Detailed Notes
The Developer to CEO transition rarely starts with a clear plan. More often, it happens gradually—through curiosity, responsibility, and learning on the job.
In this episode of the Building Better Developers podcast, part of our Forward Motion season, we’re joined by Meeky Hwang, CEO and Co-Founder of Ndevr. Meeky shares her journey from developer to agency founder, what changed when responsibility became real, and why founder communities and mastermind groups played such a critical role in her growth.
We explore how experience across consulting, startups, and agencies prepares developers for leadership, the mindset shifts required when you become an owner, and why accountability among peers accelerates learning far more than going it alone.
If you’re a senior developer, tech lead, engineering manager, or new founder navigating the Developer to CEO transition, this conversation offers practical insight grounded in real experience—not theory.
Key Takeaways • Why the Developer to CEO transition often happens “by accident” • How consulting, startups, and agencies build leadership instincts • What really changes when responsibility becomes yours • Why mastermind and founder groups accelerate growth • How peer accountability helps leaders move faster and smarter
About the Guest — Meeky Hwang
Meeky Hwang is the CEO and Co-Founder of Ndevr, a digital solutions development agency. With over 20 years of experience, she has helped organizations such as Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Forbes, PMC, and Bloomberg build resilient, scalable digital platforms.
Meeky specializes in engineering long-term solutions that align technology with business strategy, streamline workflows, and support sustainable growth. As a woman leading in a male-dominated industry, she brings a grounded and honest perspective on technical leadership, entrepreneurship, and building strong teams while scaling a business.
Follow Meeky on • https://www.linkedin.com/in/meekyhwang/ • https://www.ndevr.io/
Follow-us • [email protected] • https://develpreneur.com/ • https://www.youtube.com/@develpreneur • https://facebook.com/Develpreneur • https://x.com/develpreneur • https://www.linkedin.com/company/develpreneur/
Chapters • 00:00 — From developer to founder mindset • 05:00 — Accountability and founder communities • 10:00 — Leadership growth and evolving an agency
Transcript Text
All right. Uh, let me do that. Let me get this. So, this is going to be um, we will do a Let's make sure I've got everything going. I'm recording. Well, everybody that's out there, welcome be behind the scenes. Michael is busy today. So, it's going to be just me talking with Miki. And, um, that is how I say your name, I hope. Is it Miki? >> Okay, excellent. I'm not always I always want to check because sometimes it's a little bit off. Um, the way we do it is this is just going to be uh we do a very conversational just, you know, let things go as they do. I will give a I'll do a an introduction as I um I'll start the podcast. I'll do an introduction of myself. I'll toss it over to you to introduce yourself >> and uh from there we will dive right in. Um, I've out of the whatever it is 100 plus people we've interviewed, every time I think except for once like the interview the introduction started the interview right there. I whatever I had for notes, whatever I had for questions, they just all got thrown out. I was like, "Oh, wow. That's really cool. Let's talk about that." So, um, that's how we're going to go. Probably how we're going to go today as well. Um, it is a technology the audience is, uh, technology focused. are pretty much uh we think of as developers that have gotten into the middle uh you know mid I guess even introduc like entry level midle maybe up even to senior level usually they've got some sort of they're problem solvers so they have some sort of an entrepreneurial side to them uh so we talk business as well as technology and and how to solve problems however that may be um >> let's see we'll run we'll run about an hour uh it ends up being two episodes we'll end up splitting it is we try to do try to keep it I don't know 20 25 minute episodes and uh we split and sort of just we don't have a hard split while we're talking to you. We'll just do it based on conversation on topics and then that's how they'll come out. Um probably be posting around I think mid to late February I think is when we'll have these out. Uh this is video as well and because we do it um we have a YouTube channel we do this on as well which is the click uh clicked record as I said beforehand and we do a uh sort of have like a green room beforehand and then afterwards we usually do like a bonus material of some sort which will be you know usually it's something along the lines of like hey what's a a parting thought that you have for audience and um I'll I'll also get all your you know have you give you a chance to give your your link and connections and how best to reach out to you. And we'll have that obviously as everybody says in the show notes as well uh afterwards. >> Any questions from you while I step back here and get my tea real quick? >> No, I think uh we'll roll in. >> Okay. >> I just changed my camera so hopefully it's not too I'm just No, >> you look great. >> Not too blurry, nothing like that. Uh, good level of audio. And, uh, one second as I throw this in there. Do that just in case I need to refresh my throat as we're talking through this. >> Yeah, I've been like drinking water. I forgot my coffee this morning. I'll drink it afterwards. >> Yeah, I'm down to I'm up to my I'm on my decaf now. So, I've had my I've had more than my share of caffeinated. So, and here we go. And I'm going to dive right in. Let make sure I got everything. Does that look like Yeah, I'll get my head centered right and all that kind of good stuff. And get that over here. And we're going to give him for his video. Three, two, one. Hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of focusing on getting unstuck, moving forward, momentum. We are the developer podcast, building better developers. And I am Rob Broadhead, one of the founders of developer, building better developers. Also the founder of RB Consulting, where we help you leverage technology, assess where you are, and uh make your business a little bit better, give you a road map for success. Uh good things, bad things I'm going to share recently. Uh bad thing is it is raining again. I'm in an area where it is just raining and raining and it's a little bit annoying, but it's not that bad. It's like it's the drizzle kind of thing. The good thing is I am not where I normally am where Nashville is like you get 18 seasons in a day it feels like where it goes back and forth between hot and cold and rain and dry and all that good stuff. I'm actually sitting in Portugal where it is pretty darn consistent right now. And so it's uh not bad weather. It's like the high and the low are like really really close to each other. And especially if you do it in centiggrade it's like it's like really it's like plus or minus two or something like that. So, not a bad place to be. More importantly, I have a guest today. Yes, Michael is away for today. It's going to be just me. Apologies for those of you that like his duet tones better than mine. But to offset that, we have Miki here today and we're going to talk with her right after she gives us an introduction. So, please introduce yourself to our our vast and uh broad crowd out there. >> Hi, thanks for having me, Rob. I'm Miki Hong. I'm a CEO and co-founder of Endeavor. Endeavor is a development agency. So obviously I have a development background and become an entrepreneur pretty much well business owner. I don't know if I I still hesitant to call myself an entrepreneur but anyway so I mean we've been around a little bit over 10 years but I've been doing this um similar work uh same industry for for a while before we even started. So that's a short introduction and then I can we can probably dive into more details around like how we came about and whatnot. >> Well, I think that's exactly where I want to start is. So you've got a give us a little more of your background. Let's dig a little more into that is you have a you said you have a development background uh and now you're a CEO. So what uh let's talk a little bit about that is like what brought you to the the CEO role essentially is right what have you always I guess we'll start with the have you always wanted to have your own business and be CEO and the developer was just a a stepping stepping stone into it or were you a developer and you realize you wanted to I will say develop into grow into a CEO. I think it's more latter because like I always it's kind of jokingly but it's somewhat true that everything's everything happened by accident and it kind of leading into took the opportunities to take to the next step and that led me to where I am right now. I feel like I I um have engineering background. So I went to engineering school. I mean I majored in engineering stud engineering school. I went to UVA and did this program. Um I didn't do computer science but I had to take pretty much all the computer science for my degree. So I had a assistance and information engineering. I thought I was going to business. So I do the um double like a minor in different things just to kind of like get to it. But I didn't really know as as you know in college you don't really know where you're going to be. You're just learning as much as you can. But I started with a a more corporate bigger company as a consultant. But first um I was at Accenture and when my first role accidentally was one of the development role. So I had to dug into more like actual programming to build a software. So I was like building some tech software. So more involved than I initially thought, but it actually made sense because when you're in college, computer science, it's more theory based, but it clicked when I start working and I was actually building things. So I was enjoying it more. So after a few years there, I ended up going to startup just wanting to learn more on actual software development. And then I went into the web development pretty much from the software development but I was still doing more like a Microsoft very strong type language. Um so I was in that world Java or those world and I realized that um well actually that was during the time like economy and all this things. So I got laid off from that company so the startup but initially I was traumatized but it actually led me to a next opportunity. Um I ended up going into a media company Hurst. Um and I starting to get more exposure to open source CMS and those kind of different type. It was very different from what I had experienced but it was also liberating at the same time. So I wanted to learn more about it like I started in that world and I I was in uh New York City. I was pretty much living in New York City for a while and then that area for a long time and I went into med media industry and after that after being in the actual media industry I also wanted to go back to consulting and agency um the cycle because it's faster and you learn a lot and you just kind of experience bunch of different companies and projects and um it's less it felt like it's you're not putting yourself into one project for a long time and I was like I was always really up for learning new things, experimenting new things, learning different culture and learning different languages. Those were my big thing at the time. So I went into like a smaller agency and it's like you know you know how agencies are it's fast and you learn a lot and then there's a lot of smart people and then like you get into experience bunch of different companies and that's where I met my co-founder actually. Um he was my boss's boss actually. So he left around the time that I already gave notice that I was about thinking about leaving because I wanted to figure out the next thing and I didn't have anything in mind when I left the company. So I ended up doing some small freelance work with him after he left and when we're working together we realized that we really um think very similarly, work very similarly and then our um our visions were very similar. So with that, we're like, why don't we start a company? So we ended up starting a company and then after 10 plus years later, we're still together working on on similar things. But yeah, so like my passes just kind of went. It's more like I wanted to learn more and I was like I wanted to explore more and that led to this. I wasn't really trying to be, oh, I'm going to be a business owner. I'm going to be an entrepreneur. And if I think about it now, I probably was were able to do a lot more because I didn't know what I was getting into. So, but I grew more. I still feel like I'm learning so much as an entrepreneur cuz like it's it's always new things that you're learning with different like, you know, employees or clients or whatever. So, yeah, that's a kind of long description of how I evolved from developer to a business owner. Uh yeah, it's uh it was long, but it's uh it's a path that sounds very familiar. I was I have somewhat similar in the ways that I went through. I actually started, it wasn't Accenture, it was actually Anderson Consulting back when I was with them. It was that Fargo ago, but uh same kind of thing. Started with a big company, got into a smaller company, a small, you know, sort of a boutique consulting. I guess they weren't boutique at the time, but there was a smaller consulting company. And then a lot of, you know, went through some startups and things like that. And so I think that leads to one of the things that I feel has really helped me uh as a you know as a a business owner as a as a leader. I don't use CEO as my title. I don't feel like I'm big enough yet or whatever my company isn't. But essentially that kind of role. Um how do you I' I've always thought that the startup experience did a lot to help me more than you know like an MBA or things like that. How do you because you did mention that is like you said that it's sort of you didn't know what you're getting into but you're always having to learn is looking back is how much do you see uh what you know now and what you especially in the last 10 years as you've been running a company how much can you sort of look back to some of those uh those trials and those those challenges when you were trying to just sort of scramble and get things done with a small company that have helped you become who you are today >> a lot it's like yes it's like I think almost everything too cuz um I was lucky enough that I have a co-founder who had a lot of experience already cuz he was a partner of the whole practice. So he knew a lot more and I was learning through some of the things that you don't consider like even though I was in the management role it's not like owning a company like you're still within the company um and you're under whoever was like actually the owners or whatever co-founders you don't get into all those details about various things you have various things that you have to consider as a a business owner. So those I was lucky enough to have a someone who was kind of managing a bigger practice to kind of lean on and also we were lucky enough that when we just started we u went to one of those like a owner camp like a masterminds like invitation only but he has some connections to so we were invited to that so we were learning with the people who have been already had business for like you know five to 10 years so we're learning from some of the things that we need to be on the lookout for something to consider It's if I think about it now like it was so early that I didn't understand a lot of it but like as I grew into or as we were maturing as a company a lot of things that we learned or heard from that um specific boot camp or like the mastermind group thing made sense as we go. So that was a great background that we had and I was so fortunate to have that experience that we also try to join more of like a owner camp or owner like a mastermind and group so that we can learn from other people's experience. So yeah and then even though there's a lot of trial and error but like we're also trying to learn from other pe people's experience which was very important and I think it helped us a lot. And that's a I think that's something a lot of people uh there's even you know the imposttor syndrome people sort of run into where they're like I'm yeah I didn't know all of this. I was just sort of figuring out as I went. It was you know I had a challenge of the day and I figured it out and I solved it. Um and it seems like that's that's definitely part for the course. It's like we we don't know it. We haven't done it before. So the first time we do it we learn it. And is there uh you I'm glad you point out the mastermind because I'm always wondering like what are some of the things that that you can point to say these are things I did that I'm really glad I did that this really helped me uh you know as I got through those those growing pains and those those initial struggles. I think I think masterminds are one of them because I I joined more groups actually uh lately were probably postcoidish because I was I forgot about it because like you when you're really deep in business sometimes you don't have any other time than you know focusing on business but I think during during co was one of those times that like you've kind of look back and like maybe I should join some of different groups and learn from other entrepreneurs or business owners. So I started learning um joining I think the first one I joined was YC was this young entrepreneur um council I think I forgot the actual name of it. Um it was very different cuz energy was just so different because everyone was like younger business owners and they're um pretty successful. They have a like a threshold to get in. But the one thing I realized that everyone there wanted to grow together. It's like it wasn't more like a competitive like you know I'm I'm just going to be like you know competitor. I don't want to share anything. It's more like share and let's get growing together. Let's make both of our companies like grow. It was so much of that energy. So, I learned so much from them and some of the different things like even like a little things like how do you want to manage like your employees or benefits and all those things and you'll share and they'll be very transparent about how they run their business and they're not all agencies but they're different types of companies too. So it was very refreshing and very um motivating to be around those people and you you get um you absorb those energies and you actually that's like one of the things that you make you run more I feel like so that was a great experience and once I had that I was like I'm trying to make sure that I join the groups that people are very open to grow together and share their experiences. So, um, that was one of the things like I I remember someone asked me about that question like if you had to do one thing differently, what would that be? I was like, I'll probably join one of these groups earlier than than later. >> Yeah, I think that um there's a level of accountability with that as well. That's like a it's a a positive accountability because you're you're growing and you want to be able to come to the group. It's just I guess masterminds have that too where you want to be able to show that you want to be you don't want to be the one that's like I haven't done anything. I haven't, you know, progressed since our last meeting. you want to be like, "Yeah, I I implemented these three ideas or I tried these things and now I have new things to ask about or I have new, you know, progress and and you feel like everybody's, you know, sort of like they're like, you know, collapping and and cheering you on." So, you don't want to let them down. So, I I love the idea of that. And um you know, you mentioned >> how does it how did that change because you mentioned u you know, being a little different as a as a a founder, as a you as a CEO. How did you find that changed as well when you got into owning a company versus being employee as far as the um the I guess we'll talk about like the social aspect of it or being able to relate to co-workers and and those that were you know that you're sitting next to every day maybe. Um I don't know if it changed that much but I for myself I actually feel like there's more responsibility that you always think of like so like I feel like I get I feel more responsible for the things that I do. Uh, I don't know if it's it makes sense, but like that grew. I felt like and I was always a very shyish person, so I don't tend to talk a lot and I'll be just kind of reserved in the background type of person. But I had to break out of it because like, you know, if you're a business owner, you have to be. So those kind of things like a little things changed like how I behave and how I act around other people changed a little bit. Um, but yeah, I think other than that, I don't I don't know if there's too much changes there. But then I'm sure that if other people look at me, they might think that there a bunch of other things changed, too. But I might just not recognize it. But it's kind of it's also kind of naturally grew into the role cuz like, you know, when you're in just like a a manager or or management role in different company, you still feel like it's not perfectly like it's not you're not the only one that's responsible for something. Mhm. >> That's so when you're a business owner, you feel like I had to make sure this is my responsibility. There's like a little bit of change that that kind of gave you u different mindsets. I feel like >> Yeah, definitely. I see that a lot and we as as we talk to people that are owners, especially um and this sort of the next question is did those have switched from um where it's like a side hustle or something like that and then turning it into, you know, a real business. Now, is this something that did you guys start out initially just like, okay, we're going to have a business together, or did you have something that you sort of were were working on the side as you guys were talking through this and then and then sort of grew into a business? >> No, we started it right away cuz it was more like cuz we both quit so we're thinking about the next next things already. Um, but I think um I don't know if he was I think he my my coworker pro co-founder he probably had it in mind but I I didn't think about starting a business but since we were partnering we just started right away um and then just kind of started with a escorp and started as a business. >> So how did that conversation go down? I'm really is like so did he just sort of say hey let's start a business or how did that how did that conversation evolve? That was interesting because if it it felt ex incidental accidental because we were doing the project. So we're u it was more like one of the clients that he already had and I was working in that project and we realized that it's like it was very we work I worked with him once before from the previous company but not we didn't really overlap um that much after but when I was working with them I didn't know I I always had a very high respect for him because he's very technical but he's also very um approachable for even for the people who are interns. So I thought always I always thought that was kind of cool um character for the person who was in that level and I didn't know too much of his technical skill because he was always doing other things but when I was working on the project he was very technical he understands a lot of things and then my respect for him grew and uh and the way we think and then like uh kind of more like a reaction to certain things like if things happen and how we want to approach our client the way we want to do it was very similar. Um, so that kind of made it felt like it's probably going to be very easy to work with him. So I was thinking that too and he's like we were and I remember the coffee shop is like he's like we're he was kind of jokingly saying like why don't we just start a company together and I was like yeah and I was like no I'm serious. So I was like, "Oh." So, um, yeah. So, that's why I felt like it was kind of like incidental accidentalish because like I thought he was joking initially, but he was like, "No, like all joking aside, I'm serious. I think we we'll be we'll we'll fit well." So, I think that's how we started. >> Oh, that's awesome. That's a good little story. Now, um, and this sort of goes into it. So, now you've you guys been around together, had this thing for 10 years. How has the progression of your your company uh if you look back like where when he said hey let's start a company the vision you had or and especially in those early conversations of what it would be and what it would become how has that how is that where you are or are you in a completely different situ place and and situation than you thought you would have been >> I don't know if it's completely different but it's slightly different and every time we change like we do something and there are some there decision that we had there were exper like their um directions we took um was evolving a little bit depending on how um how the year went and how like the client perceived us and what type of client we want. So it evolved a little bit. So we always do like annual meetings and quarterly meetings to evaluate it. So it evolved a little bit to where we are but I don't think we did any dramatic changes at one any point um of it. it was like naturally happening with even with the industry um how the industries was going and also with like how the um the the ward was going like during covid and all this thing there are a little bit of shifts here and there to get adjusted to it but I don't think we made it huge different directions uh that much but it was like a little bit of decisions changes or direction changes along the way for the past 10 years >> I guess it's got we'll back up a little bit too on the the background of it. So, what is your uh what does your company do? What is maybe your ideal your niche or your your ideal client? >> So, we actually the direction changed. It's it kind of comes a couple years ago actually two years ago uh what last year mostly beginning of last year. We're predominantly in digital media space. We're always like our clients base are enterprise level digital media. So, like over 10,000 million view per month. um because it's and then it pretty much enterprise companies were um our main clients and we do open source um a lot more with CMS. We used to do so there is a direction changes too. So we used to do a lot more CMS not just open source but we niched down to open source CMS. So mostly on Drupal PH um PHP based um or react uh WordPress or um Larbell or those kind of CMSs and then there's um period of time that we only focused on WordPress because WordPress is like 43% of the web. So like we just wanted to kind of and then a lot of digital media publishing companies um preferred C uh WordPress for their CMS. So we stayed on that for a while and then recently we wanted to just open up to like hey why do we do why why would we kind of lock down on one technology only. So we wanted to u open up a little bit and with the industry we wanted to bring our experience as a digital publishing space into um outdoor brands. So like they have some e-commerce and whatnot. Um because everyone has their platform to work as their like a marketing platform. So we can probably bring in our experience from dealing with hightra digital media company um the CMS experience into them. So like that's the direction that we changed recently to see if that that will be a good fit for them. And that is where we're going to pause for now. Uh we're going to come back. Don't worry, we are not done with Miki. We're going to come back on episode two and uh continue this conversation. And uh there's a we don't get too deep into the AI this time. Yes, you're welcome. Uh we're not going to spend too much time on that. We do like, you know, brush up against a little bit, but not too much. And uh this is definitely one of those if you are just listening and you're not out there watching this then uh it will be worth it very much so to hang out and check us out because of the bonus material. Uh she drops a couple really interesting pieces of information and doubles down on her primary uh piece of wisdom that she would give to anybody. So I want to thank her so much for hanging out. I want to thank Mikey Mike for not making a single mistake like I just did as I was speaking during this episode. uh but he is still working behind the scenes. So you guys can give him an applause as he's editing all this and making it prettier than it needs to be. That being said, go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time.
Transcript Segments
All right. Uh, let me do that. Let me
get this. So, this is going to be um,
we will do a Let's make sure I've got
everything going. I'm recording. Well,
everybody that's out there, welcome be
behind the scenes. Michael is busy
today. So, it's going to be just me
talking with Miki. And, um, that is how
I say your name, I hope. Is it Miki?
>> Okay, excellent. I'm not always I always
want to check because sometimes it's a
little bit off. Um, the way we do it is
this is just going to be uh we do a very
conversational just, you know, let
things go as they do. I will give a I'll
do a an introduction as I um I'll start
the podcast. I'll do an introduction of
myself. I'll toss it over to you to
introduce yourself
>> and uh from there we will dive right in.
Um, I've out of the whatever it is 100
plus people we've interviewed, every
time I think except for once like the
interview the introduction started the
interview right there. I whatever I had
for notes, whatever I had for questions,
they just all got thrown out. I was
like, "Oh, wow. That's really cool.
Let's talk about that." So, um, that's
how we're going to go. Probably how
we're going to go today as well. Um,
it is a technology the audience is, uh,
technology focused. are pretty much uh
we think of as developers that have
gotten into the middle uh you know mid I
guess even introduc like entry level
midle maybe up even to senior level
usually they've got some sort of they're
problem solvers so they have some sort
of an entrepreneurial side to them uh so
we talk business as well as technology
and and how to solve problems however
that may be um
>> let's see we'll run we'll run about an
hour uh it ends up being two episodes
we'll end up splitting it is we try to
do try to keep it I don't know 20 25
minute episodes and uh we split and sort
of just we don't have a hard split while
we're talking to you. We'll just do it
based on conversation on topics and then
that's how they'll come out. Um probably
be posting around I think mid to late
February I think is when we'll have
these out. Uh this is video as well and
because we do it um we have a YouTube
channel we do this on as well which is
the click uh clicked record as I said
beforehand and we do a uh sort of have
like a green room beforehand and then
afterwards we usually do like a bonus
material of some sort which will be you
know usually it's something along the
lines of like hey what's a a parting
thought that you have for audience and
um I'll I'll also get all your you know
have you give you a chance to give your
your link and connections and how best
to reach out to you. And we'll have that
obviously as everybody says in the show
notes as well uh afterwards.
>> Any questions from you while I step back
here and get my tea real quick?
>> No, I think uh we'll roll in.
>> Okay.
>> I just changed my camera so hopefully
it's not too I'm just No,
>> you look great.
>> Not too blurry,
nothing like that. Uh, good level of
audio. And, uh, one second as I
throw this in there. Do that
just in case I need to refresh my throat
as we're talking through this.
>> Yeah, I've been like drinking water. I
forgot my coffee this morning. I'll
drink it afterwards.
>> Yeah, I'm down to I'm up to my I'm on my
decaf now. So, I've had my I've had more
than my share of caffeinated. So, and
here we go. And I'm going to dive right
in. Let make sure I got everything. Does
that look like Yeah, I'll get my head
centered right and all that kind of good
stuff. And get that over here. And we're
going to give him for his video. Three,
two, one. Hello and welcome back. We are
continuing our season of focusing on
getting unstuck, moving forward,
momentum. We are the developer podcast,
building better developers. And I am Rob
Broadhead, one of the founders of
developer, building better developers.
Also the founder of RB Consulting, where
we help you leverage technology, assess
where you are, and uh make your business
a little bit better, give you a road map
for success. Uh good things, bad things
I'm going to share recently. Uh bad
thing is it is raining again. I'm in an
area where it is just raining and
raining and it's a little bit annoying,
but it's not that bad. It's like it's
the drizzle kind of thing. The good
thing is I am not where I normally am
where Nashville is like you get 18
seasons in a day it feels like where it
goes back and forth between hot and cold
and rain and dry and all that good
stuff. I'm actually sitting in Portugal
where it is pretty darn consistent right
now. And so it's uh not bad weather.
It's like the high and the low are like
really really close to each other. And
especially if you do it in centiggrade
it's like it's like really it's like
plus or minus two or something like
that. So, not a bad place to be. More
importantly, I have a guest today. Yes,
Michael is away for today. It's going to
be just me. Apologies for those of you
that like his duet tones better than
mine. But to offset that, we have Miki
here today and we're going to talk with
her right after she gives us an
introduction. So, please introduce
yourself to our our vast and uh broad
crowd out there.
>> Hi, thanks for having me, Rob. I'm Miki
Hong. I'm a CEO and co-founder of
Endeavor. Endeavor is a development
agency. So obviously I have a
development background and become an
entrepreneur pretty much well business
owner. I don't know if I I still
hesitant to call myself an entrepreneur
but anyway so I mean we've been around a
little bit over 10 years but I've been
doing this um similar work uh same
industry for for a while before we even
started. So that's a short introduction
and then I can we can probably dive into
more details around like how we came
about and whatnot.
>> Well, I think that's exactly where I
want to start is. So you've got a give
us a little more of your background.
Let's dig a little more into that is you
have a you said you have a development
background uh and now you're a CEO. So
what uh let's talk a little bit about
that is like what brought you to the the
CEO role essentially is right what have
you always I guess we'll start with the
have you always wanted to have your own
business and be CEO and the developer
was just a a stepping stepping stone
into it or were you a developer and you
realize you wanted to I will say develop
into grow into a CEO. I think it's more
latter because like I always it's kind
of jokingly but it's somewhat true that
everything's everything happened by
accident and it kind of leading into
took the opportunities to take to the
next step and that led me to where I am
right now. I feel like I I um have
engineering background. So I went to
engineering school. I mean I majored in
engineering stud engineering school. I
went to UVA and did this program. Um I
didn't do computer science but I had to
take pretty much all the computer
science for my degree. So I had a
assistance and information engineering.
I thought I was going to business. So I
do the um double like a minor in
different things just to kind of like
get to it. But I didn't really know as
as you know in college you don't really
know where you're going to be. You're
just learning as much as you can. But I
started with a a more corporate bigger
company as a consultant. But first um I
was at Accenture and when my first role
accidentally was one of the development
role. So I had to dug into more like
actual programming to build a software.
So I was like building some tech
software. So more involved than I
initially thought, but it actually made
sense because when you're in college,
computer science, it's more theory
based, but it clicked when I start
working and I was actually building
things. So I was enjoying it more. So
after a few years there, I ended up
going to startup just wanting to learn
more on actual software development. And
then I went into the web development
pretty much from the software
development but I was still doing more
like a Microsoft very strong type
language. Um so I was in that world Java
or those world and I realized that um
well actually that was during the time
like economy and all this things. So I
got laid off from that company so the
startup but initially I was traumatized
but it actually led me to a next
opportunity. Um I ended up going into a
media company Hurst. Um and I starting
to get more exposure to open source CMS
and those kind of different type. It was
very different from what I had
experienced but it was also liberating
at the same time. So I wanted to learn
more about it like I started in that
world and I I was in uh New York City. I
was pretty much living in New York City
for a while and then that area for a
long time and I went into med media
industry and after that after being in
the actual media industry I also wanted
to go back to consulting and agency um
the cycle because it's faster and you
learn a lot and you just kind of
experience bunch of different companies
and projects and um it's less it felt
like it's you're not putting yourself
into one project for a long time and I
was like I was always really up for
learning new things, experimenting new
things, learning different culture and
learning different languages. Those were
my big thing at the time. So I went into
like a smaller agency and it's like you
know you know how agencies are it's fast
and you learn a lot and then there's a
lot of smart people and then like you
get into experience bunch of different
companies and that's where I met my
co-founder actually. Um he was my boss's
boss actually. So he left around the
time that I already gave notice that I
was about thinking about leaving because
I wanted to figure out the next thing
and I didn't have anything in mind when
I left the company. So I ended up doing
some small freelance work with him after
he left and when we're working together
we realized that we really um think very
similarly, work very similarly and then
our um our visions were very similar. So
with that, we're like, why don't we
start a company? So we ended up starting
a company and then after 10 plus years
later, we're still together working on
on similar things. But yeah, so like my
passes just kind of went. It's more like
I wanted to learn more and I was like I
wanted to explore more and that led to
this. I wasn't really trying to be, oh,
I'm going to be a business owner. I'm
going to be an entrepreneur. And if I
think about it now, I probably was were
able to do a lot more because I didn't
know what I was getting into. So, but I
grew more. I still feel like I'm
learning so much as an entrepreneur cuz
like it's it's always new things that
you're learning with different like, you
know, employees or clients or whatever.
So, yeah, that's a kind of long
description of how I evolved from
developer to a business owner.
Uh yeah, it's uh it was long, but it's
uh it's a path that sounds very
familiar. I was I have somewhat similar
in the ways that I went through. I
actually started, it wasn't Accenture,
it was actually Anderson Consulting back
when I was with them. It was that Fargo
ago, but uh same kind of thing. Started
with a big company, got into a smaller
company, a small, you know, sort of a
boutique consulting. I guess they
weren't boutique at the time, but there
was a smaller consulting company. And
then a lot of, you know, went through
some startups and things like that. And
so I think that leads to one of the
things that I feel has really helped me
uh as a you know as a a business owner
as a as a leader. I don't use CEO as my
title. I don't feel like I'm big enough
yet or whatever my company isn't. But
essentially that kind of role. Um
how do you I' I've always thought that
the startup experience did a lot to help
me more than you know like an MBA or
things like that. How do you because you
did mention that is like you said that
it's sort of you didn't know what you're
getting into but you're always having to
learn is looking back is how much do you
see uh what you know now and what you
especially in the last 10 years as
you've been running a company how much
can you sort of look back to some of
those uh those trials and those those
challenges when you were trying to just
sort of scramble and get things done
with a small company that have helped
you become who you are today
>> a lot it's like yes it's like I think
almost everything too cuz um I was lucky
enough that I have a co-founder who had
a lot of experience already cuz he was a
partner of the whole practice. So he
knew a lot more and I was learning
through some of the things that you
don't consider like even though I was in
the management role it's not like owning
a company like you're still within the
company um and you're under whoever was
like actually the owners or whatever
co-founders you don't get into all those
details about various things you have
various things that you have to consider
as a a business owner. So those I was
lucky enough to have a someone who was
kind of managing a bigger practice to
kind of lean on and also we were lucky
enough that when we just started we u
went to one of those like a owner camp
like a masterminds like invitation only
but he has some connections to so we
were invited to that so we were learning
with the people who have been already
had business for like you know five to
10 years so we're learning from some of
the things that we need to be on the
lookout for something to consider It's
if I think about it now like it was so
early that I didn't understand a lot of
it but like as I grew into or as we were
maturing as a company a lot of things
that we learned or heard from that um
specific boot camp or like the
mastermind group thing made sense as we
go. So that was a great background that
we had and I was so fortunate to have
that experience that we also try to join
more of like a owner camp or owner like
a mastermind and group so that we can
learn from other people's experience.
So yeah and then even though there's a
lot of trial and error but like we're
also trying to learn from other pe
people's experience which was very
important and I think it helped us a
lot.
And that's a I think that's something a
lot of people uh there's even you know
the imposttor syndrome people sort of
run into where they're like I'm yeah I
didn't know all of this. I was just sort
of figuring out as I went. It was you
know I had a challenge of the day and I
figured it out and I solved it. Um and
it seems like that's that's definitely
part for the course. It's like we we
don't know it. We haven't done it
before. So the first time we do it we
learn it. And is there uh you I'm glad
you point out the mastermind because I'm
always wondering like what are some of
the things that that you can point to
say these are things I did that I'm
really glad I did that this really
helped me uh you know as I got through
those those growing pains and those
those initial struggles. I think I think
masterminds are one of them because I I
joined more groups actually uh lately
were probably postcoidish
because I was I forgot about it because
like you when you're really deep in
business sometimes you don't have any
other time than you know focusing on
business but I think during during co
was one of those times that like you've
kind of look back and like maybe I
should join some of different groups and
learn from other entrepreneurs or
business owners. So I started learning
um joining I think the first one I
joined was YC was this young
entrepreneur um council I think I forgot
the actual name of it. Um it was very
different cuz energy was just so
different because everyone was like
younger business owners and they're um
pretty successful. They have a like a
threshold to get in. But the one thing I
realized that everyone there wanted to
grow together. It's like it wasn't more
like a competitive like you know I'm I'm
just going to be like you know
competitor. I don't want to share
anything. It's more like share and let's
get growing together. Let's make both of
our companies like grow. It was so much
of that energy. So, I learned so much
from them and some of the different
things like even like a little things
like how do you want to manage like your
employees or benefits and all those
things and you'll share and they'll be
very transparent about how they run
their business and they're not all
agencies but they're different types of
companies too. So it was very refreshing
and very um motivating to be around
those people and you you get um you
absorb those energies and you actually
that's like one of the things that you
make you run more I feel like so that
was a great experience and once I had
that I was like I'm trying to make sure
that I join the groups that people are
very open to grow together and share
their experiences. So, um, that was one
of the things like I I remember someone
asked me about that question like if you
had to do one thing differently, what
would that be? I was like, I'll probably
join one of these groups earlier than
than later.
>> Yeah, I think that um there's a level of
accountability with that as well. That's
like a it's a a positive accountability
because you're you're growing and you
want to be able to come to the group.
It's just I guess masterminds have that
too where you want to be able to show
that you want to be you don't want to be
the one that's like I haven't done
anything. I haven't, you know,
progressed since our last meeting. you
want to be like, "Yeah, I I implemented
these three ideas or I tried these
things and now I have new things to ask
about or I have new, you know, progress
and and you feel like everybody's, you
know, sort of like they're like, you
know, collapping and and cheering you
on." So, you don't want to let them
down. So, I I love the idea of that. And
um you know, you mentioned
>> how does it how did that change because
you mentioned u you know, being a little
different as a as a a founder, as a you
as a CEO.
How did you find that changed as well
when you got into owning a company
versus being employee as far as the um
the I guess we'll talk about like the
social aspect of it or being able to
relate to co-workers and and those that
were you know that you're sitting next
to every day maybe. Um I don't know if
it changed that much but I for myself I
actually
feel like there's more responsibility
that you always think of like so like I
feel like I get I feel more responsible
for the things that I do. Uh, I don't
know if it's it makes sense, but like
that grew. I felt like and I was always
a very shyish person, so I don't tend to
talk a lot and I'll be just kind of
reserved in the background type of
person. But I had to break out of it
because like, you know, if you're a
business owner, you have to be. So those
kind of things like a little things
changed like how I behave and how I act
around other people changed a little
bit. Um,
but yeah, I think other than that, I
don't I don't know if there's too much
changes there. But then I'm sure that if
other people look at me, they might
think that there a bunch of other things
changed, too. But I might just not
recognize it. But it's kind of it's also
kind of naturally grew into the role cuz
like, you know, when you're in just like
a a manager or or management role in
different company, you still feel like
it's not perfectly like it's not you're
not the only one that's responsible for
something. Mhm.
>> That's so when you're a business owner,
you feel like I had to make sure this is
my responsibility. There's like a little
bit of change that that kind of gave you
u different mindsets. I feel like
>> Yeah, definitely. I see that a lot and
we as as we talk to people that are
owners, especially um and this sort of
the next question is did those have
switched from um where it's like a side
hustle or something like that and then
turning it into, you know, a real
business. Now, is this something that
did you guys start out initially just
like, okay, we're going to have a
business together, or did you have
something that you sort of were were
working on the side as you guys were
talking through this and then and then
sort of grew into a business?
>> No, we started it right away cuz it was
more like cuz we both quit so we're
thinking about the next next things
already. Um, but I think um I don't know
if he was I think he my my coworker pro
co-founder he probably had it in mind
but I I didn't think about starting a
business but since we were partnering we
just started right away um and then just
kind of started with a escorp and
started as a business.
>> So how did that conversation go down?
I'm really is like so did he just sort
of say hey let's start a business or how
did that how did that conversation
evolve? That was interesting because if
it it felt ex incidental accidental
because we were doing the project. So
we're u it was more like one of the
clients that he already had and I was
working in that project and we realized
that it's like it was very we work I
worked with him once before from the
previous company but not we didn't
really overlap um that much after but
when I was working with them I didn't
know I I always had a very high respect
for him because he's very technical but
he's also very um approachable for even
for the people who are interns. So I
thought always I always thought that was
kind of cool um character for the person
who was in that level and I didn't know
too much of his technical skill because
he was always doing other things but
when I was working on the project he was
very technical he understands a lot of
things and then my respect for him grew
and uh and the way we think and then
like uh kind of more like a reaction to
certain things like if things happen and
how we want to approach our client the
way we want to do it was very similar.
Um, so that kind of made it felt like
it's probably going to be very easy to
work with him. So I was thinking that
too and he's like we were and I remember
the coffee shop is like he's like we're
he was kind of jokingly saying like why
don't we just start a company together
and I was like yeah and I was like no
I'm serious. So I was like, "Oh."
So, um, yeah. So, that's why I felt like
it was kind of like incidental
accidentalish because like I thought he
was joking initially, but he was like,
"No, like all joking aside, I'm serious.
I think we we'll be we'll we'll fit
well." So, I think that's how we
started.
>> Oh, that's awesome. That's a good little
story. Now, um, and this sort of goes
into it. So, now you've you guys been
around together, had this thing for 10
years. How has the progression of your
your company uh if you look back like
where when he said hey let's start a
company the vision you had or and
especially in those early conversations
of what it would be and what it would
become how has that how is that where
you are or are you in a completely
different situ place and and situation
than you thought you would have been
>> I don't know if it's completely
different but it's slightly different
and every time we change like we do
something and there are some there
decision that we had there were exper
like their um directions we took um was
evolving a little bit depending on how
um how the year went and how like the
client perceived us and what type of
client we want. So it evolved a little
bit. So we always do like annual
meetings and quarterly meetings to
evaluate it. So
it evolved a little bit to where we are
but I don't think we did any dramatic
changes at one any point um of it. it
was like naturally happening with even
with the industry um how the industries
was going and also with like how the um
the the ward was going like during covid
and all this thing there are a little
bit of shifts here and there to get
adjusted to it but I don't think we made
it huge
different directions uh that much but it
was like a little bit of decisions
changes or direction changes along the
way for the past 10 years
>> I guess it's got we'll back up a little
bit too on the the background of it. So,
what is your uh what does your company
do? What is maybe your ideal your niche
or your your ideal client?
>> So, we actually the direction changed.
It's it kind of comes a couple years ago
actually two years ago uh what last year
mostly beginning of last year. We're
predominantly in digital media space.
We're always like our clients base are
enterprise level digital media. So, like
over 10,000 million view per month. um
because it's and then it pretty much
enterprise companies were um our main
clients and we do open source um a lot
more with CMS. We used to do so there is
a direction changes too. So we used to
do a lot more CMS not just open source
but we niched down to open source CMS.
So mostly on Drupal PH um PHP based um
or react uh WordPress or um Larbell or
those kind of CMSs and then there's um
period of time that we only focused on
WordPress because WordPress is like 43%
of the web. So like we just wanted to
kind of and then a lot of digital media
publishing companies
um preferred C uh WordPress for their
CMS. So we stayed on that for a while
and then recently we wanted to just open
up to like hey why do we do why why
would we kind of lock down on one
technology only. So we wanted to u open
up a little bit and with the industry we
wanted to bring our experience as a
digital publishing space into um outdoor
brands. So like they have some
e-commerce and whatnot. Um because
everyone has their platform to
work as their like a marketing platform.
So we can probably bring in our
experience from dealing with hightra
digital media company um the CMS
experience into them. So like that's the
direction that we changed recently to
see if that that will be a good fit for
them.
And that is where we're going to pause
for now. Uh we're going to come back.
Don't worry, we are not done with Miki.
We're going to come back on episode two
and uh continue this conversation.
And uh there's a we don't get too deep
into the AI this time. Yes, you're
welcome. Uh we're not going to spend too
much time on that. We do like, you know,
brush up against a little bit, but not
too much. And uh this is definitely one
of those if you are just listening and
you're not out there watching this then
uh it will be worth it very much so to
hang out and check us out because of the
bonus material. Uh she drops a couple
really interesting pieces of information
and doubles down on her primary uh piece
of wisdom that she would give to
anybody. So I want to thank her so much
for hanging out. I want to thank Mikey
Mike for not making a single mistake
like I just did as I was speaking during
this episode. uh but he is still working
behind the scenes. So you guys can give
him an applause as he's editing all this
and making it prettier than it needs to
be. That being said, go out there and
have yourself a great day, a great week,
and we will talk to you next time.