Detailed Notes
Balancing building and feedback is one of the hardest shifts developers face as they move into product ownership or entrepreneurship. The habits that make you a strong engineer don’t automatically translate to building a business or product people actually want.
In this episode, we break down a practical system for keeping momentum without losing direction. You’ll learn how to define a clear v1, structure your week, and use customer conversations to sharpen both your product and your message. We also explore why timeboxing, personal sprints, and simple reflection habits help prevent wasted effort.
If you’ve ever felt stuck between coding all day or drowning in feedback, this conversation offers concrete ways to rebalance your approach and move forward with confidence.
Key Takeaways: • Why clear v1 scope matters more than feature lists • How time boxing prevents execution and discovery extremes • Using problem-first conversations to filter feedback • Turning customer language into product messaging • Simple habits that expose patterns early
About Tyler Dane
Tyler Dane has dedicated his career to helping people better manage—and truly appreciate—their time.
After working as a full-time Software Engineer, Tyler recently stepped away from traditional employment to focus entirely on building Compass Calendar, a productivity app designed to help everyday users visualize and plan their day more intentionally. The tool is built from firsthand experience, not theory—shaped by years of experimenting with productivity systems, tools, and workflows.
In a bold reset, Tyler sold most of his belongings and relocated to San Francisco to focus on growing the product, collaborating with partners, and pushing Compass forward.
Outside of coding, Tyler creates YouTube videos and writes about time management and productivity. After consuming countless productivity books, tools, and frameworks, he realized a common trap: doing more without actually accomplishing what matters. That insight led him to break productivity down into its most practical, nuanced components—cutting through hustle culture noise to focus on systems that actually work.
Tyler is unapologetically honest and independent. With no investors, no sponsors, and nothing to sell beyond the value of his work, his focus is simple: help people get more done—and appreciate the limited time they have to do it.
Follow Tyler on • https://www.linkedin.com/in/tyler-dane/ • https://www.youtube.com/@tylerdane-com • https://x.com/_TylerDane_ • https://www.compasscalendar.com
Follow-us on • [email protected] • https://develpreneur.com/ • https://www.youtube.com/@develpreneur • https://facebook.com/Develpreneur • https://x.com/develpreneur • https://www.linkedin.com/company/develpreneur/
Transcript Text
Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season. We were looking at ways to get unstuck and to move forward and to get that forward momentum and all the important things that are required to get across the finish line. But more importantly, because this is who we are, we are developer. We are the building better developers podcast. I am Rob Broadhead, one of the founders of developer, also the founder of RB Consulting, where we help you leverage technology to do business better. Good thing and bad thing. I'm going to start with the bad thing. I got out of 2025 and was so busy that I was not able to do all that I wanted to do for 2025. I was there's all of my normal year-end planning and all the stuff I like to do. Did not get it all done. I've got it just spilled right into 2026. The good news is for all of you, one of the things I did get done is revamp the entire developor website. So if you go out there, it's going to look different. That's on purpose. That's not because we got hacked or anything like that and have done a lot to change particularly the navigation and add some pieces there to just make it a little easier depending on what you want to do on the developer nurse site to go do it. We also have all of our links and have tested everything out. So you can join the newsletter, you can go out and you can check us out on uh YouTube. You can subscribe wherever you want to subscribe as a podcast. We yanked some of the stuff like Google Play that doesn't exist anymore. We pulled that stuff off. We have, you know, clean new about us pages if you want to see what myself and my co-host co-host or co-host that is about to introduce himself. Uh what we're doing uh some of the apps that we've gotten out there over time that you guys can play around with and uh all the good ways to give us feedback. That was a lot. But now I'm going to pass it on to Michael. Go ahead and introduce yourself. >> Hey everyone, my name is Michael Malash. one of the co-founders of developer building better developers. I'm also the founder of Invision Q8 where we build and test custom software divi designed around your business. That way you can focus on running your business and scaling it. Uh good thing, bad thing. I'll start with the bad thing as well. I will say 2025 uh really was a struggle of a year. Just too many things going on at once. too many long weeks, too many long hours, and ran into that uh old trap that we run into as developers where you run into burnout. And I I ran into a high anxiety level of burnout where I was always on, never off. And uh so going into 2026, I have been able to identify that. And thankfully, a lot of the things that were causing that have kind of gone away and I've been able to reset and things are finally getting back to where I feel normal again. One of the things that causes him anxiety that is not going away is me. I'm still going to be here. Unfortunately for him, so he still has struggles. So, you will still hear bad things from Michael every week. But right now, we have a very good thing as we're going to return to our conversation with Tyler Dayne. This was a really good one. He uh if you're watching out on YouTube, you will have noted that he actually even said beforehand, "Hey, I read the book or I'm starting to read the book and I I love what you guys are doing. I think this is a really good fit." And it turns out he really is uh one of these people. He's one of you. He is one of the people that we do this for. He's like a perfect fit, the perfect avatar for why we do development or why building better developers even started. And so this has been a it's a great conversation and there's more. So, pencils up, start taking notes because we are about ready to to drop a few bombs of knowledge. Uh, he's got a couple great u suggestions that he has. So, make sure you don't miss those. Worst case, if you do, rewind and and listen to it the second time and make sure you get it so you don't miss it. That being said, let's dive right back in where we left off with Tyler Dayne. >> Okay. I have I have one more existential question I want to ask you guys and then I'll um then I'll sit back. So, let me give me some time to set this up. But from my context, I spend a lot of time like exercising. That's that's what I'm into these days. And it's very straightforward what you have to do. You have to eat less. Uh then you burn. You have to train hard. Your muscles grow if they have enough protein and you sleep well. Um if you get like sunlight, that's good for you. Social life, like it's it's very clear what you have to do and you just do it long enough and then you get better. And so that's very appealing to a certain type of person like me who just like wants to grind and put his head down and just okay I'll follow the plan I get better awesome. When I apply that going out of an full-time engineering role into the entrepreneurship role there's a trap because like you guys were saying you are given that kind of plan when you're an engineer. You're like here are the requirements here's your constraints you have 40 hours a week 50 60 whatever. um here are the people you have on your team. Uh make it happen and then you can just focus on the intellectual work, the the coding, the making happen and just putting your head down. And what I'm hearing is you guys saying uh you have to make space for other inputs, customers being in the wrong market. Um, and so yeah, like you said, I'm on my third iteration of trying to figure out a way to make this work where I can't just say I'm gonna code for 10 hours a day cuz then I'll code a bunch of features no one wants. U, but it's also tricky to say, I'm just going to talk to 20 people a day cuz then I'm drowning in feedback. I don't actually make anything. And I would just put this to you guys like if you were in my shoes, how would you think about balancing those those two mindsets? I think that's an that's an excellent question and that is often the the challenge and it's it's one we've talked about. It's one we struggle with. I I have a uh a self-built app similar to what you I get maybe similar to what you're building. Um that was specifically came out of me wanting to make sure that I'm I've got checks and balances on balancing my time properly and focusing on what we we often refer to as working in your business versus on your business. the things that are, you know, coding versus uh sales and marketing. And I think it it does vary a little bit from from person to person and and product to product, how much input you can you can take before you get, you know, overwhelmed basically and also how far you can code where before you've sort of run off the pier and now you're not you've sort of run out of you're doing you're making it up as you go a little bit as opposed to getting some good feedback. So I think it's very much a it is very much a a planning problem is is sitting down and thinking about okay well what do I what do I have in front of me? What is it I want to get to version you know it's it's almost like any business like what is what is my why? What is version 1.0 that I want to get out the door? What does 1.0 look like right now? Well here's you know 10 10 features that 1.0 is going to have. What's it going to take to get here? Okay, then I can use that and I can at least build out a schedule from a coding point of view and say this is how I get there. Now, what you need to do is is say, okay, if that's what I'm going to do, you need to make sure that you've got buffer in there. So, let's say you you originally planned it because I'm a developer, so I'm going to work 80 hours a week. Okay, great. You've just signed yourself up for 80 hours a week. Well, the first thing you do is you're a developer, so double all your estimates because we always underestimate things. So now and then we always I think we often often also overestimate what we can get done in a week. So cut it back down to you know a 40hour work week or better yet like a 30-hour work week and then set aside uh hour like there's a couple ways to do it. I found it works sometimes really well to say like I'm going to start each day doing networking and and marketing. I'm working on my business. Uh, or I'm going to end the day with that or I'm going to do it in the middle of the day. That'll be like my lunch break every day. I'm working on that. So that you and you want to get it. And I'm like you. I like having that that regular schedule. Something that I can just sort of fall back on so that if I wake up in the morning and I really don't know what I've got to do, I have like this structure to fall into and say, "Okay, it's 9:00. I'm going to go do this." That or set aside a day. I've often seen people that are like, "Okay, Monday through Thursday I'm coding and then Friday and which is not a bad idea if you're if you think of like a an agile or a sprint approach is that you you know like maybe every other Friday or every Friday you code through a Thursday. You go sit down and do a lot of networking. You talk to a lot of people. you you you know light up a bunch of calls and then that you come in Monday and you go, "Okay, now I'm going to take the feedback that I got Friday and I'm going to be integrating that into my work this week and then when I get to Friday I'll have something new." You know, something like that. I think sprints work really well for that from a product development point of view. I've used personal sprints where I say I set stuff up in two or three week uh cycles basically and say, "All right, I'm going to be coding here. I'm going to be doing some testing here. I'm going to be doing some networking here. I'm going to, you know, test deployments and and put something out. I'm going to write some marketing material. I'm going to go chase down the the administrative stuff, you know, during each of those times. And that allows you to uh from a technology point of view, a lot of people hear, you know, hear about technical debt. It allows you to avoid essentially technical debt and even business debt, which is, trust me, that is that's one of the killers. It's easy to sit down and write for go code for 10 hours. It's not as easy when you're like, "Okay, now I got to go beat the bushes and find some people to talk to about my product for eight or 10 hours." Michael, your thoughts? >> Yeah. So, I'll go back a little bit more because you've touched on a lot of the technical side, the developer side, things like that. So, going back given depending upon where you're at with your business, how many talk a little bit more working on your business uh than in your business. Um, given that you're building this product, you have this idea, you're trying to build something custom and you're trying to find the right customer and identify who your customer is and what features they need solved. This is where maybe at your current stage, and a lot of people kind of skip this step, is maybe do a little additional market research. uh while you're working on your product, maybe put out some questionnaires, join some like online uh groups or go to some networking conferences. Talk about the problem. Don't talk about the product. Talk about the problem. Is this a problem that these people are having what basically okay you're struggling with this problem? What would make your life better? ask them how they would solve their own problem and see if your product kind of falls within that niche and then you could start asking questions. Well, okay, if you had this, how would you use this or you know, how would this solve your problem? So, doing a little more uh I guess customer research or product research even while you're developing the product is still a good idea. And the kind of the flip side of that is I know um you know we've thrown out like you know work 80 hours a week. Okay, I'll code for 80 hours a week. That's not sustainable. One thing I can attest to this and Rob knows this is we go through cycles. We go have seasons where yes we are hyperfocused as developers. We can sit down and code for hours. The problem is if we do that we tend to lose focus of the business. We're more down you're so far down in the weeds you lose the big picture. Try to schedule at least 15 minutes a day, maybe at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day where you refocus on your business. What is it that I'm doing? Who is my customer? What am I trying to solve? Then go into the business and work on it. That way you're coming in with the mindset of here's the big picture. Yes, I'm still down in the weeds, but I don't lose that big picture. And then you don't lose focus on your customer. That helps with kind of the scope creep and kind of throwing in features that may not be what your customer wants and you're wasting time. That also leads into kind of like your return on investment, your time. So you've left the you know the corporate America. You're you are have to work for a paycheck. You have to sell your application because you're not getting paid. So your time is your commodity. So, you want to make sure that you're focused on what is going to move your product forward. Now, yes, you could spend 80 hours a week, but is that the best use of your time or is it getting out and talking to your customers, doing that research, figuring out what you need, get that small MVP out the door, and then uh I don't know what your pricing model is, but maybe offer the application for free. Give a free base product. Let them play around with it. Get the feedback. find the right customers and then double down on the customers that it fits and then focus on them and see if you can build your product, you know, within that silo or within that funnel. >> I will follow up on that is it's one more thing is while you're having those conversations, it's really nice to have those while you're building out your application because those conversations end up becoming what your your marketing message is. as you start out with things like, "Hey, what kind of problems? What are some of the pains that you're having that this will solve? What are the things that you where do you see this being useful? Where do you see it not being useful?" Well, as you're tightening that up and addressing their concerns, you can start flipping that a little bit and say, "Hey, are you suffering from this problem? Hey, is this something that is a a pain that you see see on a, you know, on a regular basis?" And that becomes then as you do it, not only is your um your product is sort of like evolving into solving those specific problems and answering those questions, but now your marketing also is going to be like that because now you're getting used to talking about what are the in the language that people understand what are the problems they're suffering through and here's the solution and refining what that solution sounds like. So people will hear this thing hurts. You know that oh I have this hurt. this guy understands it because he just asked me about it and then he brought me a gave me a solution that I'm like, "Yeah, that definitely will solve my hurt." And so you, you know, you really are going to be able to progress your your marketing and branding along with your product as you do it. >> Man, where were you guys on my first iteration? I needed to come on the show years ago. That was awesome. Um, what I'm hearing is a couple themes are sticking out. Um, one is creating that cycle. So you talked about like your build work and then you go out and then you listen and then you update the build or you talked about in terms of the calendar like structuring your time with recurring time blocks with different things you're doing. Um and that's something that uh I've also come to that same conclusion. One of my big mistakes was um trying to port over the same mindset that people took in say like a sports domain into the business domain. So, I love listening into like medalists and champions and there's this video of Michael Phelps that's forever stuck in my brain and the reporter was like, "How'd you do it?" Um, and he's just like, "Well, I just swam every day for 6 years straight and didn't take a day off." And that blew my mind. And then I'd hear interviews from Kobe talking about doing four workouts a day. And I I looked up to those guys and I felt like that was so appealing. I didn't realize is those guys, especially Phelps, he he's in total control of his sport. He's moving his body. Like that's the product. He's totally in control. Kobe has four other teammates at a time he has to kind of coordinate with, but that's just four other teammates. And us uh like we're out with the marketplace in the world and we need to listen to these people. And so it's I had to learn that it's not like all about me and it's not all about just getting the weight room and doing the reps or eating the food. It's about creating space to find out if I'm even making something helpful. If people want it, what's the language I can use to get through to them? Is there a better use of my time that will be more help? It's basically like getting out of this idea of being like self-centered and that's hard for someone who's who wants to be an entrepreneur cuz it is an egoic endeavor. Uh so to balance that that feeling of wanting to be a creator and being in control and um seeing it your way while also like serving someone and just shutting up and listening and balancing that and finding the structures to do that was like it took me so long to figure that out. Um, so hearing you guys reaffirm that is gives me a lot of confidence that that was really cool. >> Yeah, I think the the exercise analogy is actually not a bad one is because there's um, you know, if you've got especially very high-end athletes, there there will be very specific routines uh, workout routines that they will do based on their sport and and how they're doing it, even maybe their position. So like a a quarterback in football is going to be have a very different routine than a linebacker and things like that. And I think that's something to think about and and something to ask yourself as a business owner and this goes a little bit to what Michael said about making sure that you're making the best use of your time is it's like is this exercise I'm doing something that actually helps my business or is it something that I'm just doing it and I'm you know I'm just building muscles but is it are they muscles that matter? And I think that goes to the, you know, trying to distinguish between being that, you know, being that entrepreneur and knowing that you have the weight of the, you know, the company on you and that you have to be a, you know, you have to be a self-starter, you have to drive things, but also sharing that with the service mentality of you. If you're not in it to serve somebody else, if you're not in it to serve your customer, then you're probably not going to succeed. And I' I've read books and and seen interviews with a lot of people that are in the service industry and some of the things they do and and their mindset in that that is very much I think useful in the in actually in in any business is to understand that you're always in the service business service industry no matter what it is you're building and this goes back so you have to listen to your customer. You don't always customer isn't always right but the customer is their input is always valuable is always actually almost invaluable. you want that you want to find a way to make that work with your product and sometimes it may be something that that it's invaluable only because you know okay this is not a customer I want to serve so I want to make sure I don't uh you know suggest that I'm going to serve this kind of customer because I don't want to go there I don't want to do that I don't want to be that product so some it's almost like negative marketing it's saying yeah this is great however if you're this person this person this person it's not this is horrible don't buy it go bot you like you said go go go go go go go use Google calendar or something like that >> and also speaking to the exercise uh mentality here one of the biggest mistakes I see a lot of developers doing especially if they're leaving corporate for the first time and that's kind of all they've known you you've known either waterfall you know agile you know how to build products you don't know how to run a business so you have to expand your exercises. You have to include additional steps and tools into your daily routine. You have to expand that agile model to include your business. You have to include things like marketing, customers, sales. Yeah, you have to expand your focus and exercise those. If you are literally just coming from software development and trying to launch a company, you better be spending a little more time on the business side of things, understanding how a business works, how to run a business, how to talk to customers, how to do that research, and a little less time on the code just so that you make sure that the product you're building that you can launch that, that you can sell that product, that that product's not going to be dead on arrival. Because if you just sit in a room and write something and code it and then come out and say, "Hey, I have this product." You haven't done the market research, you don't know who to talk to, you're going to be shouting in a very loud room and no one's going to hear you. So, it's one of those where you just have to expand your tool set. You have to exercise other skills to launch your business and be successful. >> Yeah. building that that skill or that muscle is um something that um is obvious now but I there's a trap that I fell into it with um with my career where um I was good at it early and then I became a senior engineer, a lead engineer like and then I had a team and then I had people looking up to me and every word I said in these meetings they would all shut up and listen and they would do whatever I said and they think, "Oh my god, Tyler the Oracle is here. We're going to figure it out. it's going to be fine. So, I felt like I could do no wrong and it was harder for me to start I I had maxed out that skill of like engineering and creating product and shipping um the code and I was more reluctant to work those muscles of like just listening to people getting better at marketing and I think that is a point for uh the argument that it's better to do it sooner even if you're not financially like as stable as you will be in 5 or 10 it because your ego has a way of strengthening alongside with those skills and it's it I found it harder to build a well-rounded skill set when I was so maxed out on one which maybe goes back to Rob's point about um side hustling or getting something going on uh along the way when the stakes are lower. Um, but just cuz you're a 10 out of 10 at one skill set doesn't mean you're going to get there with the other. And just letting the other muscles or skills go dormant for too long. Um, actually makes it harder to get to you get to that point of competency when you have like as a system you can work well. Uh, so a lesson I learned the the hard way is to get a little too overconfident cuz I was so good at one thing. uh and thinking that it would apply directly to another thing when it just doesn't work like that. >> Yeah. Unfortunately, that's I think some of the best lessons learned in life are the ones where we we stumble and fall like that where we we feel like we're, you know, invincible and then we realize that oh now we're in a different you know we're in a different pool, we're in a different ballpark or however you want to look at it and what we have or what we thought we had doesn't translate completely. Uh but it does and it will almost everything will translate somewhat. So, I think that is a that's an invaluable skill to have is to is to have the um the wisdom, I guess, to be able to look at a situation and especially when it's one that's not a a perfect fit for your strengths, but to say, "Okay, well, how can I step in into this and help?" And it does come back very often to it's you start by listening is you start by you know not it's sort of like I like to think of as like Superman coming in dressed as Clark Kent and so like yes you can go do this thing very well but being very subtle about it or not telegraphing it and let everybody else in the room sort of figure stuff out and then you can come back and sort of you know say oh okay let's let's walk through this solution because it is it's a challenge if you go into your own company like being the owner, the founder, the CEO, the president, whatever your title is, when you start talking to people, it changes. It changes how people look at you. It changes how people hear you. And you have to if if you're looking for feedback, if you're looking for a team approach, then you have to change how you do things so that you don't just drive everybody, you know, forward. If you want to truly scale who you are, you need to figure out how to sometimes let people do it not as well as you would do it. And then also a huge huge part of the the happiness part of being as we grow through this is figuring out what we like and what we don't like and figure out how to find people that can do the things we don't like that they and not because we're shoving it off on it but because they like it. It's like this is, you know, it's finding your own niche and then finding the niche of the people around you and figure out how to use that uh and and turn that chemistry into a team. >> Yeah. That being said, I we've like I guess we'll switch back and we'll actually ask you a question again before we jump. >> Sorry, I could ask you guys questions. >> This was great. I think this is u and the fact that you've you've gotten a lot of feedback out of this is is really awesome. Uh that you got some some stuff that you've you know that you can now take with you. But I want to go to what you have learned because you've you you know this is now your third time. So, I'm wondering um what like what is one thing maybe that you would go back the first time that you jumped out into this? What is you know one thing that you would say to yourself or one thing that you would do differently that you think would drastically move the needle from that first time around? >> Okay, this is going to be a practical free tip um that is actually insanely powerful and I'm going to pull it up right here to show you that I got it. it's journaling or writing writing things down. And I don't mean in a scrap piece of paper and then throwing it away. I like a journal because then you have to look back at it and you can detect your own BS. So, you could just do it like that, but I'm going to give you some other options. Um, if you want a system around it, like you want some structure, uh, I recommend bullet journaling. They they have like a it's a lightweight framework around how to structure things in the page um that you can learn in 10 minutes. it's not as like fancy as it sounds. Or if you just want to be like you're you're more of that grinder or the the workhorse um type, there's a notebook called one line a day and it's 5 years um and so each page is a different calendar day and so you see it for 5 years. So I will see January 6, 2026, January 6, 2027, 28, 29, 30. And the benefit of that is uh you the bar is so low just to write one line a day. Like you can do that before bed, but once you get to the second year and the third and the fourth and the fifth, you can see your BS from previous years just automatically. And there's nothing as like eyeopening as seeing yourself uh lie to yourself for two years in a row or three years in a row like on the same day about the same thing or seeing yourself slowly stray spending time with the wrong people or working on the wrong feature or just putting your head down for months on end. And just watching that play out uh as like a third person is um like the best therapy or startup advice or uh knowledge like that you need is just having a mirror to detect your own BS. And um I think that would have helped me correct some of my my errors a little sooner on those first two attempts because the longer it takes to learn those lessons just the more expensive it's going to be and the harder it's going to be to to get to the product market fit. Um so that would be my advice. Just write stuff down and look at it basically. Be honest. >> Yeah, that is uh that's an awesome I don't think we've talked about that enough but I think journ I'm I'm a fan of journaling as well. um doing daily journals and be able to look back through those and and sort of see the evolution of of things like that. Um yeah, I' I highly recommend that. And that's I have not heard of um either of those and I think I'll probably take a look into those and see if that's something I may try, especially like that one line. That sounds like that would be a really fun uh exercise to do over time. You know, the first year, like I said, it's it's just you're taking notes, but as you get further into it, I think to see how that change, the evolution, or maybe where you haven't, maybe where you're stuck, uh, that is a great way to do it. For those that would love to to figure out how to to be more productive and to to work with you, to talk about your product, what are some of the best ways for them to get a hold of you? >> It's a choose your own adventure, but uh, it all starts at tylerdane.com. That'll link to my other places. Um, so if you're right now my whole life is centered around, like I said, being healthy and then helping engineers just like you guys. So if you're an engineer and you like watching stuff, I got a YouTube. If you like reading stuff, I got an engineer focused newsletter. And if you want like a tool that's centered around the things that we talked about today, I got an app for you. Um, open source, free right now in beta. U, but go to tylerdane.com and then you can pick where where to go next. >> Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. This has been great. This has been a good uh and you turned the tables on us, which is like I think in all the interviews we've done, I think that's only happened maybe one other time and that was we we slapped them down last time and then and kept asking him questions. So, this was this has actually been great more. I I read I'm excited to dig into your book and I think you guys um are kindred spirits except you have a little more um head start on me. So, I was excited to hear from you guys. So, yeah, this was fun. Let's stay in touch. >> Oh, definitely. We may have you come back on and ask us, you know, ask us questions in the future. So, maybe we'll flip the tables and say, "Okay, you get to interview us and see how that one goes." >> Yeah, take a day off. Let me let me hope so. >> Yeah, that'll be great. We'll have to try that one. So, uh, thank you so much for your time and all of you guys that are out there, thank you for for listening in. We'll have all those links in the show notes and, uh, we will be back next episode with another interview and continue on how to help you move forward. We're we're getting into this whole idea of of forward motion and momentum and sometimes just a step or two a day is all you need to start making very long advances in your journey. Go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week and we will talk to you next time. >> So now bonus period time uh because we're still here everybody that's out there on the YouTube world. Um, I think we'll go with the somebody's starting out that starting out starting out. They said, "Hey, I'm a developer and I think I've got a product idea after what you've from what you've learned." What would be your your your advice to them? I was just talking to a founder um today and he's embodying this idea of being a forward deployed engineer and that's like a hot term now but it comes from I think Palunteer who um made it a practice of having their engineers like go on site with people and then they'd solve their problem uh or they'd talk to them, they'd shadow them, then they'd go home and at night they would code and then they'd come back the next morning and show it to them and then they just keep doing that. Um, and so he's doing that now except he doesn't have a product. He's just pitching or he's just asking and talking to people and when the opportunity presents he pitches an idea as if he had it. But now that it's so trivial to create product, he's just focused all on um the messaging on the customers and distribution, making sure what he's saying like lands. And um he's doing that. I love the idea. I'm I'm doing that. I'm moving out to San Francisco right now to be closer to the engineers um to talk to them and to listen to them. So, I feel like leaning more towards that way and starting there instead of starting on product is is the way to go. But then once you do go on the product, making it like as lightweight and as quick and um uh as quick to deploy as possible, which is the same old advice, but I think it's just even more important now that you can you can get a product halfway there just in run one prompt. Um it just makes sense to start with start with the people you're trying to help. >> Yeah, that's that is excellent. I think it really is it goes back to as we we often talk about like start with your why. Why am I building this? What am I what am I gonna who am I going to serve? What is this actually going to do? And yeah, it's it really is it's it's gotten crazy how easy it is to build to put the the app together now. So, you might as well do it right as just make sure from the start, put those pieces in place, get the guard rails there so that you can, you know, put something together that's high quality further down the road and worry more about talking to your customers and and getting out there and getting in front of people than actually writing the code because that's almost literally the code writes itself these days. >> Yeah, literally. That's crazy. >> I know. It's like it is. It is. It's been a wild ride. I've seen it come from like I just I started just after punch cards. So, it's been a long way to what we what it used to take to generate code versus what we can throw together in apps almost immediately now. >> So, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for for hanging out with us. Uh definitely we'll keep in touch and uh may like I said, we may have you come back or something like that. I think definitely want to keep up with how you're doing and um if I haven't already, I don't know if I have, but I'll we'll reach out on LinkedIn and see if we can catch you there and and connect up. And uh like I said, shoot us an email anytime or anything like that if you if you got questions or if you want to even off camera sit down and and have a discussion about what we can do to you know any recommendations we have or feedback or sounding board. >> Cool. Yeah, I got some good notes. Um I'll read the book, maybe I'll shoot you an email with my thoughts after that. Um but yeah, happy to stay stay in touch and thanks for your time, too. >> Okay, cool. Thanks a lot. Have a good one and enjoy your your time out on the West Coast. >> Thank you. Take care. >> You too.
Transcript Segments
Well, hello and welcome back. We are
continuing our season. We were looking
at ways to get unstuck and to move
forward and to get that forward momentum
and all the important things that are
required to get across the finish line.
But more importantly, because this is
who we are, we are developer. We are the
building better developers podcast. I am
Rob Broadhead, one of the founders of
developer, also the founder of RB
Consulting, where we help you leverage
technology to do business better. Good
thing and bad thing. I'm going to start
with the bad thing. I got out of 2025
and was so busy that I was not able to
do all that I wanted to do for 2025. I
was there's all of my normal year-end
planning and all the stuff I like to do.
Did not get it all done. I've got it
just spilled right into 2026. The good
news is for all of you, one of the
things I did get done is revamp the
entire developor website. So if you go
out there, it's going to look different.
That's on purpose. That's not because we
got hacked or anything like that and
have done a lot to change particularly
the navigation and add some pieces there
to just make it a little easier
depending on what you want to do on the
developer nurse site to go do it. We
also have all of our links and have
tested everything out. So you can join
the newsletter, you can go out and you
can check us out on uh YouTube. You can
subscribe wherever you want to subscribe
as a podcast. We yanked some of the
stuff like Google Play that doesn't
exist anymore. We pulled that stuff off.
We have, you know, clean new about us
pages if you want to see what myself and
my co-host co-host or co-host that is
about to introduce himself. Uh what
we're doing uh some of the apps that
we've gotten out there over time that
you guys can play around with and uh all
the good ways to give us feedback.
That was a lot. But now I'm going to
pass it on to Michael. Go ahead and
introduce yourself.
>> Hey everyone, my name is Michael Malash.
one of the co-founders of developer
building better developers. I'm also the
founder of Invision Q8 where we build
and test custom software divi designed
around your business. That way you can
focus on running your business and
scaling it. Uh good thing, bad thing.
I'll start with the bad thing as well. I
will say 2025 uh really was a struggle
of a year. Just too many things going on
at once. too many long weeks, too many
long hours, and ran into that uh old
trap that we run into as developers
where you run into burnout. And I I ran
into a high anxiety level of burnout
where I was always on, never off. And uh
so going into 2026, I have been able to
identify that. And thankfully, a lot of
the things that were causing that have
kind of gone away and I've been able to
reset and things are finally getting
back to where I feel normal again.
One of the things that causes him
anxiety that is not going away is me.
I'm still going to be here.
Unfortunately for him, so he still has
struggles. So, you will still hear bad
things from Michael every week. But
right now, we have a very good thing as
we're going to return to our
conversation with Tyler Dayne. This was
a really good one. He uh if you're
watching out on YouTube, you will have
noted that he actually even said
beforehand, "Hey, I read the book or I'm
starting to read the book and I I love
what you guys are doing. I think this is
a really good fit." And it turns out he
really is uh one of these people. He's
one of you. He is one of the people that
we do this for. He's like a perfect fit,
the perfect avatar for why we do
development or why building better
developers even started. And so this has
been a it's a great conversation and
there's more. So, pencils up, start
taking notes because we are about ready
to to drop a few bombs of knowledge. Uh,
he's got a couple great u suggestions
that he has. So, make sure you don't
miss those. Worst case, if you do,
rewind and and listen to it the second
time and make sure you get it so you
don't miss it. That being said, let's
dive right back in where we left off
with Tyler Dayne.
>> Okay. I have I have one more existential
question I want to ask you guys and then
I'll um then I'll sit back. So, let me
give me some time to set this up. But
from my context, I spend a lot of time
like exercising. That's that's what I'm
into these days. And it's very
straightforward what you have to do. You
have to eat less. Uh then you burn. You
have to train hard. Your muscles grow if
they have enough protein and you sleep
well. Um if you get like sunlight,
that's good for you. Social life, like
it's it's very clear what you have to do
and you just do it long enough and then
you get better. And so that's very
appealing to a certain type of person
like me who just like wants to grind and
put his head down and just okay I'll
follow the plan I get better awesome.
When I apply that going out of an
full-time engineering role into the
entrepreneurship role there's a trap
because like you guys were saying you
are given that kind of plan when you're
an engineer. You're like here are the
requirements here's your constraints you
have 40 hours a week 50 60 whatever. um
here are the people you have on your
team. Uh make it happen and then you can
just focus on the intellectual work, the
the coding, the making happen and just
putting your head down. And what I'm
hearing is you guys saying uh you have
to make space for other inputs,
customers being in the wrong market. Um,
and so yeah, like you said, I'm on my
third iteration of trying to figure out
a way to make this work where I can't
just say I'm gonna code for 10 hours a
day cuz then I'll code a bunch of
features no one wants. U, but it's also
tricky to say, I'm just going to talk to
20 people a day cuz then I'm drowning in
feedback. I don't actually make
anything. And I would just put this to
you guys like if you were in my shoes,
how would you think about balancing
those those two mindsets?
I think that's an that's an excellent
question and that is often the the
challenge and it's it's one we've talked
about. It's one we struggle with. I I
have a uh a self-built app similar to
what you I get maybe similar to what
you're building. Um that was
specifically came out of me wanting to
make sure that I'm I've got checks and
balances on balancing my time properly
and focusing on what we we often refer
to as working in your business versus on
your business. the things that are, you
know, coding versus uh sales and
marketing. And I think it it does vary a
little bit from from person to person
and and product to product, how much
input you can you can take before you
get, you know, overwhelmed basically and
also how far you can code where before
you've sort of run off the pier and now
you're not you've sort of run out of
you're doing you're making it up as you
go a little bit as opposed to getting
some good feedback. So I think it's very
much a it is very much a a planning
problem is is sitting down and thinking
about okay well what do I what do I have
in front of me? What is it I want to get
to version you know it's it's almost
like any business like what is what is
my why? What is version 1.0 that I want
to get out the door? What does 1.0 look
like right now? Well here's you know 10
10 features that 1.0 is going to have.
What's it going to take to get here?
Okay, then I can use that and I can at
least build out a schedule from a coding
point of view and say this is how I get
there. Now, what you need to do is is
say, okay, if that's what I'm going to
do, you need to make sure that you've
got buffer in there. So, let's say you
you originally planned it because I'm a
developer, so I'm going to work 80 hours
a week. Okay, great. You've just signed
yourself up for 80 hours a week. Well,
the first thing you do is you're a
developer, so double all your estimates
because we always underestimate things.
So now and then we always I think we
often often also overestimate what we
can get done in a week. So cut it back
down to you know a 40hour work week or
better yet like a 30-hour work week and
then set aside uh hour like there's a
couple ways to do it. I found it works
sometimes really well to say like I'm
going to start each day doing networking
and and marketing. I'm working on my
business. Uh, or I'm going to end the
day with that or I'm going to do it in
the middle of the day. That'll be like
my lunch break every day. I'm working on
that. So that you and you want to get
it. And I'm like you. I like having that
that regular schedule. Something that I
can just sort of fall back on so that if
I wake up in the morning and I really
don't know what I've got to do, I have
like this structure to fall into and
say, "Okay, it's 9:00. I'm going to go
do this."
That or set aside a day. I've often seen
people that are like, "Okay, Monday
through Thursday I'm coding and then
Friday and which is not a bad idea if
you're if you think of like a an agile
or a sprint approach is that you you
know like maybe every other Friday or
every Friday you code through a
Thursday. You go sit down and do a lot
of networking. You talk to a lot of
people. you you you know light up a
bunch of calls and then that you come in
Monday and you go, "Okay, now I'm going
to take the feedback that I got Friday
and I'm going to be integrating that
into my work this week and then when I
get to Friday I'll have something new."
You know, something like that. I think
sprints work really well for that from a
product development point of view. I've
used personal sprints where I say I set
stuff up in two or three week uh cycles
basically and say, "All right, I'm going
to be coding here. I'm going to be doing
some testing here. I'm going to be doing
some networking here. I'm going to, you
know, test deployments and and put
something out. I'm going to write some
marketing material. I'm going to go
chase down the the administrative stuff,
you know, during each of those times.
And that allows you to uh from a
technology point of view, a lot of
people hear, you know, hear about
technical debt. It allows you to avoid
essentially technical debt and even
business debt, which is, trust me, that
is that's one of the killers. It's easy
to sit down and write for go code for 10
hours. It's not as easy when you're
like, "Okay, now I got to go beat the
bushes and find some people to talk to
about my product for eight or 10 hours."
Michael, your thoughts?
>> Yeah. So, I'll go back a little bit more
because you've touched on a lot of the
technical side, the developer side,
things like that. So, going back given
depending upon where you're at with your
business, how many talk a little bit
more working on your business uh than in
your business. Um, given that you're
building this product, you have this
idea, you're trying to build something
custom and you're trying to find the
right customer and identify who your
customer is and what features they need
solved. This is where maybe at your
current stage, and a lot of people kind
of skip this step, is maybe do a little
additional market research. uh while
you're working on your product, maybe
put out some questionnaires,
join some like online uh groups or go to
some networking conferences. Talk about
the problem. Don't talk about the
product. Talk about the problem. Is this
a problem that these people are having
what basically okay you're struggling
with this problem? What would make your
life better? ask them how they would
solve their own problem and see if your
product kind of falls within that niche
and then you could start asking
questions. Well, okay, if you had this,
how would you use this or you know, how
would this solve your problem? So, doing
a little more
uh I guess customer research or product
research even while you're developing
the product is still a good idea. And
the kind of the flip side of that is I
know um you know we've thrown out like
you know work 80 hours a week. Okay,
I'll code for 80 hours a week. That's
not sustainable. One thing I can attest
to this and Rob knows this is we go
through cycles. We go have seasons where
yes we are hyperfocused as developers.
We can sit down and code for hours. The
problem is if we do that we tend to lose
focus of the business. We're more down
you're so far down in the weeds you lose
the big picture. Try to schedule at
least 15 minutes a day, maybe at the
beginning of the day and at the end of
the day where you refocus on your
business. What is it that I'm doing? Who
is my customer? What am I trying to
solve? Then go into the business and
work on it. That way you're coming in
with the mindset of here's the big
picture. Yes, I'm still down in the
weeds, but I don't lose that big
picture. And then you don't lose focus
on your customer. That helps with kind
of the scope creep and kind of throwing
in features that may not be what your
customer wants and you're wasting time.
That also leads into kind of like your
return on investment, your time. So
you've left the you know the corporate
America. You're you are have to work for
a paycheck. You have to sell your
application because you're not getting
paid. So your time is your commodity.
So, you want to make sure that you're
focused on what is going to move your
product forward. Now, yes, you could
spend 80 hours a week, but is that the
best use of your time or is it getting
out and talking to your customers, doing
that research, figuring out what you
need, get that small MVP out the door,
and then uh I don't know what your
pricing model is, but maybe offer the
application for free. Give a free base
product. Let them play around with it.
Get the feedback. find the right
customers and then double down on the
customers that it fits and then focus on
them and see if you can build your
product, you know, within that silo or
within that funnel.
>> I will follow up on that is it's one
more thing is while you're having those
conversations, it's really nice to have
those while you're building out your
application because those conversations
end up becoming what your your marketing
message is. as you start out with things
like, "Hey, what kind of problems? What
are some of the pains that you're having
that this will solve? What are the
things that you where do you see this
being useful? Where do you see it not
being useful?" Well, as you're
tightening that up and addressing their
concerns, you can start flipping that a
little bit and say, "Hey, are you
suffering from this problem? Hey, is
this something that is a a pain that you
see see on a, you know, on a regular
basis?" And that becomes then as you do
it, not only is your um your product is
sort of like evolving into solving those
specific problems and answering those
questions, but now your marketing also
is going to be like that because now
you're getting used to talking about
what are the in the language that people
understand what are the problems they're
suffering through and here's the
solution and refining what that solution
sounds like. So people will hear this
thing hurts. You know that oh I have
this hurt. this guy understands it
because he just asked me about it and
then he brought me a gave me a solution
that I'm like, "Yeah, that definitely
will solve my hurt." And so you, you
know, you really are going to be able to
progress your your marketing and
branding along with your product as you
do it.
>> Man, where were you guys on my first
iteration? I needed to come on the show
years ago. That was awesome. Um, what
I'm hearing is a couple themes are
sticking out. Um, one is creating that
cycle. So you talked about like your
build work and then you go out and then
you listen and then you update the build
or you talked about in terms of the
calendar like structuring your time with
recurring time blocks with different
things you're doing. Um and that's
something that uh I've also come to that
same conclusion. One of my big mistakes
was um trying to port over the same
mindset that people took in say like a
sports domain into the business domain.
So, I love listening into like medalists
and champions and there's this video of
Michael Phelps that's forever stuck in
my brain and the reporter was like,
"How'd you do it?" Um, and he's just
like, "Well, I just swam every day for 6
years straight and didn't take a day
off." And that blew my mind. And then
I'd hear interviews from Kobe talking
about doing four workouts a day. And I I
looked up to those guys and I felt like
that was so appealing. I didn't realize
is those guys, especially Phelps, he
he's in total control of his sport. He's
moving his body. Like that's the
product. He's totally in control. Kobe
has four other teammates at a time he
has to kind of coordinate with, but
that's just four other teammates. And us
uh like we're out with the marketplace
in the world and we need to listen to
these people. And so it's I had to learn
that it's not like all about me and it's
not all about just getting the weight
room and doing the reps or eating the
food. It's about creating space to find
out if I'm even making something
helpful. If people want it, what's the
language I can use to get through to
them? Is there a better use of my time
that will be more help? It's basically
like getting out of this idea of being
like self-centered and that's hard for
someone who's who wants to be an
entrepreneur cuz it is an egoic
endeavor. Uh so to balance that that
feeling of wanting to be a creator and
being in control and um seeing it your
way while also like serving someone and
just shutting up and listening and
balancing that and finding the
structures to do that was like it took
me so long to figure that out. Um, so
hearing you guys reaffirm that is gives
me a lot of confidence that that was
really cool.
>> Yeah, I think the the exercise analogy
is actually not a bad one is because
there's um, you know, if you've got
especially very high-end athletes, there
there will be very specific routines uh,
workout routines that they will do based
on their sport and and how they're doing
it, even maybe their position. So like a
a quarterback in football is going to be
have a very different routine than a
linebacker and things like that. And I
think that's something to think about
and and something to ask yourself as a
business owner and this goes a little
bit to what Michael said about making
sure that you're making the best use of
your time is it's like is this exercise
I'm doing something that actually helps
my business or is it something that I'm
just doing it and I'm you know I'm just
building muscles but is it are they
muscles that matter? And I think that
goes to the, you know, trying to
distinguish between being that, you
know, being that entrepreneur and
knowing that you have the weight of the,
you know, the company on you and that
you have to be a, you know, you have to
be a self-starter, you have to drive
things, but also sharing that with the
service mentality of you. If you're not
in it to serve somebody else, if you're
not in it to serve your customer, then
you're probably not going to succeed.
And I' I've read books and and seen
interviews with a lot of people that are
in the service industry and some of the
things they do and and their mindset in
that that is very much I think useful in
the in actually in in any business is to
understand that you're always in the
service business service industry no
matter what it is you're building and
this goes back so you have to listen to
your customer. You don't always customer
isn't always right but the customer is
their input is always valuable is always
actually almost invaluable. you want
that you want to find a way to make that
work with your product and sometimes it
may be something that that it's
invaluable only because you know okay
this is not a customer I want to serve
so I want to make sure I don't uh you
know suggest that I'm going to serve
this kind of customer because I don't
want to go there I don't want to do that
I don't want to be that product so some
it's almost like negative marketing it's
saying yeah this is great however if
you're this person this person this
person it's not this is horrible don't
buy it go bot you like you said go go go
go go go go use Google calendar or
something like that
>> and also speaking to the exercise uh
mentality here one of the biggest
mistakes I see a lot of developers doing
especially if they're leaving corporate
for the first time and that's kind of
all they've known you you've known
either waterfall you know agile you know
how to build products you don't know how
to run a business so you have to expand
your exercises. You have to include
additional steps and tools into your
daily routine. You have to expand that
agile model to include your business.
You have to include things like
marketing, customers, sales. Yeah, you
have to expand your focus and exercise
those. If you are literally just coming
from software development and trying to
launch a company, you better be spending
a little more time on the business side
of things, understanding how a business
works, how to run a business, how to
talk to customers, how to do that
research, and a little less time on the
code just so that you make sure that the
product you're building that you can
launch that, that you can sell that
product, that that product's not going
to be dead on arrival. Because if you
just sit in a room and write something
and code it and then come out and say,
"Hey, I have this product." You haven't
done the market research, you don't know
who to talk to, you're going to be
shouting in a very loud room and no
one's going to hear you. So, it's one of
those where you just have to expand your
tool set. You have to exercise other
skills to launch your business and be
successful.
>> Yeah. building that that skill or that
muscle is um something that um is
obvious now but I there's a trap that I
fell into it with um with my career
where um I was good at it early and then
I became a senior engineer, a lead
engineer like and then I had a team and
then I had people looking up to me and
every word I said in these meetings they
would all shut up and listen and they
would do whatever I said and they think,
"Oh my god, Tyler the Oracle is here.
We're going to figure it out. it's going
to be fine. So, I felt like I could do
no wrong and it was harder for me to
start I I had maxed out that skill of
like engineering and creating product
and shipping um the code and I was more
reluctant to work those muscles of like
just listening to people getting better
at marketing and I think that is a point
for uh the argument that it's better to
do it sooner even if you're not
financially like as stable as you will
be in 5 or 10 it because your ego has a
way of strengthening alongside with
those skills and it's it I found it
harder to build a well-rounded skill set
when I was so maxed out on one which
maybe goes back to Rob's point about um
side hustling or getting something going
on uh along the way when the stakes are
lower. Um, but just cuz you're a 10 out
of 10 at one skill set doesn't mean
you're going to get there with the
other. And just letting the other
muscles or skills go dormant for too
long. Um, actually makes it harder to
get to you get to that point of
competency when you have like as a
system you can work well. Uh, so a
lesson I learned the the hard way is to
get a little too overconfident cuz I was
so good at one thing. uh and thinking
that it would apply directly to another
thing when it just doesn't work like
that.
>> Yeah. Unfortunately, that's I think some
of the best lessons learned in life are
the ones where we we stumble and fall
like that where we we feel like we're,
you know, invincible and then we realize
that oh now we're in a different you
know we're in a different pool, we're in
a different ballpark or however you want
to look at it and what we have or what
we thought we had doesn't translate
completely. Uh but it does and it will
almost everything will translate
somewhat. So, I think that is a that's
an invaluable skill to have is to is to
have the um the wisdom, I guess, to be
able to look at a situation and
especially when it's one that's not a a
perfect fit for your strengths, but to
say, "Okay, well, how can I step in into
this and help?" And it does come back
very often to it's you start by
listening is you start by you know not
it's sort of like I like to think of as
like Superman coming in dressed as Clark
Kent and so like yes you can go do this
thing very well but being very subtle
about it or not telegraphing it and let
everybody else in the room sort of
figure stuff out and then you can come
back and sort of you know say oh okay
let's let's walk through this solution
because it is it's a challenge if you go
into your own company like being the
owner, the founder, the CEO, the
president, whatever your title is, when
you start talking to people, it changes.
It changes how people look at you. It
changes how people hear you. And you
have to if if you're looking for
feedback, if you're looking for a team
approach, then you have to change how
you do things so that you don't just
drive everybody, you know, forward. If
you want to truly scale who you are, you
need to figure out how to sometimes let
people do it not as well as you would do
it. And then also a huge huge part of
the the happiness part of being as we
grow through this is figuring out what
we like and what we don't like and
figure out how to find people that can
do the things we don't like that they
and not because we're shoving it off on
it but because they like it. It's like
this is, you know, it's finding your own
niche and then finding the niche of the
people around you and figure out how to
use that uh and and turn that chemistry
into a team.
>> Yeah. That being said, I we've like I
guess we'll switch back and we'll
actually ask you a question again before
we jump.
>> Sorry, I could ask you guys questions.
>> This was great. I think this is u and
the fact that you've you've gotten a lot
of feedback out of this is is really
awesome. Uh that you got some some stuff
that you've you know that you can now
take with you. But I want to go to what
you have learned because you've you you
know this is now your third time. So,
I'm wondering um what like what is one
thing maybe that you would go back the
first time that you jumped out into
this? What is you know one thing that
you would say to yourself or one thing
that you would do differently that you
think would drastically move the needle
from that first time around?
>> Okay, this is going to be a practical
free tip um that is actually insanely
powerful and I'm going to pull it up
right here to show you that I got it.
it's journaling or writing writing
things down. And I don't mean in a scrap
piece of paper and then throwing it
away. I like a journal because then you
have to look back at it and you can
detect your own BS. So, you could just
do it like that, but I'm going to give
you some other options. Um, if you want
a system around it, like you want some
structure, uh, I recommend bullet
journaling. They they have like a it's a
lightweight framework around how to
structure things in the page um that you
can learn in 10 minutes. it's not as
like fancy as it sounds. Or if you just
want to be like you're you're more of
that grinder or the the workhorse um
type, there's a notebook called one line
a day and it's 5 years um and so each
page is a different calendar day and so
you see it for 5 years. So I will see
January 6, 2026, January 6, 2027, 28,
29, 30. And the benefit of that is uh
you the bar is so low just to write one
line a day. Like you can do that before
bed, but once you get to the second year
and the third and the fourth and the
fifth, you can see your BS from previous
years just automatically.
And there's nothing as like eyeopening
as seeing yourself uh lie to yourself
for two years in a row or three years in
a row like on the same day about the
same thing or seeing yourself slowly
stray spending time with the wrong
people or working on the wrong feature
or just putting your head down for
months on end. And just watching that
play out uh as like a third person is um
like the best therapy or startup advice
or uh knowledge like that you need is
just having a mirror to detect your own
BS. And um I think that would have
helped me correct some of my my errors a
little sooner on those first two
attempts because the longer it takes to
learn those lessons just the more
expensive it's going to be and the
harder it's going to be to to get to the
product market fit. Um so that would be
my advice. Just write stuff down and
look at it basically. Be honest.
>> Yeah, that is uh that's an awesome I
don't think we've talked about that
enough but I think journ I'm I'm a fan
of journaling as well. um doing daily
journals and be able to look back
through those and and sort of see the
evolution of of things like that. Um
yeah, I' I highly recommend that. And
that's I have not heard of um either of
those and I think I'll probably take a
look into those and see if that's
something I may try, especially like
that one line. That sounds like that
would be a really fun uh exercise to do
over time. You know, the first year,
like I said, it's it's just you're
taking notes, but as you get further
into it, I think to see how that change,
the evolution, or maybe where you
haven't, maybe where you're stuck, uh,
that is a great way to do it. For those
that would love to to figure out how to
to be more productive and to to work
with you, to talk about your product,
what are some of the best ways for them
to get a hold of you?
>> It's a choose your own adventure, but
uh, it all starts at tylerdane.com.
That'll link to my other places. Um, so
if you're right now my whole life is
centered around, like I said, being
healthy and then helping engineers just
like you guys. So if you're an engineer
and you like watching stuff, I got a
YouTube. If you like reading stuff, I
got an engineer focused newsletter. And
if you want like a tool that's centered
around the things that we talked about
today, I got an app for you. Um, open
source, free right now in beta. U, but
go to tylerdane.com and then you can
pick where where to go next.
>> Awesome. Well, thank you so much for
your time. This has been great. This has
been a good uh and you turned the tables
on us, which is like I think in all the
interviews we've done, I think that's
only happened maybe one other time and
that was we we slapped them down last
time and then and kept asking him
questions. So, this was this has
actually been great
more. I I read I'm excited to dig into
your book and I think you guys um are
kindred spirits except you have a little
more um head start on me. So, I was
excited to hear from you guys. So, yeah,
this was fun. Let's stay in touch.
>> Oh, definitely. We may have you come
back on and ask us, you know, ask us
questions in the future. So, maybe we'll
flip the tables and say, "Okay, you get
to interview us and see how that one
goes."
>> Yeah, take a day off. Let me let me hope
so.
>> Yeah, that'll be great. We'll have to
try that one. So, uh, thank you so much
for your time and all of you guys that
are out there, thank you for for
listening in. We'll have all those links
in the show notes and, uh, we will be
back next episode with another interview
and continue on how to help you move
forward. We're we're getting into this
whole idea of of forward motion and
momentum and sometimes just a step or
two a day is all you need to start
making very long advances in your
journey. Go out there and have yourself
a great day, a great week and we will
talk to you next time.
>> So now bonus period time uh because
we're still here everybody that's out
there on the YouTube world. Um, I think
we'll go with the
somebody's starting out that starting
out starting out. They said, "Hey, I'm a
developer and I think I've got a product
idea after what you've from what you've
learned." What would be your your your
advice to them?
I was just talking to a founder um today
and he's embodying this idea of being a
forward deployed engineer and that's
like a hot term now but it comes from I
think Palunteer who um made it a
practice of having their engineers like
go on site with people and then they'd
solve their problem uh or they'd talk to
them, they'd shadow them, then they'd go
home and at night they would code and
then they'd come back the next morning
and show it to them and then they just
keep doing that. Um, and so he's doing
that now except he doesn't have a
product. He's just pitching or he's just
asking and talking to people and when
the opportunity presents he pitches an
idea as if he had it. But now that it's
so trivial to create product, he's just
focused all on um the messaging on the
customers and distribution, making sure
what he's saying like lands. And um he's
doing that. I love the idea. I'm I'm
doing that. I'm moving out to San
Francisco right now to be closer to the
engineers um to talk to them and to
listen to them. So, I feel like leaning
more towards that way and starting there
instead of starting on product is is the
way to go. But then once you do go on
the product, making it like as
lightweight and as quick and um uh as
quick to deploy as possible, which is
the same old advice, but I think it's
just even more important now that you
can you can get a product halfway there
just in run one prompt. Um it just makes
sense to start with start with the
people you're trying to help.
>> Yeah, that's that is excellent. I think
it really is it goes back to as we we
often talk about like start with your
why. Why am I building this? What am I
what am I gonna who am I going to serve?
What is this actually going to do? And
yeah, it's it really is it's it's gotten
crazy how easy it is to build to put the
the app together now. So, you might as
well do it right as just make sure from
the start, put those pieces in place,
get the guard rails there so that you
can, you know, put something together
that's high quality further down the
road and worry more about talking to
your customers and and getting out there
and getting in front of people than
actually writing the code because that's
almost literally the code writes itself
these days.
>> Yeah, literally. That's crazy.
>> I know. It's like it is. It is. It's
been a wild ride. I've seen it come from
like I just I started just after punch
cards. So, it's been a long way to what
we what it used to take to generate code
versus what we can throw together in
apps almost immediately now.
>> So, thank you so much for your time.
Thanks for for hanging out with us. Uh
definitely we'll keep in touch and uh
may like I said, we may have you come
back or something like that. I think
definitely want to keep up with how
you're doing and um if I haven't
already, I don't know if I have, but
I'll we'll reach out on LinkedIn and see
if we can catch you there and and
connect up. And uh like I said, shoot us
an email anytime or anything like that
if you if you got questions or if you
want to even off camera sit down and and
have a discussion about what we can do
to you know any recommendations we have
or feedback or sounding board.
>> Cool. Yeah, I got some good notes. Um
I'll read the book, maybe I'll shoot you
an email with my thoughts after that. Um
but yeah, happy to stay stay in touch
and thanks for your time, too.
>> Okay, cool. Thanks a lot. Have a good
one and enjoy your your time out on the
West Coast.
>> Thank you. Take care.
>> You too.