that's uh and it gosh,
that swings back around even to the
whole like make sure you're doing the
thing. You know, there's a lot of there
are gosh, today especially, there's so
many distractions out there, whether
it's, you know, you can get lost in an
email, you can get lost in some sort of
chat thread, you can you can get lost in
a an AI thing, you can get there's so
many things that are out there and it's
it's really, you know, that's part of it
is finding that uh that clarity. So
actually before we we shift a little bit
um I do want to like I guess wrap that
one up say what is the
how do you walk in walk with somebody as
far as like getting their clarity. Is
there like a certain is there an
exercise or like we always talk about
like finding your why? Is there
something that you're you sort of say
like hey let's start with this so we
figure out where do you want to go with
your coaching?
>> Yeah there's a you know I have a program
it's there's the mechanics to it. We
meet every other week usually for six
months and then for a month, you know,
we'll meet monthly after that just to
kind of have some accountability and
stuff. And I mentioned emotional
intelligence. It's a huge pillar of of
what we'll work on. And I mentioned this
sort of starting off with 360, making
sure there's feedback,
but in between the real work is is
how am I doing on the new actions, the
new things I'm committing to and where
am I falling down and what's hard about
it? And along the way, we're sort of
uncovering
um more and more of what uh someone
needs to kind of address. So, so just to
make it super concrete, you know, most
people that I talk to are, you know,
somewhere maybe not fully burned out,
but they're somewhere in there. They're
in the spectrum of like approaching
being pretty burned out. people are
busy, distracted, they're pretty fried
in general. Um,
and overall, most people are pretty
lonely, too. Like, they don't they don't
necessarily like there's a lot of
isolation, especially with people
working remotely. Um,
so one of the things, one of the very
specific exercises that I do with people
is I have them write out all the things
that make them strong, feel good, feel
powerful, all of those kinds of things.
So I call it the causes and conditions,
right?
Point being, Rob, that that like for you
to have a great day tomorrow, there's
certain things that you're probably
going to do today, right? Maybe you're
going to work out. Maybe you're going to
spend some downtime reading. Make sure
you get enough sleep. All of those
things, you sort of get to a point where
you need the self-discipline
to honor those, right? You can't go into
every Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday
depleted.
>> You know, a weekend is not going to
solve your burnout. You got to like
start to have some specific habits that
are good for you um and build those in
and have some discipline around them.
So, that's just an example of sort of
like, you know, the kinds of things that
we might work on in the middle of a
coaching engagement.
Not sure if I answered your question.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that was a good answer. And
I think that's it's that's the problem
with so many things. We we joke about
that a lot in like consulting calls and
stuff like that when I say like what's a
good you know what's a ideal c customer
or something like that. It's like, well,
that depends. You know, it's the same
kind of thing. It's like it's it's very
personal. And so, it's hard to give a
like, you know, bop bop bop. Here's your
template. Here's like, you know, item
one, two, three. This is the way it
always works because it doesn't there's,
you know, everybody's unique and you
have to you have to find that uniqueness
before you even begin.
Um I mentioned earlier and this is like
now it's one of those things I think
everybody's curious about in various
areas is like where do you see do you
see AI impacting coaching because
there's like you know there's certain
areas that people are like oh this is
totally different and and honestly in
coaching area I've heard of some people
are like oh I had a chat with you know
an AI thing and like now I'm ready and
I'm off and going and it solved all my
problems and stuff like that. So, how do
you see or are there like I guess part
of it is not only where you see it
going, but it's like has it already
changed maybe some of the discussions as
you're bringing new people on?
>> Uh, it has it's changed a lot in the
coaching industry. Um, you know, there
are a lot of coaches that are developing
uh their own agents or their own
versions of a of a chat um that that has
all of their sort of methodologies and
all that kind of stuff. Um,
so you know the way that I look at it is
the thing that works well for you is
going to be the thing you choose. So,
like if Michael can fire up Gemini or
Claude or whatever his choice is and
say,
"Talk to me like a highly experienced
executive coach that's very skilled at
helping technical founders move from 5
million to 10 million and you know like
a incredibly specific prompt. She may
get really, really good results
and he may take those very seriously and
use them.
You might not, Rob. So, you might you
might kind of look at that as like, h,
it's just some more noise. I want to
talk to someone. I want to like talk to
someone who's gonna read my body
language and met someone who's been
where I've been and like know can help
me see around corners and and be a a a
part maybe a thought partner or
whatever. So my so my point really is I
think people are going to select what
they want
and and that's the way that it's going
to go. I don't I don't think that
coaching is going to go away and be
replaced by AI in the next five or 10
years, but I think some people are going
to get really valuable
input and coaching. They're going to get
valuable coaching out of an AI tool for
sure. Yeah. And it's having massive
impact already in a lot of learning
platforms, too.
So are you seeing sort of a I guess a
hybrid approach to it where people are
getting some you know some benefit out
of some of those tools but also using a
you know sort of like the best like I
said a best of breed or a hybrid kind of
approach where you've got a a real coach
a live coach and then also could utilize
some of those tools to help you know
continue to push you forward.
>> For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um it can be
hybrid, it can be all of one, all of the
other. I mean, frankly, a lot of the
very senior people that I talk to just
want a human. But I could see, you know,
as you know, generations
grow up with, you know, the normaly of
just walking around with, you know,
Gemini talking to them that they're
going to that'll be their way to go and
that it'll be impactful for them. Um
but yeah and sometimes you know the
leave it's a leave behind right so if I
can leave a version of me behind or I
can give you you know here's three or
four prompts you let's say it's a it's
early Tuesday morning you have a big
meeting and you just want you just want
a little bit of a run through little
roleplaying
you might not reach me so here here are
a couple really good prompts you could
use and and you you might get close.
So following up on that, so like if you
are working with a coach or working with
you, but your coach isn't available.
Yes, there are tools out there. You have
chat bots, things of that. What are
kind of like some disciplines or some
strategies that you you work with your
customers to do when they can't reach
you, but they need a coach or they
they're struggling with something to
kind of work through their problems when
there's no immediate help available.
Yeah, that's a really good question. Um,
so one of the things that I do is is I
let people know like for the most part I
am available. So, you know, I I realize
I just gave you that example where I'm
not, but for the most part, I make sure
people know they can text me and
everything. So, if you have a surprise
meeting coming up tomorrow afternoon,
then, you know, I'm happy to happy to
get together with you. But um in some
ways people don't need more inputs. So
I'm going to give you a non-answer
Michael and and that is that that
you are automatically in a knee-jerk way
going to think like I need to go read
this article or digest this book really
quick or get this audible download
whatever you know this thing that's out
there.
Honestly, like 80% of the time, it's not
what you need. You need to like sit
down,
quiet your mind a little bit, and trust
yourself cuz you probably already know
how to deal with that conflict, deal
with that tough manager. There's there
are things you already know that um and
and really trusting yourself in those
kinds of situations is probably more
effective than watching another YouTube
video.
>> That makes sense. And to kind of follow
up on I I like your answer and and I
kind of am following where you're going
with this, but there are times where
like you have a large me or a project or
something and you you are stuck in your
mind. Uh kind of getting back to that
kind of burnout kind of mentality where
you're stuck, you're thinking, you're
overthinking it. You're you're like
stressing it. And it helps to talk to
people sometimes, but like I said, like
you said, you try to be available, but
if you're not,
honestly, like YouTube videos, things
like that, that actually is more of a
stressor to me. It's like those don't
really help because you you need to talk
it through. Chat bots kind of help, but
they can also be hurtful because they're
always positive reinforcements, and
that's not necessarily always what you
want in those situations. What is your
recommendation? you know, and yes, you
can meditate, but how what are some tips
that you could offer to help someone
quiet their mind, kind of ease back down
and get to a calm
till they could talk to someone or maybe
get through their current crisis.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, the main
remedy for overthinking is is usually
exercise. So
if you can get outside, do something
physical,
burn off some of that energy, most times
that's the the best solution when you're
stuck in those loops and you're
overthinking. Um, but the other way I
want to answer this is that um, I like
to talk about allies.
So, in a corporate environment,
not your manager, but maybe one of your
manager's peers or the person that kind
of gets you and you get them and you've
had some experiences together and
they're trusted. Maybe it's a me, maybe
it's an informal mentor, but someone who
who you can talk to. Maybe it's peers.
Hopefully, you've been building strong
relationships sideways.
um in a business, if you're in a
startup, if you're a founder, for sure
you're involved in groups, networking
groups, whatever whatever that is, you
know, other business um people and and I
personally have found that those people
are amazing to talk to when and always
available, like super generous to talk
to me anytime I'm I need something to
work through. So, I think it's get out
of your head, get outside, work out, and
who are your allies around you? And and
you, you know, if you don't feel like
you have allies in your in your in your
company or where you work, it's it's
time to start identifying those people
and and putting a little effort in.
>> Yeah. You got to cultivate those
relationships so that you've got them
when you need them.
>> Yeah. And and and beyond your manager,
right? Like I think what happens when
people are in the first 10 years of
their career, they think their manager
is everything, right? And and you need
to kind of you need to expand beyond
that.
>> Yeah. I think that's been so I know
personally those have been some of the
best u you know soundboard relationships
have been those that were in completely
different department or something like
you said sort of the peers that are you
know got they're going to have a
different point of view and it's uh
those are almost always going to be
invaluable and nothing else will help
you uh get out of a rut you know even if
you end up falling back into it at least
for a little bit it gives you a way to
explore elsewhere
>> you have to be a little vulnerable right
like you got to kind of open up a little
>> you know I mean a lot of us are very
private it very tight and like you know
people people aren't going to you know
bond with you and you're not going to
form great relationships if everything's
transactional.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You got to go have lunch
with them beforehand or something like
that. You know, do something that's a
little that's not like in the heat of
fire.
>> Yeah.
What is a tip that you would offer those
that u might not be too extrovert or you
know network you know they may be like
since we all work a lot of people work
from home they don't get out they don't
talk to people a lot they don't network
what are some advices to these people to
kind of help them break out of their
shell to help expand their
um peers their network so that they kind
of have that safety so that they can
grow with uh not just within themselves
but within their communities.
>> Yeah. I I try to make that as simple as
possible and I mentioned working with a
lot of engineers and I feel like you're
you're most engineers are incredibly
curious. I mean I
that's that's my experience throughout
my my whole life. And and so
just by getting curious about something,
even if you have to kind of invent it a
little bit, like, you know, I'm curious
about this, I want to learn more, asking
questions is is kind of your pathway
there. I think if you if you're a little
nervous about reaching out or being in
meetups or, you know, going to going to
things, just kind of
try to try to, you know, get curious
about about the person across from you,
about the event, about what people doing
are doing and and kind of takes the
pressure off of you, right?
Most people want to talk about the
things they do and what they're into and
all that. So, I know it sounds simple,
but it can be a powerful tactic.
So, now we have, as often happens, we
have flown through our our time together
and you've got a a lot of great points
you've made, a lot of uh great ideas
that you've tossed out there. So, as the
the audience is listening in, what are
some of the best ways they would get a
hold of you if they're like, "Hey, I
want to explore this coaching thing a
little bit more."
>> Yeah, a great way to find me is just on
LinkedIn. So, Andrew Hinkleman, uh,
LinkedIn.
I don't think there's too many of Andrew
Hlelman's out there. So, um, if you get
the spelling right, you'll find me. Um,
connect with me. Send me a connection
request. I'll I'll accept it. And uh
underneath my name on my LinkedIn page
is a link to say something like book a
discovery call. So I mentioned doing you
know I'll just do a free coaching
session, right? So we just get on if
you're curious about coaching um you
know and there's something specific you
want to work on, we'll we'll take an
hour and you'll get a feel for it. It's
it's not it's not sales. It's not
something I charge people for, you know,
it's really just to kind of, you know,
give people the experience of um what
it's like.
>> Excellent. And we'll make sure we have
links for that to the correct Andrew
Engleman in case somebody spells it with
a silent Q or something like that. Make
sure we get those links in there.
Sometimes spelling can be a little
challenging. Thanks so much for your
time for for hanging out with us and
putting up with some of our questions as
we've we've wandered around this field.
But uh hopefully everybody has gotten
out something out of us. It feels a
little more uh especially in this, you
know, we're looking at being ways to
move forward and getting ourselves
unstuck. I would say definitely a coach
is one of those people. It's sometimes
you've got to get your got to get your
head up and step out and get some a
second set of eyes on your situation. So
we will uh we will wrap this one up. We
will be back back next episode. We will
continue with a fresh conversation. Uh
for now, go out there and have yourself
a great day, a great week, and we will
talk to you next time.
>> And so now for our
>> for our uh video uh audience here, those
people that are seeing our bright and
smiling faces, what would be like a
bonus tip? What would be I think with
this one is like
especially
is there a is there like a good uh we'll
say like a signal or red flag or
something like that when you're you're
sitting there that you're like that's
like hey maybe it's time to go reach out
to a coach particularly I mean there's
always the like you know something
horrible has happened and now I've got
to do it but something if they're if
somebody's sort of going down that road
like you know as you mentioned like some
line of uh working towards burnout or
something like that is there like a a
good red flag that somebody is
experiencing where it'd be like hey this
is a good time for you to go start
exploring coaches.
>> Yeah. Um this is especially good I think
for engineers which is patterns right?
So identifying the patterns, you know,
we're we're kind of trained, we're
trained to do that in our work, but if
you think about it in terms of yourself
and your results and the things you
want, the things you don't want,
what is what are the patterns that I'm
seeing? I'm I'm coming into the week
full of excitement and by Wednesday, I'm
depleted and and burnt and things aren't
happening. Okay. Well, now let's kind of
zero in here a little bit. So try, you
know, it's self-awareness is really what
I'm talking about. But look for look for
patterns and kind of treat your analysis
and engineering work like put the put
the spotlight on yourself a bit, right?
And and like see if you can kind of find
like what's moving what in which
direction.
>> Yeah, I think that's good. That's a very
uh analytical engineering approach that
we can all sort of apply to ourselves.
And it's some way it goes back to things
like you mentioned earlier about people
that journal and and do some of those
things where they're looking for they're
they're in that self-discovery mode.
They're looking for ways to learn and to
get better. And those are some of the
things that sometimes you want to make
sure you taking examining the path that
you've done. you know, do a little
retrospective or review and see how your
week went, your month went, and see if
there's some ways that, you know, maybe
there's some things that you you don't
know why, but it keeps happening. And
so, now is a good time to get somebody
to get that second set of eyes on it and
help somebody coach you through it. Now,
once again, I do want to thank you so
much for your time and for for hanging
out with us. Uh hopefully, you will have
some sunny days ahead to offset some of
the the clouds and some of those kinds
of things because yes, that is that is
what the Seattle area is known for
apparently. So,
It's just not enough not enough sunlight
out there.
>> Yeah. We got a few more months. It'll
it'll it'll be here.
>> Yep. Yeah. Just like just, you know, get
your sun lamp for a little bit and
you'll be good. You just like work your
way through it. Or just plan a couple of
good south trips south and you'll be
you'll be set to go. I think Mexico will
be be sunny enough for you. So
>> yeah, that it usually does the trick for
a little while, which seems to wear off.
So I got to figure out how to keep going
back, but
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. You got to find a good
like coaching session back there that
you're period like I'm sorry this has
got to be face to face. We're going to
have to come back in, you know.
>> That's right.
>> Maybe we'll batch them up. Something
like that. So
San Diego. Yeah.
>> There you go. That's not a bad place
either. You just sort of like toodle
down the coast there and you are you're
set to go. You know, maybe there's a
somebody at this at the San Diego zoo.
There's some people there that need some
help or something like that. So exactly
like sorry I got to go. Got to do it in
person.
>> Uh thank you very much for your time. We
will uh this will come out in I don't
know about a month or uh probably about
almost two months now towards the end of
February by the time we get this thing
out. Uh we will send you links and and
all of that kind of good stuff as we get
closer to it. Uh if there's anything I
think we've both connected to you on
LinkedIn.
>> Good.
>> Um so if there's anything we can do
between now and then, let us know. If
there's any way we can help, any
references or anything like that, we
would be happy to do so.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm right back at you if if
I can help support you guys in any way.
Um, you know, like I said, I'm always
happy to talk to someone, you know, for
a while if even if it's a small thing
or, you know, someone just needs a
different perspective. So, yeah, really
appreciate you guys having me. Um, and
look forward to staying connected.
>> Sounds good. Thanks a lot. We'll give
you a few minutes to go uh head off to
your next meeting. Have a have a good
one. Have a good rest of your day.
>> All right. You too. Thanks, guys. Bye.
Thank you. Bye. Bye.