Detailed Notes
Welcome back to our series on the developer journey. In this episode, we’re diving into an essential topic: how to gather and leverage feedback to win more projects after completing your first one or any subsequent project. Whether you're a seasoned developer or just starting, understanding how to use feedback effectively can transform your career.
Read More ... https://develpreneur.com/turning-feedback-into-future-success-a-guide-for-developers
Stay Connected: Join the Developreneur Community
We invite you to join our community and share your coding journey with us. Whether you’re a seasoned developer or just starting, there’s always room to learn and grow together. Contact us at [email protected] with your questions, feedback, or suggestions for future episodes. Together, let’s continue exploring the exciting world of software development.
Additional Resources
* Feedback And Career Help – Does The Bootcamp Provide It? (https://develpreneur.com/feedback-and-career-help-does-the-bootcamp-provide-it/)
* Embrace Feedback for Better Teams (https://develpreneur.com/embrace-feedback-for-better-teams/)
* Maximizing Developer Effectiveness: Feedback Loops (https://develpreneur.com/maximizing-developer-effectiveness-feedback-loops/)
* Updating Developer Tools: Keeping Your Tools Sharp and Efficient (https://develpreneur.com/updating-developer-tools-keeping-your-tools-sharp-and-efficient/)
Transcript Text
[Music] hello we're back as far as you know anyways we are back here we've hit record sometimes we do these back toback sometimes we don't you probably could tell if you pay a little attention but maybe not it depends there's like there's Clues little Easter eggs there to figure out what we're doing when we're doing it and how we batch them together that being said uh we are on to today's podcast and I think what we want to do last episode we talked about winning your first project and so this is sort of that followup that I think this is really what spark the idea is let's now talk about um feedback from your first project and and making that work and you know getting that uh getting out there how do you get it and then how do you utilize that for the next one around does that sound good does that make sense yeah no uh it especially touches on you know some of the things that I've been going through I think you as well within the business because you know as we complete the projects we need to know how we did so we can make it right the next time some something went wrong here we go and we are talking about post project stuff okay well hello and welcome back we are continuing our season where we're talking about the developer journey and we're sort of continuing from last episode this time we're going to talk about once you've won your first project once you've completed your first project or honestly any project how do we get feedback what do we do how do we take that and spin it into more work into the next project that we win but before we carry on I want to introduce myself my name is Rob Broadhead I'm one of the founders of developing or also known as building better developers it has its own story how we got there and a founder of RB Consulting where we do software development custom and also integration stuff so we simplify integrate automate make your life easier get rid of Technology sprawl and all of the thing that happens things that happens that are not positive when you've got like 40 different applications that you're trying to deal with on the other side is just one application You' have to deal with and his name is Mike but he's going to introduce himself hey everyone I'm Michael milash founder of Invision QA and co-founder of developer ner here at Invision QA we help businesses analyze understand their current technology Stacks help build custom software and we also help write integration test and testing tools to help make sure that their software development is clear and that you release quality software without bugs well we are going to release a quality podcast with two bugs talking for the next however long we go on it and what I really want to talk about is it it's like finding a way to get something out of there are there are obvious things where you can say hey at the end of a project or maybe at the beginning of project you say hey I want a reference so at the end of the project you're like hey need a reference but references are generic in a sense that's sort of a big you know open like what's a reference it could be as simple as like hey Mike's a great guy check him out okay that's not very helpful what is actually helpful and I thought about this one because Mike asked me not too long ago about like hey what are you know how do you do this how do you go about this and that got me thinking because I really through my career have not used references I don't lead with them and that's probably on me that's probably not a good thing so this is something I've done that is a don't do like I do because I don't think it's it helps me as much I've usually waited for a reference and when somebody's asked for it or requested it the thing is those references have always been very good those have always helped those have like dragged me across the Finish Line many many times and so that's why I probably should have led with those more now one of the things I do when I'm proposing uh when I put project proposals out now on a regular basis uh and part of it is because it's very easy now upwork allows you to easily Post in feedback from prior projects so I can go back and look through stuff and you know grab some so that's like a it's like a quote that you're going to see on a website where it's like hey check out this guy's work or gal's work and you know here's five people that said this and this and this and this and this about them and that was actually something did in a recent retooling redoing of the RB Consulting site is I put a couple little quotes down there as not quite quotes but it's you know stuff people has said us have things people have said about us and then they're not full quotes because that's where I'm going to go back and reach out to some people and say hey is it okay if I put this on the site um I've left it you know generic right now but it's good stuff and that's the key to it is what is good stuff the whole process of winning a project starts with you basically somebody's out there they need question they need a problem solve they have questions they need answered they come to you and some either directly or through a site or something like that it's like hey I have this problem to be solved so what do you do you're answering their questions basically you're saying hey you can do this you can do this or here's a solution for your problem ideally when you get done the reference should continue that story so it should be along the lines of I needed problem a solved I went to Mike Mike said this Mike provided this kind of solution it worked great it was awesome I love working with them blah blah blah and then you have something is valuable now the keys to this is you need to make sure that the the problem or the either the problem that you solved is a part of that reference or the question or questions you answered are part of that because that's what's going to really resonate with the reader if you say you if youve got a reference that says you know um Rob did a great job helping Mr musk build a rocket ship and you're like I'm trying to build a CRM doesn't really help does it you're going to look at you're like I don't care I don't care if he I don't care what he built it doesn't help me in this and this is where niches become part of you or that you need to be aware of them at least is things like hey you and this where it it also needs to have a couple of details to make sure that it is relatable if you just say you know Rob built some cool software for us and he did it in on time and it was on budget and we love working with them yeah that's awesome but it really doesn't resonate because if I'm coming to you and saying I need you to to build a time card entry Pro program for me and the reference doesn't mention time card entry doesn't mention you know a technology stack doesn't mention anything that helps me that relates to me then it's a useless reference so when you're doing a reference one make sure that it has those kinds of details where it talks about the questions that are answered or the problems that are solved and ideally if you can do that in a way where there are multiple details because almost never is there going to be a project where you're just solving one problem and you just did it and that's it there's usually multiple problems there's multiple facets to it so it may be for example instead of Michael built a really cool CRM for us it would be something more the lines of we were struggling we were using a custom CRM that had gotten out of date Michael helped us figure out what we had helped us migrate our data us design a new one and now we use this for our company of 200 people we do this on a daily use this on a daily basis it was easy to maintain and was done you know on time on budget there's a lot of details in there that can resonate with a reader so that's what you want well you want it to be you don't need like you don't want a book because you they're not going to read a book but if you can have some bullet points like that that's key and maybe even what you do is you have you know maybe you look at a reference and you've got 10 bullet point items that you could pull out of them in any given response or uh you know email whether it's a responding to an email or maybe it's a proposal or something like that maybe only use three or four of those bullet points because those are going to sing to the whoever the the person is on the other side that's going to really resonate to them they're going to say oh that's exactly what I'm looking for and that's why we've talked in the past about having for example multiple types of resumés where you take your all your stuff you've done and you use it in a language that really communicates more to that specific audience if you're trying to build a a custom application you should have you know some wording and some references that are and things that are built based on that if it's uh enhancing the existing one you're going to have slightly different it could be from the same project but you're going to emphasize things differently so when you're looking for that reference and yes see I did come back around with the point I did get totally lost when you're asking for that reference you you can start with that's how you start with just say hey I really enjoyed the work could you give me a little bit of feedback on this now that helps but if you maybe give them five questions along the lines of and you can look at any rating system and take something like this so it's like how did you you know how did it go overall ideally what you get is what was uh what was the high point what was the low Point what do you think we did great and where do you think we can improve if you ask those one you're going to get honest answers and within that you're probably going to get some two you're going to two things you're going to get the really valuable one you're going to get probably some good reference material on the other side you're going to get some good word do you need to improve material those things combined are how you're really going to Leverage project one into project two and three and four beyond that so thoughts on that I know once again I sort of like Dove right in but last time it worked so well I'm going to let you follow up and see where you go with this all right so you've kind of explaining the whole process and why we want feedback and you kind of walk through the different types of things that we should be asking for feedback from our customers so I'm going to take this a slightly different direction I'm going to take it more of a deeper dive into that process so I literally just went through this with a project I was on and as you went as I went through the whole experience of the statement of work the uh actual doing the assessment walking through completing the assessment the final meeting and then requesting feedback before I went out and did something like Survey Monkey or Google forms or type form where I actually build a nice online questionnaire to get feedback from I walk through the whole process of what it was that we did with the customer because if you're going to be asking for feedback like Rob said you need to ask questions especially if you want testimonials you want to ask them in such a way that if they do give you a testimonial it is reusable or it's helpful for that next project for that next Niche or that next uh customer that you're reaching out for interestingly enough as I went through this process especially uh for me it actually helped me look at what it was that we did overall and it kind of helped me identify areas that were Niche e where I could say hey this is something that would be really good for a future project if someone needs X Y or Z so I walked through and I came up with 10 questions I know Rob said you know a handful of questions but you have your generic ones you know like how' the project go I asked like how is communication you know was there any questions or problems that were found during the process of the project you know what could be done better you know those types of questions but then I took it further I started asking questions more along the lines of the assessment you know what it was what was the problem that we were trying to solve so I asked them you know going into this did you have a clear understanding of your problem their response clearly was no because they had a problem but as by the time we got done with the assessment they we we came up with the issue where they had 42 and we actually needed the question you know what is the answer to life of the Universe and everything you know 42 well what is the question so we ultimately through the process came up with what their problem was we actually defined the problem for them or at least explained to them a way to define the problem that actually became a good question on the survey for a testimonial would you refer this customer to help you understand your business or understand your problem you know are they a good problem solve so it was kind of an interesting way that that came out of the assessment and it wasn't even a survey question I was thinking about at the start of the project some other things to think about as you're going through the process like if you're building an application all right so if you're building a web application from a customer's perspective you know not all customers are technical how can you ask them a question in such a way that they will give you a testimonial or a response that is understandable of what the work that you did or the work that you could provide for someone else so it's a way of unpacking this terminology this technology the these things behind the scenes that we do that the customer doesn't see but we need to get the feedback for what it is that we provided so you have to make sure that you unpack those questions in a way that is you userfriendly reusable and potentially can have metrics to it because the other nice thing at the end as you start building these projects you can actually put a nice little graph on the bottom of your site that says these are the categories that we uh you know do metrics on here's where we stand so like 100% customer support well what does that mean so you would have to then break down what is customer support is that working via the phone working in person solving problems you know you kind of have to break it down more than a high level metrics like Rob said if you just give them a blanket survey you're not going to get good feat back if unless you ask more direct questions it's like well how do we do well you completed the project you did I mean if you ask that open-ended like that you're not going to get a great answer you could get you did great you did lousy uh you know this is where you could improve so you have to kind of break unpack these a little bit more from yes or no and get them into more very deeply defined open-ended questions it's almost like from an interview if you're interviewing someone you don't want to simp simply ask them a yes or no question you want to ask them you know how did you complete this task on X Project you want more details the trick is how do you get these details from a questionnaire or a survey to get the feedback from the customer in a way that makes sense to you and makes sense to actually feedback so that you can make improvements on the project also in addition to that as we went through the feedback process also at the end of the project we came up with additional questions and concerns for the next project or for the potential next uh statement of work that we were to do which led me to additional questions which weren't even on the survey but can be future questions for potential marketing potential customer survey feedback to just put out in groups like on LinkedIn hey are you guys having problem with X or what are your issues here so is another way to kind of go mine your customers or your potential customers and get better feedback as to what is the problem what is it that people need and can your solution do that so this kind of puts you into that Niche area where hey I have this solution how do I get that to people how do I find out if people actually need this solution and that and this is kind of how you go about and find that information start talking to people and get that feedback and that is really the this is where you really start getting into like market research level of stuff now you're going to have customers that are more than talkative that they're they're more than happy to walk through things and there be some that they just want to be like you know what we're done I'm busy I'm not going to give you so too much information and while that's not IDE deal that's okay is what you what you want is you want the customers that are much more you know that are happy to give the feedback that are conversant about it and if you can do it much like Michael did where it's part of a step in the process because like for example it's part of your presentation at the end you're saying hey here's the assessment that we put out that feedback that you're getting the question that you get on what you produced is going to be some of the things that you can maybe utilize whether it's asking them and getting some feedback from them about how you handled it or for the next person to say hey are these some things that you're struggling with are these some questions that have kept you up at night then those are going to help you draw people in the next time around now I do want to I want to before we get you wrap this one up is talk about uh longer term kinds of projects if you've got something that's that's easily to do you know you do it in three six months something like that button up boom it's a nice you know project in a box awesome if it's something where it's ongoing which for example I've had customers that i' we didn't really the project didn't end for literally like 10 years you just sort of like a little here a little here a little here a little here don't be afraid to periodically go back and you know just maybe every six months say how are we doing what's going to do a customer survey of some sort just send it out maybe send it to all your customers that are active and just say hey how are we doing we want to get some feedback what do you think because that's there could be a gold mine of information in there that could be very useful for you now another thing if you're struggling with the like how do I have applicable questions one of the easiest ways to do it is when you first started out you effectively set up some sort of a statement of work or project goals or requirements or something along those lines of like here's the problem we're going to solve here's how we're going to solve it use that at the end to say okay how did we do we said this is what we're going to solve we said this is how we're going to solve it how did we do did we solve it did we solve it the way we wanted to what if it changed how did we handle those changes if it didn't change how did you you know how did you appreciate the uh the process to make sure that we got all of the details also like Michael you know suggested a lot of times there's there's going to be new stuff so how did we help you learn more about that problem how did we educate you you know it's there's a lot of stuff around that that can start with at some point we said here's where we're at and this is where we're going to take you so at the end look back and say how was that Journey how was your ride what is it that we did that we we did right what did we do wrong how do we help you over the you know the hurdles because those are the things that are going to be the we'll call them interview questions at the next project those are going to be the things like hey have you ever done this before and you say yes I did and this is the experience that I had and it doesn't have to be sunshine and Roses you can talk about stuff and say you know what we had this thing it went wrong it went off the rails but this is how we brought it back on the rails and in that we learned how to avoid going off the rails in the future but we also adapted and we made sure that it it worked so that it was uh you it worked for our customers and it didn't cause a whole project to sank final thoughts on this one yeah actually through that last piece you were talking about it it triggered one additional thought we this season are talking about the developer Journey now this is not just about side hustle starting your business this is also your journey through your career through you becoming a better developer some of the points Rob just mentioned can also be applied to a job a corporate job a lot of companies do quarterly reviews with their employees however some companies don't so as you're going through and working on your daily job these are questions and surveys you could even do with your boss with their boss with the project to figure out how things are going in your day-to-day job to progress because if you don't get feedback you don't know if what you're doing is right or not and it applies to your job that applies to your side hustle and that applies to life so take the time to ask for feedback when it makes sense and if you're struggling because you don't know where you're going if you kind of have lost your way or you know you're in that dark tunnel and you can't see the light at the end start asking questions try to get that feedback and this is just an example of how you can go about and do that yeah don't be afraid just you that was the funniest thing is that when I I got Michael's first question was like how do you get feedback and I was like ask I mean it's a little bit of a smartass answer but that's basically going to be your your starting point is you ask for feedback you should that's going to be how we don't get better in a vacuum we don't get better unless we know what we've done right what we've done wrong what we can do better and so that's where we've got to we've got to elicit some feedback and don't get too it's funny because it's this sort of makes me think is i' I've got a customer right now that we've just gone through some stuff and we sit down and they just you could say they're like picking stuff apart but it's really not it is they're looking at the details and they're saying oh this needs to change that needs to change and some of it's it's a learning experience because some of it's uh questions that didn't get asked quite the right way or things that they didn't think about or things that I didn't think about or a lot of it is just uh differences in language and and experience with you know there's whatever that dayto day is for your customer is probably not the day-to-day for you and so it's finding the you know the connections between those and they apologize at one point they're like hey we don't you know we don't want you to feel like we're we're saying you're a bad developer or anything and I was like no no no I we love feedback feedback helps because we don't get better without it and it it doesn't mean we're necessarily going to take every little bit of feedback that we get and then you know focus on it and then go knock that thing out it's how do we take that and incorporate that into becoming better where can we take a piece of that and it's something that you know helps us the next time around one of the best things in in sort of closing on this one is I love how agile with Sprints does it when you get to the end on a retrospective is you're going to have a long list of stuff probably what did we do wrong or what can we do better you don't in the next Sprint turn around and try to address everything you pick like one or two make it bite-sized chunks again you're not going to become perfect you're not going to become you're not going to address all of your better bullet points in the next two weeks or the next month or something like that so you know pick one or pick two and focus on that get better there and then when you're you're comfortable that you've gotten better there then you can pick up some more it's don't get yourself overwhelmed with all of the ways you need to become better pick a couple and this is again this goes back to some of the stuff we talked about is like when you've got a road map it's like how do I develop how do I grow where is it that I want to focus so that I have a a path and that I have goals I have goals and I know that you know six months from now a year from now here's the things I'm working on and I have hopefully you know Michael used the MW metrics I have some way that I can measure that I did get better because that's how we're going to be able to help ourselves and that does go back to that whole reference thing is that we you know we have a 90% success rate or 100% satisfaction but it's what does that mean not just random stats but actually something that's valuable and we don't see you as random people out there on the internet we see you as people we love to get feedback from so this is that perfect opportunity where we're going to ask for feedback from from you because the next person we and we may use that on our site or on the on YouTube or out on the podcast or something like that those reviews those are the kinds of things that feedback is the stuff that may draw somebody else to this very podcast or YouTube channel and it may help them just hopefully as your way of paying back paying forward whatever it is that you've gotten that you can help that next person do the same so leave us leave us comments throughout the developer.com leave us you know there's a feedback form there you can throw comments on any of the blog stuff there you can check out school. developer.com and sign up there and give us some feedback there as I said info@ developer.com on email uh developer is our developer onx also known as Twitter which someday we're eventually be able to just say out on X uh we have a Facebook page we have a LinkedIn place you name it we're probably there and if you don't find us there let us know and we'll be there just uh just to make sure that we're there as well to you know service whatever that Community is that being said go out there and have yourself a great day a great week and we will talk to you next time bonus material for everybody that's still here and seeing our glowing faces and such thoughts yeah so I know at the end I touched on you know this is the developer Journey you know make sure that you ask for feedback not just uh you know for side hustles for but also in your dat J job this applies well for everything in life really because in society we can do one thing one way and if we don't get feedback from other people it'll either perceived as a good thing or a bad thing because behavior is perception right I see myself doing something right it could be totally wrong so feedback requires us to ask questions and one if you're a developer you should be asking questions all the time anyway because we can't write code unless we know what it is that we're writing or we can't solve a problem if we don't really understand the problem a lot of problems come to us or a lot of changes or tickets come to us from people that may not be technical in nature so they you may get a very high level of a request to do something but we have to whittle it down to the details before we actually write the code if you start here and immedately jump in writing code you could be six months down the road with a project that does not even remotely solve the problem so make sure that you ask questions Rob there we go you just like froze for a second on me so we'll have to watch that you have to check out that in the later uh recording or whatever so I'll just do a little three two one because we're back in because we may have had a technical difficulty Maybe not maybe we'll keep that it's one of those things this is a neat little side bonus material is if you're depending on what you're using to record like for example zoom's a really interesting one if you record to the cloud that means that it like pulls from point A goes up to the cloud and then pushes down to point B so there will be stuff that you will see you will experience in your conversation that is not there in the cloud because it like it was smooth everything worked and there was like they cut out a couple of the the end points so just a little bit of bonus material there back to the whole this actually does apply everywhere and this is where you can become a better developer and also become a better human and those two actually will do like a little feedback loop is that the more you ask and the more you dig and the more you understand how to ask questions in the developer world you can also translate that to the your real life world your nonprofessional world and vice versa so if you find yourself in deep conversations with people and you're talking to them about their their life and their background and stuff like that or maybe even moderately deep but these are kinds of things that happen for example if you're out a few kids play sports or something like that and you're talking to other parents there's going to be questions you're ask like you know hey you know what's your background what do you do where do you come from those kinds of uh starter questions Icebreaker questions there's going to be some sort of a similar parallel in the business World in a project and when you can identify those one way or the other you can translate them or start work on translating them into the other world so for example if you're really good with Icebreaker questions in real life you know what do you do where are you from things like that find a way to translate that to the business World which are things like what is your what is your problem sounds bad but it's basically what is your business what are some of your pain points what is your what is your business size what's the background of that business what is maybe your your focus what do you see as your customer those kinds of things if you if you struggle in one area and not the other then go back and look and say well what's the equivalent of this you know like if if think about like what is the technology stack you're working on and you're struggling with small talk with talking to real people then it's like okay what would be the equivalent of what is this technology stack you're working on it's probably like what's your job what do you do what's your day-to-day you know life look like those things will help you go back and forth so while you're becoming a better developer you can become a develop better human and when you're becoming a de better human you you can learn to speak not like me do better than that you can go from being a better human to becoming a better developer so those are some like weighty big value bonus things that we've thrown at you this time so while you're just like struggling under the weight of this incredible bonus material we're going to let you get off to your day we will be back not done yet we're continuing this season 22 I believe is what we're on and we're just like cranking our way through it we've got plenty to go on the developer Journey so continue out there on your human Journey feel free to give us feedback anytime but as always go out there have yourself a great day and we will talk to you next time [Music]
Transcript Segments
[Music]
hello we're back as far as you know
anyways
we are back here we've hit record
sometimes we do these back toback
sometimes we don't you probably could
tell if you pay a little attention but
maybe not it depends there's like
there's Clues little Easter eggs there
to figure out what we're doing when
we're doing it and how we batch them
together that being said uh we are on to
today's podcast and I think what we want
to do last episode we talked about
winning your first project and so this
is sort of that followup that I think
this is really what spark the idea is
let's now talk about um feedback from
your first project and and making that
work and you know getting that uh
getting out there how do you get it and
then how do you utilize that for the
next one around does that sound good
does that make sense yeah no uh it
especially touches on you know some of
the things that I've been going through
I think you as well within the business
because you know as we complete the
projects we need to know how we did so
we can make it right the next time some
something went wrong here we go and we
are talking about post project stuff
okay well hello and welcome back we are
continuing our season where we're
talking about the developer journey and
we're sort of continuing from last
episode this time we're going to talk
about once you've won your first project
once you've completed your first project
or honestly any project how do we get
feedback what do we do how do we take
that and spin it into more work into the
next project that we win but before we
carry on I want to introduce myself my
name is Rob Broadhead I'm one of the
founders of developing or also known as
building better developers it has its
own story how we got there and a founder
of RB Consulting where we do software
development custom and also integration
stuff so we simplify integrate automate
make your life easier get rid of
Technology sprawl and all of the thing
that happens things that happens that
are not positive when you've got like 40
different applications that you're
trying to deal with on the other side is
just one application You' have to deal
with and his name is Mike but he's going
to introduce
himself hey everyone I'm Michael milash
founder of Invision QA and co-founder of
developer
ner here at Invision QA we help
businesses analyze understand their
current technology Stacks help build
custom software and we also help write
integration test and testing tools to
help make sure that their software
development is clear and that you
release quality software without
bugs well we are going to release a
quality podcast with two bugs talking
for the next however long we go on it
and what I really want to talk about
is it it's like finding a way to get
something out of there are there are
obvious things where you can say hey at
the end of a project or maybe at the
beginning of project you say hey I want
a reference so at the end of the project
you're like hey need a reference but
references are generic in a sense that's
sort of a big you know open like what's
a reference it could be as simple as
like hey Mike's a great guy check him
out okay that's not very helpful what is
actually helpful and I thought about
this one because Mike asked me not too
long ago about like hey what are you
know how do you do this how do you go
about this and that got me thinking
because I really through my career have
not used references I don't lead with
them and that's probably on me that's
probably not a good thing so this is
something I've done that is a don't do
like I do because I don't think it's it
helps me as much I've usually waited for
a reference and when somebody's asked
for it or requested it the thing is
those references have always been very
good those have always helped those have
like dragged me across the Finish Line
many many times and so that's why I
probably should have led with those more
now one of the things I do when I'm
proposing uh when I put project
proposals out now on a regular basis uh
and part of it is because it's very easy
now upwork allows you to easily Post in
feedback from prior
projects so I can go back and look
through stuff and you know grab some so
that's like a it's like a quote that
you're going to see on a website where
it's like hey check out this guy's work
or gal's work and you know here's five
people that said this and this and this
and this and this about them and that
was actually something did in a recent
retooling redoing of the RB Consulting
site is I put a couple little quotes
down there as not quite quotes but it's
you know stuff people has said us have
things people have said about us and
then they're not full quotes because
that's where I'm going to go back and
reach out to some people and say hey is
it okay if I put this on the site um
I've left it you know generic right now
but it's good
stuff and that's the key to it is what
is good stuff
the whole process of winning a project
starts with you basically somebody's out
there they need question they need a
problem solve they have questions they
need answered they come to you and some
either directly or through a site or
something like that it's like hey I have
this problem to be solved so what do you
do you're answering their questions
basically you're saying hey you can do
this you can do this or here's a
solution for your problem ideally when
you get done the reference should
continue that story so it should be
along the lines of I needed problem a
solved I went to Mike Mike said this
Mike provided this kind of solution it
worked great it was awesome I love
working with them blah blah
blah and then you have something is
valuable now the keys to this is you
need to make sure that the the problem
or the either the problem that you
solved is a part of that reference or
the question or questions you answered
are part of that because that's what's
going to really resonate with the reader
if you say you if youve got a reference
that
says you know um Rob did a great job
helping Mr musk build a rocket ship and
you're like I'm trying to build a CRM
doesn't really help does it you're going
to look at you're like I don't care I
don't care if he I don't care what he
built it doesn't help me in this and
this is where niches become part of you
or that you need to be aware of them at
least is things like hey you and this
where it it also needs to have a couple
of details to make sure that it is
relatable if you just say you know Rob
built some cool software for us and he
did it in on time and it was on budget
and we love working with them yeah
that's awesome but it really doesn't
resonate because if I'm coming to you
and saying I need you to to build a time
card entry Pro program for me and the
reference doesn't mention time card
entry doesn't mention you know a
technology stack doesn't mention
anything that helps me that relates to
me then it's a useless reference so when
you're doing a reference one make sure
that it has those kinds of details where
it talks about the questions that are
answered or the problems that are solved
and
ideally if you can do that in a way
where there
are multiple details because almost
never is there going to be a project
where you're just solving one problem
and you just did it and that's it
there's usually multiple problems
there's multiple facets to it so it may
be for example instead of Michael built
a really cool CRM for
us it would be something more the lines
of we were struggling we were using a
custom CRM that had gotten out of date
Michael helped us figure out what we had
helped us migrate our data us design a
new one and now we use this for our
company of 200 people we do this on a
daily use this on a daily basis it was
easy to maintain and was done you know
on time on budget there's a lot of
details in there that can resonate with
a reader so that's what you want well
you want it to be you don't need like
you don't want a book because you
they're not going to read a book but if
you can have some bullet points like
that that's key and maybe even what you
do is you have you know maybe you look
at a reference and you've got 10 bullet
point items that you could pull out of
them in any given response or uh you
know email whether it's a responding to
an email or maybe it's a proposal or
something like that maybe only use three
or four of those bullet points because
those are going to sing to the whoever
the the person is on the other side
that's going to really resonate to them
they're going to say oh that's exactly
what I'm looking for and that's why
we've talked in the past about having
for example multiple types of resumés
where you take your all your stuff
you've done and you use it in a language
that really communicates more to that
specific
audience if you're trying to build a a
custom application you should have you
know some wording and some references
that are and things that are built based
on that if it's uh enhancing the
existing one you're going to have
slightly different it could be from the
same project but you're going to
emphasize things differently so when
you're looking for that reference and
yes see I did come back around with the
point I did get totally lost when you're
asking for that
reference you you can start with that's
how you start with just say hey I really
enjoyed the work could you give me a
little bit of feedback on this now that
helps but if you maybe give them five
questions along the lines of and you can
look at any rating system and take
something like this so it's like how did
you you know how did it go overall
ideally what you get is what was uh what
was the high point what was the low
Point what do you think we did great and
where do you think we can improve if you
ask those one you're going to get honest
answers and within that you're probably
going to get some two you're going to
two things you're going to get the
really valuable one you're going to get
probably some good reference material on
the other side you're going to get some
good word do you need to improve
material those things combined are how
you're really going to Leverage
project one into project two and three
and four beyond that so thoughts on that
I know once again I sort of like Dove
right in but last time it worked so well
I'm going to let you follow up and see
where you go with
this all right so you've kind of
explaining the whole process and why we
want feedback and you kind of walk
through the different types of things
that we should be asking for feedback
from our customers so I'm going to take
this a slightly different direction I'm
going to take it more of a deeper dive
into that process so I literally just
went through this with a project I was
on and as you went as I went through the
whole experience of the statement of
work the uh actual doing the assessment
walking through completing the
assessment the final meeting and then
requesting
feedback before I went out and did
something like Survey Monkey or Google
forms or type form where I actually
build a nice online questionnaire to get
feedback from I walk through the whole
process of what it was that we did with
the customer because if you're going to
be asking for feedback like Rob said you
need to ask questions especially if you
want testimonials you want to ask them
in such a way that if they do give you a
testimonial it is reusable or it's
helpful for that next project for that
next Niche or that next uh customer that
you're reaching out
for interestingly enough as I went
through this process especially uh for
me it actually helped me look at what it
was that we did overall and it kind of
helped me identify areas that were Niche
e where I could say hey this is
something that would be really good for
a future project if someone needs X Y or
Z so I walked through and I came up with
10 questions I know Rob said you know a
handful of questions but you have your
generic ones you know like how' the
project go I asked like how is
communication you know was there any
questions or problems that were found
during the process of the project you
know what could be done better you know
those types of questions but then I took
it
further I started asking questions more
along the lines of the assessment you
know what it was what was the problem
that we were trying to solve so I asked
them you know going into this did you
have a clear understanding of your
problem their response clearly was no
because they had a problem but as by the
time we got done with the assessment
they we we came up with the issue where
they had 42 and we actually needed the
question you know what is the answer to
life of the Universe and everything you
know 42 well what is the question so we
ultimately through the process came up
with what their problem was we actually
defined the problem for them or at least
explained to them a way to define the
problem that actually became a good
question on the survey for a testimonial
would you refer this customer to help
you understand your
business or understand your problem you
know are they a good problem solve so it
was kind of an interesting way that that
came out of the assessment and it wasn't
even a survey question I was thinking
about at the start of the project some
other things to think about as you're
going through the process like if you're
building an application all right so if
you're building a web application from a
customer's perspective you know not all
customers are technical how can you ask
them a question in such a way that they
will give you a testimonial or a
response that is understandable of what
the work that you did or the work that
you could provide for someone else so
it's a way of
unpacking this terminology this
technology the these things behind the
scenes that we do that the customer
doesn't see but we need to get the
feedback for what it is that we provided
so you have to make sure that you unpack
those questions in a way that is you
userfriendly
reusable and potentially can have
metrics to it because the other nice
thing at the end as you start building
these projects you can actually put a
nice little graph on the bottom of your
site that says these are the categories
that we uh you know do metrics on here's
where we stand so like 100% customer
support well what does that mean so you
would have to then break down what is
customer support is that working via the
phone working in person solving problems
you know you kind of have to break it
down more than a high level metrics like
Rob said if you just give them a blanket
survey you're not going to get good feat
back if unless you ask more direct
questions it's like well how do we do
well you completed the project you did I
mean if you ask that open-ended like
that you're not going to get a great
answer you could get you did great you
did lousy uh you know this is where you
could improve so you have to kind of
break unpack these a little bit more
from yes or no and get them into more
very deeply defined open-ended questions
it's almost like from an interview if
you're interviewing someone you don't
want to simp simply ask them a yes or no
question you want to ask them you know
how did you complete this task on X
Project you want more details the trick
is how do you get these details from a
questionnaire or a survey to get the
feedback from the customer in a way that
makes sense to you and makes sense to
actually feedback so that you can make
improvements on the
project also in addition to that as we
went through the feedback process
also at the end of the project we came
up with additional questions and
concerns for the next project or for the
potential next uh statement of work that
we were to do which led me to additional
questions which weren't even on the
survey but can be future questions for
potential
marketing potential customer survey
feedback to just put out in groups like
on LinkedIn hey are you guys having
problem with X or what are your issues
here so is another way to kind of go
mine your customers or your potential
customers and get better feedback as to
what is the problem what is it that
people need and can your solution do
that so this kind of puts you into that
Niche area where hey I have this
solution how do I get that to people how
do I find out if people actually need
this solution and that and this is kind
of how you go about and find that
information start talking to people and
get that
feedback and that is really
the this is where you really start
getting into like market research level
of stuff now you're going to have
customers that
are more than talkative that they're
they're more than happy to walk through
things and there be some that they just
want to be like you know what we're done
I'm busy I'm not going to give you so
too much information and while that's
not IDE deal that's okay is what you
what you want is you want the customers
that
are much more you know that are happy to
give the feedback that are conversant
about it and if you can do it much like
Michael did where it's part of a step in
the process because like for example
it's part of your presentation at the
end you're saying hey here's the
assessment that we put out that feedback
that you're getting the question that
you get
on what you produced is going to be some
of the things that you can maybe utilize
whether it's asking them and getting
some feedback from them about how you
handled it or for the next person to say
hey are these some things that you're
struggling with are these some questions
that have kept you up at night then
those are going to help you draw people
in the next time around now I do want to
I want to before we get you wrap this
one up is talk about uh longer term
kinds of projects if you've got
something that's that's easily to do you
know you do it in three six months
something like that button up boom it's
a nice you know project in a box awesome
if it's something where it's ongoing
which for example I've had customers
that i' we didn't really the project
didn't end for literally like 10 years
you just sort of like a little here a
little here a little here a little here
don't be afraid to
periodically go back and you know just
maybe every six months say how are we
doing
what's going to do a customer survey of
some sort just send it out maybe send it
to all your customers that are active
and just say hey how are we doing we
want to get some feedback what do you
think because that's there could be a
gold mine of information in there that
could be very useful for you now another
thing if you're struggling with the like
how do I have applicable questions one
of the easiest ways to do it is when you
first started out you effectively set up
some sort of a statement of work or
project goals or requirements or
something along those lines of like
here's the problem we're going to solve
here's how we're going to solve it use
that at the end to say okay how did we
do we said this is what we're going to
solve we said this is how we're going to
solve it how did we do did we solve it
did we solve it the way we wanted to
what if it changed how did we handle
those changes if it didn't change how
did you you know how did you appreciate
the uh the process to make sure that we
got all of the details also like Michael
you know suggested a lot of times
there's there's going to be new stuff so
how did we help you learn more about
that problem how did we educate you you
know it's there's a lot of stuff around
that that can start with at some point
we said here's where we're at and this
is where we're going to take you so at
the end look back and say how was that
Journey how was your ride what is it
that we did that we we did right what
did we do wrong how do we help you over
the you know the
hurdles because those are the things
that are going to be the we'll call them
interview questions at the next project
those are going to be the things like
hey have you ever done this before and
you say yes I did and this is the
experience that I had and it doesn't
have to be sunshine and Roses you can
talk about stuff and say you know what
we had this thing it went wrong it went
off the rails but this is how we brought
it back on the rails and in that we
learned how to avoid going off the rails
in the future but we also adapted and we
made sure that it it worked so that it
was uh you it worked for our customers
and it didn't cause a whole project to
sank final thoughts on this
one yeah actually through that
last piece you were talking about it it
triggered one additional
thought we this season are talking about
the developer Journey now this is not
just about side hustle starting your
business this is also your journey
through your career through you becoming
a better developer some of the points
Rob just mentioned can also be applied
to a job a corporate job a lot of
companies do quarterly reviews with
their employees however some companies
don't so as you're going through and
working on your daily job these are
questions and surveys you could even do
with your boss with their boss with the
project to figure out how things are
going in your day-to-day job to progress
because if you don't get feedback you
don't know if what you're doing is right
or not and it applies to your job that
applies to your side hustle and that
applies to life so take the time to ask
for feedback when it makes sense and if
you're struggling because you don't know
where you're going if you kind of have
lost your way or you know you're in that
dark tunnel and you can't see the light
at the end start asking questions try to
get that feedback and this is just an
example of how you can go about and do
that yeah don't be afraid just you that
was the funniest thing is that when I I
got Michael's first question was like
how do you get feedback and I was like
ask I mean it's a little bit of a
smartass answer but that's basically
going to be your your starting point is
you ask for feedback you should that's
going to be how we don't get better in a
vacuum we don't get better unless we
know what we've done right what we've
done wrong what we can do better and so
that's where we've got to we've got to
elicit some feedback and don't get too
it's funny because it's this sort of
makes me think is i' I've got a customer
right now that we've just gone through
some stuff and we sit down and they just
you could say they're like picking stuff
apart but it's really not it is they're
looking at the details and they're
saying oh this needs to change that
needs to change and some of it's it's a
learning experience because some of it's
uh questions that didn't get asked quite
the right way or things that they didn't
think about or things that I didn't
think about or a lot of it is just uh
differences in language and and
experience with you know there's
whatever that dayto day is for your
customer is probably not the day-to-day
for you and so it's finding the you know
the connections between those and they
apologize at one point they're like hey
we don't you know we don't want you to
feel like we're we're saying you're a
bad developer or anything and I was like
no no no I we love feedback feedback
helps because we don't get better
without it and it it doesn't mean we're
necessarily going to take every little
bit of feedback that we get and then you
know focus on it and then go knock that
thing out it's how do we take that and
incorporate that into becoming better
where can we take a piece of that and
it's something that you know helps us
the next time around one of the best
things in in sort of closing on this one
is I love how agile with Sprints does it
when you get to the end on a
retrospective is you're going to have a
long list of stuff probably what did we
do wrong or what can we do better you
don't in the next Sprint turn around and
try to address everything you pick like
one or two make it bite-sized chunks
again you're not going to become perfect
you're not going to become you're not
going to address all of your better
bullet points in the next two weeks or
the next month or something like that so
you know pick one or pick two and focus
on that get better there and then when
you're you're comfortable that you've
gotten better there then you can pick up
some more it's don't get yourself
overwhelmed with all of the ways you
need to become better pick a couple and
this is again this goes back to some of
the stuff we talked about is like when
you've got a road map it's like how do I
develop how do I grow where is it that I
want to focus so that I have a a path
and that I have goals I have goals and I
know that you know six months from now a
year from now here's the things I'm
working on and I have hopefully you know
Michael used the MW metrics I have some
way that I can measure
that I did get better because that's how
we're going to be able to help ourselves
and that does go back to that whole
reference thing is that we you know we
have a 90% success rate or 100%
satisfaction but it's what does that
mean not just random stats but actually
something that's valuable and we don't
see you as random people out there on
the internet we see you as people we
love to get feedback from so this is
that perfect opportunity where we're
going to ask for feedback from from you
because the next person we and we may
use that on our site or on the on
YouTube or out on the podcast or
something like that those reviews those
are the kinds of things that feedback is
the stuff that may draw somebody else to
this very podcast or YouTube channel and
it may help them just hopefully as your
way of paying back paying forward
whatever it is that you've gotten that
you can help that next person do the
same so leave us leave us comments
throughout the developer.com
leave us you know there's a feedback
form there you can throw comments on any
of the blog stuff there you can check
out school. developer.com and sign up
there and give us some feedback there as
I said info@ developer.com on email uh
developer is our developer onx also
known as Twitter which someday we're
eventually be able to just say out on X
uh we have a Facebook page we have a
LinkedIn place you name it we're
probably there and if you don't find us
there let us know and we'll be there
just uh just to make sure that we're
there as well to you know service
whatever that Community is that being
said go out there and have yourself a
great day a great week and we will talk
to you next
time bonus material for everybody that's
still here and seeing our glowing faces
and
such thoughts yeah so I know at the end
I touched on you know this is the
developer Journey you know make sure
that you ask for feedback not
just uh you know for side hustles for
but also in your dat J job this applies
well for everything in life really
because in society we can do one thing
one way and if we don't get feedback
from other people it'll either perceived
as a good thing or a bad
thing because behavior is perception
right I see myself doing something right
it could be totally wrong so feedback
requires us to ask questions and one if
you're a developer you should be asking
questions all the time anyway because we
can't write code unless we know what it
is that we're writing or we can't solve
a problem if we don't really understand
the
problem a lot of problems come to us or
a lot of changes or tickets come to us
from people that may not be technical in
nature so they you may get a very high
level of a request to do something but
we have to whittle it down to the
details before we actually write the
code if you start here and immedately
jump in writing code you could be six
months down the road with a project that
does not even remotely solve the problem
so make sure that you ask questions
Rob there we go you just like froze for
a second on me so we'll have to watch
that you have to check out that in the
later
uh recording or
whatever so I'll just do a little three
two one because we're back in because we
may have had a technical difficulty
Maybe not maybe we'll keep that it's one
of those things this is a neat little
side bonus material is if you're
depending on what you're using to record
like for example zoom's a really
interesting one if you record to the
cloud that means that it like pulls from
point A goes up to the cloud and then
pushes down to point B so there will be
stuff that you will see you will
experience in your conversation that is
not there in the cloud because it like
it was smooth everything worked and
there was like they cut out a couple of
the the end points so just a little bit
of bonus material there back to the
whole this actually does apply
everywhere and this is where you can
become a better developer and also
become a better human and those two
actually will do like a little feedback
loop is that the more you ask and the
more you dig and the more you understand
how to ask questions in the developer
world you can also translate that to the
your real life world your
nonprofessional world and vice versa so
if you find yourself in deep
conversations with people and you're
talking to them about their their life
and their background and stuff like that
or maybe even moderately deep but these
are kinds of things that happen for
example if you're out a few kids play
sports or something like that and you're
talking to other parents there's going
to be questions you're ask like you know
hey you know what's your background what
do you do where do you come from those
kinds of uh starter questions Icebreaker
questions there's going to be some sort
of a similar parallel in the business
World in a project and when you can
identify those one way or the other you
can translate them or start work on
translating them into the other world so
for example if you're really good with
Icebreaker questions in real life you
know what do you do where are you from
things like that find a way to translate
that to the business World which are
things like what is your what is your
problem sounds bad but it's basically
what is your business what are some of
your pain points what is your what is
your business size what's the background
of that business what is maybe your your
focus what do you see as your customer
those kinds of
things if you if you struggle in one
area and not the other then go back and
look and say well what's the equivalent
of this you know like if if think about
like what is the technology stack you're
working on and you're struggling with
small talk with talking to real people
then it's like okay what would be the
equivalent of what is this technology
stack you're working on it's probably
like what's your job what do you do
what's your day-to-day you know life
look like those things will help you go
back and forth so while you're becoming
a better developer you can become a
develop better human and when you're
becoming a de better human you you can
learn to speak not like me do better
than that you can go from being a better
human to becoming a better developer so
those are some like weighty big value
bonus things that we've thrown at you
this time so while you're just like
struggling under the weight of this
incredible bonus material we're going to
let you get off to your day we will be
back not done yet we're continuing this
season 22 I believe is what we're on and
we're just like cranking our way through
it we've got plenty to go on the
developer Journey so continue out there
on your human Journey feel free to give
us feedback anytime but as always go out
there have yourself a great day and we
will talk to you next time
[Music]