Detailed Notes
In a recent Building Better Developers podcast episode, hosts Rob Broadhead and Michael Meloche delve into the art of handling difficult conversations. This episode serves as a follow-up to their previous discussion on fostering discussions, providing valuable insights into managing tough topics professionally and personally.
Read More: https://develpreneur.com/navigating-difficult-conversations-insights-from-the-building-better-developers-podcast/
*The 7-Day Challenge for Difficult Conversations*
To encourage listeners to apply these principles, the hosts present a 7-day challenge:
* Each day, identify a difficult conversation you need to have. * Schedule it as soon as possible rather than postponing it. * Observe how your assumptions compare to the actual outcome. * Reflect on how addressing these conversations impacts your productivity and relationships.
*Additional Resources*
* Honest Communication Is Critical For Consultants (https://develpreneur.com/honest-communication-is-critical-for-consultants/) * Sam McNeill – Difficult Conversations and Building a Culture of Teamwork (https://develpreneur.com/sam-mcneill-difficult-conversations-and-building-a-culture-of-teamwork/) * Difficult Conversations With Clients (https://develpreneur.com/difficult-conversations-with-clients/) * Setting Realistic Expectations In Development (https://develpreneur.com/navigating-realistic-expectations-in-software-development/)
*Follow-us on:*
* https://develpreneur.com/ * https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZOuFN_LhczvGyT2KSItH_g/featured * https://facebook.com/Develpreneur * https://twitter.com/develpreneur * http://linkedin.com/develpreneur
Transcript Text
[Music] all right and we will click record and we are back um we're going to dive right into this one because we did fostering discussions last episode um we're GNA get into difficult conversations this time I think this will be a fun followup to it nice little like pairing and and stuff like that so hey do you have slack up I do have slack up uh throw this one out there uh breaking or opening up and listening right breaking up uh opening up conversations and listening because we just talked about having uh you know opening up the conversations but we and we've talked about Focus before but I think we a good habit is how to listen like listening skills yeah as I cut you off yes yeah I don't have any listening skills so we'll have to figure I'll have to learn some between now and when we do that so actually I've got actually that's a slight side notice that yeah I I'm I developed a listening skill years ago that ticks Natalie off to no extent and so I've had to like figure out how to adjust that a little bit and it is sort of and I like I this is one of those that's interesting it's like I guess this is pre-b bonus material um it's an interesting thing because one of the things I developed a while back was to avoid the bullet point thing you know like suddenly I've got like eight different things um and actually more importantly for me because once I start building out that list I'm like I start getting drawn into that list and now I'm not listening I'm not catching enough stuff so I'll miss things and so what I will do um and I do this all the time is I will like I will stop somebody I'll even like I'll I will if I'm on like in I will like give them a timeout like wait I need talk about that point because sometimes it's a minor point but sometimes it's something where it's like I realize that that is going to trip me up I am not like it I know it's a red flag to me that I am not going to be listening to you for whatever you say because now I'm stuck on this thing and my mind is not I cannot process I cannot move off of that point until we talk about that point and so I will stop people I'll be like hold on stop I need to talk about that and I will interrupt people and stuff if they're on a roll I'll be like okay or sometime be like you know I will say like hey can we talk about this now and try to stop them unless they and I know it could be frustrating some people because they're like trying to get through stuff but it's like to me and this is me I'll be like well then don't say something that throws me off the rails at the beginning of the conversation but it is it could be seen as uh you know being rudely interrupting somebody where to me it's like no I'm like it's part of my conversations I want to talk about each of those points as we go instead of give you a whole list of bullet points so there's things like that that's like and so and it's worked with a lot of people there's some people that really have appreciated that I've had customers have talked to me about like how they like how it is a discussion and not lecturing each other when we talk about stuff uh but other people don't so it's where you have to like sometimes you have different approaches for different people and I think that's what we're going to talk a lot well we'll get into that if not this but I think the listening skills is a is one that um is going to be an interesting one to get into so that's an awesome you know soft skills kind of thing to get into that being said let's get into this one we're going to talk about fostering discussions and we're going do our little three and a two and a one well hello and welcome back we are building better developers we are in the middle of actually towards the end of the the sunset the fall of the season on building better habits getting towards the end of this this episode we are going to talk about ult conversations one that is not a difficult conversation is me introducing myself so this is building better developers this is a develop andur podcast which originally was develop andur mood to building better developers now that seems to be more like we're switching our uh headliner and our you know secondary title as things go on but my title is always has been for a long time Rob Broadhead I am one of the founders of develop andur also a founder of RB Consulting Where We Are are a what do they call a boutique consulting company we go in we help organizations utilize technology better whether it's what they have whether it's what is out there U you know sort of reigning in their technology sprawl because we have too many devices too many options too many applications there's an application for that becomes ad nauseum at times and so through simplification automation Innovation integration and lots of other shuns that are out there we find ways for you to make the best use of Technology we help craft a recipe for success for you that is specific to your business so that's why we sit down we talk about what are your goals what are your your plans where you at where do you want to be and then we help you find the best tools the best approach for that even the best team we can help you wherever you are at we meet you where we're at and we help like jump in the car with you for that ride into the future good things bad things uh let's see oh bad ah this is some people think this is a good thing bad thing because of temperatures and my wife was sick for Stuff a while and stuff like that this year has started with us eating out a lot we've done a lot more we've gotten back into this sort of habit like ah we'll just get something quick we'll get something quick we'll get something quick it's not really a good thing because I've like now I'm not where I was weightwise and healthwise and a couple other things the good part of that is now I am craving like I don't know a piece of celery or something that's not like fatty gross type of stuff I will still have my slice of pizza and stuff like that but also there's a part of me that my body is like I would love just a nice simple home-cooked meal again so that kind of stuff just tastes really good to me right now so I think that would be the good thing in the world of habits I would like to say there's so many out there that have been that been really good and I'm going to take them as a as a whole because last episode I talked a little bit about how the the joyful one like doing the stuff that I enjoy very much has sort of uh overlaps the the Automation and and some of that kind the process Improvement challenge I would say like this almost like a little mini challenge is take a look back at this season and look at all the challenges that we've got and try to like combine them to roll them up to summarize them because there's a a lot of that that I have done I've taken a lot of these because we're now you know we've got 20 plus habits and challenges that we've talked about but if you look at it you can actually find a way to condense those down to a few changes here and there and as I look at my schedule that's what I've done there's probably only you know an impact of a half hour to an hour a day that I've done that has dramatically changed stuff and that hour I've earned that back easily is like the ROI on that invested time is more than and worth it so I I would just say like take a look at what's out there and see where you can maybe combine two or three of those into one step and just really like turbocharge your your better habits and becoming a better developer now I'm just going to go toss this one off to Michael let him introduce himself hey everyone my name is Michael M I'm one of the co-founders of building better developers otherwise known as developer I'm also the founder of Envision QA where we help businesses understand what they have for technology if you find yourself looking at your business and struggling with your business because the software you're using makes your business or makes your tasks more difficult come talk to us we will help you figure out a better way to do things we will help you streamline your business and make the technology work for you not against you good and bad good uh and I'm actually going to combine our habits with my good and bad so the good is because I've been able to kind of break things down a little bit and stick with kind of doing things that I enjoy I have finally completed probably 95% of the books by Brandon Sanderson over the course of a year and a half it has taken a very long time to get through it but about an hour a day especially the last book that came out in November was 65 hours for an audio book that is massive for when you consume books that are typical audio books of eight hours a book this is eight books crammed into one I it was massive but I couldn't stop listening to it so all through the holidays I it's like listen listen listen finally got through it almost I've got like two books left of what he's written and then it that that's kind of the bad thing now it's like now I got to figure out what the heck I want to listen to next uh because I'm running out of content because he hasn't finished the next round of books the other bad thing was he ended the current book with oh by the way this was book five 6 through 10 will continue the story it's like it took you like a year and a half two years to write this last one come on five more books it's like Stephen King's Dark Tower series that took forever and we almost never got the end of that so anyway that's my good and bad ah I will follow up real quickly on that one is like yes I just finished I think I talked about that I finished the Shar a series like of 40 something books or whatever earlier this year and it was really odd for me to like okay now I got to find another big series to get into before I started into the Shar books this is something that's like I think half the books are out of print but there is a um I it was the guys the guy in a gal I think there was a guy in a gal that did way back in the day did the dragon Lance series of stuff this is uh originally came I think in the 80s and then into the 90s and stuff they also did one called the death gate cycle which uh is an interesting it's a seven book series which was really interesting the way they did it because the first four books basically set up the last three books and so it was like it was really it's like it's four books full of like Universe building stuff World building stuff and then the final three was the actual story so it was like an interesting little thing uh very different a lot of little different kind of Concepts some interesting characters it was uh so it's one of those if you want like a short series of you know seven books Go For It audio bookwise um if you ever want to do like if you want to have like an enjoyable but like take a couple years is actually go through the audio books of the Harry Potter series the guy that does that Dale what's his name I can't think of his last name is the best I of all the audio books he is the best of doing uh non or doing fiction audio books does a great job with it they are long it is I don't know it's probably 200 hours of stuff or something like that there's a lot there but they're all in a bridged and it it really is uh it's a good series now let's get back on track because we've had some easy conversations we're going to talk about difficult conversations this time around what is a difficult conversation I will say a difficult conversation is anything that gives you pause anything that makes you feel a little stress when we talk about getting things done and being productive we talk about eating the Frog we talk about that thing that you don't want to do if a conversation is that thing you don't want to do that you're worried about that you're not sure how it's go all of those kinds of stressors then that is a difficult conversation now some difficult conversations are difficult for everybody things like having a raise or you know getting married or getting divorced or having children or uh a lot of time money if it's like a negative you know kind of money conversation if it's a like how do I pay this bill because can't pay that bill uh it may be um conversation around like exercise because you're out of shape and you need to figure out a way to get into shape or some we all have our our things we like and the things we don't like difficult conversations are going to be more around what we don't like or where we assume that something is going to be that it's going to be a difficult conversation that it's going to be push back that we're going to be have some emotional aspect to it or something like that now the first first thing in difficult conversations that I want to say is that we assume that is a very key thing that I have found in the difficult conversations and actually even in the difficult jobs that we have on our plate is that a lot of times we think we assume we presuppose that it's going to go a certain way sometimes that is not the case for example you may be sitting there going gosh I have got to talk to my boss about getting a raise I haven't gotten a raise I need a raise I need to talk to them and you're thinking gosh I'm going to have to go in there I'm going to have to like build a case for it they're going to push back I'm going to have to like haggle about where we get it and all this kind it's going to take me days to go through this conversation with them and that could be the case or it could be the case that you go in and you say hey I'd like a raise and your boss says you know what you're right I we haven't gotten you a raise yet we will put it in the next paycheck and it's a 10% raise or whatever it is I have had those things go that way I've had conversations where I'm like really worried about this and it goes great I I will I will be totally transparent most uh demo calls with a customer when I'm going to demonstrate software when I'm showing them like here's where we're at a status call and stuff like that most of those I have some level of trepidation because I'm like ah they're not cuz they're going to see it like I do I think and they're going to be like oh there's that little bug or there's that little thing or there's I look at it as where was all these places that I could have done it better for them and very often like over nine times out of 10 probably 99 times out of 100 we get out of it and they are very pleased they're like yes this is like this is where we want to go we're on track you know all of that good stuff and it's not that I'm freaking out or losing sleep over it but it is the stuff where it's like I don't think this is necessarily going to go super smooth and usually it does and not only does it go super smooth a lot of times it's like hey and here's some additional stuff that we want to do and here's how we're going to move forward and so it really like it unblocks things it frees me up to start into the next phase of stuff and that's a key thing about difficult conversations is usually they are blockers usually you have to go through that conversation to get to something else so for example uh a difficult conversation you may be selling a project to somebody or selling somebody on a side hustle or going to an interview and getting a job like you can't get the job without going through the interview process and so sometimes that you know that like that's a difficult conversation and there's things like that where it's like I'm going to have to go uh change the scope of this because we missed something I have to I have to say that hey we we have a hole in the design and we've got to make some adjustments to the customer well we can't move forward until we've notified them and we can move forward on it so difficult conversations while they are being stresses they're also things like I think this is key as the two things are realize you're assuming that it's not going to go bad so it may actually not be that bad but more importantly these are blockers you have to go through it it will stop you until you have that conversation and now I'm blocking Michael right now so I'm going to let him talk about this for a little bit before we swing back around on the challenge yeah so it's funny this actually kind of gets back around to our uh anxiety uh and stressor conversation we had a couple weeks ago is this is kind of what drives a lot of people's what ifs this drives people's anxiety because you get in your head and you come into um conversations or you come into situations with a pre assumption as to what the conversation is going to be about or how it's going to go or you think it's going to go one way so you plan for another way it's very hard to kind of break out of that and have that conversation uh you know for instance you know what if you lose a job how do you come home and tell your family if you're married that you know you don't have an income anymore how how are you going to handle the situation and interestingly enough the antidotes to a lot of these situations like the difficult conversations are almost similar to dealing with anxiety you you want to walk into some of these difficult conversations with more of an open mind less of a preconception of how it's going to go but but in order to do that you have to kind of self-check yourself it's like oh make a list of what it is that is hard for you what is it that's bugging you what's on your mind that you can't seem to talk about because a lot of times when you dwell on these things and when you're thinking about it it it's usually one or two things you know it could be money hey how am I going to pay the bills this month or hey you know it's cold so the electric BS up $100 or $200 because he had to run the heat more so now it's like where are you going to cut the uh the fat sometimes he there's nothing you can do about it's like okay hey we just need to cut back a little bit or where can we pivot but what you do is instead of coming in with problems com in with Solutions it's like hey I have an idea on how to solve this but before you even try to solve it talk about it because maybe it's not a problem at all maybe it's like oh oh we'll just do this or hey it's not a deal or hey this isn't as difficult as you're making it out to be a lot of times our difficult conversations are us there are preconceived notions as to our blockers you know these are things we have problems dealing with sometimes not necessarily the conversations themselves so having a difficult conversation like Rob said about you know going in talking about a raise things like that sometimes heck when I go for job interviews if I'm not sure I'm ready to change jobs or hey I know things are getting difficult in the job I'm in sometimes I will just go out talk to a recruiter maybe take the first job that comes along go and have an interview I haven't interviewed in years so it's like you know let's just go see what this process is like instead of oh my God I need to plan I need to prepare I need to overthink that just go do it sometimes just doing it breaks all the barriers it's like oh that wasn't so hard or oh my God I don't remember half the stuff I'm supposed to do okay now I need to go prepare now you prepare for the next situation not sometimes it's just jump in you know jump in feet first have that difficult conversation but it is it it's a stressor it will bother you it'll make you think about it for a while and if you do find yourself in that situation pause write it down maybe go back to the anxiet the episode and listen to some of the tips and tricks we did there also apply here so if you find yourself avoiding something cut the fat rip the bandage off do it first do it now have it as soon as you can now Grant if it's a divorce you might want to plan a little bit but in most situations most difficult conversations are all in the person's head about it being difficult now that's mainly in the software world now in our personal lives that could be a totally different bag of worms I get it but when we think business when we think software when we think our typical daily lives most typical conversations are just us afraid to talk about something because we're either afraid of being seen in a bad light that we have failed that we have messed up and it's just a preconception that we need to break and just go for it just get it out there have that conversation if it does become difficult work through it or if it blows up pause you know see if you can say Okay that was as bad as I thought it was but then now you know and now you can kind of damage control or work your way through the problem I think but I want to dive into this is a little bit of the yeah is that last B is like sometimes there's a little bit of it is going to be bad and so there's like you know you got to do your damage control and stuff like that and so I want to give I do want to give a couple like recommendations in this is one when you go into a difficult conversation is try not to dictate too much where that goes because you've spent some time in your head you you've thought about this for a while you have an approach now it may be that you need to start with your approach but I have found a lot of times that that is not necessarily the way is that what you want to do is you actually are going to be better off opening that conversation up with something like hey we need to talk about this this is an issue what do you think or what would what's a solution for you if you throw that to the other person that allows them to set the table a little bit and this is where our assumptions and our U all of the different things that we have in our head that we think is how this is going to go can actually like trip us up they can cause US problems because we jump in this conversation with all these preconceived notions and they end up being not correct at all and maybe along the way we sort of we screw ourselves up by setting the stage with stuff where people like I didn't know that like that's not it it's like as an example I had a a police buddy years ago a detective and he said you would be a Amed at how often we pull up to something and people basically convict themselves talking to us he's like they are they're like he's like all we do is we sit there and listen and we'll throw like one or two things out and it's amazing how often people will just like they'll trip themselves up because they know there's a like especially guilty people this is like you know you're guilty you know that this is a difficult conversation and so you start like making excuses when they may not have even known that that was that you were guilty and so there's things like that that like don't go in with your preconceived notions open it up and let them talk to you because that actually will help you gauge better than what you did in your head how difficult or not the conversation is going to be now if it is something where you're like I screwed up massively and I know I've got to talk to my boss about it then start with just I screwed massively this is what happened this is what and like ideally with that kind of situation like this is what I'm doing to resolve it and maybe this is how I have decided I'm not going you know this is what I think I can do to avoid this in the future but even then I think you can start with just the I screwed up this is a resolution that I'm working on or that I'm proposing and then just leave it at that for a second now you may get chewed out for a while take it just like okay because however you get chewed out most likely is not as bad as you've chewed yourself out in your head thinking about it not only that it is like you probably have chewed yourself out on a daily basis since that thing occurred so it's better to just like get it done get it over with move forward and now you don't have to worry about it anymore because it's it's like worry somebody I don't remember I wish I could properly you know give the right credit to this but somebody referred to worrying as suffering the same pain twice because you suffer you worry about it and then it you suffer through it then but then when it actually occurs you suffer through it at that point now sometimes we invent worries we invent things that are not suffering and we suffer for no reason so that's why these difficult conversations are the things we need to go through but also probably more importantly is that these block us from moving forward and when we're blocked it's just not is not helpful we're not going to if we can open stuff up then we can get a lot more done we could be more effective we can be better developers we can be better human beings so I want to dive right into the challenge for this one the challenge for this for the next seven days is each day start the day do I have a difficult conversation ahead of me if so schedule it as soon as possible now Michael referred to there's like there's sometimes like you need to read the room and you need to like you especially in personal stuff and things like that there's things there like you need to let emotions go through it and like there needs to be some sort of process but if there's something that's to that point where the next step is have a conversation get that done sooner rather than later if there's something you've been putting off for a while then put it on your calendar today tomorrow this week something like that and that's just that's as simple as it is is take the difficult conversations and pull them forward do them as soon as possible now I will be like just one warning if you got a lot piled up don't do it all in one day or if you do just like buckle up buttercup because it's going to be a rough day like know that at the end of the day you're going to need an adult beverage or six to like get through it and there I have had those because sometimes you know you just like the schedule works out it's like it's been a you know it's going to be a long day and you were right it was a long day but at least then you're done with it and the next day is going to be better I would also challenge you to send us an email just cuz because hey we've been asking for it for way too long and we don't get near enough emails based on how often I ask for emails so shoot us an email at info developer.com check us out on the developer Channel on YouTube you can wherever you do podcasts you can leave us re uh you know reviews and comments there we would love to get them there there's just so many ways that you can reach us there's just no excuse to not give us your thought give us your two cents and if this is your difficult conversation trust me it's not going to be that difficult we will send you like love and adoration and all that kind of stuff afterwards after you've sent us some sort of feedback even if your feedback is you guys suck hey we will send you a thank you card of some sort even if it's a virtual one that being said it's time for us to wrap this one up not the season we've got plenty more not so difficult conversations in our future as we wrap this one up but until then go out there and have yourself a great day a great week and we will talk to you next time bonus material I'm going to dive into this one first because once again I've got one that is like I got to do it before I forget one of the things that I heard uh it's a couple years ago with a a guy that was actually a fraternity brother that I was working for with and he talked about a meeting and it was like it was one of these like aha moments as we got out of this meeting and it was difficult discussion because it was basically basically like there's three people there's a customer there's a provider and there's another provider and we were one of the providers one of the vendors and the two vendors were basically like the other vendor was saying everything was our fault was why everything was falling apart and we were saying look they're not doing what they're supposed to do and like you know it was basically it was about agreements and stuff like that we knew it was going to be rough and part of it was the customer they also were at fault they totally botched stuff the lady that was running it like went on medical leave for three months like two weeks into it and when she was warned about stuff she was just like just make it Go just make it go away just fix it and we couldn't because it was a vendor issue and we get into this meeting we know it's going to be tough and when we got done one of the things that like we we we'll say we won that meeting is we got out of that we we were unscathed and we actually were like Heroes to the the customer but one of the things he mentioned that stuck with me is he said like that's one of the meetings and actually I think I think it was even in it he's said this is a meeting that you win by talking the least and I think that is a huge thing for us to think about is that when we go into meetings when we go into difficult conversations sometimes the way for us to quote win it is to shut the hell up is to be as minimal as possible and let the other party or parties vent talk do whatever it is that they need to do now that's not always the case there's sometimes that we need to like we also need to like have a backbone and state our case but sometimes it is as simple as state your case and then get out of the way keep it simple keep it short and then allow the conversation to grow from there and the more you allow them particularly in situations where it's a difficult conversation it really is something where U most of the times the less you talk the better think about like your the raise raise request from your boss it is I would you know you say I've been here long enough IDE need to raise this is the you know the industry standard here's my you know couple of bullet points you very concisely just say I would like a raise I would like to have this conversation put it on your boss now it's up to them to figure out how to convince you that you don't need a raise or to give you a raise or whatever it is and sometimes and anybody that's worked with me will find that this is something that I do is it in talking through stuff sometimes my opinion will evolve to the point that like and I think Michael probably can think has had these conversations where like somebody says something to me for a minute they spend a minute of time and I will spend the next 20 minutes walking through that talking through that I'm thinking on the Fly And while I may initially say I disagree completely with your point by the time I get to the end of that I have convinced myself that I agree 100% with your point and so sometimes it is it's like allow people to just go and see what happens with it so that's my like little bonus thing is that sometimes and maybe a lot of times we need to think that we need to go into a difficult conversation with the idea that whoever speaks the least is going to win this because I think that will help keep us from tripping ourselves up bonus material from you so my bonus here is with the difficult conversations especially within work or life make sure you make time for conversations don't get into silos where you're not talking for long periods of time and letting things build up this works both professionally and personally because if you are heads down for a month and you're not talking to anyone in the company and this all of a sudden you come out and hey half the cubicles are empty because there's a massive layoff you weren't paying attention pay attention to your surroundings pay attention to your life pay attention to your job your relationships and the best way to do that is to look at those difficult conversations and make sure you're having the right conversations you know don't go in this difficult conversation like I hate pizza and we we go out to Pizza all the time no that's not a difficult conversation that's just a disagreement order us out all right let's not get czy make sure you distinguish between what is a difficult conversation and what is just a disagreement on a topic or an idea um that there is a slight difference between the two and just make sure that you're open to the discussion if you're not or you're not in the right frame of mind say okay I hear you can you give me maybe 30 minutes to put aside what I'm currently working on or what's stuck in my head and then let's have that talk sometimes it's like right now is not the right to on but you do want to make sure you schedule that time and have that conversation yeah don't let it Fester but sometimes like right now particularly if you're like Michael said like if it's a divorce conversation then probably you should like cool your heels for a little bit you know there's things like that there is like I'll throw one other thing out there when I was a hockey coach even early on one the things a lot of the coaches said and I think even soccer a lot of the youth coaches in particular had a 24-hour Rule and it was basically like with the when they're talking to the parents if you don't like how I coached or if you don't if you've got a complaint about a game or a PR a practice or whatever about your kid that you want to talk to me about give it 24 hours before you talk to me because a lot of times both particularly like that that's a good example of like you come out of a game especially if it's a loss and the parents are because their kid wasn't played enough and you're a coach and you're ticked cuz your team lost because maybe they weren't playing hard enough or maybe that parents kid sucked that day and that's why they didn't play enough you're both both parties are emotional it is raw and it is fresh and it is good to like spend a little time and then come back to it later now it doesn't hurt to say we need to have a conversation about this we will talk about it later because sometimes I found that we need to re like we will be emotional too often and we need at some point say we need to talk about the fact that we are always super emotional after this thing and that's just not cool so there's something we need to figure out but that's like Take It Outside of the emotional you know scope the emotional bubble so that you can have an actual conversation about it and actually figure out how to solve a problem as opposed to just blow up the problem I'm going to solve your problem about not having enough time and we're going to wrap wrap this one up I want to thank you so much for spending some time with us for what you've invested with us I do love to hear just any feedback is awesome even like the simplest feedback is really you know appreciated and particular if it's anything that is a recommendation or suggestion we really really really love that because it helps us help you it helps us become better podcasters it helps develop and or be a site that is useful to our our community which is you you or why we are here so thank you so much for your time for your investment and we will talk to you next time [Music]
Transcript Segments
[Music]
all right
and we will click record and we are
back um we're going to dive right into
this one because we did fostering
discussions last episode um we're GNA
get into difficult conversations this
time I think this will be a
fun followup to it nice little like
pairing and and stuff like that so hey
do you have slack up I do have slack up
uh throw this one out there uh breaking
or opening up and listening right
breaking up uh opening up conversations
and listening because we just talked
about having uh you know opening up the
conversations but we and we've talked
about Focus before but I think we a good
habit is how to listen like listening
skills yeah as I cut you off
yes yeah I don't have any listening
skills so we'll have to figure I'll have
to learn some between now and when we do
that so
actually I've got actually that's a
slight side notice that yeah I
I'm I developed a listening skill years
ago that ticks Natalie off to no extent
and so I've had to like figure out how
to adjust that a little bit and it is
sort of and I like I this is one of
those that's interesting it's like I
guess this is pre-b bonus material um
it's an interesting thing because one of
the things I developed a while back was
to avoid the bullet point thing you know
like suddenly I've got like eight
different things um and actually more
importantly for me because once I start
building out that list I'm like I start
getting drawn into that list and now I'm
not listening I'm not catching enough
stuff so I'll miss things and so what I
will do um and I do this all the time is
I will like I will stop somebody I'll
even like I'll I will if I'm on like in
I will like give them a timeout like
wait I need talk about that point
because sometimes it's a minor point but
sometimes it's something where it's like
I realize that that is going to trip me
up I am not like it I know it's a red
flag to me that I am not going to be
listening to you for whatever you say
because now I'm stuck on this thing and
my mind is not I cannot process I cannot
move off of that point until we talk
about that point and so I will stop
people I'll be like hold on stop I need
to talk about that and I will interrupt
people and stuff if they're on a roll
I'll be like okay or sometime be like
you know I will say like hey can we talk
about this now and try to stop them
unless they and I know it could be
frustrating some people because they're
like trying to get through stuff but
it's like to me and this is me I'll be
like well then don't say something that
throws me off the rails at the beginning
of the conversation but it is it could
be seen as uh you know being rudely
interrupting somebody where to me it's
like no I'm like it's part of my
conversations I want to talk about each
of those points as we go instead of give
you a whole list of bullet points so
there's things like that that's like and
so and it's worked with a lot of people
there's some people that really have
appreciated that I've had customers have
talked to me about like how they like
how it is a discussion and not lecturing
each other when we talk about stuff uh
but other people don't so it's where you
have to like sometimes you have
different approaches for different
people and I think that's what we're
going to talk a lot well we'll get into
that if not this but I think the
listening skills is a is one that um is
going to be an interesting one to get
into so that's an awesome you know soft
skills kind of thing to get into that
being said let's get into this one we're
going to talk about fostering
discussions and we're going do our
little three and a two and a one well
hello and welcome back we are building
better developers we are in the middle
of actually towards the end of the the
sunset the fall of the season on
building better habits getting towards
the end of this this episode we are
going to talk about ult conversations
one that is not a difficult conversation
is me introducing myself so this is
building better developers this is a
develop andur podcast which originally
was develop andur mood to building
better developers now that seems to be
more like we're switching our uh
headliner and our you know secondary
title as things go on but my title is
always has been for a long time Rob
Broadhead I am one of the founders of
develop andur also a founder of RB
Consulting Where We Are are a what do
they call a boutique consulting company
we go in we help organizations utilize
technology better whether it's what they
have whether it's what is out there U
you know sort of reigning in their
technology sprawl because we have too
many devices too many options too many
applications there's an application for
that becomes ad nauseum at times and so
through simplification automation
Innovation integration and lots of other
shuns that are out there we find ways
for you to make the best use of
Technology we help craft a recipe for
success for you that is specific to your
business so that's why we sit down we
talk about what are your goals what are
your your plans where you at where do
you want to be and then we help you find
the best tools the best approach for
that even the best team we can help you
wherever you are at we meet you where
we're at and we help like jump in the
car with you for that ride into the
future good things bad things uh let's
see oh bad ah this is some people think
this is a good thing bad thing because
of temperatures and my wife was sick for
Stuff a while and stuff like that this
year has started with us eating out a
lot we've done a lot more we've gotten
back into this sort of habit like ah
we'll just get something quick we'll get
something quick we'll get something
quick it's not really a good thing
because I've like now I'm not where I
was weightwise and healthwise and a
couple other things the good part of
that is now I am craving like I don't
know a piece of celery or something
that's not like fatty gross type of
stuff I will still have my slice of
pizza and stuff like that but also
there's a part of me that my body is
like I would love just a nice simple
home-cooked meal again so that kind of
stuff just tastes really good to me
right now so I think that would be the
good thing in the world of
habits I would like to say there's so
many out there that have been that been
really good and I'm going to take them
as a as a whole because last episode I
talked a little bit about how the the
joyful one like doing the stuff that I
enjoy very much has sort of uh overlaps
the the Automation and and some of that
kind the process Improvement challenge I
would say like this almost like a little
mini challenge is take a look back at
this season and look at all the
challenges that we've got and try to
like combine them to roll them up to
summarize them because there's a a lot
of that that I have done I've taken a
lot of these because we're now you know
we've got 20 plus habits and challenges
that we've talked about but if you look
at it you can actually find a way to
condense those down to a few changes
here and there and as I look at my
schedule that's what I've done there's
probably only you know an impact of a
half hour to an hour a day that I've
done that has dramatically changed stuff
and that hour I've earned that back
easily is like the ROI on that invested
time is more than and worth it so I I
would just say like take a look at
what's out there and see where you can
maybe combine two or three of those into
one step and just really like
turbocharge your your better habits and
becoming a better
developer now I'm just going to go toss
this one off to Michael let him
introduce himself hey everyone my name
is Michael M I'm one of the co-founders
of building better developers otherwise
known as developer I'm also the founder
of Envision QA where we help businesses
understand what they have for technology
if you find yourself looking at your
business and struggling with your
business because the software you're
using makes your business or makes your
tasks more difficult come talk to us we
will help you figure out a better way to
do things we will help you streamline
your business and make the technology
work for you not against
you good and bad good uh and I'm
actually going to combine our habits
with my good and bad so the good is
because I've been able to kind of break
things down a little bit and stick with
kind of doing things that I enjoy I have
finally completed probably 95% of the
books by Brandon Sanderson over the
course of a year and a
half it has taken a very long time to
get through it but about an hour a day
especially the last book that came out
in November was 65 hours for an audio
book that is massive for when you
consume books that are typical audio
books of eight hours a book this is
eight books crammed into one I it was
massive but I couldn't stop listening to
it so all through the holidays I it's
like listen listen
listen finally got through it almost
I've got like two books left of what
he's written and then it that that's
kind of the bad thing now it's like now
I got to figure out what the heck I want
to listen to next uh because I'm running
out of content because he hasn't
finished the next round of books the
other bad thing was he ended the current
book with oh by the way this was book
five 6 through 10 will continue the
story it's like it took you like a year
and a half two years to write this last
one come on five more books it's like
Stephen King's Dark Tower series that
took forever and we almost never got the
end of that so anyway that's my good and
bad ah I will follow up real quickly on
that one is like yes I just finished I
think I talked about that I finished the
Shar a series like of 40 something books
or whatever earlier this year and it was
really odd for me to like okay now I got
to find another big series to get into
before I started into the Shar books
this is something that's like I think
half the books are out of print but
there is a um I it was the guys the guy
in a gal I think there was a guy in a
gal that did way back in the day did the
dragon Lance series of stuff this is uh
originally came I think in the 80s and
then into the 90s and stuff they also
did one called the death gate cycle
which
uh is an interesting it's a seven book
series which was really interesting the
way they did it because the first four
books basically set up the last three
books and so it was like it was really
it's like it's four books full of like
Universe building stuff World building
stuff and then the final three was the
actual story so it was like an
interesting little thing uh very
different a lot of little different kind
of Concepts some interesting characters
it was uh so it's one of those if you
want like a short series of you know
seven books Go For It audio
bookwise um if you ever want to do like
if you want to have like an enjoyable
but like take a couple years is actually
go through the audio books of the Harry
Potter series the guy that does that
Dale what's his name I can't think of
his last name is the best I of all the
audio books he is the best of doing uh
non or doing fiction audio books does a
great job with it they are long it is I
don't know it's probably
200 hours of stuff or something like
that there's a lot there but they're all
in a bridged and it it really is uh it's
a good series now let's get back on
track because we've had some easy
conversations we're going to talk about
difficult conversations this time
around what is a difficult conversation
I will say a difficult conversation is
anything that gives you pause anything
that makes you feel a little stress when
we talk about getting things done and
being productive we talk about eating
the Frog we talk about that thing that
you don't want to do if a conversation
is that thing you don't want to do that
you're worried about that you're not
sure how it's go all of those kinds of
stressors then that is a difficult
conversation now some difficult
conversations are difficult for
everybody things like having a raise or
you know getting married or getting
divorced or having children or uh a lot
of time money if it's like a negative
you know kind of money conversation if
it's a like how do I pay this bill
because can't pay that bill uh it may be
um conversation around like exercise
because you're out of shape and you need
to figure out a way to get into shape or
some we all have our our things we like
and the things we don't like difficult
conversations are going to be more
around what we don't like or where we
assume that something is going to be
that it's going to be a difficult
conversation that it's going to be push
back that we're going to be have some
emotional aspect to it or something like
that now the first first thing in
difficult conversations that I want to
say is that we assume that is a very key
thing that I have found in the difficult
conversations and actually even in the
difficult jobs that we have on our plate
is that a lot of times we think we
assume we presuppose that it's going to
go a certain
way sometimes that is not the case for
example you may be sitting there going
gosh I have got to talk to my boss about
getting a raise I haven't gotten a raise
I need a raise I need to talk to them
and you're thinking gosh I'm going to
have to go in there I'm going to have to
like build a case for it they're going
to push back I'm going to have to like
haggle about where we get it and all
this kind it's going to take me days to
go through this conversation with them
and that could be the case or it could
be the case that you go in and you say
hey I'd like a raise and your boss says
you know what you're right I we haven't
gotten you a raise yet we will put it in
the next paycheck and it's a 10% raise
or whatever it is I have had those
things go that way I've had
conversations where I'm like really
worried about this and it goes great I I
will I will be totally transparent most
uh demo calls with a customer when I'm
going to demonstrate software when I'm
showing them like here's where we're at
a status call and stuff like that most
of those I have some level of
trepidation because I'm like ah they're
not cuz they're going to see it like I
do I think and they're going to be like
oh there's that little bug or there's
that little thing or there's I look at
it as where was all these places that I
could have done it better for them and
very often like over nine times out of
10 probably 99 times out of 100 we get
out of it and they are very pleased
they're like yes this is like this is
where we want to go we're on track you
know all of that good stuff and it's not
that I'm freaking out or losing sleep
over it but it is the stuff where it's
like I don't think this is necessarily
going to go super smooth and usually it
does and not only does it go super
smooth a lot of times it's like hey and
here's some additional stuff that we
want to do and here's how we're going to
move forward and so it really like it
unblocks things it frees me up to start
into the next phase of stuff and that's
a key thing about difficult
conversations is usually they are
blockers usually you have to go through
that conversation to get to something
else so for
example uh a difficult conversation you
may be selling a project to somebody or
selling somebody on a side hustle or
going to an interview and getting a job
like you can't get the job without going
through the interview process and so
sometimes that you know that like that's
a difficult conversation and there's
things like that where it's like I'm
going to have to go uh change the scope
of this because we missed something I
have to I have to say that hey we we
have a hole in the design and we've got
to make some adjustments to the customer
well we can't move forward until we've
notified them and we can move forward on
it so difficult conversations while they
are being stresses they're also things
like I think this is key as the two
things are realize you're assuming that
it's not going to go bad so it may
actually not be that bad but more
importantly these are blockers you have
to go through it it will stop you until
you have that conversation and now I'm
blocking Michael right now so I'm going
to let him talk about this for a little
bit before we swing back around on the
challenge yeah so it's funny this
actually kind of gets back around to our
uh anxiety uh and
stressor conversation we had a couple
weeks ago is this is kind of what drives
a lot of people's what ifs this drives
people's anxiety because you get in your
head and you come into um conversations
or you come into situations with a pre
assumption as to what the conversation
is going to be about or how it's going
to go or you think it's going to go one
way so you plan for another
way it's very hard to kind of break out
of that and have that conversation uh
you
know for instance you know what if you
lose a job how do you come home and tell
your family if you're married that you
know you don't have an income anymore
how how are you going to handle the
situation and interestingly enough the
antidotes to a lot of these situations
like the difficult conversations are
almost similar to dealing with anxiety
you you want to walk into some of these
difficult conversations with more of an
open mind less of a preconception of how
it's going to go but but in order to do
that you have to kind of self-check
yourself it's like oh make a list of
what it is that is hard for you what is
it that's bugging you what's on your
mind that you can't seem to talk about
because a lot of times when you dwell on
these things and when you're thinking
about it it it's usually one or two
things you know it could be money hey
how am I going to pay the bills this
month or hey you know it's cold so the
electric BS up $100 or $200 because he
had to run the heat more so now it's
like where are you going to cut the uh
the fat sometimes he there's nothing you
can do about it's like okay hey we just
need to cut back a little bit or where
can we pivot but what you do is instead
of coming in with problems com in with
Solutions it's like hey I have an idea
on how to solve this but before you even
try to solve it talk about it because
maybe it's not a problem at all maybe
it's like oh oh we'll just do this or
hey it's not a deal or hey this isn't as
difficult as you're making it out to be
a lot of times our difficult
conversations are us there are
preconceived notions as to our blockers
you know these are things we have
problems dealing with sometimes not
necessarily the conversations themselves
so having a difficult conversation like
Rob said about you know going in talking
about a raise things like that sometimes
heck when I go for job interviews if I'm
not sure I'm ready to change jobs or hey
I know things are getting difficult in
the job I'm in sometimes I will just go
out talk to a recruiter maybe take the
first job that comes along go and have
an interview I haven't interviewed in
years so it's like you know let's just
go see what this process is like instead
of oh my God I need to plan I need to
prepare I need to overthink that just go
do it sometimes just doing it
breaks all the barriers it's like oh
that wasn't so hard or oh my God I don't
remember half the stuff I'm supposed to
do okay now I need to go prepare now you
prepare for the next situation not
sometimes it's just jump in you know
jump in feet first have that difficult
conversation but it is it it's a
stressor it will bother you it'll make
you think about it for a while and if
you do find yourself in that situation
pause write it down maybe go back to the
anxiet the episode and listen to some of
the tips and tricks we did there also
apply here so if you find yourself
avoiding something cut the fat rip the
bandage off do it first do it now have
it as soon as you can now Grant if it's
a divorce you might want to plan a
little bit
but in most situations most difficult
conversations are all in the person's
head about it being difficult now
that's mainly in the software world now
in our personal lives that could be a
totally different bag of worms I get it
but when we think business when we think
software when we think our typical daily
lives most typical conversations are
just us afraid to talk about something
because we're either afraid of being
seen in a bad
light that we have failed that we have
messed up and it's just a preconception
that we need to break and just go for it
just get it out there have that
conversation if it does become difficult
work through it or if it blows up pause
you know see if you can say Okay that
was as bad as I thought it was but then
now you know and now you can kind of
damage control or work your way through
the
problem I think but I want to dive into
this is a little bit of the yeah is that
last B is like sometimes there's a
little bit of it is going to be bad and
so there's like you know you got to do
your damage control and stuff like that
and so I want to give I do want to give
a couple like recommendations in this is
one when you go into a difficult
conversation is try not
to dictate too much where that goes
because you've spent some time in your
head you you've thought about this for a
while you have an approach now it may be
that you need to start with your
approach but I have found a lot of times
that that is not necessarily the way is
that what you want to do is you actually
are going to be better off opening that
conversation up with something like hey
we need to talk about this this is an
issue what do you think or what would
what's a solution for you if you throw
that to the other
person that allows them to set the table
a little bit and this is where our
assumptions and our U all of the
different things that we have in our
head that we think is how this is going
to go can actually like trip us up they
can cause US problems because we jump in
this conversation with all these
preconceived notions and they end up
being not correct at all and maybe along
the way we sort of we screw ourselves up
by setting the stage with stuff where
people like I didn't know that like
that's not it it's like as an example I
had a a police buddy years ago a
detective and he said you would be a
Amed at how often we pull up to
something and people basically convict
themselves talking to us he's like they
are they're like he's like all we do is
we sit there and listen and we'll throw
like one or two things out and it's
amazing how often people will just like
they'll trip themselves up because they
know there's a like especially guilty
people this is like you know you're
guilty you know that this is a difficult
conversation and so you start like
making excuses when they may not have
even known that that was that you were
guilty and so there's things like that
that
like don't go in with your preconceived
notions open it up and let them talk to
you because that actually will help you
gauge better than what you did in your
head how difficult or not the
conversation is going to be now if it is
something where you're like I screwed up
massively and I know I've got to talk to
my boss about it then start with just I
screwed
massively this is what happened this is
what and like ideally with that kind of
situation like this is what I'm doing to
resolve it and maybe this is how I have
decided I'm not going you know this is
what I think I can do to avoid this in
the future but even then I think you can
start with just the I screwed up this is
a resolution that I'm working on or that
I'm proposing and then just leave it at
that for a second now you may get chewed
out for a
while take it just like okay because
however you get chewed out most likely
is not as bad as you've chewed yourself
out in your head thinking about it not
only that it is like you probably have
chewed yourself out on a daily basis
since that thing occurred so it's better
to just like get it done get it over
with move forward and now you don't have
to worry about it anymore because it's
it's like worry somebody I don't
remember I wish I could properly you
know give the right credit to this but
somebody referred to worrying as
suffering the same pain twice because
you suffer you worry about it and then
it you suffer through it then but then
when it actually occurs you suffer
through it at that point now sometimes
we invent worries we invent things that
are not suffering and we suffer for no
reason so that's why these difficult
conversations are the things we need to
go through but also probably more
importantly is that these block us from
moving forward and when we're blocked
it's just not is not helpful we're not
going to if we can open stuff up then we
can get a lot more done we could be more
effective we can be better developers we
can be better human
beings so I want to dive right into the
challenge for this one the challenge for
this for the next seven days is each day
start the day do I have a difficult
conversation ahead of me if so schedule
it as soon as possible now Michael
referred to there's like there's
sometimes like you need to read the room
and you need to like you especially in
personal stuff and things like that
there's things there like you need to
let emotions go through it and like
there needs to be some sort of process
but if there's something that's to that
point where the next step is have a
conversation get that done sooner rather
than later if there's something you've
been putting off for a while then put it
on your calendar today tomorrow this
week something like that and that's just
that's as simple as it is is take the
difficult conversations and pull them
forward do them as soon as possible now
I will be like just one warning if you
got a lot piled up don't do it all in
one day or if you do just
like buckle up buttercup because it's
going to be a rough day like know that
at the end of the day you're going to
need an adult beverage or six to like
get through it and there I have had
those because sometimes you know you
just like the schedule works out it's
like it's been a you know it's going to
be a long day and you were right it was
a long day but at least then you're done
with it and the next day is going to be
better
I would also challenge you to send us an
email just cuz because hey we've been
asking for it for way too long and we
don't get near enough emails based on
how often I ask for emails so shoot us
an email at info developer.com check us
out on the developer Channel on YouTube
you can wherever you do podcasts you can
leave us re uh you know reviews and
comments there we would love to get them
there there's just so many ways that you
can reach us there's just no excuse to
not give us your thought give us your
two cents and if this is your difficult
conversation trust me it's not going to
be that difficult we will send you like
love and adoration and all that kind of
stuff afterwards after you've sent us
some sort of feedback even if your
feedback is you guys suck hey we will
send you a thank you card of some sort
even if it's a virtual one that being
said it's time for us to wrap this one
up not the season we've got plenty more
not so difficult conversations in our
future as we wrap this one up but until
then go out there and have yourself a
great day a great week and we will talk
to you next
time bonus material I'm going to dive
into this one first because once again
I've got one that is like I got to do it
before I
forget one of the things that I heard uh
it's a couple years ago with a a guy
that was actually a fraternity brother
that I was working for with and he
talked about a meeting and it was like
it was one of these like aha moments as
we got out of this meeting and it was
difficult discussion because it was
basically basically like there's three
people there's a customer there's a
provider and there's another provider
and we were one of the providers one of
the vendors and the two vendors were
basically like the other vendor was
saying everything was our fault was why
everything was falling apart and we were
saying look they're not doing what
they're supposed to do and like you know
it was basically it was about agreements
and stuff like that we knew it was going
to be rough and part of it was the
customer they also were at fault they
totally botched stuff the lady that was
running it like went on medical leave
for three months like two weeks into it
and when she was warned about stuff she
was just like just make it Go just make
it go away just fix it and we couldn't
because it was a vendor
issue and we get into this meeting we
know it's going to be tough and when we
got done one of the things that like we
we we'll say we won that meeting is we
got out of that we we were unscathed and
we actually were like Heroes to the the
customer but one of the things he
mentioned that stuck with me is he said
like that's one of the meetings and
actually I think I think it was even in
it he's said this is a meeting that you
win by talking the least and I think
that is a huge thing for us to think
about is that when we go into meetings
when we go into difficult conversations
sometimes the way for us to quote win it
is to shut the hell up is to be as
minimal as possible and let the other
party or parties vent talk do whatever
it is that they need to do now that's
not always the case there's sometimes
that we need to like we also need to
like have a backbone and state our case
but sometimes it is as simple as state
your case and then get out of the way
keep it simple keep it short and then
allow the conversation to grow from
there and the more you allow them
particularly in situations where it's a
difficult conversation it really is
something where U most of the times the
less you talk the better think about
like your the raise raise request from
your boss it is
I would you know you say I've been here
long enough IDE need to raise this is
the you know the industry standard
here's my you know couple of bullet
points you very concisely just say I
would like a raise I would like to have
this
conversation put it on your boss now
it's up to them to figure out how to
convince you that you don't need a raise
or to give you a raise or whatever it is
and sometimes and anybody that's worked
with me will find that this is something
that I do is it in talking through stuff
sometimes my opinion will evolve to the
point that like and I think Michael
probably can think has had these
conversations where like somebody says
something to me for a minute they spend
a minute of time and I will spend the
next 20 minutes walking through that
talking through that I'm thinking on the
Fly And while I may initially say I
disagree completely with your point by
the time I get to the end of that I have
convinced myself that I agree 100% with
your point and so sometimes it is it's
like allow people to just go and see
what happens with it so that's my like
little bonus thing is that sometimes and
maybe a lot of times we need to think
that we need to go into a difficult
conversation with the idea that whoever
speaks the least is going to win this
because I think that will help keep us
from tripping ourselves up bonus
material from you so my bonus here is
with the difficult conversations
especially within work or
life make sure you make time for
conversations don't get into silos where
you're not talking for long periods of
time and letting things build up this
works both professionally and personally
because if you are heads down for a
month and you're not talking to anyone
in the company and this all of a sudden
you come out and
hey half the cubicles are empty because
there's a massive layoff you weren't
paying attention pay attention to your
surroundings pay attention to your life
pay attention to your job your
relationships and the best way to do
that is to look at those difficult
conversations and make sure you're
having the right conversations you know
don't go in this difficult conversation
like I hate pizza and we we go out to
Pizza all the time no that's not a
difficult conversation that's just a
disagreement order us
out all right let's not get czy make
sure you distinguish between what is a
difficult conversation and what is just
a
disagreement on a topic or an idea um
that there is a slight difference
between the two and just make sure that
you're open to the discussion if you're
not or you're not in the right frame of
mind say okay I hear you can you give me
maybe 30 minutes to put aside what I'm
currently working on or what's stuck in
my head and then let's have that talk
sometimes it's like right now is not the
right to on but you do want to make sure
you schedule that time and have that
conversation yeah don't let it Fester
but sometimes like right now
particularly if
you're like Michael said like if it's a
divorce conversation then probably you
should like cool your heels for a little
bit you know there's things like that
there is like I'll throw one other thing
out there when I was a hockey coach even
early on one the things a lot of the
coaches said and I think even soccer a
lot of the youth coaches in particular
had a 24-hour Rule and it was basically
like with the when they're talking to
the
parents if you don't like how I coached
or if you don't if you've got a
complaint about a game or a PR a
practice or whatever about your kid that
you want to talk to me about give it 24
hours before you talk to me because a
lot of times both particularly like that
that's a good example of like you come
out of a game especially if it's a loss
and the parents are because their kid
wasn't played enough and you're a coach
and you're ticked cuz your team lost
because maybe they weren't playing hard
enough or maybe that parents kid sucked
that day and that's why they didn't play
enough you're both both parties are
emotional it is raw and it is fresh and
it is good to like spend a little time
and then come back to it later now it
doesn't hurt to say we need to have a
conversation about this we will talk
about it later because sometimes I found
that we need to re like we will be
emotional too often and we need at some
point say we need to talk about the fact
that we are always super emotional after
this thing and that's just not cool so
there's something we need to figure out
but that's like Take It Outside of the
emotional you know scope the emotional
bubble so that you can have an actual
conversation about it and actually
figure out how to solve a problem as
opposed to just blow up the problem I'm
going to solve your problem about not
having enough time and we're going to
wrap wrap this one up I want to thank
you so much for spending some time with
us for what you've invested with us I do
love to hear just any feedback is
awesome even like the simplest feedback
is really you know appreciated and
particular if it's anything that is a
recommendation or suggestion we really
really really love that because it helps
us help you it helps us become better
podcasters it helps develop and or be a
site that is useful to our our community
which is you you or why we are here so
thank you so much for your time for your
investment and we will talk to you next
time
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