Detailed Notes
Most developers think their biggest career problems are technical.
They’re not.
In this episode of the Building Better Developers Podcast (Season 27: Forward Motion), we talk with coach Kim Miller-Hershon about the developer mindset shift that helps engineers break patterns, communicate clearly, and finally make forward progress in their careers.
You’ll learn: • Why repeating behavior patterns keeps developers stuck • Why selling isn’t what developers think it is • A simple communication technique that prevents misunderstandings • How choosing the right work accelerates career growth • Why success comes from direction, not speed
If you’ve ever felt stuck in your career despite improving your technical skills, this episode explains why — and what to do about it.
⸻
About the Guest
Kim Miller-Hershon is a business coach who helps professionals improve communication, clarity, and confidence so they can move forward in their careers and leadership roles.
Follow Kim Miller-Hershon Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimmhsf/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmillerhershon/ Website: https://kimmillerhershon.com/
⸻
Follow Develpreneur
🌐 https://develpreneur.com/ 📧 [email protected] ▶ https://www.youtube.com/@develpreneur 📘 https://facebook.com/Develpreneur 🐦 https://x.com/develpreneur 💼 https://www.linkedin.com/company/develpreneur/
⸻
Chapters
00:00 Why developers feel stuck 03:20 The hidden behavior patterns 10:15 Reframing selling 18:40 Communication mistakes teams make 26:05 Choosing the right work 34:20 The success myth 41:30 Practical next steps
⸻
#softwaredeveloper #careergrowth #softskills #leadership #programming #techcareer #personaldevelopment #developers #engineering #podcast
Transcript Text
Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of getting unstuck, moving forward, forward momentum. We are building better developers. We are the developer podcast. I am Rob Broadhead, one of the founders of develop entrepreneur, also the founder of RB Consulting where we help you take that reality check before you jump into a big project and ensure that you are got all the things in line so that you are actually ready for that project and let's make sure that it actually comes off as a success. Good thing and bad thing. Uh good thing is that uh I have recently been uh for lack of better term exploring some some interesting food things because there's just like I'm in a different area, different spices, different foods, different things that are out there and uh it is uh it has been a it's really been a good journey of finding some other stuff. I'm not truly a foodie, but I guess I'm not a not foodie either. Uh so that has turned out very well. Uh the bad thing is is that sometimes things are lost in translation. So uh all I will say is that just make sure if you're ever in situation where you are uh you're unclear about what you're ordering, about what you're purchasing, uh that you do get a little more clarity in it because I've had a couple things that were not exactly what we thought they were and it made for some interesting meals. That being said, we get to dive right into this is part two of Kim Miller Hers and it was a great part one. We're going to pick up right where we left off and continue this conversation with her. Uh hopefully you got a lot out of this and uh are ready to take notes for this one as well because she definitely has quite a few bits of information and I think some really great uh suggestions for getting unstuck. So here we go back to our conversation with Kim. when you were working with these developers and you gave them these tools, you know, you didn't trick them, but basically you like got them doing some things that they weren't normally comfortable with. Did you end up circling back and saying, "Hey, look, you just did the selling or you just did this thing that you thought was so icky to sort of, you say, hey, look, it's not as bad as you thought it was." >> Well, I got laid off before I got a chance to do that. H it's one of those cliffhers that will never get resolution. >> Yeah. >> So now do you end up doing that? Do you find that become something that uh does that something you took forward into coaching where you you sort of sometimes find a different approach for these things that people are like when they're resistant to it and say you know what I just that's not my thing. Sort of find that workaround. >> Absolutely right. And again, h how how much do you want it? Right? And you know what I think the other thing which you know I know people don't 100% love necessarily doing this but here's the other thing I do. Listen, I'm not a therapist. I'm not trained as a therapist. So I do not I don't pretend to be one ever. But what I do find is that if you are repeating patterns over and over again, that is about something, right? So it is listen, if you want to go back into your past or into your childhood and work through those issues and trauma, that's therapy, right? That is not what I do. But if you want to go from where you are and move forward, then a coach is a good person to do that. And often times a combination of a therapist and a coach can be very effective. I'm not saying you have to go to therapy in order to do coaching. But what I will say is is that if you keep doing the same stuff, if you keep putting the same roadblocks in front of yourself, you keep doing the same things, then it is really important to just understand like you that is that's my dad telling me I'm not good enough. Right? That's my dad saying, "Oh, you got an A. Why didn't you get an A+? You got an A minus. Shame on you." Right? Then just understanding like how you bring that into your current life, where it shows up for you and how you sabotage yourself can sometimes be very very helpful. Again, it just depends on what what is what is happening for you, right? Um, and oftentimes it's just a recognition, a mindfulness of, "Oh, yeah. Okay." Because here's the thing, Rob. At the end of the day, if you understand the story that you tell yourself about yourself and why you are in a particular place and you're like, "Yeah, no, I I'm actually going to choose something different." Right? Um, but if you're not willing to see it, it's pretty hard to make a different decision. >> Yeah. You can't get You're not going to find your way around the obstacle if you don't think it's an obstacle. You're just going to keep, you know, butting your head into it, basically. >> Exactly. Right. So, you know, we do a little, you know, a a little a little digging. Not not a lot, right? Cuz again, I'm not a therapist. I'm not trained as one. Again, if you really want to deal with trauma, you want to deal with that stuff, you got to go you got to go to therapy. That's not me. But if you want me to point out to you like, h, sounds like same old story, right? Sounds like you're replaying that relationship. Why don't we why don't we why don't we replace that story so that you can move forward and not sabotage yourself yet again? Oh, that's a great way to get unstuck is the Yeah, if you're still doing if you're doing the same thing you always did, you can't expect it to be any different really. The outcome's not going to suddenly just magically change on you. >> And I think it's just not as it's not as difficult and as painful, I think, as people think that it might be. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of time personal experience and plus other people that I've talked to, I think a lot of times we have these you that's that whole eat the frog concept is like there's these things that we have that are just oh it's too horrible, it's too bad, I can't deal with it, it's too big or whatever it is and then you do it and it was it wasn't that bad. It's, you know, I think that getting over that hump is key a lot of the times. And it goes back to just like baby steps. It's just like, okay, it's too big. Well, let's just do a little baby step in. Let's dip a toe in. Let's see what we can do. and the next thing you know, hey, the water's okay. Let's go swim. And and you're off and running. Now, one of the things that you and I had talked about a little bit is a that we share, and I'm just curious to talk a little further on this when we talk about things we're not comfortable with, but growing in a in a a company is is like self-promotion. And this, I think, is something that very much speaks to developers. It goes back to really um like the struggle you had with the engineers is that it's it's salesy and I know a lot of developers it really that's that is probably one of the biggest struggles they have. It's it it's sad but it almost feels like the uh you know the the genius that's inventing all you know inventive genius that has all these great inventions but they can't they're broke because they can never sell anything because they don't know how to promote things. Now, how do you what was sort of what you know maybe that maybe that was what was your you know come to Jesus moment or your point there basically where you're like you know what I've gota this is something I'm not comfortable with I need to either you know I need to either solve the problem or I need to find somebody that will solve the problem for me. >> All right. Well, I have really two I have really two things to say about that. First thing is you need to change your frame. Cuz what's really interesting is is that you might hate to sell things, but you love to buy things, right? Think about a a situation, the last time that you bought something where you had a like you were so excited and you had such a great experience, right? What made it great? probably part of that was your salesperson, right? And and and that interaction. I think the second thing that I would say is that every time I get shy or uncomfortable about something that feels like promoting myself, what I remember is it's not about me. It's about the value to the the client, the customer, the right. And so you are just the vehicle for them to get this fabulous thing that you've developed that's going to help them or delight them or whatever, you know, whatever it is that your thing does. And so it's a constant reframing of what this experience is. And by the way, when I was working with those engineers, so I was not trying to deceive them like like I said before, their livelihood depended on selling projects, right? So their families needed them to sell projects, right? and they couldn't do their technical expertise unless they had work to do. So, it's not it's not trying to pull the wool under over somebody's eyes. It's really about how do you frame this so that you can get the results that you want and need. That's a that is an excellent thought on I love the the flipping it and thinking about it like it I guess both of those I like both of those pieces is the the flipping it and the whole buying perspective but also the this goes back to gosh it goes back to the why again is basically like so what are you selling why is it that somebody wants your product what is it you know what is the pain you're alleviating or the pleasure they're going to get or whatever it is that comes out of that product and then focusing on that versus the hey it's me I'm selling my product cuz it's not you're not the one that's actually unless I guess you are the product but normally that's not our problem it's it's really we're selling a solution and even if we are the primary delivery >> we're still not the solution we are not what's being sold it is our service our intelligence our >> skills experience and those things >> right and the thing is is that you know because I am selling right I mean I'm I'm a coach right So, you know, I quote unquote sell coaching and then I I am selling myself like I am the product. But here's the thing, it at the end of the day, it's not about me. Like you have something that you need to solve, right? And so, you know, I am just, you know, along for the journey, right? To help you get what you want. And by the way, I also and I believe this like in every cell of my body. If I can help you achieve more by helping you communicate better, by helping you manage your time better, by helping you un like move your belief system at least maybe a little bit right more aligned with what you want. There is a butterfly effect of that, right? This is like a big mission, right? And so it it feels way bigger than I'm just the catalyst, right? Sometimes you just have to be the right, you know, you want to be the right cog in the right place of the wheel and then suddenly everything starts to go. And without that one piece, right, nothing moves, >> right? And you know the other thing that I would say to the developers, especially those that are selling something, I think sometimes we get way too fixated on like the one thing, the one person, the one company that needs to buy this, the one thing. And I think the other thing that um is a a really important piece of this is it's not personal. >> It's just not personal, right? And so keeping that perspective and keeping a robust pipeline, >> right? >> That's actually that is a great little segue into I guess one last thing as we're getting closer in here is like one of the things we talk about a lot is as service developers as service providers is that the technology is a huge area. Coaching is as well and one of the things we often talk about is like the idea how do you niche down? How do you take this big huge umbrella that you're under and find something that fits for you? And I'd like to ask you, how did you how did you go through that? You know, how did you figure out what your uh your coaching focus needed to be? Because obviously coaching is huge. You could be coaching football, you could be coaching professionals, you name it, >> right? I think it's a combination of I think what I'm good at and what I love because just like we talked about before sometimes you can be good at something that you don't actually want to continue doing, >> right? I think the other thing is too, and this is probably as um a developer and as somebody who is trying to get something off the ground, is learning to say no to the wrong to the wrong investor, to the to the wrong client, right? to have an a strong enough vision to understand that going and listen sometimes we don't know what we don't know right >> but if your gut is telling you that this is not the right move maybe it's not the right move >> yeah and I found that is uh and that's just I'll throw that is it's um a lot of times saying no to like that client especially when you're you're in that uh survival mode where you're like I just I got to get that project. I got to get that customer. But sometimes you being you're having to look ahead a little bit and go ah this is not the customer. This is not the project. If I do this it's going to and there have been companies and businesses that they the wrong thing sunk the thing you know the whole deal. There's >> you can go back to the.com boom and probably find a bunch of companies that like oh we're just going to get a Super Bowl commercial and then they weren't ready. They made a couple wrong choices. They grew too fast. Things like that. And that's where I think it's um I I love the idea of having like you know masterminds and networking groups and things like that where you've got some sort of a you know essentially a referral network for lack of anything else to give you that one extra thing to be like you know this is not a person for me but Kim would be exactly the person you need to talk to and it gives you that little bit of extra like okay now I can brush him off and and not feel like I'm just like saying no I'm just saying hey here's a better solution than me and Everybody wins. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I I think I've just been doing this long enough that I I know who a good client is for me. I think one thing I mean I understand like I have a I got a thing going on, right? Like I got I am like I'm very much I am who I am. So I think that is actually very helpful because I'm so clear about who I am and what I do. It really helps people decide that whether I am right for them or not. So at this point in my career, I I don't have to say no very often, right? like I feel like I I attract the people that I that are like my people and and so I I it works well these days, but it of course takes a long time to get there, >> right? >> Yeah. There's that that hill to climb that you got to figure out what is it that you know sometimes somebody especially the ones are a little bit disguised where it looks like a great customer, a great project and it's not. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my criteria for the most part is that you're willing to you're willing to move from where you are, right? You're not coachable. Even if you even if you feel miserable, you're not coachable unless you're willing to to move, right, to solve something, right? And so a couple of years ago, I actually I did get duped by somebody, >> somebody who said all the right things and then got in and then we started the coaching relationship and um he was more looking for evidence. Well, you know, I talked to my friend about this and he said, "I'm right." Right. Well, you may be right, but you're still going to end up losing your job if you don't change what you're doing. So, good for you. You get to be right and unemployed. >> But doesn't happen very often. Yeah. I mean, here's I think the other maybe here's the other thing that I would say and we keep going back to the why. I I feel like I am one of the luckiest entrepreneurs alive because because I have created my coaching practice to be at working with people who I truly like I am in their corner forever. Doesn't matter how long they work with me. I am like I am in your corner forever. And like I just I love what I do. truly truly am passionate about helping people love it. And so, you know, the sky's is the limit, right? And that's the that's the thing, especially Yeah. Especially when you love it because you don't have to worry about burning out. You have that energy. You're like every day you get up and and you're just happy to go do it again. Um, I think that's what everybody should be looking for, especially if I think especially if you're in that where you're in that that side hustle mode and you're trying to figure out what how do you want to like move out of where you are is make sure you're moving into something that you're moving towards something instead of just getting away from what you're in. >> Right. Exactly. You know, and listen, I guess the other thing is too is that, you know, it's very common that it's going to take you a couple of iterations, right, to get there. So, you know, it's it's important to know uh when to hold on and when to when to cut something and to not have a whole lot of I mean, listen, you're going to feel your feels, but then you got to you got to move on, right? Like, so what's the next idea and how are you going to make that happen, right? And so, um, look for good mentors out there, too, right? And not just the gazillion. All right, here's my You want to hear my last word on this, Rob? Here's I think the mistake that a lot of entrepreneurs, tech entrepreneurs make. They look at the um and it's I'm just going to say guys cuz really it's mostly guys that like had this small idea and it exploded and now they're gazillionaires, right? And that is that's the dream, right? And I think that um you know that is maybe 1% of everybody who succeeds but it's what the ideal is and maybe don't idolize those people quite so much. Right? Their past was their path. The other thing I would say is be be curious and be realistic about who you are and don't just bring in clones of yourself because you need diversity. And I I'm not talk, you know, listen where people are from and their orientations and all those things. That's a conversation for another day. But I think what you need is you need people who think differently than you, who solve problems differently than you, right? Um, and that's another mistake that a lot of startups make, which is they um bring in their friends and they have group think and then there you there's just a lot of holes that you can't see, which is which is a lot of the reason, Rob, why people hire you, right? because they they lose that big picture. >> Yeah, that is very much a Yeah, watch out because otherwise you you end up Yeah, group think is is quite a thing and especially in companies that uh you tech comp companies have got a lot of that where they sort of hire and you get success and you keep doing the same thing over and over and it doesn't necessarily help you out. It's just like cloning in general like they things you start to fall apart as you get deeper into that. >> Yeah. Just like our time management skills have just sort of gone away again. The time has flown right on by and so um obviously now people have got because you're you are you people have got a good feel of of who you are. What if they're sitting there saying gosh I would love to work with her or I definitely don't want to work with her. Whatever. Uh what's the best way for them to reach out? They're like this is not the person for me. Too much energy. I'm >> and I'm gonna tell her that. >> That's true. But I want to contact her and say, "I thought about you until I heard you on the podcast." What's the best way for them to reach out, but I didn't talk to you? >> Um, probably the easiest way is either go to my website, which is kimillerhan.com, or go to my LinkedIn. Um, I'm very very active on LinkedIn. So, uh, all my contact information, um, actually if you go to my website, you can book a you can book a 30-minute consultation. And the only thing I would say, I'm sure Rob, it's very similar to you, is that it's complimentary and it is an exploratory conversation to figure out if I might be the right person for you and if you are the right person for me. no obligation. You know, if it's right, we'll figure we'll figure it out. And if it's not, and just like you said, if it's not, um, and you need a referral to somebody else, I'll I'll help you find the right person. >> That is awesome because that's your why. So, thank you everybody for hanging out, for speaking with for listening to us talk for a while and hopefully you got as much out of this as I did because uh once again uh that's why we do these. We get so much out of these conversations and it is it's a different it is a diversity of thought. We get a different uh backgrounds and opinions and things like that that I think help quite a bit. Hopefully that has uh triggered a couple things if you're getting stuck somewhere, if you're struggling that you've got now some ideas of maybe where to go forward and how to change where you are so you can get into that future state that hopefully will be much much better where you are. As always, we appreciate you guys for all of you hanging out there with us. Thank you so much for spending some time and go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week and we will talk to you next time. Now, you ended up like giving a nice little bonus there right at the end. But for those that are still sticking around, what would be uh a parting thought that you have, especially considering uh developers now that have been sitting here for a little bit and think hearing about um you know, coaching and skills that maybe they need to grow and things like that. What would maybe be a parting thought uh for to maybe help them move forward or or get unstuck if they're struggling with something like that? Yes, I think because it's something actually that we we haven't talked about. I would say think about how clearly you can articulate what it is that you need from other people, right? And and here is the bonus. Just because you articulate it clearly does not mean that they understood it the way that you said it. So here is a very specific technique. Here's the tip. The tip is I say I need you to do XYZ. Right? It sounds so clear to me. And I say do you understand? And you say yes. and then you deliver um you know ABC to me. So what you want to say is just so that we're on the same page, tell me what you heard, you need them to repeat back to you either what the assignment is, what the outcome is, what their part of this is, whatever. You know, again, you have to contextualize it. But until they have said it and you have said it, you do not have agreement. >> There are there are gosh, that's a whole other episode. Basic whole cultures and situations I've been in where it's just like people are just Yeah, I get it. Sure. I heard it. >> Yep. Got it. All right, we'll get it done, you know. Yes. Yes. Any Or the other thing is like any questions? No questions. Okay, great. Everybody must understand. And that is that is often a faulty faulty assumption. There you go. >> Well, thank you so much for hanging out with us. Uh always had now a couple conversations with you and they've always been really fun. Uh it's always great to just sort of get a little get a little bit better of uh getting to know you a little bit more and some of your background and some of the things that you've worked on. Uh we are currently I think we're about a month ahead, something like that. So this will probably roll out end of February, beginning of March, something along those lines. As I said, it'll come out uh currently. We may change it. We're actually looking at some things. We may change it and do a uh but right now it's a Tuesday and Thursday release. So right before that Tuesday release comes out. I'll send you the links and probably for both of them and then uh Tuesday will become live and then Thursday will come live a couple days later. Feel free to share them out wherever you are whatever you'd like to do. >> 100% I agree for those that are that are watching too. You are very active on LinkedIn. I've we connected and I see you on a regular basis something from you. So, uh, definitely there's a lot of good stuff there. A great way to get a hold of you and just sort of see what you're about and and some of the things that are out there. Um, there actually a few your your team is great. There have been a few amusing things along the way as well. So, it's a it's fun to have you like show up on the feed and some of the the topics that you cover and things you're promoting. So, um, that'll do it. We'll wrap this one up and let you get back to your day. If there's anything I can do for you anywhere, just let me know. You know how to reach out if you have any questions about any of this. And otherwise, have a good uh rest of the week and we'll catch you again soon. >> All right. Thank you. >> Have a good one, Kim. Byebye.
Transcript Segments
Well, hello and welcome back. We are
continuing our season of getting
unstuck, moving forward, forward
momentum. We are building better
developers. We are the developer
podcast. I am Rob Broadhead, one of the
founders of develop entrepreneur, also
the founder of RB Consulting where we
help you take that reality check before
you jump into a big project and ensure
that you are got all the things in line
so that you are actually ready for that
project and let's make sure that it
actually comes off as a success. Good
thing and bad thing. Uh good thing is
that uh I have recently been uh for lack
of better term exploring some some
interesting food things because there's
just like I'm in a different area,
different spices, different foods,
different things that are out there and
uh it is uh it has been a it's really
been a good journey of finding some
other stuff. I'm not truly a foodie, but
I guess I'm not a not foodie either. Uh
so that has turned out very well. Uh the
bad thing is is that sometimes things
are lost in translation. So uh all I
will say is that just make sure if
you're ever in situation where you are
uh you're unclear about what you're
ordering, about what you're purchasing,
uh that you do get a little more clarity
in it because I've had a couple things
that were not exactly what we thought
they were and it made for some
interesting meals. That being said, we
get to dive right into this is part two
of Kim Miller Hers and it was a great
part one. We're going to pick up right
where we left off and continue this
conversation with her. Uh hopefully you
got a lot out of this and uh are ready
to take notes for this one as well
because she definitely has quite a few
bits of information and I think some
really great uh suggestions for getting
unstuck. So here we go back to our
conversation with Kim.
when you were working with these
developers and you gave them these
tools, you know, you didn't trick them,
but basically you like got them doing
some things that they weren't normally
comfortable with. Did you end up
circling back and saying, "Hey, look,
you just did the selling or you just did
this thing that you thought was so icky
to sort of, you say, hey, look, it's not
as bad as you thought it was."
>> Well, I got laid off before I got a
chance to do that.
H it's one of those cliffhers that will
never get resolution.
>> Yeah.
>> So now do you end up doing that? Do you
find that become something that uh does
that something you took forward into
coaching where you you sort of sometimes
find a different approach for these
things that people are like when they're
resistant to it and say you know what I
just that's not my thing. Sort of find
that workaround.
>> Absolutely right. And again, h how how
much do you want it?
Right? And you know what I think the
other thing which you know I know people
don't 100% love necessarily doing this
but here's the other thing I do. Listen,
I'm not a therapist. I'm not trained as
a therapist. So I do not I don't pretend
to be one ever. But what I do find is
that if you are repeating patterns over
and over again, that is about something,
right? So it is listen, if you want to
go back into your past or into your
childhood and work through those issues
and trauma, that's therapy, right? That
is not what I do. But
if you want to go from where you are and
move forward,
then a coach is a good person to do
that. And often times a combination of a
therapist and a coach can be very
effective. I'm not saying you have to go
to therapy in order to do coaching. But
what I will say is is that if you keep
doing the same stuff, if you keep
putting the same roadblocks in front of
yourself, you keep doing the same
things, then it is really important to
just understand
like you that is that's my dad telling
me I'm not good enough. Right? That's my
dad saying, "Oh, you got an A. Why
didn't you get an A+? You got an A
minus. Shame on you." Right? Then just
understanding like how you bring that
into your current life, where it shows
up for you and how you sabotage yourself
can sometimes be very very helpful.
Again, it just depends on
what what is what is happening for you,
right?
Um, and oftentimes it's just a
recognition, a mindfulness of, "Oh,
yeah. Okay." Because here's the thing,
Rob. At the end of the day, if you
understand the story that you tell
yourself about yourself and why you are
in a particular place and you're like,
"Yeah, no, I I'm actually going to
choose something different." Right?
Um, but if you're not willing to see it,
it's pretty hard to make a different
decision.
>> Yeah. You can't get You're not going to
find your way around the obstacle if you
don't think it's an obstacle. You're
just going to keep, you know, butting
your head into it, basically.
>> Exactly. Right. So, you know, we do a
little, you know, a a little a little
digging. Not not a lot, right? Cuz
again, I'm not a therapist. I'm not
trained as one. Again, if you really
want to deal with trauma, you want to
deal with that stuff, you got to go you
got to go to therapy. That's not me. But
if you want me to point out to you like,
h, sounds like same old story, right?
Sounds like you're replaying that
relationship. Why don't we why don't we
why don't we replace that story so that
you can move forward and not sabotage
yourself yet again?
Oh, that's a great way to get unstuck is
the Yeah, if you're still doing if
you're doing the same thing you always
did, you can't expect it to be any
different really. The outcome's not
going to suddenly just magically change
on you.
>> And I think it's just not as it's not as
difficult and as painful, I think, as
people think that it might be.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of time
personal experience and plus other
people that I've talked to, I think a
lot of times we have these you that's
that whole eat the frog concept is like
there's these things that we have that
are just oh it's too horrible, it's too
bad, I can't deal with it, it's too big
or whatever it is and then you do it and
it was it wasn't that bad. It's, you
know, I think that getting over that
hump is key a lot of the times. And it
goes back to just like baby steps. It's
just like, okay, it's too big. Well,
let's just do a little baby step in.
Let's dip a toe in. Let's see what we
can do. and the next thing you know,
hey, the water's okay. Let's go swim.
And and you're off and running.
Now, one of the things that you and I
had talked about a little bit is a that
we share, and I'm just curious to talk a
little further on this when we talk
about things we're not comfortable with,
but growing in a in a a company is is
like self-promotion. And this, I think,
is something that very much speaks to
developers. It goes back to really um
like the struggle you had with the
engineers is that it's it's salesy and I
know a lot of developers it really
that's that is probably one of the
biggest struggles they have. It's it
it's sad but it almost feels like the uh
you know the the genius that's inventing
all you know inventive genius that has
all these great inventions but they
can't they're broke because they can
never sell anything because they don't
know how to promote things. Now, how do
you what was sort of what you know maybe
that maybe that was what was your you
know come to Jesus moment or your point
there basically where you're like you
know what I've gota this is something
I'm not comfortable with I need to
either you know I need to either solve
the problem or I need to find somebody
that will solve the problem for me.
>> All right. Well, I have really two I
have really two
things to say about that. First thing is
you need to change your frame. Cuz
what's really interesting is is that you
might hate to sell things, but you love
to buy things,
right? Think about a a situation, the
last time that you bought something
where you had a like you were so excited
and you had such a great experience,
right? What made it great?
probably part of that was your
salesperson,
right? And and and that interaction.
I think the second thing that I would
say is that every time I get
shy or uncomfortable
about something that feels like
promoting myself,
what I remember is it's not about me.
It's about
the value
to the the client, the customer, the
right. And so you are just the vehicle
for them to get this fabulous thing that
you've developed that's going to help
them or delight them or whatever, you
know, whatever it is that your thing
does. And so it's a constant reframing
of what this
experience is. And by the way, when I
was working with those engineers, so I
was not trying to deceive them like like
I said before, their livelihood depended
on selling projects, right? So their
families needed them to sell projects,
right? and they couldn't do their
technical expertise unless they had work
to do. So,
it's not
it's not trying to pull the wool under
over somebody's eyes. It's really about
how do you frame this so that you can
get the results that you want and need.
That's a that is an excellent thought on
I love the the flipping it and thinking
about it like it I guess both of those I
like both of those pieces is the the
flipping it and the whole buying
perspective but also the this goes back
to gosh it goes back to the why again is
basically like so what are you selling
why is it that somebody wants your
product what is it you know what is the
pain you're alleviating or the pleasure
they're going to get or whatever it is
that comes out of that product and then
focusing on that versus the hey it's me
I'm selling my product cuz it's not
you're not the one that's actually
unless I guess you are the product but
normally that's not our problem it's
it's really we're selling a solution and
even if we are the primary delivery
>> we're still not the solution we are not
what's being sold it is our service our
intelligence our
>> skills experience and those things
>> right and the thing is is that you know
because I am selling right I mean I'm
I'm a coach right So, you know, I quote
unquote sell coaching and then I I am
selling myself like I am the product.
But here's the thing, it at the end of
the day, it's not about me. Like you
have something that you need to solve,
right? And so, you know, I am just,
you know, along for the journey, right?
To help you get what you want. And by
the way, I also and I believe this like
in every cell of my body. If I can help
you
achieve more by helping you communicate
better, by helping you manage your time
better, by helping you un like move your
belief system at least maybe a little
bit right more aligned with what you
want. There is a butterfly effect of
that, right? This is like a big mission,
right? And so it it
feels way bigger than I'm just the
catalyst,
right?
Sometimes you just have to be the right,
you know, you want to be the right cog
in the right place of the wheel and then
suddenly everything starts to go. And
without that one piece, right, nothing
moves,
>> right? And you know the other thing that
I would say to the developers,
especially those that are selling
something, I think sometimes we get way
too fixated on like the one thing, the
one person, the one company that needs
to buy this, the one thing. And I think
the other thing that um is a a really
important piece of this is it's not
personal.
>> It's just not personal, right? And so
keeping that perspective
and keeping a robust pipeline,
>> right?
>> That's actually that is a great little
segue into I guess one last thing as
we're getting closer in here is like one
of the things we talk about a lot is as
service developers as service providers
is that the technology is a huge area.
Coaching is as well and one of the
things we often talk about is like the
idea how do you niche down? How do you
take this big huge umbrella that you're
under and find something that fits for
you? And I'd like to ask you, how did
you how did you go through that? You
know, how did you figure out what your
uh your coaching focus needed to be?
Because obviously coaching is huge. You
could be coaching football, you could be
coaching professionals, you name it,
>> right? I think it's a combination of
I think what I'm good at
and what I love because just like we
talked about before sometimes you can be
good at something that you don't
actually want to continue doing,
>> right? I think the other thing is too,
and this is probably as
um a developer and as somebody who is
trying to get something off the ground,
is learning to say no to the wrong to
the wrong investor, to the to the wrong
client, right? to have an a strong
enough vision to understand that going
and listen sometimes we don't know what
we don't know right
>> but if your gut is telling you that this
is not the right move
maybe it's not the right move
>> yeah and I found that is uh and that's
just I'll throw that is it's um a lot of
times saying no to like that client
especially when you're you're in that uh
survival mode where you're like I just I
got to get that project. I got to get
that customer. But sometimes you being
you're having to look ahead a little bit
and go ah this is not the customer. This
is not the project. If I do this it's
going to and there have been companies
and businesses that they the wrong thing
sunk the thing you know the whole deal.
There's
>> you can go back to the.com boom and
probably find a bunch of companies that
like oh we're just going to get a Super
Bowl commercial and then they weren't
ready. They made a couple wrong choices.
They grew too fast. Things like that.
And that's where I think it's um I I
love the idea of having like you know
masterminds and networking groups and
things like that where you've got some
sort of a you know essentially a
referral network for lack of anything
else to give you that one extra thing to
be like you know this is not a person
for me but Kim would be exactly the
person you need to talk to and it gives
you that little bit of extra like okay
now I can brush him off and and not feel
like I'm just like saying no I'm just
saying hey here's a better solution than
me and Everybody wins.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. I I think I've just
been doing this long enough that I I
know who a good client is for me. I
think one thing I mean I understand like
I have a I got a thing going on, right?
Like I got I am like I'm very much I am
who I am. So I think that is actually
very helpful because I'm so clear about
who I am and what I do. It really helps
people decide
that whether I am right for them or not.
So at this point in my career, I I don't
have to say no very often, right? like I
feel like I I attract the people that I
that are like my people
and and so I I it works well these days,
but it of course takes a long time to
get there,
>> right?
>> Yeah. There's that that hill to climb
that you got to figure out what is it
that you know sometimes somebody
especially the ones are a little bit
disguised where it looks like a great
customer, a great project and it's not.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my criteria for the
most part is that you're willing to
you're willing to move from where you
are, right? You're not coachable. Even
if you even if you feel miserable,
you're not coachable unless you're
willing to
to move, right, to solve something,
right? And so a couple of years ago, I
actually I did get duped by somebody,
>> somebody who said all the right things
and then got in and then we started the
coaching relationship and um he was more
looking for evidence.
Well, you know, I talked to my friend
about this and he said, "I'm right."
Right. Well, you may be right, but
you're still going to end up losing your
job if you don't change what you're
doing. So, good for you. You get to be
right and unemployed.
>> But
doesn't happen very often. Yeah. I mean,
here's I think the other maybe here's
the other thing that I would say and we
keep going back to the why.
I I feel like I am one of the luckiest
entrepreneurs alive because because I
have created my coaching practice to be
at working with people who I truly like
I am in their corner forever. Doesn't
matter how long they work with me. I am
like I am in your corner forever. And
like I just I love what I do. truly
truly am passionate about helping people
love it. And so,
you know, the sky's is the limit, right?
And that's the that's the thing,
especially Yeah. Especially when you
love it because you don't have to worry
about burning out. You have that energy.
You're like every day you get up and and
you're just happy to go do it again. Um,
I think that's what everybody should be
looking for, especially if I think
especially if you're in that where
you're in that that side hustle mode and
you're trying to figure out what how do
you want to like move out of where you
are is make sure you're moving into
something that you're moving towards
something instead of just getting away
from what you're in.
>> Right. Exactly. You know, and listen, I
guess the other thing is too is that,
you know, it's very common that it's
going to take you a couple of
iterations,
right, to get there. So, you know, it's
it's important to know uh when to hold
on and when to when to cut something and
to not have a whole lot of I mean,
listen, you're going to feel your feels,
but then you got to you got to move on,
right? Like, so what's the next idea and
how are you going to make that happen,
right? And so, um, look for good mentors
out there, too, right? And not just the
gazillion. All right, here's my You want
to hear my last word on this, Rob?
Here's I think the mistake that a lot of
entrepreneurs, tech entrepreneurs make.
They look at the um and it's I'm just
going to say guys cuz really it's mostly
guys that like had this small idea and
it exploded and now they're
gazillionaires, right? And that is
that's the dream, right? And I think
that um
you know that is maybe 1%
of
everybody who succeeds
but it's what the ideal is and
maybe
don't idolize
those people quite so much. Right? Their
past was their path. The other thing I
would say is be
be curious and be realistic about who
you are
and
don't just bring in clones of yourself
because you need diversity. And I I'm
not talk, you know, listen
where people are from and their
orientations and all those things.
That's a conversation for another day.
But I think what you need is you need
people who think differently than you,
who solve problems differently than you,
right? Um, and that's another mistake
that a lot of startups make, which is
they um bring in their friends and they
have group think and then there you
there's just a lot of holes that you
can't see, which is which is a lot of
the reason, Rob, why people hire you,
right? because they they lose that big
picture.
>> Yeah, that is very much a Yeah, watch
out because otherwise you you end up
Yeah, group think is is quite a thing
and especially in companies that uh you
tech comp companies have got a lot of
that where they sort of hire and you get
success and you keep doing the same
thing over and over and it doesn't
necessarily help you out. It's just like
cloning in general like they things you
start to fall apart as you get deeper
into that.
>> Yeah. Just like our time management
skills have just sort of gone away
again. The time has flown right on by
and so um obviously now people have got
because you're you are you people have
got a good feel of of who you are. What
if they're sitting there saying gosh I
would love to work with her or I
definitely don't want to work with her.
Whatever. Uh what's the best way for
them to reach out? They're like this is
not the person for me. Too much energy.
I'm
>> and I'm gonna tell her that.
>> That's true. But I want to contact her
and say, "I thought about you until I
heard you on the podcast." What's the
best way for them to reach out, but I
didn't talk to you?
>> Um, probably the easiest way is either
go to my website, which is
kimillerhan.com,
or go to my LinkedIn. Um, I'm very very
active on LinkedIn. So, uh, all my
contact information, um, actually if you
go to my website, you can book a you can
book a 30-minute consultation. And the
only thing I would say, I'm sure Rob,
it's very similar to you, is that it's
complimentary
and it is an exploratory conversation to
figure out if I might be the right
person for you and if you are the right
person for me. no obligation.
You know, if it's right, we'll figure
we'll figure it out. And if it's not,
and just like you said, if it's not, um,
and you need a referral to somebody
else, I'll I'll help you find the right
person.
>> That is awesome because that's your why.
So, thank you everybody for hanging out,
for speaking with for listening to us
talk for a while and hopefully you got
as much out of this as I did because uh
once again uh that's why we do these. We
get so much out of these conversations
and it is it's a different it is a
diversity of thought. We get a different
uh backgrounds and opinions and things
like that that I think help quite a bit.
Hopefully that has uh triggered a couple
things if you're getting stuck
somewhere, if you're struggling that
you've got now some ideas of maybe where
to go forward and how to change where
you are so you can get into that future
state that hopefully will be much much
better where you are. As always, we
appreciate you guys for all of you
hanging out there with us. Thank you so
much for spending some time and go out
there and have yourself a great day, a
great week and we will talk to you next
time.
Now, you ended up like giving a nice
little bonus there right at the end. But
for those that are still sticking
around, what would be uh a parting
thought that you have, especially
considering uh developers now that have
been sitting here for a little bit and
think hearing about um you know,
coaching and skills that maybe they need
to grow and things like that. What would
maybe be a parting thought uh for to
maybe help them move forward or or get
unstuck if they're struggling with
something like that?
Yes, I think because it's something
actually that we we haven't talked
about. I would say think about how
clearly
you can articulate
what it is that you need from other
people,
right? And and here is the bonus. Just
because you articulate it clearly
does not mean that they understood it
the way that you said it. So here is a
very specific technique. Here's the tip.
The tip is I say
I need you to do XYZ.
Right? It sounds so clear to me. And I
say do you understand? And you say yes.
and then you deliver um you know ABC to
me. So
what you want to say is just so that
we're on the same page,
tell me what you heard,
you need them to repeat back to you
either what the assignment is, what the
outcome is, what their part of this is,
whatever. You know, again, you have to
contextualize it. But until they have
said it and you have said it, you do not
have agreement.
>> There are there are gosh, that's a whole
other episode. Basic whole cultures and
situations I've been in where it's just
like people are just Yeah, I get it.
Sure. I heard it.
>> Yep. Got it. All right, we'll get it
done, you know. Yes. Yes. Any Or the
other thing is like any questions? No
questions. Okay, great. Everybody must
understand. And that is that is often a
faulty faulty assumption. There you go.
>> Well, thank you so much for hanging out
with us. Uh always had now a couple
conversations with you and they've
always been really fun. Uh it's always
great to just sort of get a little get a
little bit better of uh getting to know
you a little bit more and some of your
background and some of the things that
you've worked on. Uh we are currently I
think we're about a month ahead,
something like that. So this will
probably roll out end of February,
beginning of March, something along
those lines. As I said, it'll come out
uh currently. We may change it. We're
actually looking at some things. We may
change it and do a uh but right now it's
a Tuesday and Thursday release. So right
before that Tuesday release comes out.
I'll send you the links and probably for
both of them and then uh Tuesday will
become live and then Thursday will come
live a couple days later. Feel free to
share them out wherever you are whatever
you'd like to do.
>> 100% I agree for those that are that are
watching too. You are very active on
LinkedIn. I've we connected and I see
you on a regular basis something from
you. So, uh, definitely there's a lot of
good stuff there. A great way to get a
hold of you and just sort of see what
you're about and and some of the things
that are out there. Um, there actually a
few your your team is great. There have
been a few amusing things along the way
as well. So, it's a it's fun to have you
like show up on the feed and some of the
the topics that you cover and things
you're promoting. So, um, that'll do it.
We'll wrap this one up and let you get
back to your day. If there's anything I
can do for you anywhere, just let me
know. You know how to reach out if you
have any questions about any of this.
And otherwise, have a good uh rest of
the week and we'll catch you again soon.
>> All right. Thank you.
>> Have a good one, Kim. Byebye.