Detailed Notes
Welcome back to season 21, where we're diving deep into the world of entrepreneurship and technology. In this installment, we're tackling the ever-challenging journey of managing a consulting business, likened to a roller coaster ride. Like the thrill of a roller coaster, entrepreneurship has its ups and downs, twists and turns, but finding balance is key to riding the waves of success.
As entrepreneurs, consultants, and developers, we often find ourselves caught between working in and working on the business. It's a constant struggle to balance being busy with client projects while also dedicating time to growing and developing our businesses. This balancing act is what we refer to as the consulting roller coaster.
What are some of our challenges? The challenge for Michael Meloche at Envision QA (https://envisionqa.com) lies in getting his QA consulting business off the ground. With years of experience in software development, Michael faces the unique hurdle of convincing companies of the value of quality assurance (QA) services. Unlike selling software solutions, QA is often overlooked or misunderstood by businesses focused solely on product development. Michael's struggle is finding clients and figuring out who within an organization to approach and at what level.
Similarly, for Rob Broadhead at RB Consulting (https://rb-sns.com), the roller coaster manifests in the constant juggle between project work and business development. With multiple projects on the go, Rob finds himself switching gears frequently, from client deliverables to administrative tasks like project management and sales. It's a challenging balance but necessary for sustaining a steady pipeline of work.
Challenges of the consulting roller coaster One of the biggest challenges faced by entrepreneurs during the roller coaster ride is the temptation to take on any work that comes their way, even if it's outside their niche or brand. While this may generate short-term revenue, it can lead to a dilution of focus and reputation in the long run.
However, there are strategies for navigating the consulting roller coaster and finding balance amidst the chaos. One approach is to focus on building relationships and marketing efforts targeted at the ideal client base. By defining a clear niche and value proposition, entrepreneurs can attract clients who align with their expertise and vision.
Another strategy is to leverage off-brand projects as opportunities to showcase skills and add value. Even if the project doesn't align perfectly with the business's core offerings, finding ways to incorporate elements of the brand can turn it into a valuable case study or learning experience.
Furthermore, entrepreneurs can use downtime between projects to invest in working on the business. This includes activities such as refining marketing strategies, building out service offerings, or investing in professional development to stay ahead in the industry.
Ultimately, the key to mastering the consulting roller coaster lies in finding a balance between short-term revenue generation and long-term business growth. By staying focused on the target market, delivering exceptional value, and continuously investing in the business, entrepreneurs can confidently navigate the ups and downs of entrepreneurship.
As Michael and Rob continue their entrepreneurial journeys, they're committed to sharing their insights and experiences to help others navigate the consulting roller coaster and achieve success in their ventures. Join us for the next installment as we dive deeper into the world of entrepreneurship, technology, and the pursuit of business excellence.
Additional Resources * Getting Things Done And Avoiding Busywork - https://develpreneur.com/getting-things-done-and-avoiding-busywork/ * Personal Project Management – Small Scale, Big Value - https://develpreneur.com/personal-project-management-small-scale-big-value/ * Balance Your Time in a Busy World: Tools and Techniques - https://develpreneur.com/balance-time-busy-world/ * Why it's counterproductive to lose sleep over a project or deadline - https://develpreneur.com/dont-lose-sleep/
Transcript Text
[Music] well hello and welcome back we are cruising along we are now a couple of episodes into season 21 of the podcast if you're listening if you're on the YouTube site then forget that whole season thing we're just like continuing to crank on after the hundreds of I think it's literally now hundreds of episodes that we put out here this time uh and just to sort of like Circle back a little bit I'm Rob Broadhead uh RB Consulting is my main place rb- sns.com I'm speaking with Michael malash and envision QA Envision QA is his main place we're just really like working our way through the struggles and the problems that we have as entrepreneurs as technologists and this episode I want to talk a little bit about the I talk about the the Consulting roller coaster I think is what I'm I'm going to look at it as because this is a challenge that um Michael is at the beginning of the ride where it's like that slow if you think about a roller coaster it's like like slow everything's cranking you're about to go over the hill but it's like it just Waits and waits and eventually you go over the first Hill and you're You're gone unless it's one of these modern slingshot ones and that's like that's very rare so think more old school like it's probably somebody hand cranking your way up over the hill but then you go really fast but then now you slow down again and that's the roller coaster it's the uh it's that constant challenge of like being busy but then not being able to work like being busy in your business not being able to work on your business or vice versa is where you're not busy enough in your business and you you're in and working on your business but the the revenue is not where you want it to be to be able to really address the working on your business and so it's that finding that balance and some of those challenges and I think that's like just it's one of those things it's always good to to swing back to that every so often and talk about how to ideally flatten that roller coaster out a little bit I mean you're still going to have like a not quite feast and family but definitely you're going to have some Rises and some Falls you're going to have you know depending on what you do and and who your customers are there may be seasonal kinds of stuff where it's like you know maybe your customers are such that more often at the end of the year they're going to like shut down and you're just not going to have projects or at the end of year their projects are going to be all over the place yeah it's it's things like that that you will run into and it's how do we find ways to level that out a little bit and make sure that we are uh working in the business when we need to work in the business we're working on the business when we need to work on the business and so I think to start before I go into a little bit of mine is uh talk a little bit because I know you we we mentioned the other day is let's talk a about your struggles getting started uh got Envision QA is out there you've you've spent some time and some money and you've built the site you've got some some level of materials that you've built out already let's talk about that struggle about it's it's effectively uh even though you've you know been doing this for years it's effectively getting your first customer and some of the the headaches and challenges there yeah so that that is one of the biggest hurdles I'm working through right now uh and it's interesting you know the whole roller coaster thing I feel like right now I'm in know Winnebago trying to drive up you know in the Grand Canyon one of those high rises to get over to the next it's like okay well the car make it uh it is it's very challenging and especially for me me because this particular uh passion of mine doing this uh QA assessment doing this QA company is you know we both have been in software for over 20 years we've kind of worked all the different angles and being a software developer you typically know who to talk to you within a company to sell software to uh kind of it's like oh hey you need this uh solution so you go build them a solution QA is a different animal where they don't a lot of companies don't understand QA or they don't think it's necessary it's like why do we need testing we need a product product makes us money and so the biggest challenge I'm running into is who do I talk to within an organization uh to get my foot in the door you know do I talk to the developers do I talk to the software managers uh do I try to find QA managers which a lot of companies don't have uh do I try to find the project managers do I find the business owners do I need to talk to the CEOs uh interestingly enough I actually just spent the last few days going through a software or chart trying to pinpoint small medium and large companies to figure out where within the organization this conversation needs to be had with QA you know if you're talking to sales you're going to be talking not at the software level but you're going to be talking to them as to what to ask their customers for not just sell them the product but ask them what is your need you know will this fit your need how do you talk to the customer to make sure that you're going to give them the best benefit will this product I'm selling them be something they want or are they going to turn around and return it the next day uh and that's kind of where I'm at right now and uh I've gone out to upwork I've looked at a couple things out there uh which tend to be more service side where business look at QA and they are like oh I need test scripts I need test plans they look at the implementation of QA as typically being selenium scripts or some type of testing manual testing regression testing and that's the struggle I'm dealing with it it's who do you talk to and at what level do you talk to to get your foot in the door yeah and I think that's where you know that is the challenge that in particular when we are QA is a little bit is as you me sort of a little bit unique U because I think you I think it's it's it's almost split it's it really to get a QA program going you have to have somebody high enough up to sort of push that down you know into the organization say this is an organizational standard that we're going to do you have to have that backing and that means that's usually the person like you know as a a high level manager director depends on what your labels are and your your company but it could even be like a CIO CTO type of conversation however you also need to be down at the sort of at the the ground level of the developers and getting them talking about that because there's often depending on what your the corporate size is which is why it's interesting you said that you're sort of looking at small medium and large because I think it's a different uh it's a different equation depending on which organization you're in because it may be something where it's like a a CEO and a developer that's like there's really no spot there and so it's really at that point like you can try to you you probably have to convince the CEO to because they're going to sign the check but you probably have to get your foot in the door with the developer for them to say to the CEO hey this is something we need to do if you get into a bigger organization then it's like figuring out where is that technology ladder Point basically within the organization to say this is a person that is going to be able to write the you know sign the check and push it and provide enough leverage for it to be useful to them because you could just go up to like you could just say across the board all right I'm just going to talk to the CEO I'm G to sell them on it and that's all I'm going to do is like and and you could convince CEOs that this is what we need to do but this goes to like you want to you want to serve the organization you don't want to just be a a talking head or a figure head or or somebody's just coming in and sucking up Consulting dollars and not providing value to the customer so that means that you're going to have to like you have to fight sort of those political battles a little bit of all right the CEO loves it awesome now I need the CEO to help me talk to whoever you know the next level down so I can make sure that they're on board and that they're going to fall and then they're going to have to go down to the next level and make sure that they're on board and so it does make for uh it is a it is a challenging you know first step to go into is is winning that first first U that first client but I think that's actually something that is key to the longer term as well is sometimes we get the first client too easy because we know somebody we you know it's say it's it's a a prior which is always a recommendation you know a prior company we worked with a prior employer something like that where it's almost too easy because now we we already had the connection we already had U like a history with them so we don't have to sell ourselves really with that piece is I think the the challenge is looking at who should we be talking to on a regular basis where is our you know our Niche essentially and how do we communicate that who do we communicate to and then how do we build a a Persona or a um like a social presence or a web presence or a marketing presence in order to be talking to those people on a regular enough basis that we are building those relationships so that you know something's going to hit and we have a project but then that project is going to complete and we want to make sure that we've been building those we've been touching those bases that we have been um essentially feeding those relationships as we're moving forward so that when one rolls off ideally before we complete one another one is kicking in and that's actually something that sort of prompted this discussion was you asked earlier like hey hey you know how's the week been I'm like it's been very busy I'm like that's good and I'm like yes and no it's like there's there is a good side of uh and this is just I guess to peel back a little bit it's like it's me and then I've got developers that work for me um uh three four weeks ago had a whole bunch of new projects hit at the same time that just and I was able to because of the way those hit I was able to basically take those on and start working each of them and giving them enough uh time and and focus to make sure they're moving forward but then also within that I'm trying to figure out how to delegate those out to the developers where does that go and my developers were already sort of wrapping some things up so you get into a little bit of this like how do I uh ramp down one project while ramping up another and then and that's sort of been what I've been in is it's the the extra administrative overhead besides doing a project it's the extra stuff that you have to put the time in to figure out okay how do I how do I create like a a road map for this how do I create Milestones how do I put together estimates how do I take those pieces and uh document them or Define them in a way that I can hand them off to you know the team and and have them start working through stuff so it's been it's one of those it's very busy there's been a lot going on and you know billable hours like that I think we all love to have you know that Revenue stream is is okay but these are there's a couple projects that I know are going to wrap up you know ideally are going to wrap up in at two to three weeks or something like that and so now it's already having to have those Wheels in Motion to have the conversations to be able to be ready with somebody that we've like gone through the sales cycle enough so that we can have another project that's going to pop up or be starting in the next couple weeks as well so there's one rolls down the other one rolls up and it's that frustration of shifting gears when you got a whole bunch of stuff and you're having to touch everything there it's just exhausting because you're constantly having to change and there's that that loss of time that adds up especially over a week you know if you've got if you're losing a half an hour a day on just that which would be actually pretty small I think in most cases if you're doing a lot of uh of gear switching then half hour day is still that's like almost three hours by the time you get to the end of the week and then the other thing is which is a a key just goes back to the the you know simplifying that roller coaster is even in this busy time setting aside time and say I have to have some time that is working on the business instead of in the business I have to keep like sales you I know we're all technologist but I have to keep like doing some of those sales and marketing and branding pieces and conversations and even though uh something I'll talk about in a at another time it's like I've got a little group now that is like my cold calling lead generation people that are out there and I don't have to spend much time I spend a half hour a week maybe talking to them working through sales scripts and things like that and then they just you know direct me to people but then the people they direct me to that's usually you know a half hour to an hour call depending on how it goes and then there's and that's just the introductory you know usually it's like and this goes back to one our prior episode we were talking about like even before people will sign on often you have to have the conversation like why are you doing this what is the problem you're solving where are you at like are are you even at a position in your organization in your where you're at that this is something that makes sense right now does it like yeah it may make sense QA in particular like this may make real sense for you to have a full-fledged you know cicd in regret testing integrated testing and all of those pieces in there at some point but you can't you're not there yet and so it may be something where you have to say hey here's that partial solution or how about we talk in six months or a year from now when you guys have progressed further along to where you're at now I want to ask you this but I'm going to kind of lead it with what I'm going through right now so cuz you mentioned you have highs and lows uh you know and you're trying to keep that that pipeline going so you always roll off one project to another project when you hit those droughts which is kind of like where I'm at starting out with this is there's no income coming in there's expenses going out um you know we can bootstrap 90% of what we do but at the end of the day we still have to spend a little bit of money to get a business up and running you know you have like website costs hosting costs things like that still minimal but you know there's times where you think well I can just go grab a something easy to do or something quick to do that's maybe outside of your brand right outside of your Market uh and you were like well you know your first job might be someone you know uh it's like you know the company I rolled off last year milash Consulting was kind of an internet thing I kind of did everything which meant I serviced everyone and serviced no one um and now I'm in I'm trying to focus I'm trying to stay on brand and just do QA but you know I just got a call from my daughter yesterday she's got a friend that has a photography business wants a photography website all right do I pivot and do that for a little bit of money to get that up and running or do I stay on brand and keep working the business trying to get that relationships going you know how do you deal with that during your down periods this that is actually an excellent question and particularly when you're starting out because we always even if we really well Define our organization and our vision and our Focus we still have to we have to have customers and when you have zero customers and somebody comes to you and it totally off topic out of your brand range it's still like hey I can do this and I can generate Revenue myself uh there are some people that would say never do that don't don't go off brand don't do that and there are arguments against that and I have had situations where I've done that and I've essentially regretted it I've got a a couple of customers that um I've got one in particular I just did I was like I just wanted to help them it wasn't really like it was it would have been uh it could have been like a really good fit but it was one of those as I talked to them their budget and what they wanted to do and what they really were open to doing was not enough and it's essentially in short their technology stuff is a mess it's just like there's all these they've had uh countless developers every developer is a little different they try to just they're at a point right now where they're just trying to just like if there's a new feature it's literally like do not touch any code except for the lines you Chang they have a very strict uh pull request process where like they have we've spent an hour going back and trying to like clean up Whit space so that the diff on GitHub is literally just like the three lines of code that we had to change or something like that and it's just it's stuff that's very painful that I hadn't really had to deal with because we just like a lot of that stuff it's like there's some things you can do so you can easily like diff What You Need to diff they didn't want to do that they had and so it's been a pain and I you know it was somebody that I took because like hey we've got some time and now we almost dread when I get a request from it's like hey can you do this um because it's not it's not a great rate it's usually a pain in the butt we've we've sort of written off I don't know how many hours working with this customer but you also you know now it's but we've provided them some stuff want to leave them you know hanging out to dry but you know going to you it's it's actually great that you mention that because that's one of the things I had a conversation yesterday with somebody that um they want to do they've done all these little individual uh for each of their customers they spin up a a webs a WordPress site that's their site and then the customer can go in and customize it but they've also got some plugins and I think a couple widgets and stuff stuff that they've built so they have like their core customized WordPress starter kit essentially and then they go to a customer they they go in and they basically they've got a designer that just you know changes it up makes it branded to that site and then the the customer spends it up they want to add to it one of the things they want to do as I was talking to them is like they initially were going to build like this whole separate dashboard site for statistics and as I looked at it and got a little further into it I was like you could probably very easily grab a couple of plugins that already exist as far as the uh like the the analytics like Google analytics and some of that kind of stuff that they want to have and they also want to do some of their sales it's basically a product site catalog kind of site so they want a couple of of things to show like sales statistics and Lead statistics and and some of those reports so it's I looked at I like it you're probably better off building a plugin and then just sending that plugin out to because they have access to all those servers it's like just put that plug on plug in to each of the servers turn it on within web WordPress and then boom now they've got a customized dashboard and maybe a couple custom widgets which leads me you know long story short or too long because it's already short story long uh that's one of the things I think I'm gonna I'm G to pitch to you is because I know you've done custom plug-in development stuff when you did the catalog site way back when uh I've got a rough idea of what they need it's not going to be I don't think it's going to be that complicated but I was just thinking like here's an opportunity to send you some work and say hey here's some stuff to help essentially help pay the bills and offset some of your some of what you've done and so thinking about that is all right how do we take that as a an actual example and convert that and so I would what I've done and this may be something you know this is something that'll be a I guess a challenge to you and we'll probably talk about this assuming this thing comes real I think we'll talk about this as we we do uh massage it into something that makes sense and that's what I do is I usually look at it and say okay here's this project that is offbrand but I will find some places in there where I can tie it back to a project that would be on brand where and so for example we've talked about situations where a customer comes in and they really aren't in a position it's like a triage it's just like there's something on fire they need us to put a fire out we can do that we can generate some revenue and as part of that maybe what we do is instead of just that since we're going to leave it in a better situation than they were we could talk about what we did that would be more on brand that you know or what we offered or what we counseled them with cons you know in the Consulting side that is on brand so then we can at least pull those tasks out and say hey this is experienc doing it in your case I think that helps quite a bit because you can say hey I built this thing you know you know I did that like or on the photo site I built this site but along the way here's the things I did to allow for testing of that site so I think like you've got your your testing product maybe you like you build a site out for and you just pointed at that and just sort of be like hey here's like a real or just create a you know something that just creates a bunch of LM tests it's just Bas like hey we went through this and here's where I did an automated test so that from you know going forward I could just validate that the the pages came up or you know whatever the level of testing is they they need um so I think that's sort of what you do is you massage a little bit so thoughts on that yeah so that's an interesting perspective on that because that leads to one of the conversations we've had a lot of where uh we're constantly doing multiple tasks right we're never always just working on one thing and what as developers we tend to do is we try to do things in parallel or things that we can can overlap with other work or other Technologies it's like oh I go do this project I can apply it to this so that's an interesting take on that with the WordPress I you know I could go spin that up and then add some testing tools to that and say hey with this this is how you can apply testing to something like this um it's just interesting though within what kind of led me to this question was because like developer Nur we started out with an idea but then it's like we went kind of down the rabbit hole many rabbit holes for many different things because it's like it's so easy to go do something else that we're comfortable with that we know versus staying on point and doing um you know building what we're trying to build and that's one of the challenges that we have right we don't want to be ambulance the ambulance chasers of software development where we're just chasing any type of tech job but in the same token we do need to keep the you know keep the lights on we got to pay the bills so finding any type of job or jobs that we can do but still work them in such a way that applies to our goal our vision I think is key right yeah and I think that that actually brought up a thought is the um one of the things that I I've we've talked about before and I do every so often is essentially sort of like calling my resume is there will be things I will pull off of a resume if it's out there somewhere because like I don't want to I don't want to go down that path so for example like I'm I have in my P I did a lot of fox Pro and visual Fox Pro stuff for a while had a couple years where I did like entired systems were built like that I don't want to go back to that I don't want to do that don't want anything to deal with it and the challenge is there there may be a migration of somebody that's like hey we have a fox Pro site and now we want to finally bring it into this century and we want to you know do whatever however they want to do it like maybe we want to take that and convert it into you know react native app or whatever it is they whatever their path is and that you want to be able to have somewhere and it's usually it's just like maybe just like the phrase that hey I've worked on this before and that way they can say oh they know Fox Pro and they know react let's say that's where they're going you want to have that but you want to make sure that you like you're downplaying the things that aren't your brand and that you're up playing the things that are uh in particular like I've I've shown you I've got uh essentially like flyers we'll say or like it's marketing you know material that I've got that is based on certain products and projects and I make sure if I'm selling to that kind of a a project that I'm highlighting the things that apply to that kind of project only and there's other things that I'm just I'm not going to worry about and when I'm looking at jobs that's where I'm also going to there's going to be that stuff that's like uh halfway there where it's like ah it's sort of but it's sort of not and I'm not sure where I'm going to get drawn with it and those are the ones where it's those are the hardest ones when you're in a uh when you're like in a down period and you're like I just I really need some Revenue which usually means I'm going to try to like I'm gonna go take a stab at that even if it is you know a little bit offbrand uh but the further it is off of it the more likely I am to like push back against that say nah I really don't want to get into that because that's what you don't want to do you don't want to suddenly have uh and I've run into before we have to clean it up we've got like a a the two years you've been doing this kind of thing and yeah you can be trying to point it to your brand but if you point to any of those other stuff suddenly you realize like wow you look like a you know you look like a c developer because you've been doing C for two years even though you've done other stuff you'll see that thread and then that's where it becomes harder and harder for people to um to understand where your vision is so I think you have to you have to be very choosy about that and I think I almost think if you do pick something off brand or off yeah basically offbrand is one maybe that's where since you picked that to generate Revenue maybe you put a little extra time on that and you provide something that's not directly from the project but that is you doing that kind of work so in your case it would be like hey if I'm going to go write some code build a site and I'm going to generate some Revenue it's like hey I'm going to generate some Revenue but I would normally be doing some business development stuff anyways so what I'm going to do is take a bit of that business development time I would be doing and I'm going to build something additional for that customer and just as a a brief one like I had a customer uh during Co where there wasn't a lot of stuff like things had just sort of like died down it was I was like I just had a lot of free hours basically and I ended up giving them an insane I think they got like a you know from a they got like a 200 Hour project for the cost of like 10 hours or something like that because it was just it was I was like working with him I liked what I was doing it was some work that I could use and Market moving forward and it's just like you know what I'm just gonna like I'm just going to do this for them for free because it's he was a nice guy I liked what he was doing I sort of like I wanted to help them out and I just threw a lot of hours at it because it's like I don't have a other option so I'm GNA use that and I'm going to at least direct those so they are they're useful to me so I know we're getting close to time but I want to kind of piggyback on that a little bit so I liked how you mentioned that you know doing going above and beyond like pick if you do something you go above and beyond and you can still kind of turn it into your brand right so like with the QA assessment I could essentially do like a mini assessment or provide a mini assessment at the end uh of here's what you need uh and even apply it to the photography you know you know what type of things should you be thinking about with the photography side of things that they might not be thinking about um so yeah I really like that that actually I'll piggyback on your piggyback there the nice thing about that is what you could do for something like the photography site is it gives you a a real case study that you can work with so you can build out your materials you can build out your templates for doing that and you can have some of that's an example particularly if you if you work with that customer you say hey can I use you as a reference can I can I use your story and now I'm going to put it on my site and say here's an example of what it looks like and it's in that case it's like a very simple case so you don't have to you know and that's sometimes what people get almost like scared of us because I've done it assessments that are there's hundreds of pages in the final assessment and if it's just a little company they freak out they're like no I'm not this looks like it was done by high-end Consultants because it was at the time it was done for huge organization but this gives you something that maybe you say hey I'm going to essentially use you as a reference so for free I want to just do this for you I'll take I'll walk you through it we'll go through all the you know the the steps of it if you can give me a reference afterwards or a quote or something that's awesome uh if not I just want if I can have your permission to like you know display this and maybe it is where you can just take that and you you know Wipe Out the the company name everywhere but then you have a an example in something that's now some material that you can use moving forward for your business exactly and that's a great point because from a startup or starting out perspective you don't have those references you don't have those testimonials so these are great things to consider when you have no customers or you're needing work or looking for work maybe take on a smaller project or something outside of your main brand take it on but also maybe give them um like an additional um agreement that hey the work I'm going to do for you isn't necessarily pro bono but I'm expecting you know to be able to use the materials I use for you for marketing or get a testimonial from you get maybe word of mouth or something out of that but just make sure that you do the job well and you basically not it out of the park you don't do a half-ass job if you are going to do something like that make sure that one you know you can do it two you do it the best job you can ever do you know be your gold St gold star standard and then three make sure you get their sign off to be able to use them for testimonials and marketing I think that is a perfect place for us to wrap this episode up uh we did get a little bit off topic but hey that's what happens sometimes uh but hopefully I think this and I think this is just one of those that it's us I know I've learned a little bit and and changes a little bit what I'm thinking about is I'm I'm working through some of my projects in the in the week ahead hopefully you guys do the same uh as always if you have any questions or comments shoot us an email at info developin order.com leave something on the out in the comments for this feel free to share to subscribe all those fun things podcast uh wherever you subscribe to podcast you will find us there we're just continuing along and uh I don't know what the season is going to look like it's probably going to be our normal uh we'll go to about 30 some odd episodes we'll see what our our overall theme is we're still figuring that one out but hey if you continue to listen maybe you'll get to learn as we do what the theme is going to be for this season that being said we'll wrap this one up so go out there and have yourself a great day a great week and we will talk to you next [Music] time
Transcript Segments
[Music]
well hello and welcome back we are
cruising along we are now a couple of
episodes into season 21 of the podcast
if you're listening if you're on the
YouTube site then forget that whole
season thing we're just like continuing
to crank on after the hundreds of I
think it's literally now hundreds of
episodes that we put out here this time
uh and just to sort of like Circle back
a little bit I'm Rob Broadhead uh RB
Consulting is my main place rb- sns.com
I'm speaking with Michael malash and
envision QA Envision QA
is his main place we're just really like
working our way through the struggles
and the problems that we have as
entrepreneurs as technologists and this
episode I want to talk a little bit
about the I talk about the the
Consulting roller coaster I think is
what I'm I'm going to look at it as
because this is a challenge that um
Michael is at the beginning of the ride
where it's like that slow if you think
about a roller coaster it's like like
slow everything's cranking you're about
to go over the hill but it's like it
just Waits and waits and eventually you
go over the first Hill and you're You're
gone unless it's one of these modern
slingshot ones and that's like that's
very rare so think more old school like
it's probably somebody hand cranking
your way up over the hill but then you
go really fast but then now you slow
down again and that's the roller coaster
it's the uh it's that constant challenge
of like being
busy but then not being able to work
like being busy in your business not
being able to work on your business or
vice versa is where you're not busy
enough in your business and you you're
in and working on your business but the
the revenue is not where you want it to
be to be able to really address the
working on your business and so it's
that finding that balance and some of
those challenges and I think that's like
just it's one of those things it's
always good to to swing back to that
every so often and talk about how
to ideally flatten that roller coaster
out a little bit I mean you're still
going to have like a not quite feast and
family but definitely you're going to
have some Rises and some Falls you're
going to have you know depending on what
you do and and who your customers are
there may be seasonal kinds of stuff
where it's like you know maybe your
customers are such that more often at
the end of the year they're going to
like shut down and you're just not going
to have projects or at the end of year
their projects are going to be all over
the place yeah it's it's things like
that that you will run into and it's how
do we find ways to level that out a
little bit and make sure that we are uh
working in the business when we need to
work in the business we're working on
the business when we need to work on the
business and so I think to start before
I go into a little bit of mine is uh
talk a little bit because I know you we
we mentioned the other day is let's talk
a about your struggles getting started
uh got Envision QA is out there you've
you've spent some time and some money
and you've built the site you've got
some some level of materials that you've
built out already let's talk about that
struggle about it's it's effectively uh
even though you've you know been doing
this for years it's effectively getting
your first customer and some of the the
headaches and challenges
there yeah so that that is one of the
biggest hurdles I'm working through
right now uh and it's interesting you
know the whole roller coaster thing I
feel like right now I'm in know
Winnebago trying to drive up you know in
the Grand Canyon one of those high rises
to get over to the next it's like okay
well the car make it uh it is it's very
challenging and especially for me me
because this particular uh passion of
mine doing this uh QA assessment doing
this QA company is you know we both have
been in software for over 20 years we've
kind of worked all the different angles
and being a software
developer you typically know who to talk
to you within a company to sell software
to
uh kind of it's like oh hey you need
this uh solution so you go build them a
solution QA is a different animal where
they don't a lot of companies don't
understand QA or they don't think it's
necessary it's like why do we need
testing we need a product product makes
us money and so the biggest challenge
I'm running into is who do I talk to
within an
organization uh to get my foot in the
door you know do I talk to the
developers do I talk to the software
managers uh do I try to find QA managers
which a lot of companies don't have uh
do I try to find the project managers do
I find the business owners do I need to
talk to the
CEOs uh interestingly enough I actually
just spent the last few days going
through a software or chart trying to
pinpoint small medium and large
companies to figure out where within the
organization this conversation needs to
be had with QA you know if you're
talking to sales you're going to be
talking not at the software level but
you're going to be talking to them as to
what to ask their customers for not just
sell them the product but ask them what
is your need you know will this fit your
need how do you talk to the customer to
make sure that you're going to give them
the best benefit will this product I'm
selling them be something they want or
are they going to turn around and return
it the next day uh and that's kind of
where I'm at right now and uh I've gone
out to upwork I've looked at a couple
things out there uh which tend to be
more service side where business look at
QA and they are like oh I need test
scripts I need test plans they look at
the implementation of QA as typically
being selenium scripts or some type of
testing manual testing regression
testing and that's the struggle I'm
dealing with it it's who do you talk to
and at what level do you talk to to get
your foot in the door yeah and I think
that's where you know that is the
challenge that in particular when we are
QA is a little bit
is as you me sort of a little bit unique
U because I think you I think it's it's
it's almost split it's it really to get
a QA program going you have to have
somebody high enough up to sort of push
that down you know into the organization
say this is an organizational standard
that we're going to do you have to have
that backing and that means that's
usually the person like you know as a a
high level manager director depends on
what your labels are and your your
company but it could even be like a CIO
CTO type of conversation however you
also need to be down at the sort of at
the the ground level of the developers
and getting them talking about that
because there's often depending on what
your the corporate size is which is why
it's interesting you said that you're
sort of looking at small medium and
large because I think it's a different
uh it's a different equation depending
on which organization you're in because
it may be something where it's like a a
CEO and a developer that's like there's
really no spot there and so it's really
at that point like you can try to you
you probably have to convince the CEO to
because they're going to sign the check
but you probably have to get your foot
in the door with the developer for them
to say to the CEO hey this is something
we need to do if you get into a bigger
organization then it's like figuring out
where is that
technology ladder Point basically within
the organization to say this is a person
that is going to be able to write the
you know sign the check and push it and
provide enough leverage for it to be
useful to them because you could just go
up to like you could just say across the
board all right I'm just going to talk
to the CEO I'm G to sell them on it and
that's all I'm going to do is like and
and you could convince CEOs that this is
what we need to do but this goes to like
you want to you want to serve the
organization you don't want to just be a
a talking head or a figure head or or
somebody's just coming in and sucking up
Consulting dollars and not providing
value to the customer so that means that
you're going to have to like you have to
fight sort of those political battles a
little bit of all right the CEO loves it
awesome now I need the CEO to help me
talk to whoever you know the next level
down so I can make sure that they're on
board and that they're going to fall and
then they're going to have to go down to
the next level and make sure that
they're on board and so it does make for
uh it is a it is a challenging you know
first step to go into is is winning that
first first U that first client but I
think that's actually something that is
key to the longer term as
well is sometimes we get the first
client too easy because we know somebody
we you know it's say it's it's a a prior
which is always a recommendation you
know a prior company we worked with a
prior employer something like that where
it's almost too easy because now we we
already had the connection we already
had U like a history with them so we
don't have to sell ourselves really with
that piece is I think the the challenge
is looking at who should we be talking
to on a regular basis where is our you
know our Niche essentially and how do we
communicate that who do we communicate
to and then how do we build a a Persona
or a um like a social presence or a web
presence or a marketing presence in
order to be talking to those people on a
regular enough basis that we are
building those relationships so that you
know something's going to hit and we
have a project but then that project is
going to complete and we want to make
sure that we've been building those
we've been touching those bases that we
have been um essentially feeding those
relationships as we're moving forward so
that when one rolls off ideally before
we complete one another one is kicking
in and that's actually something that
sort of prompted this discussion was you
asked earlier like hey hey you know
how's the week been I'm like it's been
very busy I'm like that's good and I'm
like yes and no it's like there's there
is a good side
of uh and this is just I guess to peel
back a little bit it's like it's me and
then I've got developers that work for
me um uh three four weeks ago had a
whole bunch of new projects hit at the
same time that just and I was able to
because of the way those hit I was able
to basically take those on and start
working each of them and giving them
enough uh time and and focus to make
sure they're moving forward but then
also within that I'm trying to figure
out how to delegate those out to the
developers where does that go and my
developers were already sort of wrapping
some things up so you get into a little
bit of this like how do I uh ramp down
one project while ramping up
another and then and that's sort of been
what I've been in is it's the the extra
administrative overhead besides doing a
project
it's the extra stuff that you have to
put the time in to figure out okay how
do I how do I create like a a road map
for this how do I create Milestones how
do I put together estimates how do I
take those pieces and uh document them
or Define them in a way that I can hand
them off to you know the team and and
have them start working through stuff so
it's been it's one of those it's very
busy there's been a lot going on and you
know billable hours like that I think we
all love to have you know that Revenue
stream is is
okay but these are there's a couple
projects that I know are going to wrap
up you know ideally are going to wrap up
in at two to three weeks or something
like that and so now it's already having
to have those Wheels in Motion to have
the conversations to be able to be ready
with somebody that we've like gone
through the sales cycle enough so that
we can have another project that's going
to pop up or be starting in the next
couple weeks as well so there's one
rolls down the other one rolls up and
it's that frustration of shifting gears
when you got a whole bunch of stuff and
you're having to touch
everything there it's just exhausting
because you're constantly having to
change and there's that that loss of
time that adds up especially over a week
you know if you've got if you're losing
a half an hour a day on just that which
would be actually pretty small I think
in most cases if you're doing a lot of
uh of gear switching then half hour day
is still that's like almost three hours
by the time you get to the end of the
week and then the other thing is which
is a a key just goes back to the the you
know simplifying that roller coaster is
even in this busy time setting aside
time and say I have to have some time
that is working on the business instead
of in the business I have to keep like
sales you I know we're all technologist
but I have to keep like doing some of
those sales and marketing and branding
pieces and conversations and even though
uh something I'll talk about in a at
another time it's like I've got a little
group now that is like my cold calling
lead generation people that are out
there and I don't have to spend much
time I spend a half hour a week maybe
talking to them working through sales
scripts and things like that and then
they just you know direct me to people
but then the people they direct me to
that's usually you know a half hour to
an hour call depending on how it goes
and then there's and that's just the
introductory you know usually it's like
and this goes back to one our prior
episode we were talking about like even
before people will sign on often you
have to have the conversation like why
are you doing this what is the problem
you're solving where are you at like are
are you even at a position in your
organization in your where you're at
that this is something that makes sense
right now does it like yeah it may make
sense QA in particular like this may
make real sense for you to have a
full-fledged you know
cicd in regret testing integrated
testing and all of those pieces in there
at some point but you can't you're not
there yet and so it may be something
where you have to say hey here's that
partial solution or how about we talk in
six months or a year from now when you
guys have progressed further along to
where you're
at now I want to ask you this but I'm
going to kind of lead it with what I'm
going through right now so cuz you
mentioned you have highs and lows uh you
know and you're trying to keep that that
pipeline going so you always roll off
one project to another project when you
hit those droughts which is kind of like
where I'm at starting out with this is
there's no income coming in there's
expenses going out um you know we can
bootstrap 90% of what we do but at the
end of the day we still have to spend a
little bit of money to get a business up
and running you know you have like
website costs hosting costs things like
that still minimal but you know there's
times where you think well I can just go
grab a
something easy to do or something quick
to do that's maybe outside of your brand
right outside of your Market uh and you
were like well you know your first job
might be someone you know uh it's like
you know the company I rolled off last
year milash Consulting was kind of an
internet thing I kind of did everything
which meant I serviced everyone and
serviced no one um and now I'm in I'm
trying to focus I'm trying to stay on
brand and just do QA
but you know I just got a call from my
daughter yesterday she's got a friend
that has a photography business wants a
photography website all right do I pivot
and do that for a little bit of money to
get that up and running or do I stay on
brand and keep working the business
trying to get that relationships going
you know how do you deal with that
during your down periods this that is
actually an excellent question and
particularly when you're starting out
because we
always even if we really well Define our
organization and our vision and our
Focus we still have to we have to have
customers and when you have zero
customers and somebody comes to you and
it totally off topic out of your brand
range it's still like hey I can do this
and I can generate Revenue myself uh
there are some people that would say
never do that don't don't go off brand
don't do that and there are arguments
against that and I have had situations
where I've done that and I've
essentially regretted it I've got a a
couple of customers that um I've got one
in
particular I just did I was like I just
wanted to help them it wasn't really
like it was it would have been uh it
could have been like a really good fit
but it was one of those as I talked to
them their budget and what they wanted
to do and what they really were open to
doing was not enough and it's
essentially in short their technology
stuff is a mess it's just like there's
all these they've had uh countless
developers every developer is a little
different they try to just they're at a
point right now where they're just
trying to just like if there's a new
feature it's literally like do not touch
any code except for the lines you Chang
they have a very strict uh pull request
process where like they have we've spent
an hour going back and trying to like
clean up Whit space so that the diff on
GitHub is literally just like the three
lines of code that we had to change or
something like that and it's just it's
stuff that's very painful that I hadn't
really had to deal with because we just
like a lot of that stuff it's like
there's some things you can do so you
can easily like diff What You Need to
diff they didn't want to do that they
had and so it's been a pain and I you
know it was somebody that I took because
like hey we've got some time and now we
almost dread when I get a request from
it's like hey can you do this um because
it's not it's not a great rate it's
usually a pain in the butt we've we've
sort of written off I don't know how
many hours working with this customer
but you also you know now it's but we've
provided them some stuff want to leave
them you know hanging out to dry but you
know going to you it's it's actually
great that you mention that because
that's one of the things I had a
conversation yesterday with somebody
that um they want to do they've done all
these little individual uh for each of
their customers they spin up a a webs a
WordPress site that's their site and
then the customer can go in and
customize it but they've also got some
plugins and I think a couple widgets and
stuff stuff that they've built so they
have like their core customized
WordPress starter kit essentially and
then they go to a customer they they go
in and they basically they've got a
designer that just you know changes it
up makes it branded to that site and
then the the customer spends it up they
want to add to it one of the things they
want to do as I was talking to them is
like they initially were going to build
like this whole separate dashboard site
for statistics and as I looked at it and
got a little further into it I was like
you could probably very easily grab a
couple of plugins that already exist as
far as the uh like the the analytics
like Google analytics and some of that
kind of stuff that they want to have and
they also want to do some of their sales
it's basically a product site catalog
kind of site so they want a couple of of
things to show like sales statistics and
Lead statistics and and some of those
reports so it's I looked at I like it
you're probably better off building a
plugin and then just sending that plugin
out to because they have access to all
those servers it's like just put that
plug on plug in to each of the servers
turn it on within web WordPress and then
boom now they've got a customized
dashboard and maybe a couple custom
widgets which leads me you know long
story short or too long because it's
already short story long uh that's one
of the things I think I'm gonna I'm G to
pitch to you is because I know you've
done custom plug-in development stuff
when you did the catalog site way back
when uh I've got a rough idea of what
they need it's not going to be I don't
think it's going to be that complicated
but I was just thinking like here's an
opportunity to send you some work and
say hey here's some stuff to help
essentially help pay the bills and
offset some of your some of what you've
done and so thinking about that is all
right how do we take that as a an actual
example and convert that and so I would
what I've done and this may be something
you know this is something that'll be a
I guess a challenge to you and we'll
probably talk about this assuming this
thing comes real I think we'll talk
about this as we we do uh massage it
into something that makes sense and
that's what I do is I usually look at it
and say okay here's this project that is
offbrand but I will find some places in
there where I can tie it back to a
project that would be on brand where and
so for example we've talked about
situations where a customer comes in and
they really aren't in a position it's
like a triage it's just like there's
something on fire they need us to put a
fire out we can do that we can generate
some revenue and as part of that maybe
what we do is instead of just that since
we're going to leave it in a better
situation than they were we could talk
about what we did that would be more on
brand that you know or what we offered
or what we counseled them with cons you
know in the Consulting side that is on
brand so then we can at least pull those
tasks out and say hey this is experienc
doing it in your case I think that helps
quite a bit because you can say hey I
built this thing
you know you know I did that like or on
the photo site I built this site but
along the way here's the things I did to
allow for testing of that site so I
think like you've got your your testing
product maybe you like you build a site
out for and you just pointed at that and
just sort of be like hey here's like a
real or just create a you know something
that just creates a bunch of LM tests
it's just Bas like hey we went through
this and here's where I did an automated
test so that from you know going forward
I could just validate that the the pages
came up or you know whatever the level
of testing is they they need um so I
think that's sort of what you do is you
massage a little bit so thoughts on that
yeah so that's an interesting
perspective on that because that leads
to one of the conversations we've had a
lot of where uh we're constantly doing
multiple tasks right we're never always
just working on one thing and what as
developers we tend to do is we try to do
things in parallel or things that we can
can overlap with other work or other
Technologies it's like oh I go do this
project I can apply it to this so that's
an interesting take on that with the
WordPress I you know I could go spin
that up and then add some testing tools
to that and say hey with this this is
how you can apply testing to something
like this um it's just interesting
though within what kind of led me to
this question was because like developer
Nur we started out with an idea but then
it's like we went kind of down the
rabbit hole many rabbit holes for many
different things because it's like it's
so easy to go do something else that
we're comfortable with that we know
versus staying on point and doing um you
know building what we're trying to build
and that's one of the challenges that we
have right we don't want to be ambulance
the ambulance chasers of software
development where we're just chasing any
type of tech job but in the same token
we do need to keep the you know keep the
lights on we got to pay the bills so
finding any type of job or jobs that we
can do but still work them in such a way
that applies to our goal our vision I
think is key right yeah and I think that
that actually brought up a thought is
the um one of the things that I I've
we've talked about before and I do every
so often is essentially sort of like
calling my resume is there will be
things I will pull off of a resume if
it's out there somewhere because like I
don't want to I don't want to go down
that path so for example like I'm I have
in my P I did a lot of fox Pro and
visual Fox Pro stuff for a while had a
couple years where I did like entired
systems were built like that I don't
want to go back to that I don't want to
do that don't want anything to deal with
it and the challenge is there there may
be a migration of somebody that's like
hey we have a fox Pro site and now we
want to finally bring it into this
century and we want to you know do
whatever however they want to do it like
maybe we want to take that and convert
it into you know react native app or
whatever it is they whatever their path
is and that you want to be able to have
somewhere and it's usually it's just
like maybe just like the phrase that hey
I've worked on this
before and that way they can say oh they
know Fox Pro and they know react let's
say that's where they're going you want
to have that but you want to make sure
that you like you're
downplaying the things that aren't your
brand and that you're up playing the
things that are uh in particular like
I've I've shown you I've got uh
essentially like flyers we'll say or
like it's marketing you know material
that I've got that is based on certain
products and
projects and I make sure if I'm selling
to that kind of a a project that I'm
highlighting the things that apply to
that kind of project only and there's
other things that I'm just I'm not going
to worry about and when I'm looking at
jobs that's where I'm also going to
there's going to be that stuff that's
like uh halfway there where it's like ah
it's sort of but it's sort of not and
I'm not sure where I'm going to get
drawn with it and those are the ones
where it's those are the hardest ones
when you're in a uh when you're like in
a down period and you're like I just I
really need some Revenue which usually
means I'm going to try to like I'm gonna
go take a stab at that even if it is you
know a little bit offbrand uh but the
further it is off of it the more likely
I am to like push back against that say
nah I really don't want to get into that
because that's what you don't want to do
you don't want to suddenly have uh and
I've run into before we have to clean it
up we've got like a a the two years
you've been doing this kind of thing and
yeah you can be trying to point it to
your brand but if you point to any of
those other stuff suddenly you realize
like wow you look like a you know you
look like a c developer because you've
been doing C for two years even though
you've done other stuff you'll see that
thread and then that's where it becomes
harder and harder for people to um to
understand where your vision is so I
think you have to you have to be very
choosy about that and I think I almost
think if you do pick something off brand
or off yeah basically offbrand is one
maybe that's where since you picked that
to generate Revenue maybe you put a
little extra time on that and you
provide something that's not directly
from the project but that is you doing
that kind of work so in your case it
would be like hey if I'm going to go
write some code build a site and I'm
going to generate some Revenue it's like
hey I'm going to generate some Revenue
but I would normally be doing some
business development stuff anyways so
what I'm going to do is take a bit of
that business development time I would
be doing and I'm going to build
something additional for that
customer and just as a a brief one like
I had a
customer uh during Co where there wasn't
a lot of stuff like things had just sort
of like died down it was I was like I
just had a lot of free hours basically
and I ended up giving
them an insane I think they got like a
you know from a they got like a 200 Hour
project for the cost of like 10 hours or
something like that because it was just
it was I was like working with him I
liked what I was doing it was some work
that I could use and Market moving
forward and it's just like you know what
I'm just gonna like I'm just going to do
this for them for free because it's he
was a nice guy I liked what he was doing
I sort of like I wanted to help them out
and I just threw a lot of hours at it
because it's like I don't have a other
option so I'm GNA use that and I'm going
to at least direct those so they are
they're useful to
me so I know we're getting close to time
but I want to kind of piggyback on that
a little bit so I liked how you
mentioned that you know doing going
above and beyond like pick if you do
something you go above and beyond and
you can still kind of turn it into your
brand right so like with the QA
assessment I could essentially do like a
mini assessment or provide a mini
assessment at the end uh of here's what
you need uh and even apply it to the
photography you know you know what type
of things should you be thinking about
with the photography side of things that
they might not be thinking about um so
yeah I really like that that actually
I'll piggyback on your piggyback there
the nice thing about that is what you
could do for something like the
photography site is it gives you a a
real case study that you can work with
so you can build out your materials you
can build out your templates for doing
that and you can have some of that's an
example particularly if you if you work
with that customer you say hey can I use
you as a reference can I can I use your
story and now I'm going to put it on my
site and say here's an example of what
it looks like and it's in that case it's
like a very simple case so you don't
have to you know and that's sometimes
what people get almost like scared of us
because I've done it assessments that
are there's hundreds of pages in the
final assessment and if it's just a
little company they freak out they're
like no I'm not this looks like it was
done by high-end Consultants because it
was at the time it was done for huge
organization but this gives you
something that maybe you say hey I'm
going to essentially use you as a
reference so for free I want to just do
this for you I'll take I'll walk you
through it we'll go through all the you
know the the steps of it if you can give
me a reference afterwards or a quote or
something that's awesome uh if not I
just want if I can have your permission
to like you know display this and maybe
it is where you can just take that and
you you know Wipe Out the the company
name everywhere but then you have a an
example in something that's now some
material that you can use moving forward
for your
business exactly and that's a great
point because from a startup or starting
out perspective you don't have those
references you don't have those
testimonials so these are great things
to consider when you have no customers
or you're needing work or looking for
work maybe take on a smaller project or
something outside of your main brand
take it on but also maybe give them um
like an additional um agreement that hey
the work I'm going to do for you isn't
necessarily pro bono but I'm expecting
you know to be able to use the materials
I use for you for marketing or get a
testimonial from you get maybe word of
mouth or something out of that but just
make sure that you do the job well and
you basically not it out of the park you
don't do a half-ass job if you are going
to do something like that make sure that
one you know you can do it two you do it
the best job you can ever do you know be
your gold St gold star standard and then
three make sure you get their sign off
to be able to use them for testimonials
and marketing I think that is a perfect
place for us to wrap this episode up uh
we did get a little bit off topic but
hey that's what happens sometimes uh but
hopefully I think this and I think this
is just one of those that it's us I know
I've learned a little bit and and
changes a little bit what I'm thinking
about is I'm I'm working through some of
my projects in the in the week ahead
hopefully you guys do the same uh as
always if you have any questions or
comments shoot us an email at info
developin order.com leave something on
the out in the comments for this feel
free to share to subscribe all those fun
things podcast uh wherever you subscribe
to podcast you will find us there we're
just continuing along and uh I don't
know what the season is going to look
like it's probably going to be our
normal uh we'll go to about 30 some odd
episodes we'll see what our our overall
theme is we're still figuring that one
out but hey if you continue to listen
maybe you'll get to learn as we do what
the theme is going to be for this season
that being said we'll wrap this one up
so go out there and have yourself a
great day a great week and we will talk
to you next
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