Detailed Notes
In this episode of Building Better Developers, hosts Rob Broadhead and Michael Meloche talk with Wes Towers, founder of Uplift 360, about niching for developers — and how finding focus helps you stand out, build trust, and grow faster.
Wes shares how he turned a small web design business into a thriving digital agency serving builders and trades across Australia. Learn how niching creates clarity, why authenticity beats automation, and how AI can support your processes without diluting your brand.
💡 In this episode: • Why niching for developers builds focus and credibility • Turning client frustrations into your strongest differentiators • How AI can streamline your SOPs without losing the human touch • Building trust online in an age of privacy fatigue • Why website maintenance matters for long-term success
🎧 Listen to more episodes and read our blogs: https://develpreneur.com/niching-for-developers-wes-towers-part-1/ 🌐 Learn more about Wes: https://uplift360.com.au
📌 Connect with Us: * [email protected] * https://develpreneur.com/ * https://www.youtube.com/@develpreneur * https://facebook.com/Develpreneur * https://x.com/develpreneur * https://www.linkedin.com/company/develpreneur/
#NichingForDevelopers #BuildingBetterDevelopers #WesTowers #WebDevelopment #AIMarketing #SEO #BusinessGrowth #Uplift360
Transcript Text
[music] [music] [music] [music] Hey Rob, how are you? >> Pretty good. How you doing? >> Very well, thanks. Thanks for making time today. >> Oh, thank you. Second See if I can get this get this to a point. There we go. So I can see a little better. Looks a little better there. We will have um give you a this so I can see a little better and work my keyboard. Um we got a I've got a co-host. Michael will be joining us momentarily. Uh just to give you sort of a heads up, we will do >> uh it'll basically be two episodes. We always do these like a two-parter. So we'll >> uh but what we'll do is we'll start with um we'll do some introductions of ourselves. We'll toss it over to you because I like to just allow you to introduce yourself um and then we will dive in and just sort of we keep it really >> sort of conversational. Um you know, we just sort of jump around on topics. Uh you've got a a great background. Um, no pressure. We've never had a bad guest. So, you know, I'm assuming >> hopefully I'm not the first. [laughter] >> I am not expecting you be the the first one to boris because there's there's actually a couple comp uh topics I think we'll get into here that are um the some of these hot topics and things like that everybody wants to hear about and it'll be cool to have a little bit of discussion around it. >> Yeah. Cool. Cool. your background is such that um I'm sure wherever we go you'll you'll be more than happy to dive in with plenty of um opinions and >> yeah so we'll we'll run through it. We'll just we'll do one start of a show um and then we'll just carry all the way through and then when we wrap up with you then we'll you know record the rest of our stuff separately. So that'll sort of you know make the most of the time that we've got with you. Um, you'll get to see a little bit of our our up, but then from there it'll just be like we're gonna kick right into it. So, um, Michael, >> join us now. Uh, give me a second. >> Hey, Michael. >> Shut a door and we'll get going. >> Hey, how's it going? Sorry, I was in the wrong Zoom call. >> That's all right. It's h can be difficult uh meeting to meeting, isn't it? Uh, different tools and so on. >> So, just quick. >> All right, let's see. So, let me get this going. >> And so, roughly, how how long were you recording for? >> Uh, it'll be roughly about an hour. >> Yeah. Cool. >> So, okay. So, you got like a hard stop or anything, then let us know. But we'll try to get you get you out roughly, you know, 57 minutes from now or so. >> Um, unless we just really get in some good conversation, then we may have to like cut ourselves off. All right. Um, so, and this is uh this is video as well. I guess I should be clear about that if we haven't already been. So, we do uh typically do is we've got the the YouTube side, the video side that has like we pick it up pretty much as we're starting. So, they get a little bit of the pre-show and the post show. Um, and then we'll, you know, so we'll have uh simal cast, I guess, we'll do the audio. So, we'll do a sort of a step into the audio set part in just a second, even though obviously the video will still be going. And uh here we go. Any questions, Michael, before we dive in? I know you came in a few seconds late. No, I'm good. >> Alrighty then. So, we'll go with our traditional three. Do Uno. Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of building better foundations. We are the building better developers podcast, also known as developer or vice versa, depending on how you know us and where you first found us. Today, we're going to continue doing some interviews. Uh we're going to we've mixed this up in our foundational uh season. uh you'll find out uh I think pretty much if we don't directly talk about it what some of the foundational pimp principles are we're going to hit on today. Uh before we get into that because I'm going to allow him to introduce himself because he will do it so much better than me. I'll first introduce myself. My name is Rob Broadhead, one of the founders of developer, also the founder of RB Consulting where we are uh what some people call a boutique consulting company where we help you as a business owner figure out where you're at, how to leverage technology, create a road map and then implement that road map. so that you can leverage your technology for success into the future. You check us out at rb-sns.com. We have got product, services, technology assessments, and all kinds of goodness there. Good thing, bad thing that has run into me recently. Uh good thing and bad thing. This I guess the the bad thing one would say is that I have had like in my family, I've had multiple car like dings lately. We've had like scratches. We had a car that got hit and then it got hit again like rear ended and then it got totaled and then a little later got total got hit and not totaled again but you know hit again. So the bad news is we like people are coming after us on the road. The good news is it's like the cars are already dinged up so the damage has been done. Might as well just bring it on at this point. We can't get much worse than that. Uh at right along those lines we can't get any worse in my introduction but we're going to see if Michael will do so. Go ahead and introduce yourself. Hey everyone, my name is Michael Malashsh. I'm one of the co-founders of Building Better Developers, also known as Developer. I'm also the owner of Envision QA, where we help businesses take back control with custom software that's built around their needs, not the other way around. Our focus is simple, great service, smart solutions, and rockolid quality. We build tools that replace frustrating systems, streamline operations, and are fully tested to work right the first time. Check us out at Envision QA where we combine development and quality assurance to give you software you can trust. Uh good thing, bad thing. Uh I'll start out with the bad thing. Uh kids called last week, their HVAC system went out. You know, nice cold day, they turn on the heat, boom, it goes out. Uh good thing they had a fireplace. All I had to do is go collect all the down uh trees that were in the yard. So, they had a nice fire going for a couple days till that was fixed. And as I alluded to at the beginning there, uh, we have a guest today and I'm going to let our guest West Towers introduce himself. Go for it, Wes. >> Yeah. Firstly, thank you, Rob and and Michael for hosting me on on the show today. It's a real privilege to be speaking with you with you both. So, I'm Wes from Uplift 360. We're down here in Australia. You can probably pick up my accent um in Melbourne, Australia. And so, we're a website development agency. So we do websites, we do SEO, we're calling it search everywhere optimization uh with AI and so on large language models. So we're working a lot in that space and we're really dialed into a particular niche being the construction uh and trades related industry. So we serve them with their websites typically WordPress websites and uh go from there. And that's uh that's where we're going to I'm going to dive right into that is I I've I've actually recently had several conversations with peoples that work people that work in the uh various services provided to trades industries and we've talked about how they're they are sort of unique particularly uh when you deal about deal with technology because I think a lot of people have the uh the perspective that the trades are are not technical. They really don't they're not they're like they're just like doers. They go out, they hammer nails, they create things, they fix pipes and stuff like that, but they're not really technology savvy. Uh, but I found that actually most of them very much are. Uh, but they're also in it's it's actually a sort of a unique challenge because they also are in an one of these industries where there's a lot of noise. If you're a like if you're a plumber, there's a lot of plumbers out and there's really it's really hard to distinguish yourself. And that's where I really wanna I think I want to focus a little bit today on some of our discussions is because we fall in the same thing from a technology point. If you're building software, if you're providing IT consulting services of some sort, if that's your side hustle or your main job, it's a crowded industry. There's a a lot of noise. And so I think we'll start with um you know, thinking about that. And obviously, you know, you've already mentioned, you know, WordPress and it sounds like it's so it's sort of a you're not doing anything that's like, you know, crazy or insane. It's really it's like let's let's get to the basics and how do we as a customer if I come to you as a construction company or something like that? How do you start that conversation of finding a way to to be heard among the no amongst the noise? >> Yeah. Well, firstly, you're right. It it is quite a a different scenario dealing with founder uh construction companies, trades people um because they are practical people. They like, you know, working with their hands, dealing with tools and machinery and they're fantastic at what they do, pragmatic, practical, down to earth people. And I love the clients we serve. Uh but they're not often times they're not very techsavvy. So they're the smaller kind of businesses we're working with. Small, medium. Once it gets to the the next step up, it's a company where they'll have a marketing team, for example, or maybe they've just got a marketing person or they've got a um someone at least looking after that for them. It's not the founder who's uh who's who's doing everything. So, that's they're different scenarios and you the the one key thing working with any of these people really is to remember that they don't care so much about the process and the technology and so on. They care about the outcome. So, it's so easy for me and everybody um particularly working with the people we're working with um to to get bogged down with the the tech and explaining to them the amazing things we're doing, but realistically, what are they what are they wanting? They're wanting a website that's going to bring them more business. Um that's effectively what they're doing. And they're wanting the message to be clear and compelling and from a marketing standpoint for their message to be uh heard and and to to sing it from the rooftops. So, so those are the sorts of things that we that we speak about with with the clients. And so, um, I have a team of developers now, so I don't even touch the development side of things. Uh, back in the day, I mean, I'm not a full full uh developer like you guys, but just did uh WordPress websites for many many years now. The business has been over 20 years. Uh, but now uh and particularly with the the tech advancements and things changing so fast, I barely touched the technical aspect. I mean, the basic WordPress. Yeah. Cool. I can jump in. Some of the sites are more sophisticated than that. So, I just trust the team to do it um in that in that way. So, every every niche has its own uh benefits and challenges. But I think niching is the real secret to success moving forward. As the technology becomes easier and easier, we'll need less of technicians for basic tasks. will always need highle people to do highlevel things but the basics will be often taken care of me for example basic WordPress websites that's incredibly vulnerable to to software um taking over that whole field so I've got to bring a new level of expertise and that's why niching is really important because I really get to understand who they are how to communicate how to draw out of them their core messages so we can uh express that online through multiple avenues >> now do you end up uh because you're in a you sort of stay in the play in the same industry when you play in that niche. Are you and this is particularly uh always been interesting to me because you're in advertising, you're in marketing. That's part of what you're doing is you're trying to distinguish, you know, customers from each other, you know, from the the noise, >> but then also now you're within that niche. So, how do how do you uh I guess how do you work the the things that are the commonalities from customer to customer and saying that hey, we understand you while also being able to say we're going to understand how to separate you from the competition so that we can create a unique uh message. >> Yeah, that's that's a brilliant point, Rob. So it it it certainly streamlines things when we kind of understand their industry as a whole, but we don't know the nuance of precisely what they do and the the specifics of what they do and how they do it differently and why they're better than everyone else effectively is the core thing um to draw out of them. And so sometimes the founders are kind of short and they they don't spend a lot of time wanting to talk. But what we have found is they will um open up in a venting session. So they'll they'll easily complain about all their competitors. Now this is a behind closed doors discussion, but I just give them the permission really and and even draw it out of them all the complaints about all their competitors and what they're doing wrong and what's wrong with the industry and what everyone complains about. These are I call it the shadow side of people. So the the dark side once we sort of understand that and they that's so easy to draw out of people once you give them permission to complain. It's like a cathartic kind of experience for them. But once we understand all of that, we can reverse it. So what's the opposite to all of these things? Because that's who they are. And that's what we've got to highlight from a marketing perspective, from a positive frame. You would never want to, you know, bag your competitors online and and say it from that negative connotation. But there's always the inverse, the opposite, which is the the positive thing, which we can draw out and and highlight those things. And realistically, they're the most important things to feature in all your marketing material, the points of difference, because most buyers will have a rough idea of the whole industry. Uh, but those nuanced uh differences are are really compelling. That's actually it's really interesting because you also with that you you figure out what they are uh what they're emotional about what they they're fired up about what they're excited about is because you you're going to find out like this is probably this is why they went into that business that is what gets them up in the morning because they're annoyed with you know what the competition does. And so that's yeah that's actually brilliant that gives them that gives you not only like that flip side of the positive of this is what they provide but also something that obviously they're you know they're they're pumped up and excited about. So it's something that they can get behind that charge and say yeah yeah this is what we're going to do. We're going to be you know this is this is what we do and we're not really saying that they stink but we are saying that we're really good because we do it this way. So >> those yeah those discussions behind closed doors are really powerful and I think developers would be able to relate to that because often there's you know there's it can be high intensity and when things go wrong it's incredibly stressful because you'll have clients and customers complaining and they don't appreciate the level of work it might take to resolve um some of the issues. So, I'm sure uh developers can appreciate it's the same kind of feeling for the for the trades people or the construction people. Sometimes things outside of our control go wrong as web developers. Sometimes their their worlds things don't go quite right. The weather, for example, might delay a project massively. They can't do anything about that, but the end client is frustrated. So, there's there's lots of tension and emotion that you can draw out of people in their industry. So I think developers can relate. I know my team of developers sometimes um that the client's expectations of how quickly things can get done uh is is unrealistic often times. So they feel the pressure at times. I realize that. Yeah, that is I'd never thought of that, but I guess that is really that is a similarity from developers to trades is I've I've met I've had so many times I've had discussions with you know specialists in those area like whether it's electricians or plumbers or HVAC or those places where they're you know it's like it's it is sort of a science but there's so many things that can go wrong or you have like like here I know we've had issues where like vendors will take forever to ship something so you want to fix it and it's a quick fix but you're waiting on a part and it's just like developers. Sometimes you're in a situation you're like, well, this is sort of out of my hands. I would love to be able to do it faster. If things lined up, I could get it done today, but these things are blocking me from it. And you, you know, you hate it because you you have no control over it, but >> it, you know, it's not like that's that's the the drawing cards that you have. >> Um, >> yeah, 100%. >> I did want to step back because I did I said really to talk about like how did you get into targeting this industry? How did you get into targeting construction as your as your niche? Yeah, by accident really the the niche found me rather than the other way around and and even starting the business felt a little bit by accident. So I I started um uh because another a person I knew uh was closing his business. It was a small business that just wasn't producing enough for him to make a stable income. So he said, "I'm throwing in the towel. I'm going to get a real job." And so I said, "Well, what are you going to do with your few clients you do have?" And he said, "Well, you can have them." So that's where I started. So it was pretty small uh starting point. But uh yeah, back in those days I did anything and everything for everybody because you just need the income, right? So you you do that. But that opens up a whole bunch of headaches. Obviously you take on projects that are just outside um your your core skill sets. So I remember one website we did when I was doing everything. I I did a dating website. This is before the apps and so on. So um you know people jumped online and on a website and and and did those connections but it was really sophisticated and advanced and it really needed a high level of development. So it was beyond me at that stage. I had a small team but my lead developer pulled the pin. He was the one who did the proposal, did all the scoping out, did everything. He was the only one who knew how to do it and then he quit the job a couple of weeks in and left me in the lurch and I had to figure it out myself. I did get there. I did get it done. The client had no idea that the turmoil I was in and the late nights and and all that, but we delivered. We got the we got it out. Uh she was really happy. She sold that business. Did did really well. Uh but yeah, so but to niche in over the years, I realized at one point, hey, all my very very best clients who are the happiest, they all kind of look and sound the same. They're kind of in the same industries. Not all of them, but the the great overwhelming majority. So everyone says to niche and I thought or niche depends on how you say it >> but um I realized hey this niche has has found me I I should uh leverage this and and really dig deep and then over the over the course of time you sort of get to understand the nuance of each sort of industry within the construction within the trades because and then you learn something that works for for one company and then it's likely to work to the ne for the next to a degree. it might be needing to adapt a little bit, but you just learn what works. So, you can get quick quick uh runs on the board for them and and um but every every niche has its challenges and and so on. And it's it's about learning how to communicate to the individuals uh within those entities. It's quite different dealing with a founder to dealing with a marketing person within an entity depending on the size and scale of a business. So, you've said you've been doing this for quite a while that you've kind of you've hired people now. You're not quite in the weeds as much uh building the WordPress sites and that. Um G kind of looking back where you're at today. Um what are some of the challenges you're still running into within your niche within this industry with these tools that you're using? um more so like kind of back in the day when you were hands-on doing this like you said you know dating apps are now on mobile phones and that >> through the transition of change and over the years as your business has grown what are some of the challenges and things that you've had to do within this technology to to you know to kind of grow your business and stay within this niche >> yeah well about three years ago I got a business valuation which is a real wake up call because it came in a hell of a lot lower than I anticipated and business was stable and it's predictable was doing really well for a long time. So all the signs were were good to get a good valuation, but the valuer said to me, "Hey, look, the rise of AI is a massive threat to your business and not just your business, but your industry." And so no one's buying uncertainty. So they want some level of certainty that they what it's produced before is reliable to produce that for years to come. And he said, "I just can't simply um give that level of certainty. So therefore, I've got to lower the valuation." And that was a real kick in the teeth. You know, you're building something for so long and then some piece of technology AI um has the potential to disrupt and and um and you know put my business at risk. But the so after sulking about that for a while, I um pulled myself together and realized, hey, I've got to get better at understanding how I can implement AI into our uh standard operating procedures to build the websites faster and to keep on top of the technology because things do change fast because if I don't uh I am vulnerable for the business to to collapse if I if I don't stay on top of those things from a technical standpoint and there are things I dabble with from time to time from the tech standpoint, particularly with I use chatb the the developers more so use copilot as well but for me just chatb because we're dealing with a bunch of plugins and and you guys probably know with WordPress not everything always plays nicely together and we haven't got experience with every single plugin uh particularly if we inherit a website and we take it further so you you're picking up the what someone else has put together and cobbled together sometimes so there's a whole bunch of headaches sometimes when things get really updated and things don't work anymore more or things don't get supported anymore and you've got to troubleshoot. Those sort of challenges are always popping up. But with Chach, it's awesome because I might not have an understanding of the the plugin itself and why it might be causing it issue or how to even deal with it. But I put it in there and most of the time it troubleshoots pretty closely to to spoton. I've found over the last couple of weeks it's it's telling me lies the last couple of weeks. I don't know what's going on. It's usually fairly reliable and robust. Um and hopefully it gets back to that. It will something. Have you guys found that? Do you use it? And are you finding a bit of um >> Yeah, it's um it's interesting even when you I use chat GPT a lot too. And even in using folders and stuff like that, it will uh it'll get cross purposes. Sometimes it'll pull something from somewhere else or it'll um it'll get lost. It's like, you know, you sort of have like if you think of like this long thread of a conversation, sometimes it'll jump back to something and um particularly yeah doing I love debugging things like that like plugins and libraries and and those kinds of conflicts where it's just like you don't know all there's too many to know and so you're like well okay well how does this you know how can we maybe figure this one out so that it won't cause us issues that it'll we can get these things to not clash and >> yeah It's so often it'll I'll I'll have to like really tighten down the conversation and say, "Wait a minute, back up. This is the version I'm talking about. This is the environment I'm talking about. This is what we're looking at." Because otherwise it's it's pulling too much information in and it's like, "Yeah, that made sense a week ago, but it doesn't anymore." And it sort of you have to get it to sort of like clear stuff, you almost like clear the the context and go with a clean conversation. >> Yeah, that that's that's true. It's uh it can be so ch because as you as you say sometimes you'll have everything really in a in a tight folder but all of a sudden it's pulling something in from my personal chats I've had with it that has have no relevance to uh I use my chat GPT almost like a psychologist half the time which is probably unhelpful for for its learning about me. >> I I I hate to think what what might happen if that information got leaked. Um whether I'd be locked up in a psych ward or something like that. I'm [laughter] not sure. But uh that's what we're doing. We're we're putting all our information through these tools. It is an interesting world we're living in and security and privacy and all that kind of stuff. People are incredibly um care careful and cautious even from a marketing standpoint. Like we used to have free giveaways like an ebook or something in exchange for an email address. These days people don't want to part with their email address because they know they're giving away part of their privacy. It's not free. They're giving their privacy away. So they might get spammed for the term of their natural life if they do that. And so there's a lack of trust out there and just a concern around that whole who has my information and and what's happening because and because there is legitimate um hacking and things going on these days too. So it's good and bad. There's the positive and negative in that. People are aware what might happen but then people are also cautious with working with people like us particularly if the website's capturing any data uh about the clients. >> Yeah, it really does go having to earn somebody's trust almost right from the start before they're even going to give you like almost before they're going to give you that handshake of an email address. You got to earn some trust there. >> Yeah, 100%. That's that's where it's at really for for any industry and business to because it's so easy to massproduce content at scale that's that that reads pretty well and even a video that looks polished or or even your voice. I was talking to a guy on another podcast who who did his whole book. He's written a book and he's used one of the tools to to have it the audible uh the audio version and it sounds just like him. He can't spot hear the difference and he it's his own voice. So it's it's crazy the amount of tech that can massproduce content. So we've got to find new ways to stand out from the crowd and earn that trust. Um it's that's the key really to business. Mhm. >> So you mentioned that you've uh started looking at using AI tools to help build the sites faster, things of that. Have you integrated AI into any of the sites that you're building for your customers? Have you actually embraced like AI, chat bots, things of that, or is it just strictly more of the automation side of thing to help streamline the business flow? >> It's mostly the the the streamlining of the processes. There's I mean just some of the plugins we're using uh are making it easier for the optimization point of view. So people just miss the basics of you know the the meta titles and t uh descriptions and and or do it wrong often times or those sorts of things. And these days you just press a button and and they're all done and they're done pretty well. I mean, if if it's a massive website and they haven't done any of that stuff, it could take hours and hours and hours to manually go through figure out what the page is about, write something um that that might attract uh search engines attention. But now with a few clicks, you can get that done super fast, which is which is amazing. Um challenge with that is though, everyone else is doing it too. So it just lifts the lifts the st not everyone's doing it, but a lot of people are. So it lifts the stakes um as well. So, it'll be interesting where things go because things can get done so fast. There's tools that claim to do your whole SEO at at the push of a button. Um, we're not using anything like that. We still like to read what it's writing and and understand and control it. It's it's just the quality we want to produce. It's about it's [clears throat] about balancing those things. When you're having your conversations with your customer, um, are some of those things in the back of your mind when you're talking to them about building these sites or maintaining these sites on what tools you can utilize to quickly spin up or, you know, maintain the sites or do you just go in more on just understanding what the customer, who the customer is, what they want, and then kind of go from there, look at what's out there already for that industry and uh, well, construction, but for that particular particular uh for their customer to build them something um that's useful for the customer based on what they need. >> Yeah, it's so that's right. So often the um the customers will have a bit of an un an idea of what websites [clears throat] they like and they might not be able to articulate why they like it but we get a sense I studied graphic design multimedia back in the day so I'm coming from the design perspective. once they start to show us what they like and we can kind of understand and sort of guide them what the benefits or the potential downside of what they like um so to produce the outcome that they're trying to achieve. But from a tech standpoint just with the people we're dealing with they we I've just got to be really careful not to overwhelm them. Now there's important things to make sure they understand. So you build a a WordPress website obviously if you leave that uh for any length of time even a month there's going to be security issues that you know all the different plugins might need updates. So updates are coming out all the time. So that maintenance side of things is really important. It's sometimes hard to for other other people to grasp that because they think okay we've built the website we're going to leave it for for 10 years or whatever that you know that's what they think. Um but it's just not the case. And to be able to communicate that effectively so they understand the importance of maintenance um is is uh it can be a challenge to communicate sometimes but you just have to I just have to get better at doing that. >> Now you mentioned um that's actually just a a side notal but there is like so you mentioned the the idea of maintenance. So for companies like this that are they tend to be pretty static. I mean, it's I I think I've seen companies that have had sites that have been there for 10 years and they haven't touched it and it's obvious. Uh, what's like is there a sort of like a a standard time frame that you usually say, "Hey, you probably need to touch this and do a little, you know, tweaks and updates on, you know, every 3 months. So, it's a year, six months. Is there sort of a a standard timeline that you try to do to just keep it looking fresh and smelling nice?" Yeah, most most clients I would say give some level of overhaul in design every two or three years, but you're right. There's [clears throat] one client we launched a website for who chose not to do the maintenance, not to continue with the maintenance. It it would be it might be 12 years old. It's ridiculously old and and it is so I don't know how it's still standing. It's it seems to be still there. Um, I don't host it or anything, so it's not really a client anymore, I suppose. But I mean, that's uh that's one of those things that's rare. Most people are, this is the curious thing. People think they're going to build a website and then that's it forever. Um, they don't realize in a few years business evolves, things change, technology changes, there's new opportunities, there's so many changes, particularly in the world right now. Um it's it's ideal if we can uh if we can continue supporting them uh every month really for the maintenance but um for the search engine or the search everywhere optimization that's a monthly effort uh as well but then there's clients who who who will choose to take the risk and not get the maintenance and come back in three four years time two three four years time that sort of thing and have an over overhaul >> and that is where we're going to pause this episode. But this is part one. Part two is right around the corner. Actually, couple days around the corner, but nevertheless, it will be coming soon. We're going to continue our conversation with Wes. And it's uh it's going to continue to get into all of the good stuff. Uh this is a it's it's really fun to me because it's an area where I don't think people have enough discussions when you talk about some of the trades, construction companies, things like that. But they have been some of my favorite customers that I've dealt with are in those in the trades in those areas. So, this could be uh this has continued to be a a good one. I think there's a lot of stuff you're going to get that um I don't think you're going to realize as a you know, I know I didn't realize as a developer how similar you are to some of these other lines of business and maybe where you can learn some things from how they do stuff. As always, we can learn more from you if you'll shoot us an email at [email protected]. Check us out on developer.com. Lead us a we've got comment forms, contact us forums, you name it. uh developer channel out on YouTube. You can check us out there and leave comments, feedback. We'd love to hear from you there. Uh subscribe, leave feedback wherever you listen to podcasts. On Twitter, actually on X. Still thinking that on X, we are developer. We have the developer Facebook page, wherever you know, like turn your head and yep, developers like Developer is right there behind you just like stalking you or something like that. And we would love to hear from you at any point. and then that'll keep us from stalking you weirdly in the future. That being said, let's wrap this one up and let you go out to your day. Go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. [music] >> [music]
Transcript Segments
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[music]
Hey Rob, how are you?
>> Pretty good. How you doing?
>> Very well, thanks. Thanks for making
time today.
>> Oh, thank you.
Second
See if I can get this get this to a
point.
There we go. So I can see a little
better. Looks a little better there.
We will have um give you a
this so I can see a little better and
work my keyboard. Um we got a I've got a
co-host. Michael will be joining us
momentarily. Uh just to give you sort of
a heads up, we will do
>> uh it'll basically be two episodes. We
always do these like a two-parter. So
we'll
>> uh but what we'll do is we'll start with
um we'll do some introductions of
ourselves. We'll toss it over to you
because I like to just allow you to
introduce yourself um and then we will
dive in and just sort of we keep it
really
>> sort of conversational. Um you know, we
just sort of jump around on topics. Uh
you've got a a great background. Um, no
pressure. We've never had a bad guest.
So, you know, I'm assuming
>> hopefully I'm not the first. [laughter]
>> I am not expecting you be the the first
one to boris because there's there's
actually a couple comp uh topics I think
we'll get into here that are um
the some of these hot topics and things
like that everybody wants to hear about
and it'll be cool to have a little bit
of discussion around it.
>> Yeah. Cool. Cool. your background is
such that um I'm sure wherever we go
you'll you'll be more than happy to dive
in with plenty of um opinions
and
>> yeah so we'll we'll run through it.
We'll just we'll do one start of a show
um and then we'll just carry all the way
through and then when we wrap up with
you then we'll you know record the rest
of our stuff separately. So that'll sort
of you know make the most of the time
that we've got with you. Um, you'll get
to see a little bit of our our up, but
then from there it'll just be like we're
gonna kick right into it. So, um,
Michael,
>> join us now. Uh, give me a second.
>> Hey, Michael.
>> Shut a door and we'll get going.
>> Hey, how's it going? Sorry, I was in the
wrong Zoom call.
>> That's all right. It's h can be
difficult uh meeting to meeting, isn't
it? Uh, different tools and so on.
>> So, just quick.
>> All right, let's see. So, let me get
this going.
>> And so, roughly, how how long were you
recording for?
>> Uh, it'll be roughly about an hour.
>> Yeah. Cool.
>> So, okay. So, you got like a hard stop
or anything, then let us know. But we'll
try to get you get you out roughly, you
know, 57 minutes from now or so.
>> Um, unless we just really get in some
good conversation, then we may have to
like cut ourselves off.
All right. Um, so, and this is uh this
is video as well. I guess I should be
clear about that if we haven't already
been. So, we do uh typically do is we've
got the the YouTube side, the video side
that has like we pick it up pretty much
as we're starting. So, they get a little
bit of the pre-show and the post show.
Um, and then we'll, you know, so we'll
have uh simal cast, I guess, we'll do
the audio. So, we'll do a sort of a step
into the audio set part in just a
second, even though obviously the video
will still be going.
And uh here we go. Any questions,
Michael, before we dive in? I know you
came in a few seconds late.
No, I'm good.
>> Alrighty then. So, we'll go with our
traditional three. Do Uno. Well, hello
and welcome back. We are continuing our
season of building better foundations.
We are the building better developers
podcast, also known as developer or vice
versa, depending on how you know us and
where you first found us. Today, we're
going to continue doing some interviews.
Uh we're going to we've mixed this up in
our foundational uh season. uh you'll
find out uh I think pretty much if we
don't directly talk about it what some
of the foundational pimp principles are
we're going to hit on today. Uh before
we get into that because I'm going to
allow him to introduce himself because
he will do it so much better than me.
I'll first introduce myself. My name is
Rob Broadhead, one of the founders of
developer, also the founder of RB
Consulting where we are uh what some
people call a boutique consulting
company where we help you as a business
owner figure out where you're at, how to
leverage technology, create a road map
and then implement that road map. so
that you can leverage your technology
for success into the future. You check
us out at rb-sns.com. We have got
product, services, technology
assessments, and all kinds of goodness
there. Good thing, bad thing that has
run into me recently. Uh good thing and
bad thing. This
I guess the the bad thing one would say
is that I have had like in my family,
I've had multiple car like dings lately.
We've had like scratches. We had a car
that got hit and then it got hit again
like rear ended and then it got totaled
and then a little later got total got
hit and not totaled again but you know
hit again. So the bad news is we like
people are coming after us on the road.
The good news is it's like the cars are
already dinged up so the damage has been
done. Might as well just bring it on at
this point. We can't get much worse than
that. Uh at right along those lines we
can't get any worse in my introduction
but we're going to see if Michael will
do so. Go ahead and introduce yourself.
Hey everyone, my name is Michael
Malashsh. I'm one of the co-founders of
Building Better Developers, also known
as Developer. I'm also the owner of
Envision QA, where we help businesses
take back control with custom software
that's built around their needs, not the
other way around. Our focus is simple,
great service, smart solutions, and
rockolid quality. We build tools that
replace frustrating systems, streamline
operations, and are fully tested to work
right the first time. Check us out at
Envision QA where we combine development
and quality assurance to give you
software you can trust. Uh good thing,
bad thing. Uh I'll start out with the
bad thing. Uh kids called last week,
their HVAC system went out. You know,
nice cold day, they turn on the heat,
boom, it goes out. Uh good thing they
had a fireplace. All I had to do is go
collect all the down uh trees that were
in the yard. So, they had a nice fire
going for a couple days till that was
fixed.
And as I alluded to at the beginning
there, uh, we have a guest today and I'm
going to let our guest West Towers
introduce himself. Go for it, Wes.
>> Yeah. Firstly, thank you, Rob and and
Michael for hosting me on on the show
today. It's a real privilege to be
speaking with you with you both. So, I'm
Wes from Uplift 360. We're down here in
Australia. You can probably pick up my
accent um in Melbourne, Australia. And
so, we're a website development agency.
So we do websites, we do SEO, we're
calling it search everywhere
optimization uh with AI and so on large
language models. So we're working a lot
in that space and we're really dialed
into a particular niche being the
construction uh and trades related
industry. So we serve them with their
websites typically WordPress websites
and uh go from there.
And that's uh that's where we're going
to I'm going to dive right into that is
I I've I've actually recently had
several conversations with peoples that
work people that work in the uh various
services provided to trades industries
and we've talked about how they're they
are sort of unique particularly uh when
you deal about deal with technology
because I think a lot of people have the
uh the perspective that the trades are
are not technical. They really don't
they're not they're like they're just
like doers. They go out, they hammer
nails, they create things, they fix
pipes and stuff like that, but they're
not really technology savvy. Uh, but I
found that actually most of them very
much are. Uh, but they're also in it's
it's actually a sort of a unique
challenge because they also are in an
one of these industries where there's a
lot of noise. If you're a like if you're
a plumber, there's a lot of plumbers out
and there's really it's really hard to
distinguish yourself. And that's where I
really wanna I think I want to focus a
little bit today on some of our
discussions is because we fall in the
same thing from a technology point. If
you're building software, if you're
providing IT consulting services of some
sort, if that's your side hustle or your
main job, it's a crowded industry.
There's a a lot of noise. And so I think
we'll start with um you know, thinking
about that. And obviously, you know,
you've already mentioned, you know,
WordPress and it sounds like it's so
it's sort of a you're not doing anything
that's like, you know, crazy or insane.
It's really it's like let's let's get to
the basics and how do we as a customer
if I come to you as a construction
company or something like that? How do
you start that conversation of finding a
way to to be heard among the no amongst
the noise?
>> Yeah. Well, firstly, you're right. It it
is quite a a different scenario dealing
with founder uh construction companies,
trades people um because they are
practical people. They like, you know,
working with their hands, dealing with
tools and machinery and they're
fantastic at what they do, pragmatic,
practical, down to earth people. And I
love the clients we serve. Uh but
they're not often times they're not very
techsavvy. So they're the smaller kind
of businesses we're working with. Small,
medium. Once it gets to the the next
step up, it's a company where they'll
have a marketing team, for example, or
maybe they've just got a marketing
person or they've got a um someone at
least looking after that for them. It's
not the founder who's uh who's who's
doing everything. So, that's they're
different scenarios and you the the one
key thing working with any of these
people really is to remember that they
don't care so much about the process and
the technology and so on. They care
about the outcome. So, it's so easy for
me and everybody um particularly working
with the people we're working with um to
to get bogged down with the the tech and
explaining to them the amazing things
we're doing, but realistically, what are
they what are they wanting? They're
wanting a website that's going to bring
them more business. Um that's
effectively what they're doing. And
they're wanting the message to be clear
and compelling and from a marketing
standpoint for their message to be uh
heard and and to to sing it from the
rooftops. So, so those are the sorts of
things that we that we speak about with
with the clients. And so, um, I have a
team of developers now, so I don't even
touch the development side of things.
Uh, back in the day, I mean, I'm not a
full full uh developer like you guys,
but just did uh WordPress websites for
many many years now. The business has
been over 20 years. Uh, but now uh and
particularly with the the tech
advancements and things changing so
fast, I barely touched the technical
aspect. I mean, the basic WordPress.
Yeah. Cool. I can jump in. Some of the
sites are more sophisticated than that.
So, I just trust the team to do it um in
that in that way. So, every every niche
has its own uh benefits and challenges.
But I think niching is the real secret
to success moving forward. As the
technology becomes easier and easier,
we'll need less of technicians for basic
tasks. will always need highle people to
do highlevel things but the basics will
be often taken care of me for example
basic WordPress websites that's
incredibly vulnerable to to software um
taking over that whole field so I've got
to bring a new level of expertise and
that's why niching is really important
because I really get to understand who
they are how to communicate how to draw
out of them their core messages so we
can uh express that online through
multiple avenues
>> now do you end up uh because you're in a
you sort of stay in the play in the same
industry when you play in that niche.
Are you and this is particularly uh
always been interesting to me because
you're in advertising, you're in
marketing. That's part of what you're
doing is you're trying to distinguish,
you know, customers from each other, you
know, from the the noise,
>> but then also now you're within that
niche. So, how do how do you
uh I guess how do you work the the
things that are the commonalities from
customer to customer and saying that
hey, we understand you while also being
able to say we're going to understand
how to separate you from the competition
so that we can create a unique uh
message.
>> Yeah, that's that's a brilliant point,
Rob. So it it it certainly streamlines
things when we kind of understand their
industry as a whole, but we don't know
the nuance of precisely what they do and
the the specifics of what they do and
how they do it differently and why
they're better than everyone else
effectively is the core thing um to draw
out of them. And so sometimes the
founders are kind of short and they they
don't spend a lot of time wanting to
talk. But what we have found is they
will um open up in a venting session. So
they'll they'll easily complain about
all their competitors. Now this is a
behind closed doors discussion, but I
just give them the permission really and
and even draw it out of them all the
complaints about all their competitors
and what they're doing wrong and what's
wrong with the industry and what
everyone complains about. These are I
call it the shadow side of people. So
the the dark side once we sort of
understand that and they that's so easy
to draw out of people once you give them
permission to complain. It's like a
cathartic kind of experience for them.
But once we understand all of that, we
can reverse it. So what's the opposite
to all of these things? Because that's
who they are. And that's what we've got
to highlight from a marketing
perspective, from a positive frame. You
would never want to, you know, bag your
competitors online and and say it from
that negative connotation. But there's
always the inverse, the opposite, which
is the the positive thing, which we can
draw out and and highlight those things.
And realistically, they're the most
important things to feature in all your
marketing material, the points of
difference, because most buyers will
have a rough idea of the whole industry.
Uh, but those nuanced uh differences are
are really compelling.
That's actually it's really interesting
because you also with that you you
figure out what they are uh what they're
emotional about what they they're fired
up about what they're excited about is
because you you're going to find out
like this is probably this is why they
went into that business that is what
gets them up in the morning because
they're annoyed with you know what the
competition does. And so that's yeah
that's actually brilliant that gives
them that gives you not only like that
flip side of the positive of this is
what they provide but also something
that obviously they're you know they're
they're pumped up and excited about. So
it's something that they can get behind
that charge and say yeah yeah this is
what we're going to do. We're going to
be you know this is this is what we do
and we're not really saying that they
stink but we are saying that we're
really good because we do it this way.
So
>> those yeah those discussions behind
closed doors are really powerful and I
think developers would be able to relate
to that because often there's you know
there's it can be high intensity and
when things go wrong it's incredibly
stressful because you'll have clients
and customers complaining and they don't
appreciate the level of work it might
take to resolve um some of the issues.
So, I'm sure uh developers can
appreciate it's the same kind of feeling
for the for the trades people or the
construction people. Sometimes things
outside of our control go wrong as web
developers. Sometimes their their worlds
things don't go quite right. The
weather, for example, might delay a
project massively. They can't do
anything about that, but the end client
is frustrated. So, there's there's lots
of tension and emotion that you can draw
out of people in their industry. So I
think developers can relate. I know my
team of developers sometimes um that the
client's expectations of how quickly
things can get done uh is is unrealistic
often times. So they feel the pressure
at times. I realize that. Yeah, that is
I'd never thought of that, but I guess
that is really that is a similarity from
developers to trades is I've I've met
I've had so many times I've had
discussions with you know specialists in
those area like whether it's
electricians or plumbers or HVAC or
those places where they're you know it's
like it's it is sort of a science but
there's so many things that can go wrong
or you have like like here I know we've
had issues where like vendors will take
forever to ship something so you want to
fix it and it's a quick fix but you're
waiting on a part and it's just like
developers. Sometimes you're in a
situation you're like, well, this is
sort of out of my hands. I would love to
be able to do it faster. If things lined
up, I could get it done today, but these
things are blocking me from it. And you,
you know, you hate it because you you
have no control over it, but
>> it, you know, it's not like that's
that's the the drawing cards that you
have.
>> Um,
>> yeah, 100%.
>> I did want to step back because I did I
said really to talk about like how did
you get into targeting this industry?
How did you get into targeting
construction as your as your niche?
Yeah, by accident really the the niche
found me rather than the other way
around and and even starting the
business felt a little bit by accident.
So I I started um uh because another a
person I knew uh was closing his
business. It was a small business that
just wasn't producing enough for him to
make a stable income. So he said, "I'm
throwing in the towel. I'm going to get
a real job." And so I said, "Well, what
are you going to do with your few
clients you do have?" And he said,
"Well, you can have them." So that's
where I started. So it was pretty small
uh starting point. But uh yeah, back in
those days I did anything and everything
for everybody because you just need the
income, right? So you you do that. But
that opens up a whole bunch of
headaches. Obviously you take on
projects that are just outside um your
your core skill sets. So I remember one
website we did when I was doing
everything. I I did a dating website.
This is before the apps and so on. So um
you know people jumped online and on a
website and and and did those
connections but it was really
sophisticated and advanced and it really
needed a high level of development. So
it was beyond me at that stage. I had a
small team but my lead developer pulled
the pin. He was the one who did the
proposal, did all the scoping out, did
everything. He was the only one who knew
how to do it and then he quit the job a
couple of weeks in and left me in the
lurch and I had to figure it out myself.
I did get there. I did get it done. The
client had no idea that the turmoil I
was in and the late nights and and all
that, but we delivered. We got the we
got it out. Uh she was really happy. She
sold that business. Did did really well.
Uh but yeah, so but to niche in over the
years, I realized at one point, hey, all
my very very best clients who are the
happiest, they all kind of look and
sound the same. They're kind of in the
same industries. Not all of them, but
the the great overwhelming majority. So
everyone says to niche and I thought or
niche depends on how you say it
>> but um I realized hey this niche has has
found me I I should uh leverage this and
and really dig deep and then over the
over the course of time you sort of get
to understand the nuance of each sort of
industry within the construction within
the trades because and then you learn
something that works for for one company
and then it's likely to work to the ne
for the next to a degree. it might be
needing to adapt a little bit, but you
just learn what works. So, you can get
quick quick uh runs on the board for
them and and um but every every niche
has its challenges and and so on. And
it's it's about learning how to
communicate to the individuals uh within
those entities. It's quite different
dealing with a founder to dealing with a
marketing person within an entity
depending on the size and scale of a
business.
So, you've said you've been doing this
for quite a while that you've kind of
you've hired people now. You're not
quite in the weeds as much uh building
the WordPress sites and that. Um
G kind of looking back where you're at
today. Um what are some of the
challenges you're still running into
within your niche within this industry
with these tools that you're using? um
more so like kind of back in the day
when you were hands-on doing this like
you said you know dating apps are now on
mobile phones and that
>> through the transition of change and
over the years as your business has
grown what are some of the challenges
and things that you've had to do within
this technology to to you know to kind
of grow your business and stay within
this niche
>> yeah well about three years ago I got a
business valuation which is a real wake
up call because it came in a hell of a
lot lower than I anticipated and
business was stable and it's predictable
was doing really well for a long time.
So all the signs were were good to get a
good valuation, but the valuer said to
me, "Hey, look, the rise of AI is a
massive threat to your business and not
just your business, but your industry."
And so no one's buying uncertainty. So
they want some level of certainty that
they what it's produced before is
reliable to produce that for years to
come. And he said, "I just can't simply
um give that level of certainty. So
therefore, I've got to lower the
valuation." And that was a real kick in
the teeth. You know, you're building
something for so long and then some
piece of technology AI um has the
potential to disrupt and and um and you
know put my business at risk. But the so
after sulking about that for a while, I
um pulled myself together and realized,
hey, I've got to get better at
understanding how I can implement AI
into our uh standard operating
procedures to build the websites faster
and to keep on top of the technology
because things do change fast because if
I don't uh I am vulnerable for the
business to to collapse if I if I don't
stay on top of those things from a
technical standpoint and there are
things I dabble with from time to time
from the tech standpoint, particularly
with I use chatb the the developers more
so use copilot as well but for me just
chatb because we're dealing with a bunch
of plugins and and you guys probably
know with WordPress not everything
always plays nicely together and we
haven't got experience with every single
plugin uh particularly if we inherit a
website and we take it further so you
you're picking up the what someone else
has put together and cobbled together
sometimes so there's a whole bunch of
headaches sometimes when things get
really updated and things don't work
anymore more or things don't get
supported anymore and you've got to
troubleshoot. Those sort of challenges
are always popping up. But with Chach,
it's awesome because I might not have an
understanding of the the plugin itself
and why it might be causing it issue or
how to even deal with it. But I put it
in there and most of the time it
troubleshoots pretty closely to to
spoton. I've found over the last couple
of weeks it's it's telling me lies the
last couple of weeks. I don't know
what's going on. It's usually fairly
reliable and robust. Um and hopefully it
gets back to that. It will something.
Have you guys found that? Do you use it?
And are you finding a bit of um
>> Yeah, it's um it's interesting even when
you I use chat GPT a lot too. And even
in using folders and stuff like that, it
will uh it'll get cross purposes.
Sometimes it'll pull something from
somewhere else or it'll um it'll get
lost. It's like, you know, you sort of
have like if you think of like this long
thread of a conversation, sometimes
it'll jump back to something and um
particularly
yeah doing I love debugging things like
that like plugins and libraries and and
those kinds of conflicts where it's just
like you don't know all there's too many
to know and so you're like well okay
well how does this you know how can we
maybe figure this one out so that it
won't cause us issues that it'll we can
get these things to not clash and
>> yeah It's so often it'll I'll I'll have
to like really tighten down the
conversation and say, "Wait a minute,
back up. This is the version I'm talking
about. This is the environment I'm
talking about. This is what we're
looking at." Because otherwise it's it's
pulling too much information in and it's
like, "Yeah, that made sense a week ago,
but it doesn't anymore." And it sort of
you have to get it to sort of like clear
stuff, you almost like clear the the
context and go with a clean
conversation.
>> Yeah, that that's that's true. It's uh
it can be so ch because as you as you
say sometimes you'll have everything
really in a in a tight folder but all of
a sudden it's pulling something in from
my personal chats I've had with it that
has have no relevance to uh I use my
chat GPT almost like a psychologist half
the time which is probably unhelpful for
for its learning about me.
>> I I I hate to think what what might
happen if that information got leaked.
Um whether I'd be locked up in a psych
ward or something like that. I'm
[laughter] not sure. But uh that's what
we're doing. We're we're putting all our
information through these tools. It is
an interesting world we're living in and
security and privacy and all that kind
of stuff. People are incredibly um care
careful and cautious even from a
marketing standpoint. Like we used to
have free giveaways like an ebook or
something in exchange for an email
address. These days people don't want to
part with their email address because
they know they're giving away part of
their privacy. It's not free. They're
giving their privacy away. So they might
get spammed for the term of their
natural life if they do that. And so
there's a lack of trust out there and
just a concern around that whole who has
my information and and what's happening
because and because there is legitimate
um hacking and things going on these
days too. So it's good and bad. There's
the positive and negative in that.
People are aware what might happen but
then people are also cautious with
working with people like us particularly
if the website's capturing any data uh
about the clients.
>> Yeah, it really does go
having to earn somebody's trust almost
right from the start before they're even
going to give you like almost before
they're going to give you that handshake
of an email address. You got to earn
some trust there.
>> Yeah, 100%. That's that's where it's at
really for for any industry and business
to because it's so easy to massproduce
content at scale that's that that reads
pretty well and even a video that looks
polished or or even your voice. I was
talking to a guy on another podcast who
who did his whole book. He's written a
book and he's used one of the tools to
to have it the audible uh the audio
version and it sounds just like him. He
can't spot hear the difference and he
it's his own voice. So it's it's crazy
the amount of tech that can massproduce
content. So we've got to find new ways
to stand out from the crowd and earn
that trust. Um it's that's the key
really to business. Mhm.
>> So you mentioned that you've uh started
looking at using AI tools to help build
the sites faster, things of that. Have
you integrated AI into any of the sites
that you're building for your customers?
Have you actually embraced like AI, chat
bots, things of that, or is it just
strictly more of the automation side of
thing to help streamline the business
flow?
>> It's mostly the the the streamlining of
the processes. There's I mean just some
of the plugins we're using uh are making
it easier for the optimization point of
view. So people just miss the basics of
you know the the meta titles and t uh
descriptions and and or do it wrong
often times or those sorts of things.
And these days you just press a button
and and they're all done and they're
done pretty well. I mean, if if it's a
massive website and they haven't done
any of that stuff, it could take hours
and hours and hours to manually go
through figure out what the page is
about, write something um that that
might attract uh search engines
attention. But now with a few clicks,
you can get that done super fast, which
is which is amazing. Um challenge with
that is though, everyone else is doing
it too. So it just lifts the lifts the
st not everyone's doing it, but a lot of
people are. So it lifts the stakes um as
well. So, it'll be interesting where
things go because things can get done so
fast. There's tools that claim to do
your whole SEO at at the push of a
button. Um, we're not using anything
like that. We still like to read what
it's writing and and understand and
control it. It's it's just the quality
we want to produce. It's about it's
[clears throat] about balancing those
things.
When you're having your conversations
with your customer, um, are some of
those things in the back of your mind
when you're talking to them about
building these sites or maintaining
these sites on what tools you can
utilize to quickly spin up or, you know,
maintain the sites or do you just go in
more on just understanding what the
customer, who the customer is, what they
want, and then kind of go from there,
look at what's out there already for
that industry and uh, well,
construction, but for that particular
particular uh for their customer to
build them something um
that's useful for the customer based on
what they need.
>> Yeah, it's so that's right. So often the
um the customers will have a bit of an
un an idea of what websites
[clears throat] they like and they might
not be able to articulate why they like
it but we get a sense I studied graphic
design multimedia back in the day so I'm
coming from the design perspective. once
they start to show us what they like and
we can kind of understand and sort of
guide them what the benefits or the
potential downside of what they like um
so to produce the outcome that they're
trying to achieve. But from a tech
standpoint just with the people we're
dealing with they we I've just got to be
really careful not to overwhelm them.
Now there's important things to make
sure they understand. So you build a a
WordPress website obviously if you leave
that uh for any length of time even a
month there's going to be security
issues that you know all the different
plugins might need updates. So updates
are coming out all the time. So that
maintenance side of things is really
important. It's sometimes hard to for
other other people to grasp that because
they think okay we've built the website
we're going to leave it for for 10 years
or whatever that you know that's what
they think. Um but it's just not the
case. And to be able to communicate that
effectively so they understand the
importance of maintenance um is is uh it
can be a challenge to communicate
sometimes but you just have to I just
have to get better at doing that.
>> Now you mentioned um that's actually
just a a side notal but there is like so
you mentioned the the idea of
maintenance. So for companies like this
that are they tend to be pretty static.
I mean, it's I I think I've seen
companies that have had sites that have
been there for 10 years and they haven't
touched it and it's obvious. Uh, what's
like is there a sort of like a a
standard time frame that you usually
say, "Hey, you probably need to touch
this and do a little, you know, tweaks
and updates on, you know, every 3
months. So, it's a year, six months. Is
there sort of a a standard timeline that
you try to do to just keep it looking
fresh and smelling nice?"
Yeah, most most clients I would say give
some level of overhaul in design every
two or three years, but you're right.
There's [clears throat] one client we
launched a website for who chose not to
do the maintenance, not to continue with
the maintenance. It it would be it might
be 12 years old. It's ridiculously old
and and it is so I don't know how it's
still standing. It's it seems to be
still there. Um, I don't host it or
anything, so it's not really a client
anymore, I suppose. But I mean, that's
uh that's one of those things that's
rare. Most people are, this is the
curious thing. People think they're
going to build a website and then that's
it forever. Um, they don't realize in a
few years business evolves, things
change, technology changes, there's new
opportunities, there's so many changes,
particularly in the world right now. Um
it's it's ideal if we can uh if we can
continue supporting them uh every month
really for the maintenance but um for
the search engine or the search
everywhere optimization that's a monthly
effort uh as well but then there's
clients who who who will choose to take
the risk and not get the maintenance and
come back in three four years time two
three four years time that sort of thing
and have an over overhaul
>> and that is where we're going to pause
this episode. But this is part one. Part
two is right around the corner.
Actually, couple days around the corner,
but nevertheless, it will be coming
soon. We're going to continue our
conversation with Wes. And it's uh it's
going to continue to get into all of the
good stuff. Uh this is a it's it's
really fun to me because it's an area
where I don't think people have enough
discussions when you talk about some of
the trades, construction companies,
things like that. But they have been
some of my favorite customers that I've
dealt with are in those in the trades in
those areas. So, this could be uh this
has continued to be a a good one. I
think there's a lot of stuff you're
going to get that um I don't think
you're going to realize as a you know, I
know I didn't realize as a developer how
similar you are to some of these other
lines of business and maybe where you
can learn some things from how they do
stuff.
As always, we can learn more from you if
you'll shoot us an email at
Check us out on developer.com. Lead us a
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We'd love to hear from you there. Uh
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That being said, let's wrap this one up
and let you go out to your day. Go out
there and have yourself a great day, a
great week, and we will talk to you next
time.
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>> [music]