📺 Develpreneur YouTube Episode

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Agile Developer Habits: Simple Practices for Big Development Wins

2024-12-17 •Youtube

Detailed Notes

Agile has become a cornerstone of modern development, yet the essence of its value often gets overshadowed by procedural or tool-based interpretations. In the recent Building Better Developers podcast, Rob Broadhead and Michael Meloche delve into the foundational principles of Agile and its relevance to building better developer habits, emphasizing adaptability and continuous improvement. Here’s a summary of their key insights and practical takeaways for cultivating an Agile mindset.

*Read More*... https://develpreneur.com/agile-developer-habits-simple-practices-for-big-development-wins/

*Episode Challenge:* Weekly Planning, Daily Adapting

1. Set Weekly Goals

At the start of the week, identify a few larger goals or tasks that you aim to complete within seven days. These should be substantial enough that they cannot be completed in a single day, requiring consistent progress.

2. Plan Daily Tasks

Each day, determine smaller tasks or steps that contribute to those larger goals. These tasks should be adaptable, meaning they can evolve based on progress or changing priorities.

3. Monitor Your Process

Pay attention to whether sticking to a fixed schedule (working on the same task at the same time daily) or adapting your workflow dynamically works better for you. Evaluate if adjustments improve productivity and align with the Agile principle of responding to change over following a rigid plan.

The goal of this challenge was to instill habits of flexibility and iterative progress, mimicking Agile’s core values while fostering personal and professional growth.

We invite you to join our community and share your coding journey with us. Whether you’re a seasoned developer or just starting, there’s always room to learn and grow together. Contact us at [email protected] with your questions, feedback, or suggestions for future episodes. Together, let’s continue exploring the exciting world of software development.

*Additional Resources*

* Agile Principles Summary – Our Next Steps (https://develpreneur.com/agile-principles-summary-our-next-steps/) * Patterns For Agile – Templates for Success (https://develpreneur.com/patterns-for-agile-templates-for-success/) * Scrum Ceremonies – Running An Effective Sprint (https://develpreneur.com/scrum-ceremonies-running-an-effective-sprint/) * VIDEO: Coaching Tips to Stop Teams Equating Points to Hours (https://develpreneur.com/video-coaching-tips-to-stop-teams-equating-points-to-hours/)

*Follow-us on:*

* https://develpreneur.com/ * https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZOuFN_LhczvGyT2KSItH_g/featured * https://facebook.com/Develpreneur * https://twitter.com/develpreneur * http://linkedin.com/develpreneur

Transcript Text
[Music]
all right we have hit record and as
always we got to figure what the hell
we're going to talk about
so
um I was oh this will be near and dear
to our heart um I want to talk about the
habit of getting better at agile and
this specifically but um I think sdlc
but I think agile in particular I think
there's some good habits we can do there
and um it's a little bit on the lines of
learning but I think we can talk a
little bit about some things that you
can do some habits that you can take
that you can have that will help you be
better at agile even if you don't have a
full team or even if you're not doing it
but it's things like hitting on those
rituals and and honestly just looking at
the agile Manifesto and thinking about
keeping some of those uh those core
pieces in mind while you're doing your
development because I think that is I
think would help a lot of people even if
you don't do like scrum or anything like
that but I
think going through the you know the
main keeping some of those things in
mind were are I think H highly useful
and I think there's some ways that we
can do that almost like when you did
your for a while where you had your
alarm that would go off it's like you
know are you being busy or productive
kind of thing is that kind of a some of
those regular sanity
checks yeah I like that and that kind of
flows with some of the conversations
we've had this week uh about agile and
ceremonies
and uh I also threw two out there which
we could probably discuss next but I had
like utilizing Ai and then using virtual
environments uh let's see what are you
thinking on utilizing
AI we not talked about it yet I guess we
haven't have we
no so what are you
thinking uh kind of like we we had the
conversation one or two back about goo
like how to Google Google like maybe go
just go through some habits of like what
are some daily things that you could
start practicing with AI to see if
they're you know to help streamline or
automate your processes oh I like that
okay so we'll do that for the second one
tonight
today um yeah because we're going to get
close we got yeah after this we can
after we're done you can figure out when
our when we're going to have to start
our Christmas specials because I think
those are coming up that maybe week I
think next week we'll do our Christmas
specials so cool so AI to end the year
is actually probably not a bad one for
the most part or probably end the year
so I like
that um and I'm just going to wing it on
the good and the bad because I always do
because that's just that takes too much
thought all right let me throw a little
more light on the subject if I can reach
make sure your notifications are off
make sure notifications are on so they
beep all the time that way people know I
am around thank you
the nice thing too is I only have Focus
for so long so it's like all
right once it comes back on we got to
wrap this sucker
up three
two well hello and welcome back we are
continuing our season of building better
habits because we are building better
developers you on the other end are
developers that we are building better
ones of you we are helping you help
yourself become better whether you're
actually a developer not because there
are a lot of developer related things
that we found are very useful even if
you're not by title or trade a developer
technology is everywhere and there's a
lot of these tools and things we
discussed that are going to help you do
a better job essentially of making
technology your friend and finding a way
to use it this episode we're actually
going to talk about one of those things
little spoiler alert is we're going to
get into the world of agile a little bit
or agile depending on which side of the
ocean you live on and that is coming up
soon but first I need to introduce
myself I am Rob Brad I'm one of the
founders of developing or also a founder
of RB Consulting where we help you just
sort of like this is instead of just
building better developers it's more
like building better businesses we help
you leverage technology take what you've
got and take what's out there and find a
good mix of that so that you become more
efficient at what you're doing through
integration automation simplification we
find ways to to take that sprawl of
technology and turn it into something
that is a a nice pretty little thing
that helps you drive your machine faster
cleaner better than a regular
tuneup on the world in this world of
challenges that we have put
together I I'm going to I'm going to
throw because I keep coming back to it I
love the Pomodoro thing doing just a
little bit um one thing that's like
Michael has talked about is the struggle
of keeping them small and actually like
you know doing 25 minutes stop and move
on and one of the things I've played
around with a little bit is having like
a long and a short pomodoros I've had
some where I'll just say you know what
I'm essentially going to do effectively
like two back to back because in a 25
minutes it actually works really well
goes back to Old School school blocks of
where you had basically 50 minutes and
then 10 minutes before you went to your
next class and I've tried that a little
bit I want to say that has worked out
actually really well um it is sometimes
a little bit of a stretch to get that 50
minutes before before somebody
interrupts me but when I do it's
actually been very productive uh another
one of the things is gone back to uh the
building a brand I have gone back to
that several times uh working on the
brand working uh in my business instead
of on my business and have found a lot
of little tweaks uh it's actually sort
of a downside because a lot of it is
generating a to-do list for myself
because I'm like oh I got to do this got
to do that got to do this got to do that
but it is getting me at least back into
it and getting me to refresh myself on
some of the things that are that are out
there um another one that's on the to-do
list it's been really interesting one as
I said as I I really struggle because I
have daily to-do list but I have sort of
expanded that out a little bit because
I'm trying to think of that you know
those two or three things I want to do
every day I'm also instead of doing my
daily list is causing me to go back and
look at other items that I've got on
like my general back blog of stuff to do
and things like that or just revisit in
some cases I'll look at things and go
you know what I haven't thought about
this in a while for example I had not
really looked at my Amazon server
allotment of stuff and a little bit of
something that got me in there reminded
me that I hadn't really reviewed stuff
in a while I started looking in there
and I'm probably going to save myself I
don't know not a lot not a ton but at
least 10 or 20 bucks a month maybe more
than that on servers uh plus I actually
will have more servers for less money so
there's like some bonuses there because
I was looking at looking at licensing
and making sure like I do for other
businesses making sure that I'm making
the best use of the licenses and the
technology that I have so it's a little
bit of of drinking from your your own
cup kind of thing or you know practicing
What You Preach good things bad things
good thing was I took a whole weekend
off basically I got to I got to hang
out do went to a different city did a
whole lot of different stuff were just
fun time fun times fun times the bad
side of that is I was exhausted by the
time I got to the end of the weekend I
was actually looking forward to going
back to work this week because I needed
a break from having too much fun last
weekend now I did not have that with
Michael so he's going to share his story
around all of this go ahead and
introduce
yourself hey everyone my name is Michael
malash I'm one of the co-founders of
developer Nur also I am the founder of
Envision QA where we help businesses
build software customize and tailor to
their needs if you're struggling with
your current software stack or you don't
have a software stack you don't know
where to begin give us a call we'll help
you figure out what it is you need and
build a solution that works for
you good and bad uh let's see good uh
we're getting closer to Christmas I'm
getting back into that holiday mood
starting to watch the field good
Christmas homework movies um kind of
putting me back in that good kind of
mindset for the holiday uh bad which
will go into uh kind of our
challenges I was doing really good with
the Pomodoro Technique and kind of
staying on track small little iterations
and following a plan of things to do
until I worked on building this little
server idea I had for a project I'm
working on and what was probably a
really decent estimate of about a day's
work to build any type of server from
scratch when you're definitely building
Hardware machines not cloud-based
machines there's always that little
intri intricacies you run into and this
one kind of went from okay it's almost
there to next thing I know I'm 24 hours
in just spent 16 hours straight plowing
my way through to hit a brick wall that
basic we had to Pivot um we hit
something that
just the solution was not going to work
at all for what we
wanted so we uh had to Pivot downside
was the fact that I spent 16 hours
straight literally glued to my machine
because it's like every time I turn out
I almost got we'll get the clock us four
hours later all I think I'll get nope
so bad habit good habit go back to that
list go back to taking the Pomodoro and
say take when you do get to your braks
also take a moment maybe if you're on
multiple pomodoros of the same
issue set a goal or a check kind of a
sanity check after four of these should
I continue or do I need to Pivot so uh
that's kind of where I'm at for uh our
challenges beyond that everything else
is going good you know typically I'm
following the Pomodoro really well
uh I've actually been really cranking it
with automating things so I'm keeping
track of what I'm doing because I'm
building servers and we typically have
to replicate so everything I have I'm
taking and I'm just converting it to a
script so I can run on the next machine
or now that I'm back in the cloudbased
world we'll just take snapshots as we go
and be able to spin things up quickly so
keeping that in mind you know that'll
save my sanity hopefully going forward
and it will save yours if you keep track
of what you and see if you can automate
it now this actually leads us into the
word using that word pivot leads us into
the world of agile which is one of the
things that is a a strength of of the
agile approach now they interesting
thing about this and why I I felt like
this was a good building better
developers building better habits kind
of thing is one I think a lot of people
don't know what agile really means is
that they they have all of these like
they say it's pair programming or it's
Sprints or something like that and agile
is actually meta to that or or predates
that to some extent I guess he doesn't
even predate it it was it is it got they
got merged somewhere and they they are a
little bit different
however this does touch on things like
the which is part of the challenge we're
going to touch on things that are really
more in the scrum world and some of the
the the ceremonies and things like that
that go on because we're going to talk
about building better habits now I want
to I want to start with reiterating
there's four main things more four main
values that are what the agile Manifesto
puts together and if you ever want to
look at it agil manifesto. org it's out
there it's been there forever it's very
easy to read and it's very actually
insightful as a developer it's one of
those things like we've talked about the
4-Hour Work week and some other things
out there that we revisit on a regular
basis
and I think the agile Manifesto is one
as a developer you should because it's
going to help you I think often be a
check of like am I doing this one of
those kind of thing am I doing this am I
doing it right now the four values are
they said that you know they've sort of
the Preamble is hey we're a bunch of
developers we've built a lot of systems
and this is what we've learned and these
are the four individuals and
interactions over processes and tools as
far as these are the things that we have
come to Value so individuals and inter
actions over processes and tools working
software over comprehensive
documentation customer collaboration
over contract negotiation and responding
to change over following a plan now that
last one is a perfect example of what
Michael just ran into is that there's
sometimes particularly when we get into
the software development world if you're
in the waterfall World sometimes you're
sort of stuck it's like you've got to
plow through you've got to get this
thing done because there are down ex
issues that you have to worry about
because you built in the requirements
it's there everybody's counting on it
all of that kind of stuff in this agile
World there are some things that yes
there are requirements that are sort of
they're Loosely required you know tied
to this thing so he can look at it and
he can say you know what this is taking
more time than we needed to it's more
complicated we needed to it's not what
we need or whatever it is and he can
change and that's exactly what agile is
about is it's not necessarily about hey
we've got this plan we've got to execute
we've got to do all this stuff we can
change on a regular basis we are you
know it's I used it several times when
we talked when we were going through
some of the the lectures about it it's a
difference between laying out a yard
stick versus having like let's say
little 6inch rulers and using that to
get to your point because the yard stick
once you lay it down you're going from
point A to point B that's it your your
path is covered but if you've got these
little 6 in you know 6inch rulers that
you're doing along the way you're like
hey I'm going to go here for a while oh
maybe I'm going to go here or I'm going
to go here you may go off in a
completely different direction than you
originally planned on it because the
world is Ever Changing as they say and
there's always things that come up
you're your customers may change your
focus the the the budget for a project
may disappear the goal the scope of a
project could change dramatically and
I've seen that on numerous projects and
that's why you do Sprints is you you
sort of go in you you plan somewhat I
mean you're planning like a a Sprint or
two or three or four ahead maybe but
generally speaking you you know you're
you're still saying staying loose and
flexible in how you approach things and
I want to put that in and I think that
actually fits with sort of the daily for
example the daily to-do list that we
talk about is that yes we've talked
about having uh like your your career
road map which is obviously going to
spend many many many years it's going to
spend decades versus we talk about uh
annual goals and and quarterly goals and
monthly goals and things like that but
when you get down to that daily that
does allow you on a given day to to
Pivot it is in a sense it's an agile way
to look at things and we'll talk about
that a little bit more as we get into
the Habit side of this and the challenge
side of it but now I want to sort of
throw this over to Michael and get some
of your feedback and your thoughts along
this and and where you want to go in the
this agile discussion because we're
agile like that
yeah it's funny like your yard stick
versus rulers it's a really good analogy
and when you were saying that what
popped into my head initially was not
necessarily software but the bridge
collaps in Baltimore
so you had a direct path from A to B
well something fails and it collapses
what do you do you know you can't really
pivot because you have this one path but
if you have multiple paths to get to
somewhere if one's blocked you can go
somewhere else to get there so that was
just a funny analogy cuz we watched so
much of that collapse when that happened
um and that sticks with me a lot
especially with the agile process
because even though like I ran into that
situation where I was stuck for hours it
was one of those though where at the end
of the day it wasn't a critical failure
we could pivot we could move on we could
do something else to still keep the ball
moving you know as we work with
ceremonies try to work to our daily
routines especially with
teams everyone kind of has a
different process or different
ceremonies as to how they work with
agile and you and I have talked about
this many different times because we
kind of um have different approaches to
this and it's kind of funny because at
the end of the day we're still trying to
do the same thing but you're fighting
like especially corporate you're
fighting that too many meeting mindset
sometimes where it's like do we really
need a meeting to talk about in the
agile sense yes
because the ceremonies are designed in
such a way that we keep that ball moving
we keep the process moving if anyone's
got any blockers we work through those
issues and we can pivot we can move
forward and then you get away from that
kind of waterfall approach that Rob
mentioned where you have to plan
everything out first and then you know
this is our path we can't deviate we
have to get there but life changes you
know it's like I don't know if anyone's
still on Windows 10 you're probably
getting popups constantly telling you
that hey windows isn't Windows 10 isn't
going to be supported anymore you need
to upgrade well oh your machine isn't
supported now you need to go buy a new
machine these are things that can help
be planned for and avoided with like
agile you just plan things out but you
plan them out in a way that puts working
over over you know kind of like you said
like planning out all the documentation
first you kind of get a idea of what it
is and you start writing it start
building it
out although there's times I'll push
back on that like if we're starting a
project sometimes you do have to do a
little bit of waterfall to get enough
information from a customer sometimes to
figure out what they want now granted
sometimes their ideas change and you'll
pivot a lot on that um that's where
agile comes in but sometimes certain
things do require a little more planning
up front so it's a little more waterfall
is in the requirements phace but once
you get to the development and the start
putting things together that's where
agile comes in that's where you start
really using that uh ruler versus the
yard stake approach to get things from
point A to point B
faster and I guess what I was kind of
curious because you mentioned the um
customers versus contract um kind of the
third value that you mentioned there
what are some examples of that because I
have not really touched upon that too
much with the agile experiences that
I've worked with so that is one that I
think is it tends to be more of I guess
in a as a development manager or or
things like that but really the customer
collaboration over contract negotiation
is uh for lack of better terms it's it's
it's nickel and diming on either side of
it so what happens is is that we can get
into situations and it's really if
you've been in a larger organization or
if you are in a larger organization
where there are things like change
requests and things like that that go on
and even if you're in a small
organization or if you're if you've got
a side hustle or something like that
there is in any given contract there is
going to be potential for change
requests somewhere along the way there's
a scope change or something along those
lines now
the thing is and this actually gets into
the whole idea of like fixed bid
projects versus hourly and some things
like that that are a whole different
soap box that I can get on and and
lecture about and and wax poetic about
but it really comes down
to working with your customer to give
them a to get to a win-win situation it
is working with them to give them
something that is valuable to them as
opposed to getting into a fight over a
dollar or you know or a dollar amount
even because it's it's the kind of stuff
where it's like yes you know you want
this thing that's going to cost
$110,000 and instead of getting in you
know them saying well we could probably
afford $9,000 and and you're like no you
know well how about 95 you know instead
of getting into the contract negotiation
and spending all of that time trying to
agree on what you're building you could
spend that time building the thing a
good example is I I dealt with somebody
that was not there was like a slow pay
go situation going on and they're like
well I'm just not going to you I'm not
going to work for the customer because
they're not paying so I'm not going to
do the work and it's like well all
you're doing is just pushing kicking
stuff down the road you're actually
hurting yourself as well as them because
now you're not doing the work and so now
you're going to have to come back you're
going to have to ramp back up and now
the customer is not going to be happy
cuz they're not getting what was
promised and so you know instead of
addressing the problem in that case they
ended up saying well I'm just going to
pull back and it's it's a negotiation
strategy but it's I mean maybe not a
good one you might agree or disagree
with that but instead of going to the
customer and saying look you know you're
not paying on time I'm delivering on
time we need to work on that and then
figuring that out and instead of you
know beating him over the head like a
good example A lot of times in that case
is like if don't pay me by this day then
we're we're going to stop work
completely or we're going to shut down
all the servers or whatever it happens
to be and instead of getting into these
like you know us versus them mentality
the customer collaboration is when
you're like look we're all working to
get this thing done and if you're not if
you come into a project and you're doing
it for the money you're just doing
because like I see dollar signs and I
just want to get paid then don't do it
you're not ever you will never be a
better developer if you do that
guarantee you because you're not doing
it to be a developer you're doing it to
the you know to earn some money if you
want to do that that's fine but you know
listen to us keep listen to us because
maybe you'll sometime see the light but
don't think that that is ever going to
make you a better developer it's going
to make you maybe a better negotiator or
salesman or something like that but it's
not about development at that point the
contract negotiation is all sales and
and that kind of stuff customer
collaboration is where you're sitting
there with them and saying hey you have
a problem we want to solve it and
there's always a budget there's always a
reality there there's like there's a
certain level of how well you can solve
that problem and so it's working with
them to figure out okay maybe we can't
we can't solve it 100% but maybe we can
get you 80% there or maybe we can't give
you the poror solution that you think
you want but you're going to find out
that the Kia no offense to either of
these cars or manufacturers or anything
like it but maybe like you just need the
Kia solution because you don't need the
all that other crap and there's a lot of
that this goes back to again something I
can preach on for days because people
will end up buying software and spending
money on stuff they really don't need
they don't they never use it and so they
have all these features and all these
things that they're not using why spend
extra money to get there why get stuck
into contract negotiations and wasting
time over things that you really aren't
going to use anyways and this goes to
this is on both sides of it it is as a
developer working with the customer and
as a customer hopefully working with the
developers to realize that you guys are
on the same page and or you guys have
the same goals you have the same desires
we should all want if you're being a
better if you're here you're building
better developers you do you want to
build software that people use and so
it's not as much about the Bucks that
are involved and I think most of us
would take a successful project at 10%
less of what we could have earned as
opposed to a failure of a project where
we earn an extra 20% bonus somewhere
along the way that's those and I'm very
happy you asked that because I do think
that's one that as developers we don't
think about it in those terms as often
because we'll get in and argue with our
boss or the other teammates or things
like that about well this has to be this
color that has to we have to use this
standard or we have to use this you know
this data value or whatever it is we
have all these little knit picky things
so while this is talking about at a a
customer level I think we often get lost
in the details as well and it's
like everybody's argument is fine you're
better off just picking one and moving
forward than you are spending time
arguing so one did that answer your
questions and then thoughts on that yeah
that answered my question but it gave me
a follow-up question for you so not to
detract Too Much from the agile
conversation but within that contract
negotiation or kind of working with the
customer kind of like arbitration things
like that to keep things moving forward
because we always do want to provide
better services to make things better at
the end of the day we want to provide
them something that is better than what
they have even if it's just cleaner
code but within the contract
negotiations not necessarily as you're
going on about pay but at the beginning
so as you're in that research phase that
deep dive into the requirements and
flushing out what they
need how do you avoid getting into the
Trap of what they have versus what they
need to kind of get that happy medium to
within the conversations you know kind
of for a odd comparison is where oh I
want this button up here and I want it
to be purple it doesn't matter you just
need a button that
works how what is your suggestion to our
listeners and viewers to kind of avoid
that early on not necessarily later but
at the beginning so that you kind of can
still provide the benefit but maybe not
at a higher cost that you would
initially want this really does come
down to it really it's it I think you
win and lose this actually at the
beginning of a project at the initial
phases because what you what you want to
do with now if it's a cust you've worked
with it's different but somewhere along
the way there is an initial the start to
the relationship and if while you're
building up that in that initial phase
of of building that relationship and
figuring out how you're going to
interact with the customer if you build
trust and help them understand that
there are things that they need to bring
to the table and there are things that
you bring to the table and for them to
trust you where you're in your lane and
you trust them when they're in their
Lane then I think it does help those
things so for example let's say you're
going along and they're saying there's
there's a couple ways to approach that
where you you show them something let's
say you're you've got some mockups for
this U solution that you're going to
build for them and they're you're in the
negotiation phase essentially they're
trying to figure out what do they want
what don't they want and this is a good
example because at this point what they
want and what they don't want should not
come down to a purple button it's
there's certain functionality they need
there's a problem they need solve so
this goes back to our favorite what is
the why why are they actually doing this
and so if they bring up something like
that say hey this needs to have a purple
button there now you could say you fool
you are not paying attention to what you
need to be paying attention to that will
probably not win you a contract or Nice
Guy of the Year award or gal of the Year
award or anything else like that but
what you can do is which a lot of times
you can start with the Positive approach
where you just say okay what is the a
lot of times this is a great one what is
the business reason for that what is the
business logic behind that why does that
need to be purple why does it need to be
there because there could be a
legitimate reason there could be
something where they're like we've got a
person that is colorblind and can only
see purple or something like that or or
if you know it could be something weird
like the sun shines at that spot at a
certain time of the day and if it's not
purple then we can't I just random stuff
but if you don't know their business and
you don't like they do then they may be
able to bring you something but I think
it's it's often frame that as a what is
the what is the business reasoning
behind that because if it's just they
say and sometimes they'll say well there
is no reason I just like the color
purple and I want a button there then
you can go to well what is the benefit
to you of that being purple and being
there versus it being pink and over on
the other side of the screen or
something like
that and if they ask you know if they
just say well I'm the customer and I
want to do it then you say well I
understand that but I'm trying to be a
good
uh consultant or I'm trying to be a good
vendor for this solution and when you
maybe that you say that that actually
adds a cost potentially it adds a cost
or it's something else we have to check
or it's something that's going to be
makes this more complicated than it
needs to be and so we just want to
ensure that you really are stepping into
this knowing that you are adding a
complexity to this
solution and we don't I don't you know I
don't have to see why I just want to
make sure that you understand that
you've done it so whatever your
reasoning is if you don't want to
explain it that's fine but if you do
explain it to me then maybe I can help
you with alternate Solutions or help
design this better in other areas
because I'll find out for example that
you love purple buttons okay cool I'm
going to make buttons purple wherever I
want you to click on them and I'm going
to make them green because you hate
green wherever I don't want you to click
on buttons or something like that I mean
there's there are things that we can do
based on even the most for lack of a
better term irrational likes and
dislikes of a customer is we can use
that we can leverage that and make a
custom solution for them and so this
goes back to this is a customer
collaboration instead
of you don't need that or something that
is very much like now you've got a brick
wall and you guys are having to argue
you're you're on the opposite side of
the customer you're coming alongside
them and you put your arm around you're
like that's a pretty cool button what is
the value of having it there or
something along those lines and so now
you're working on the collaboration side
and you're you're working to build their
trust and help understand that you want
them to you want them to be happy you
want them to be satisfied with what
comes out but you also are guarding
their core idea of there's a problem to
be solved and they're spending money and
so we want to make sure that you are
spending money wisely as much as we can
does that make sense does that answer
your question as well yeah you actually
answered it in a very agile way I love
that
because it was a great solution
in I really like
how you turn it around to how is the you
know what is the value of this to you
yes I don't need to fully understand it
but you just need to understand the cost
that was huge or to me that's one of the
big takeaways from that along with the
collaboration because we do want to be
there to provide a solution that the
customer wants but in a reasonable and
cost- effective way now if they want to
pay for it and that's absolutely what
they want you put it in there you just
do have to make sure that you
communicate the cost and complexity to
the customer because they don't
understand software or in most cases
your customer is not a developer so when
we do talk to them it can't be in Tech
it has to be in common language that
they can understand and that also isn't
talking down to them so that when you
are communicating it makes sense to both
parties and and you can for like a
better sense collaborate on the solution
versus hammer and
nail and that is really where agile
comes in is that you you know part of
that too is we don't have to make the
decision on that button right now if
we're in the beginning of a project we
don't have to make that decision we can
like you can basically just say we're
going to leave fine cool we'll leave it
there no problems and then you can
always come back later down the road and
then fight that battle if it even needs
to be fought and maybe that screen never
exists it maybe that button never exists
it may be that customer gets fired and
somebody else gets hired I mean there's
all kinds of different things that could
go on that will change it and so that's
where the agile side is is like we don't
have to nail we don't have to die on a
hill at the beginning of a project we
can say sure and we can go with the flow
until we need until we're further far
enough along and then we've got
something that is much more concrete to
fight over as opposed to some sort of
just like you know vague ideas that we
have of how this thing will
look
now the challenge side of this because I
think you're you know a lot of you are
like wow this is about you know big
things and stuff like that the challenge
I have for you is does go back to the um
the daily tasks kind of thing is I want
you to to at the beginning of a week
take a look at you know build a few
tasks up so essentially like tomorrow
what are you going to do in the next
seven days what are you going to
accomplish in the next seven days and I
want you each day to and you can pick
you know one big goal or two or three
big goals or something like that but
then each day you're going to make a
progress toward make progress towards
these things so not something you can
get done in one day let's think of
something a little bit bigger that you
want to do it maybe one of the other
challenges we are and then put that on a
list and actually what I'd like you to
do is start with I'm going to do this at
you know a certain certain time certain
window block every day
and see how many days you can do that is
it more difficult to figure out that
time and schedule that thing out and do
it at the same time every day or is it
easier for you to adjust when you do it
and now this is hopefully going to get
you into that mindset of things that I
think for developers we often are like
this is what I feel this is what I
thought this is how I have to go instead
this is going to help us break that
habit or that mindset and realize that
hey it doesn't have to actually flow the
way we originally did it it can go in a
different direction it can evolve it can
change because that's where you're going
to become a better developer and have
some really good habits about you know
getting used to being agile changing
being more light on your feet in a a
professional
sense that being said you are not
allowed to be agile at all you need to
go directly to your email and send us
something at info@ develop Andor let us
know how things are going what do you
like what don't you like let us know how
your challenges are going that is
actually very interesting to us and
especially if there's any insights or
habits or anything like that that you
are that you building that you finding
that this is something that particularly
if it's something that we've helped you
build this habit because of the
challenge when maybe you were you know
challenged by it before for example uh
the Pomodoro thing and some of the
things that uh we've learned as we've
gone through these challenges as well
you can also leave us comments wherever
you're seeing this whether it's out on
YouTube on the developer n Channel you
can go wherever you're at a you get your
podcast there's a way to leave uh
feedback and all that kind of good stuff
we really you know rank us however you
want to but give us a five or one or
whatever the review is but it's really
more about the content we want to hear
from you and also we've got a form out
on developer.com so you can get us there
at develop andur on X if you want to
send something out that way or if you
just want to follow us that being said
we have we got to follow ourselves on to
the next episode so go out there and
have yourself a great day a great week
and we will talk to you next
time bonus
material there's a lot of bonus already
in there I don't know we've like
overdone it a little bit I just wanted
to throw because I know we kind of
talked about you know uh
individual um over you know individual
uh processes versus uh tools and things
like that but there are still some good
agile tool out there like Trello and
jira uh that kind of give you that
um swim Lane type approach to being
agile to keeping track of things um so
if you aren't really familiar with agile
and just need kind of a visual way to
get started look at things like that
because sometimes especially for me
seeing the swim lanes and seeing where
things are and how things are broken
down really helps me keep track of
things whereas you know if you're not
and you're more just a process driven
person then you know go for it you it
just if you're really just don't
understand agile sometimes that's a good
way to just get started that's actually
a great area for uh bonus material both
processes and tools
because processes is one that I I this
is near and dear to my heart I'm I'm
working through that with a team right
now and building out processes and
trying to figure out like how to change
some and and mindsets and things like
that and there's a lot of stuff that we
want to implement
but it doesn't always make sense for
example the world famous like change
control and stuff like that where you
have a you have to have a ticket and
then it has to run through all these
processes it has to be QA reviewed QA
blah blah blah blah blah so that by
definition a lot of times that means if
there's a hot fix it takes at least 24
to 48 hours to even get that into you
know done and into production and stuff
like that but then sometime and it so
that process is there for a reason but
like everything else there are going to
be times where you're like you know what
we need to skip some of this the tools
are the same way a lot of these tools
will lead you towards or tell you that
you need to do a BC and you always have
to do this you have to do that thing or
you have to you the tool will make you
sometimes because they need to in order
to provide you some of the reporting
they'll make you do certain things and
those don't have to be you don't have to
do that you can get around it like now
granted depends on where you're at at
your at your company it may be that you
have to do all of this crap so that this
certain report gets built at the end
correctly at the end of the day but if
that's not the case then it may be that
you can like you can skip one every so
often and you can just like push a task
through without it being like this full
awesome ticket or you can you can
shortcut a couple of things because
you're like you don't have to do all of
this flowery stuff around it you really
just need to say this is what we need to
do this is what we need to fix now the
tools have gotten pretty good about
working with that a lot of the agile
tools because they have ways to do you
know simpler versus more complex stories
and tasks and stuff like that but just
always you know it's one of those I
think as a keep your head up and and as
you're going through things are you a
slave it's sort of like being productive
versus being busy are you a slave to the
process or the tool are you going
through this stuff because that's what
you were taught or that's what you think
it's supposed to be or is it actually
providing value to the customer the
world famous like not world I get maybe
it is now to me one of the most famous
things that is similar to this pick just
about any pick any object we in language
is that when you build a class the first
thing you do is you write getter and
Setter methods for everything for all
the properties so you write all your
properties you write all these Getters
and Setters great awesome there's tools
that can do that but the thing is it's
like you may not need all of those so
you just did all of that work even if
it's mindless work and you may think
like I wrote 400 lines of code bully for
you that may not actually be codee that
ever gets used so keep an eye out on
these kinds of things also uh last thing
manifest agile manifesto. org I highly
recommend you check it out we even talk
about the 12 principles that they get
into because it really does get into
some things that I think you're probably
going to be convicted as they say it's
like the it's like the Ten Commandments
everybody's broken one if not all of
them the the 12 principles of agile
software you can easily find
probably where you have screwed up on
every one of them and where you can make
some improvements and thus become a
better developer that being said it's
time for us to motor on continue to uh
we're going to be very agile and we're
going to like Sprint pivot and all that
other kind of all those words all those
Buzz words but we'll be right back
before you know it for our next episode
and we'll see what we're GNA we'll come
up with whatever we're going to come up
with at that point have a good one
[Music]
Transcript Segments
1.35

[Music]

27.32

all right we have hit record and as

30.08

always we got to figure what the hell

31.64

we're going to talk about

34.2

so

37.2

um I was oh this will be near and dear

40.879

to our heart um I want to talk about the

44.12

habit of getting better at agile and

46.96

this specifically but um I think sdlc

51.079

but I think agile in particular I think

53.28

there's some good habits we can do there

56.239

and um it's a little bit on the lines of

58.8

learning but I think we can talk a

60.64

little bit about some things that you

62.719

can do some habits that you can take

64.519

that you can have that will help you be

67.04

better at agile even if you don't have a

68.92

full team or even if you're not doing it

71.159

but it's things like hitting on those

73.119

rituals and and honestly just looking at

75.119

the agile Manifesto and thinking about

77.24

keeping some of those uh those core

80.24

pieces in mind while you're doing your

82.32

development because I think that is I

86.28

think would help a lot of people even if

87.72

you don't do like scrum or anything like

89.52

that but I

90.96

think going through the you know the

93.88

main keeping some of those things in

96.079

mind were are I think H highly useful

99.159

and I think there's some ways that we

100.28

can do that almost like when you did

101.6

your for a while where you had your

103.079

alarm that would go off it's like you

104.52

know are you being busy or productive

106.159

kind of thing is that kind of a some of

108.079

those regular sanity

110.24

checks yeah I like that and that kind of

113.04

flows with some of the conversations

114.56

we've had this week uh about agile and

117.28

ceremonies

118.719

and uh I also threw two out there which

121.6

we could probably discuss next but I had

123.799

like utilizing Ai and then using virtual

129.119

environments uh let's see what are you

131.56

thinking on utilizing

133.68

AI we not talked about it yet I guess we

136.28

haven't have we

138.44

no so what are you

141

thinking uh kind of like we we had the

143.68

conversation one or two back about goo

146

like how to Google Google like maybe go

148.44

just go through some habits of like what

150.12

are some daily things that you could

152.64

start practicing with AI to see if

154.92

they're you know to help streamline or

157.44

automate your processes oh I like that

160.12

okay so we'll do that for the second one

161.64

tonight

163.28

today um yeah because we're going to get

167.519

close we got yeah after this we can

171.44

after we're done you can figure out when

172.68

our when we're going to have to start

173.959

our Christmas specials because I think

175.4

those are coming up that maybe week I

178.12

think next week we'll do our Christmas

179.36

specials so cool so AI to end the year

182.599

is actually probably not a bad one for

184.2

the most part or probably end the year

185.799

so I like

188.12

that um and I'm just going to wing it on

190.28

the good and the bad because I always do

192.08

because that's just that takes too much

193.64

thought all right let me throw a little

196.879

more light on the subject if I can reach

199.56

make sure your notifications are off

202.08

make sure notifications are on so they

204

beep all the time that way people know I

206.92

am around thank you

210.879

the nice thing too is I only have Focus

212.56

for so long so it's like all

215.2

right once it comes back on we got to

218.12

wrap this sucker

219.48

up three

222.64

two well hello and welcome back we are

225.799

continuing our season of building better

228.68

habits because we are building better

230.72

developers you on the other end are

233.2

developers that we are building better

234.76

ones of you we are helping you help

236.72

yourself become better whether you're

238.879

actually a developer not because there

240.36

are a lot of developer related things

243.04

that we found are very useful even if

245.28

you're not by title or trade a developer

248.4

technology is everywhere and there's a

250.04

lot of these tools and things we

251.319

discussed that are going to help you do

252.879

a better job essentially of making

255

technology your friend and finding a way

257.199

to use it this episode we're actually

259.88

going to talk about one of those things

262.16

little spoiler alert is we're going to

263.479

get into the world of agile a little bit

265.88

or agile depending on which side of the

267.919

ocean you live on and that is coming up

271.12

soon but first I need to introduce

273.12

myself I am Rob Brad I'm one of the

275.12

founders of developing or also a founder

277.16

of RB Consulting where we help you just

280.199

sort of like this is instead of just

281.8

building better developers it's more

283.039

like building better businesses we help

285.919

you leverage technology take what you've

287.919

got and take what's out there and find a

290.4

good mix of that so that you become more

293

efficient at what you're doing through

295.16

integration automation simplification we

298.28

find ways to to take that sprawl of

301.68

technology and turn it into something

303.6

that is a a nice pretty little thing

305.56

that helps you drive your machine faster

308.16

cleaner better than a regular

310.88

tuneup on the world in this world of

313.36

challenges that we have put

315.52

together I I'm going to I'm going to

318

throw because I keep coming back to it I

319.72

love the Pomodoro thing doing just a

321.479

little bit um one thing that's like

323.84

Michael has talked about is the struggle

325.88

of keeping them small and actually like

327.84

you know doing 25 minutes stop and move

329.759

on and one of the things I've played

332.12

around with a little bit is having like

333.639

a long and a short pomodoros I've had

336.199

some where I'll just say you know what

337.4

I'm essentially going to do effectively

339.36

like two back to back because in a 25

341.919

minutes it actually works really well

344.039

goes back to Old School school blocks of

346.8

where you had basically 50 minutes and

348.44

then 10 minutes before you went to your

349.84

next class and I've tried that a little

351.919

bit I want to say that has worked out

354.919

actually really well um it is sometimes

357.52

a little bit of a stretch to get that 50

359.16

minutes before before somebody

360.08

interrupts me but when I do it's

362.28

actually been very productive uh another

365.199

one of the things is gone back to uh the

367.72

building a brand I have gone back to

369.88

that several times uh working on the

372.08

brand working uh in my business instead

374.72

of on my business and have found a lot

377.199

of little tweaks uh it's actually sort

380.16

of a downside because a lot of it is

382.479

generating a to-do list for myself

384.16

because I'm like oh I got to do this got

385.36

to do that got to do this got to do that

387.52

but it is getting me at least back into

389.24

it and getting me to refresh myself on

391.28

some of the things that are that are out

393.4

there um another one that's on the to-do

396.599

list it's been really interesting one as

399.4

I said as I I really struggle because I

401.68

have daily to-do list but I have sort of

404.72

expanded that out a little bit because

407.36

I'm trying to think of that you know

408.84

those two or three things I want to do

410.36

every day I'm also instead of doing my

413.08

daily list is causing me to go back and

415.759

look at other items that I've got on

418.4

like my general back blog of stuff to do

420.879

and things like that or just revisit in

423.28

some cases I'll look at things and go

424.96

you know what I haven't thought about

426.16

this in a while for example I had not

429.4

really looked at my Amazon server

433.24

allotment of stuff and a little bit of

435.68

something that got me in there reminded

437.599

me that I hadn't really reviewed stuff

439.4

in a while I started looking in there

441.199

and I'm probably going to save myself I

443

don't know not a lot not a ton but at

445.199

least 10 or 20 bucks a month maybe more

446.879

than that on servers uh plus I actually

449.08

will have more servers for less money so

450.8

there's like some bonuses there because

452.28

I was looking at looking at licensing

455.44

and making sure like I do for other

458.4

businesses making sure that I'm making

460.08

the best use of the licenses and the

461.759

technology that I have so it's a little

463.319

bit of of drinking from your your own

465.8

cup kind of thing or you know practicing

467.8

What You Preach good things bad things

471.36

good thing was I took a whole weekend

473.84

off basically I got to I got to hang

477.24

out do went to a different city did a

480.72

whole lot of different stuff were just

483.759

fun time fun times fun times the bad

486.36

side of that is I was exhausted by the

488.96

time I got to the end of the weekend I

490.72

was actually looking forward to going

492.28

back to work this week because I needed

494.28

a break from having too much fun last

496.319

weekend now I did not have that with

498.84

Michael so he's going to share his story

500.8

around all of this go ahead and

502.039

introduce

503.599

yourself hey everyone my name is Michael

506.08

malash I'm one of the co-founders of

508

developer Nur also I am the founder of

510.759

Envision QA where we help businesses

513.64

build software customize and tailor to

516.44

their needs if you're struggling with

519.24

your current software stack or you don't

521.719

have a software stack you don't know

523.12

where to begin give us a call we'll help

525.04

you figure out what it is you need and

527.04

build a solution that works for

529.44

you good and bad uh let's see good uh

535.24

we're getting closer to Christmas I'm

536.76

getting back into that holiday mood

538.56

starting to watch the field good

539.64

Christmas homework movies um kind of

543.24

putting me back in that good kind of

545.279

mindset for the holiday uh bad which

547.959

will go into uh kind of our

551.68

challenges I was doing really good with

553.8

the Pomodoro Technique and kind of

555.6

staying on track small little iterations

559.04

and following a plan of things to do

562.68

until I worked on building this little

565.959

server idea I had for a project I'm

568.16

working on and what was probably a

573

really decent estimate of about a day's

575

work to build any type of server from

576.72

scratch when you're definitely building

578.399

Hardware machines not cloud-based

580.959

machines there's always that little

582.839

intri intricacies you run into and this

586.6

one kind of went from okay it's almost

589.399

there to next thing I know I'm 24 hours

591.64

in just spent 16 hours straight plowing

595.2

my way through to hit a brick wall that

599

basic we had to Pivot um we hit

601.839

something that

603.079

just the solution was not going to work

606.04

at all for what we

607.8

wanted so we uh had to Pivot downside

611.04

was the fact that I spent 16 hours

613.2

straight literally glued to my machine

615.2

because it's like every time I turn out

616.76

I almost got we'll get the clock us four

618.8

hours later all I think I'll get nope

622.72

so bad habit good habit go back to that

626.279

list go back to taking the Pomodoro and

628.56

say take when you do get to your braks

632.2

also take a moment maybe if you're on

635.399

multiple pomodoros of the same

638.92

issue set a goal or a check kind of a

643.399

sanity check after four of these should

646.56

I continue or do I need to Pivot so uh

650.88

that's kind of where I'm at for uh our

652.959

challenges beyond that everything else

654.639

is going good you know typically I'm

657.32

following the Pomodoro really well

659.88

uh I've actually been really cranking it

662.12

with automating things so I'm keeping

663.76

track of what I'm doing because I'm

664.88

building servers and we typically have

667.16

to replicate so everything I have I'm

669.44

taking and I'm just converting it to a

671.48

script so I can run on the next machine

673.839

or now that I'm back in the cloudbased

675.519

world we'll just take snapshots as we go

678.12

and be able to spin things up quickly so

681.36

keeping that in mind you know that'll

683.36

save my sanity hopefully going forward

686.639

and it will save yours if you keep track

688.88

of what you and see if you can automate

692.399

it now this actually leads us into the

695.279

word using that word pivot leads us into

697.36

the world of agile which is one of the

699.56

things that is a a strength of of the

703.04

agile approach now they interesting

705.6

thing about this and why I I felt like

707.76

this was a good building better

709.36

developers building better habits kind

711.399

of thing is one I think a lot of people

714.88

don't know what agile really means is

717.68

that they they have all of these like

721.12

they say it's pair programming or it's

723.48

Sprints or something like that and agile

726.12

is actually meta to that or or predates

729.959

that to some extent I guess he doesn't

731.8

even predate it it was it is it got they

734.48

got merged somewhere and they they are a

736.16

little bit different

738.04

however this does touch on things like

741.639

the which is part of the challenge we're

742.92

going to touch on things that are really

744.279

more in the scrum world and some of the

747

the the ceremonies and things like that

748.76

that go on because we're going to talk

750.32

about building better habits now I want

752.519

to I want to start with reiterating

756.68

there's four main things more four main

760.079

values that are what the agile Manifesto

763.279

puts together and if you ever want to

764.519

look at it agil manifesto. org it's out

767.519

there it's been there forever it's very

768.839

easy to read and it's very actually

770.44

insightful as a developer it's one of

772.279

those things like we've talked about the

774

4-Hour Work week and some other things

775.92

out there that we revisit on a regular

778.8

basis

779.959

and I think the agile Manifesto is one

782.079

as a developer you should because it's

783.88

going to help you I think often be a

786.6

check of like am I doing this one of

788.519

those kind of thing am I doing this am I

789.839

doing it right now the four values are

793.079

they said that you know they've sort of

794.92

the Preamble is hey we're a bunch of

796.32

developers we've built a lot of systems

799

and this is what we've learned and these

800.839

are the four individuals and

802.959

interactions over processes and tools as

805.56

far as these are the things that we have

806.959

come to Value so individuals and inter

809.24

actions over processes and tools working

812.04

software over comprehensive

814.68

documentation customer collaboration

817.24

over contract negotiation and responding

820.36

to change over following a plan now that

823.32

last one is a perfect example of what

825.36

Michael just ran into is that there's

827.24

sometimes particularly when we get into

829.399

the software development world if you're

830.92

in the waterfall World sometimes you're

833.12

sort of stuck it's like you've got to

835.519

plow through you've got to get this

837.04

thing done because there are down ex

839.44

issues that you have to worry about

841.48

because you built in the requirements

843.199

it's there everybody's counting on it

845.12

all of that kind of stuff in this agile

847.639

World there are some things that yes

849.959

there are requirements that are sort of

851.8

they're Loosely required you know tied

854.399

to this thing so he can look at it and

856.199

he can say you know what this is taking

859.04

more time than we needed to it's more

860.88

complicated we needed to it's not what

862.8

we need or whatever it is and he can

865.44

change and that's exactly what agile is

868.24

about is it's not necessarily about hey

870.24

we've got this plan we've got to execute

871.8

we've got to do all this stuff we can

874.16

change on a regular basis we are you

876.639

know it's I used it several times when

878.8

we talked when we were going through

880

some of the the lectures about it it's a

882.639

difference between laying out a yard

885.56

stick versus having like let's say

888.399

little 6inch rulers and using that to

890.88

get to your point because the yard stick

892.519

once you lay it down you're going from

893.759

point A to point B that's it your your

895.959

path is covered but if you've got these

898.16

little 6 in you know 6inch rulers that

900.639

you're doing along the way you're like

901.72

hey I'm going to go here for a while oh

902.88

maybe I'm going to go here or I'm going

903.92

to go here you may go off in a

905.56

completely different direction than you

907.8

originally planned on it because the

910.519

world is Ever Changing as they say and

913.399

there's always things that come up

914.6

you're your customers may change your

916.48

focus the the the budget for a project

920.32

may disappear the goal the scope of a

923.32

project could change dramatically and

925.44

I've seen that on numerous projects and

927.12

that's why you do Sprints is you you

929.8

sort of go in you you plan somewhat I

932.839

mean you're planning like a a Sprint or

934.36

two or three or four ahead maybe but

936.319

generally speaking you you know you're

938.079

you're still saying staying loose and

940.56

flexible in how you approach things and

942.8

I want to put that in and I think that

945.199

actually fits with sort of the daily for

947.88

example the daily to-do list that we

949.56

talk about is that yes we've talked

951.519

about having uh like your your career

954.079

road map which is obviously going to

955.72

spend many many many years it's going to

957.279

spend decades versus we talk about uh

960.319

annual goals and and quarterly goals and

962.959

monthly goals and things like that but

964.399

when you get down to that daily that

967.079

does allow you on a given day to to

969.72

Pivot it is in a sense it's an agile way

972.8

to look at things and we'll talk about

974.959

that a little bit more as we get into

976.519

the Habit side of this and the challenge

978.56

side of it but now I want to sort of

980.639

throw this over to Michael and get some

982

of your feedback and your thoughts along

983.68

this and and where you want to go in the

985.56

this agile discussion because we're

988.24

agile like that

991.16

yeah it's funny like your yard stick

993.319

versus rulers it's a really good analogy

996.12

and when you were saying that what

998.319

popped into my head initially was not

1000.199

necessarily software but the bridge

1002.319

collaps in Baltimore

1004.68

so you had a direct path from A to B

1007.16

well something fails and it collapses

1009.92

what do you do you know you can't really

1011.44

pivot because you have this one path but

1013.8

if you have multiple paths to get to

1015.519

somewhere if one's blocked you can go

1017.44

somewhere else to get there so that was

1019.759

just a funny analogy cuz we watched so

1021.92

much of that collapse when that happened

1024.559

um and that sticks with me a lot

1027.079

especially with the agile process

1028.959

because even though like I ran into that

1031.72

situation where I was stuck for hours it

1035.48

was one of those though where at the end

1037.64

of the day it wasn't a critical failure

1039.679

we could pivot we could move on we could

1041.52

do something else to still keep the ball

1044.52

moving you know as we work with

1048.24

ceremonies try to work to our daily

1050.919

routines especially with

1053.48

teams everyone kind of has a

1056.64

different process or different

1059.64

ceremonies as to how they work with

1061.64

agile and you and I have talked about

1063.44

this many different times because we

1065.039

kind of um have different approaches to

1068.24

this and it's kind of funny because at

1071.64

the end of the day we're still trying to

1073.52

do the same thing but you're fighting

1075.88

like especially corporate you're

1077.48

fighting that too many meeting mindset

1079.799

sometimes where it's like do we really

1081.52

need a meeting to talk about in the

1083.96

agile sense yes

1086.24

because the ceremonies are designed in

1088.919

such a way that we keep that ball moving

1091.76

we keep the process moving if anyone's

1094.039

got any blockers we work through those

1095.919

issues and we can pivot we can move

1098.039

forward and then you get away from that

1100.64

kind of waterfall approach that Rob

1102.36

mentioned where you have to plan

1104.48

everything out first and then you know

1107.08

this is our path we can't deviate we

1109.08

have to get there but life changes you

1111.88

know it's like I don't know if anyone's

1114.799

still on Windows 10 you're probably

1116.32

getting popups constantly telling you

1117.88

that hey windows isn't Windows 10 isn't

1120.4

going to be supported anymore you need

1121.84

to upgrade well oh your machine isn't

1124.039

supported now you need to go buy a new

1126.28

machine these are things that can help

1129.08

be planned for and avoided with like

1131.679

agile you just plan things out but you

1134

plan them out in a way that puts working

1138.48

over over you know kind of like you said

1141.28

like planning out all the documentation

1142.88

first you kind of get a idea of what it

1145.159

is and you start writing it start

1146.44

building it

1147.52

out although there's times I'll push

1149.84

back on that like if we're starting a

1151.6

project sometimes you do have to do a

1154

little bit of waterfall to get enough

1157.52

information from a customer sometimes to

1159.559

figure out what they want now granted

1162.28

sometimes their ideas change and you'll

1164.88

pivot a lot on that um that's where

1167.52

agile comes in but sometimes certain

1169.76

things do require a little more planning

1171.96

up front so it's a little more waterfall

1174.28

is in the requirements phace but once

1176.679

you get to the development and the start

1179.48

putting things together that's where

1181.28

agile comes in that's where you start

1182.799

really using that uh ruler versus the

1185.799

yard stake approach to get things from

1188.28

point A to point B

1192.52

faster and I guess what I was kind of

1195.48

curious because you mentioned the um

1199

customers versus contract um kind of the

1202.4

third value that you mentioned there

1205.44

what are some examples of that because I

1207.44

have not really touched upon that too

1209.72

much with the agile experiences that

1211.679

I've worked with so that is one that I

1215.159

think is it tends to be more of I guess

1218.32

in a as a development manager or or

1221.4

things like that but really the customer

1223.52

collaboration over contract negotiation

1226.72

is uh for lack of better terms it's it's

1230.36

it's nickel and diming on either side of

1232.76

it so what happens is is that we can get

1235.039

into situations and it's really if

1237

you've been in a larger organization or

1238.84

if you are in a larger organization

1240.559

where there are things like change

1242.2

requests and things like that that go on

1244.28

and even if you're in a small

1245.76

organization or if you're if you've got

1247.88

a side hustle or something like that

1249.28

there is in any given contract there is

1252.48

going to be potential for change

1254.32

requests somewhere along the way there's

1255.6

a scope change or something along those

1257.159

lines now

1259.24

the thing is and this actually gets into

1261.84

the whole idea of like fixed bid

1263.52

projects versus hourly and some things

1265.84

like that that are a whole different

1267.799

soap box that I can get on and and

1269.679

lecture about and and wax poetic about

1273.559

but it really comes down

1275.919

to working with your customer to give

1279

them a to get to a win-win situation it

1281.799

is working with them to give them

1284

something that is valuable to them as

1287.2

opposed to getting into a fight over a

1290.6

dollar or you know or a dollar amount

1292.88

even because it's it's the kind of stuff

1294.559

where it's like yes you know you want

1296.799

this thing that's going to cost

1299

$110,000 and instead of getting in you

1302.2

know them saying well we could probably

1303.84

afford $9,000 and and you're like no you

1306.84

know well how about 95 you know instead

1309.4

of getting into the contract negotiation

1311.2

and spending all of that time trying to

1313.36

agree on what you're building you could

1315.4

spend that time building the thing a

1318

good example is I I dealt with somebody

1321.039

that was not there was like a slow pay

1323.32

go situation going on and they're like

1326.039

well I'm just not going to you I'm not

1327.679

going to work for the customer because

1329.24

they're not paying so I'm not going to

1330.76

do the work and it's like well all

1333.4

you're doing is just pushing kicking

1335.32

stuff down the road you're actually

1336.919

hurting yourself as well as them because

1338.64

now you're not doing the work and so now

1341.2

you're going to have to come back you're

1342.159

going to have to ramp back up and now

1344.4

the customer is not going to be happy

1345.64

cuz they're not getting what was

1346.76

promised and so you know instead of

1350.32

addressing the problem in that case they

1352.559

ended up saying well I'm just going to

1354.2

pull back and it's it's a negotiation

1357.279

strategy but it's I mean maybe not a

1360.12

good one you might agree or disagree

1361.88

with that but instead of going to the

1364.32

customer and saying look you know you're

1367.559

not paying on time I'm delivering on

1370.36

time we need to work on that and then

1372.52

figuring that out and instead of you

1374.44

know beating him over the head like a

1376.36

good example A lot of times in that case

1377.88

is like if don't pay me by this day then

1380

we're we're going to stop work

1381.44

completely or we're going to shut down

1383.96

all the servers or whatever it happens

1385.64

to be and instead of getting into these

1388.2

like you know us versus them mentality

1391.12

the customer collaboration is when

1392.64

you're like look we're all working to

1394.52

get this thing done and if you're not if

1396.84

you come into a project and you're doing

1398.559

it for the money you're just doing

1400.52

because like I see dollar signs and I

1402.76

just want to get paid then don't do it

1405.12

you're not ever you will never be a

1406.919

better developer if you do that

1408.76

guarantee you because you're not doing

1411.279

it to be a developer you're doing it to

1413.48

the you know to earn some money if you

1415.679

want to do that that's fine but you know

1418.159

listen to us keep listen to us because

1419.96

maybe you'll sometime see the light but

1423.12

don't think that that is ever going to

1424.559

make you a better developer it's going

1425.679

to make you maybe a better negotiator or

1427.88

salesman or something like that but it's

1430.32

not about development at that point the

1432.919

contract negotiation is all sales and

1436

and that kind of stuff customer

1438.799

collaboration is where you're sitting

1440.24

there with them and saying hey you have

1442.559

a problem we want to solve it and

1445.88

there's always a budget there's always a

1447.32

reality there there's like there's a

1448.76

certain level of how well you can solve

1450.64

that problem and so it's working with

1452.44

them to figure out okay maybe we can't

1454.48

we can't solve it 100% but maybe we can

1457.08

get you 80% there or maybe we can't give

1459.96

you the poror solution that you think

1462.12

you want but you're going to find out

1463.96

that the Kia no offense to either of

1465.72

these cars or manufacturers or anything

1467.679

like it but maybe like you just need the

1469.96

Kia solution because you don't need the

1472.279

all that other crap and there's a lot of

1474.36

that this goes back to again something I

1476.159

can preach on for days because people

1477.799

will end up buying software and spending

1480.039

money on stuff they really don't need

1481.919

they don't they never use it and so they

1484.279

have all these features and all these

1485.44

things that they're not using why spend

1487.64

extra money to get there why get stuck

1491.08

into contract negotiations and wasting

1494

time over things that you really aren't

1496.159

going to use anyways and this goes to

1498.039

this is on both sides of it it is as a

1500.279

developer working with the customer and

1502.039

as a customer hopefully working with the

1504.399

developers to realize that you guys are

1506.08

on the same page and or you guys have

1508.919

the same goals you have the same desires

1511

we should all want if you're being a

1513.72

better if you're here you're building

1514.72

better developers you do you want to

1516.399

build software that people use and so

1519.44

it's not as much about the Bucks that

1521.919

are involved and I think most of us

1523.96

would take a successful project at 10%

1528

less of what we could have earned as

1529.88

opposed to a failure of a project where

1532.6

we earn an extra 20% bonus somewhere

1534.72

along the way that's those and I'm very

1537.6

happy you asked that because I do think

1539.12

that's one that as developers we don't

1541.399

think about it in those terms as often

1544.52

because we'll get in and argue with our

1546.399

boss or the other teammates or things

1548.52

like that about well this has to be this

1550.559

color that has to we have to use this

1553.36

standard or we have to use this you know

1555.559

this data value or whatever it is we

1557

have all these little knit picky things

1559.52

so while this is talking about at a a

1561.64

customer level I think we often get lost

1564.399

in the details as well and it's

1567.08

like everybody's argument is fine you're

1571

better off just picking one and moving

1572.64

forward than you are spending time

1574.279

arguing so one did that answer your

1576.279

questions and then thoughts on that yeah

1578.88

that answered my question but it gave me

1580.279

a follow-up question for you so not to

1584.76

detract Too Much from the agile

1586.799

conversation but within that contract

1588.72

negotiation or kind of working with the

1591.2

customer kind of like arbitration things

1593.399

like that to keep things moving forward

1594.76

because we always do want to provide

1597.159

better services to make things better at

1599.64

the end of the day we want to provide

1601.44

them something that is better than what

1603.48

they have even if it's just cleaner

1606.2

code but within the contract

1609.12

negotiations not necessarily as you're

1611.24

going on about pay but at the beginning

1613.32

so as you're in that research phase that

1616.559

deep dive into the requirements and

1618.24

flushing out what they

1619.96

need how do you avoid getting into the

1622.72

Trap of what they have versus what they

1625.72

need to kind of get that happy medium to

1629.159

within the conversations you know kind

1632.12

of for a odd comparison is where oh I

1636.48

want this button up here and I want it

1638.799

to be purple it doesn't matter you just

1640.6

need a button that

1642.32

works how what is your suggestion to our

1646.6

listeners and viewers to kind of avoid

1649.48

that early on not necessarily later but

1652.279

at the beginning so that you kind of can

1654.96

still provide the benefit but maybe not

1657.679

at a higher cost that you would

1659.24

initially want this really does come

1662.08

down to it really it's it I think you

1665.279

win and lose this actually at the

1667.12

beginning of a project at the initial

1668.88

phases because what you what you want to

1670.919

do with now if it's a cust you've worked

1673.36

with it's different but somewhere along

1674.96

the way there is an initial the start to

1678.279

the relationship and if while you're

1680.72

building up that in that initial phase

1682.84

of of building that relationship and

1684.48

figuring out how you're going to

1685.559

interact with the customer if you build

1688

trust and help them understand that

1690.399

there are things that they need to bring

1692.399

to the table and there are things that

1694.2

you bring to the table and for them to

1696.519

trust you where you're in your lane and

1698.6

you trust them when they're in their

1699.919

Lane then I think it does help those

1701.76

things so for example let's say you're

1704.84

going along and they're saying there's

1706.48

there's a couple ways to approach that

1707.72

where you you show them something let's

1710.399

say you're you've got some mockups for

1712.76

this U solution that you're going to

1714.559

build for them and they're you're in the

1716.48

negotiation phase essentially they're

1718.039

trying to figure out what do they want

1719.159

what don't they want and this is a good

1722.279

example because at this point what they

1724.279

want and what they don't want should not

1726

come down to a purple button it's

1728.559

there's certain functionality they need

1730.08

there's a problem they need solve so

1731.64

this goes back to our favorite what is

1734.08

the why why are they actually doing this

1736.679

and so if they bring up something like

1737.799

that say hey this needs to have a purple

1740.84

button there now you could say you fool

1744.919

you are not paying attention to what you

1746.88

need to be paying attention to that will

1749.08

probably not win you a contract or Nice

1752.24

Guy of the Year award or gal of the Year

1753.84

award or anything else like that but

1756.559

what you can do is which a lot of times

1759.36

you can start with the Positive approach

1760.76

where you just say okay what is the a

1764.08

lot of times this is a great one what is

1766

the business reason for that what is the

1768.36

business logic behind that why does that

1770.48

need to be purple why does it need to be

1772.159

there because there could be a

1774.36

legitimate reason there could be

1775.64

something where they're like we've got a

1777.6

person that is colorblind and can only

1779.08

see purple or something like that or or

1782.159

if you know it could be something weird

1783.84

like the sun shines at that spot at a

1785.799

certain time of the day and if it's not

1787

purple then we can't I just random stuff

1790.88

but if you don't know their business and

1793.559

you don't like they do then they may be

1795.44

able to bring you something but I think

1796.88

it's it's often frame that as a what is

1800.559

the what is the business reasoning

1802.76

behind that because if it's just they

1804.96

say and sometimes they'll say well there

1806.24

is no reason I just like the color

1807.6

purple and I want a button there then

1809.96

you can go to well what is the benefit

1812.64

to you of that being purple and being

1815

there versus it being pink and over on

1816.919

the other side of the screen or

1818.039

something like

1819.159

that and if they ask you know if they

1821.88

just say well I'm the customer and I

1823.2

want to do it then you say well I

1825.159

understand that but I'm trying to be a

1827.24

good

1828.559

uh consultant or I'm trying to be a good

1830.72

vendor for this solution and when you

1834.12

maybe that you say that that actually

1836.2

adds a cost potentially it adds a cost

1839.039

or it's something else we have to check

1840.36

or it's something that's going to be

1842.159

makes this more complicated than it

1844.08

needs to be and so we just want to

1846.36

ensure that you really are stepping into

1848.519

this knowing that you are adding a

1851.159

complexity to this

1853.36

solution and we don't I don't you know I

1856.32

don't have to see why I just want to

1858.36

make sure that you understand that

1859.399

you've done it so whatever your

1860.96

reasoning is if you don't want to

1862.159

explain it that's fine but if you do

1864.12

explain it to me then maybe I can help

1865.679

you with alternate Solutions or help

1868.6

design this better in other areas

1870.44

because I'll find out for example that

1872.36

you love purple buttons okay cool I'm

1875.399

going to make buttons purple wherever I

1877.36

want you to click on them and I'm going

1878.919

to make them green because you hate

1880.799

green wherever I don't want you to click

1882.24

on buttons or something like that I mean

1883.36

there's there are things that we can do

1885.519

based on even the most for lack of a

1888.36

better term irrational likes and

1890.039

dislikes of a customer is we can use

1892.24

that we can leverage that and make a

1893.96

custom solution for them and so this

1896.44

goes back to this is a customer

1898.48

collaboration instead

1900.48

of you don't need that or something that

1903.799

is very much like now you've got a brick

1905.44

wall and you guys are having to argue

1907.159

you're you're on the opposite side of

1908.96

the customer you're coming alongside

1910.6

them and you put your arm around you're

1911.76

like that's a pretty cool button what is

1914.24

the value of having it there or

1915.639

something along those lines and so now

1917.96

you're working on the collaboration side

1919.639

and you're you're working to build their

1921.559

trust and help understand that you want

1923.399

them to you want them to be happy you

1925.519

want them to be satisfied with what

1928.08

comes out but you also are guarding

1930.039

their core idea of there's a problem to

1932.279

be solved and they're spending money and

1934.84

so we want to make sure that you are

1936.159

spending money wisely as much as we can

1938.44

does that make sense does that answer

1939.6

your question as well yeah you actually

1941.88

answered it in a very agile way I love

1943.76

that

1945.24

because it was a great solution

1948.559

in I really like

1951.799

how you turn it around to how is the you

1956

know what is the value of this to you

1958.12

yes I don't need to fully understand it

1959.639

but you just need to understand the cost

1962.12

that was huge or to me that's one of the

1964.799

big takeaways from that along with the

1967.44

collaboration because we do want to be

1969.24

there to provide a solution that the

1972.12

customer wants but in a reasonable and

1975.08

cost- effective way now if they want to

1977.44

pay for it and that's absolutely what

1978.84

they want you put it in there you just

1981.279

do have to make sure that you

1983.88

communicate the cost and complexity to

1986.72

the customer because they don't

1988.84

understand software or in most cases

1990.799

your customer is not a developer so when

1993.84

we do talk to them it can't be in Tech

1996.84

it has to be in common language that

1999.799

they can understand and that also isn't

2003.12

talking down to them so that when you

2004.639

are communicating it makes sense to both

2007.159

parties and and you can for like a

2009.88

better sense collaborate on the solution

2011.84

versus hammer and

2013.799

nail and that is really where agile

2016.519

comes in is that you you know part of

2018.559

that too is we don't have to make the

2020.159

decision on that button right now if

2021.76

we're in the beginning of a project we

2023.399

don't have to make that decision we can

2025.679

like you can basically just say we're

2027.76

going to leave fine cool we'll leave it

2029.96

there no problems and then you can

2031.84

always come back later down the road and

2033.799

then fight that battle if it even needs

2036.12

to be fought and maybe that screen never

2037.96

exists it maybe that button never exists

2040.159

it may be that customer gets fired and

2043.639

somebody else gets hired I mean there's

2044.799

all kinds of different things that could

2046.159

go on that will change it and so that's

2048.32

where the agile side is is like we don't

2050.32

have to nail we don't have to die on a

2052.48

hill at the beginning of a project we

2054.839

can say sure and we can go with the flow

2057.839

until we need until we're further far

2060

enough along and then we've got

2061.159

something that is much more concrete to

2063.679

fight over as opposed to some sort of

2066.04

just like you know vague ideas that we

2068

have of how this thing will

2069.56

look

2071.079

now the challenge side of this because I

2074.359

think you're you know a lot of you are

2075.56

like wow this is about you know big

2077.32

things and stuff like that the challenge

2079.24

I have for you is does go back to the um

2084.359

the daily tasks kind of thing is I want

2087.919

you to to at the beginning of a week

2090.76

take a look at you know build a few

2093.159

tasks up so essentially like tomorrow

2095.919

what are you going to do in the next

2097

seven days what are you going to

2098.56

accomplish in the next seven days and I

2101.28

want you each day to and you can pick

2104.28

you know one big goal or two or three

2105.88

big goals or something like that but

2106.96

then each day you're going to make a

2108.44

progress toward make progress towards

2110.32

these things so not something you can

2112.24

get done in one day let's think of

2113.52

something a little bit bigger that you

2115.079

want to do it maybe one of the other

2116.48

challenges we are and then put that on a

2119.359

list and actually what I'd like you to

2120.599

do is start with I'm going to do this at

2123.64

you know a certain certain time certain

2126.24

window block every day

2129.16

and see how many days you can do that is

2133.32

it more difficult to figure out that

2135.88

time and schedule that thing out and do

2137.8

it at the same time every day or is it

2140.2

easier for you to adjust when you do it

2143.88

and now this is hopefully going to get

2145.24

you into that mindset of things that I

2147.8

think for developers we often are like

2149.599

this is what I feel this is what I

2151.359

thought this is how I have to go instead

2153.8

this is going to help us break that

2155.28

habit or that mindset and realize that

2158.16

hey it doesn't have to actually flow the

2160.319

way we originally did it it can go in a

2163.44

different direction it can evolve it can

2165.4

change because that's where you're going

2167.64

to become a better developer and have

2170.119

some really good habits about you know

2172.52

getting used to being agile changing

2175.119

being more light on your feet in a a

2177.52

professional

2178.76

sense that being said you are not

2181.76

allowed to be agile at all you need to

2183.4

go directly to your email and send us

2185.96

something at info@ develop Andor let us

2188.24

know how things are going what do you

2190.04

like what don't you like let us know how

2192.359

your challenges are going that is

2193.64

actually very interesting to us and

2195.2

especially if there's any insights or

2196.68

habits or anything like that that you

2198.079

are that you building that you finding

2200.28

that this is something that particularly

2202.119

if it's something that we've helped you

2204.56

build this habit because of the

2206.079

challenge when maybe you were you know

2207.8

challenged by it before for example uh

2210.28

the Pomodoro thing and some of the

2211.64

things that uh we've learned as we've

2214.04

gone through these challenges as well

2216.68

you can also leave us comments wherever

2218.88

you're seeing this whether it's out on

2220.56

YouTube on the developer n Channel you

2222.56

can go wherever you're at a you get your

2224.4

podcast there's a way to leave uh

2226.64

feedback and all that kind of good stuff

2228.88

we really you know rank us however you

2230.64

want to but give us a five or one or

2233.359

whatever the review is but it's really

2234.72

more about the content we want to hear

2236.28

from you and also we've got a form out

2238.72

on developer.com so you can get us there

2241.16

at develop andur on X if you want to

2243

send something out that way or if you

2244.359

just want to follow us that being said

2247.04

we have we got to follow ourselves on to

2249.24

the next episode so go out there and

2251

have yourself a great day a great week

2253.359

and we will talk to you next

2256.4

time bonus

2258.68

material there's a lot of bonus already

2260.8

in there I don't know we've like

2261.76

overdone it a little bit I just wanted

2264.359

to throw because I know we kind of

2266.359

talked about you know uh

2268.44

individual um over you know individual

2271.599

uh processes versus uh tools and things

2275

like that but there are still some good

2276.92

agile tool out there like Trello and

2279.4

jira uh that kind of give you that

2283.68

um swim Lane type approach to being

2287.24

agile to keeping track of things um so

2290.8

if you aren't really familiar with agile

2292.64

and just need kind of a visual way to

2294.72

get started look at things like that

2296.52

because sometimes especially for me

2299.24

seeing the swim lanes and seeing where

2301.16

things are and how things are broken

2302.8

down really helps me keep track of

2306.4

things whereas you know if you're not

2308.68

and you're more just a process driven

2310.56

person then you know go for it you it

2313

just if you're really just don't

2315.359

understand agile sometimes that's a good

2316.76

way to just get started that's actually

2319.04

a great area for uh bonus material both

2321.76

processes and tools

2323.44

because processes is one that I I this

2326.2

is near and dear to my heart I'm I'm

2327.8

working through that with a team right

2329.8

now and building out processes and

2331.2

trying to figure out like how to change

2332.56

some and and mindsets and things like

2334.44

that and there's a lot of stuff that we

2336.359

want to implement

2338

but it doesn't always make sense for

2341.04

example the world famous like change

2343.48

control and stuff like that where you

2344.96

have a you have to have a ticket and

2346.8

then it has to run through all these

2348.16

processes it has to be QA reviewed QA

2350.64

blah blah blah blah blah so that by

2353.119

definition a lot of times that means if

2354.68

there's a hot fix it takes at least 24

2357.76

to 48 hours to even get that into you

2359.76

know done and into production and stuff

2361.28

like that but then sometime and it so

2365.119

that process is there for a reason but

2367.56

like everything else there are going to

2368.88

be times where you're like you know what

2370

we need to skip some of this the tools

2372.04

are the same way a lot of these tools

2374.2

will lead you towards or tell you that

2377.119

you need to do a BC and you always have

2379.76

to do this you have to do that thing or

2381.079

you have to you the tool will make you

2383.88

sometimes because they need to in order

2385.68

to provide you some of the reporting

2386.839

they'll make you do certain things and

2389.92

those don't have to be you don't have to

2391.88

do that you can get around it like now

2393.96

granted depends on where you're at at

2395.8

your at your company it may be that you

2398.48

have to do all of this crap so that this

2400.76

certain report gets built at the end

2402.68

correctly at the end of the day but if

2405

that's not the case then it may be that

2407.16

you can like you can skip one every so

2409.2

often and you can just like push a task

2411.24

through without it being like this full

2413.76

awesome ticket or you can you can

2415.76

shortcut a couple of things because

2417

you're like you don't have to do all of

2418.28

this flowery stuff around it you really

2420.72

just need to say this is what we need to

2422.48

do this is what we need to fix now the

2424.28

tools have gotten pretty good about

2426.16

working with that a lot of the agile

2427.839

tools because they have ways to do you

2430.119

know simpler versus more complex stories

2432.2

and tasks and stuff like that but just

2434.72

always you know it's one of those I

2436.2

think as a keep your head up and and as

2438.52

you're going through things are you a

2440.44

slave it's sort of like being productive

2442.52

versus being busy are you a slave to the

2444.64

process or the tool are you going

2446.44

through this stuff because that's what

2449.079

you were taught or that's what you think

2450.72

it's supposed to be or is it actually

2453.52

providing value to the customer the

2455.68

world famous like not world I get maybe

2458

it is now to me one of the most famous

2460.319

things that is similar to this pick just

2463.4

about any pick any object we in language

2466.079

is that when you build a class the first

2467.88

thing you do is you write getter and

2469.4

Setter methods for everything for all

2471.48

the properties so you write all your

2473.04

properties you write all these Getters

2474.28

and Setters great awesome there's tools

2477.359

that can do that but the thing is it's

2479.16

like you may not need all of those so

2481.2

you just did all of that work even if

2482.839

it's mindless work and you may think

2484.68

like I wrote 400 lines of code bully for

2487.48

you that may not actually be codee that

2489.64

ever gets used so keep an eye out on

2492.72

these kinds of things also uh last thing

2495.48

manifest agile manifesto. org I highly

2498.079

recommend you check it out we even talk

2499.839

about the 12 principles that they get

2502.24

into because it really does get into

2504.24

some things that I think you're probably

2506.04

going to be convicted as they say it's

2507.72

like the it's like the Ten Commandments

2509.599

everybody's broken one if not all of

2512.359

them the the 12 principles of agile

2515.48

software you can easily find

2517.92

probably where you have screwed up on

2519.839

every one of them and where you can make

2521.16

some improvements and thus become a

2523.2

better developer that being said it's

2525.24

time for us to motor on continue to uh

2528.319

we're going to be very agile and we're

2529.48

going to like Sprint pivot and all that

2531.04

other kind of all those words all those

2532.599

Buzz words but we'll be right back

2535.079

before you know it for our next episode

2537.44

and we'll see what we're GNA we'll come

2539

up with whatever we're going to come up

2540.2

with at that point have a good one

2543.95

[Music]