Detailed Notes
In the latest Building Better Developers podcast episode, co-hosts Rob Broadhead and Michael Meloche discuss an uncomfortable but essential part of doing business: what to do when you make a mistake. More specifically, they explore how turning errors into opportunities can be a powerful tool for building customer trust in business, strengthening relationships, and creating long-term success.
Read More: https://develpreneur.com/building-customer-trust-in-business/
🎯 Episode Challenge: Audit Your Agreements
Rob leaves us with a practical challenge:
🔍 Review your current contracts and service agreements.
Ask yourself: * Are your deliverables clearly defined? * Do you specify what happens if something goes wrong? * Is there language covering change requests or dispute resolution?
If you’re missing any of that—or don’t have written agreements—now’s the time to fix it. A firm contract protects you and helps build customer trust in business by setting clear expectations from day one.
Challenge Summary: Review and improve your contracts to better protect your business and strengthen client trust.
*Follow-us on:*
* https://develpreneur.com/ * https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZOuFN_LhczvGyT2KSItH_g/featured * https://facebook.com/Develpreneur * https://twitter.com/develpreneur * http://linkedin.com/develpreneur
*Additional Resources*
* Moving Forward – Releasing Past Mistakes (https://develpreneur.com/moving-forward-releasing-past-mistakes/) * Trust But Verify – Avoid Business Assumptions (https://develpreneur.com/trust-but-verify-avoid-business-assumptions/) * Business Networking Strategies: How to Build Real Relationships That Grow Your Business (https://develpreneur.com/business-networking-strategies-how-to-build-real-relationships-that-grow-your-business/) * Building Real World Software – No More Best Practices (https://develpreneur.com/building-real-world-software-no-more-best-practices/)
Transcript Text
[Music] All right, we'll hit record. We are back. We are going to talk about This is going to be fun, people. We are going to talk like rebates and when to give money, but also when to stand your ground. So, we will see how this one goes because first I got to get some pockets emptied out and we're going to stand our ground and continue on with whatever episode number this one is with a little three, a two. Well, hello and welcome back. We are building better developers. We are in the middle of a season. Actually, not really the middle pass. We are over the hill. We are on our way down cruising towards the end of a season called building better businesses. We're focused a little bit more on the business side of this stuff, the the entrepreneurial side of developer. Uh, also we are the building better developers podcast. I am Rob Broadhead, one of the founders of said podcast. Also a founder of RB Consulting where we sit down with you and help you figure out how to use technology. There's a lot out there. We walk through your business, your processes, your procedures, even your people. The things that matter that make your business hum and the things that are going to make it hum at a better speed and and be more productive to be more, you know, generate more revenue and make your customers happier and all those things because technology, believe it or not, can do that. And we have spent a lot of time in technology solving problems through innovation, integration, simplification, automation. We look at what you have, where you want to be, and we craft that recipe for success that is specific to your organization, and we help you whether it's build your organization, build your customer base, build out your technology, whatever it happens to be to make that most critical and often very pricey investment that you make in technology uh give you the best return on investment that you possibly can. Now, good thing, bad thing. Oh, there's so many things right now in this in this time of this time of turmoil. So, I'm going to go with a good thing, bad thing that may be near and dear to some of your hearts. In recent days, the stock market has done some things. We'll just say it's actually uh once in a-lifetime corrections that now happen fairly regularly. Like the last time it happened was I don't know all four or five years ago when COVID hit and suddenly everything went haywire. And then there's been a few other times that go back depending on how old you are back to like 911 and some of those kinds of things that really messed with your pocketbook in the the 401k and the this investment world. The bad thing is is I was like, you know what, I want to like get into my steady buying and sort of start working my way back in where you do, you know, you just put some money in on a regular basis so you don't have to worry about it. Well, the first chunk I did was right before it plummeted. not a good thing. I was like, ah, I killed it in a bad way on timing. However, it has recently bounced right back. So, it's sort of the the rule of thumb I had is like don't sweat it and sooner or later will come back. This time, the good thing is it came back within like 3 days. So, it's sort of like, you know, it's one of those like when it was it could have been an opportunity to to make a lot of money, but the good thing is I didn't lose a lot of money. So, I'll take that as a win. just like my partner on the other side who's going to introduce himself. Michael, go for it. Hey everyone, my name is Michael Malashsh. I'm one of the co-founders of Developer Nerve, Building Better Developers. I'm also the founder of a company called Envision QA where we work with small to midsize businesses, clinicians, medical offices to help them understand their technology. you know, is the software working for them or are they having or are they struggling to work with the technology to essentially do their jobs? We come in, we help you do an assessment, figure out your processes, and then we analyze the software to make sure that you really are using the right tools for the job. Uh, if you're not, we can help you get the right tools or we can build something custom that meets your needs. Let's see, good and bad this week. Well, similar to what Rob was saying, you know, the markets are in turmoil. Uh I had a little bit better luck. Uh I have a financial guy that uh I waited a couple days for things to really go down and I called him up and I said, "Okay, so what can we buy?" Uh and his comment was anything that's down that gives high dividends. So, we went for that route and uh I think we're going to even though the stocks are down uh historically these companies tend to pay out better dividends. So, I'm looking at that kind of route for my portfolio. Um kind of the other bad thing uh I I guess a little bit uh we mentioned last time, you know, we had some storms come through. I've been walking the property and I'm finding more and more trees down and the ground is so wet still. We've got some erosion issues going on. So, I am going to be spending the next few weeks as it dries cleaning up the yard. Not a fun time for some of us, but that's okay. I'm sure you will get your exercises. At any rate, this episode I want to go into this is a little bit more. This is definitely one of those more uh I guess a more serious topic, one that can make people a little bit uncomfortable because we're going to talk basically about money. Now, we've talked about rate and things like that. But this time I don't think we've ever talked about we have talked a little bit about like you know going in with a lower bid and and loss leads and stuff like that but this one is more about like two things giving back money or when you shouldn't give back money. uh you know rebates in the form of like you know you didn't whether you didn't come through or they think you didn't ca come through or you did something that you're you feel like it's on you so you want to reward your customer back things like that. Now let's go with the my fault kinds of of giving back. Now, generally speaking, it depends on you. A lot of our our our contracts and our agreements are going to be based on some level of delivery whether it is. Now, if it's fixed bid, then it's like there's probably there should be very specific requirements and if you meet the requirements, then you get paid. That's the contract side of it. Now those if those requirements are squishy in some way and then there's arguments about those then you messed up when you got that thing written. Um now you that is where you need to protect yourself is make sure that you are very sure that if you go and actually even in an hourly rate kind of thing is that you're very specific on what you're providing. So look at it if it goes wrong and somebody come back and say well you didn't do this. You want to either be able you want to be able to say I didn't because that wasn't part of the agreement. You don't want to be in a situation where it's like oh yeah I forgot because that means that would be an opportunity for you to say okay I'm you know going to give you a discount or I'm going to get money back or something like that. Now, another thing that I think I have found to be very useful in my long-term relationship with customers is that there are times because almost all of my agreements are hourly rates. There are times that I have given them free hours, that I have given them discounted hours for a while, and even times when I have like wiped some of an invoice off or maybe an entire invoice. I may be like, "You know what? invoiced you, but something came up and we looked at what it is and I'm just going to wipe that off. I'm going to give you a good example of doing so just recently and and how I handled it because I think it is it needs to be something that we think of as a tool on a regular basis. I know we're probably used to we get paid and it's like, "Oh, now it's my money. Nobody gets to touch it." But that's not how it goes because the government's gonna touch the heck out of that for one thing. But the other thing is is that you know it's sometimes we're paid because there was an assumption that something was completed or something did uh went a certain way or uh we were paid but this is a way for us to sort of pay them back to pay them because they have suffered damage or harm or something like that. Now, you do want to be careful in some of these because you don't want to be in a situation where you're basically telling them that you destroyed their business and you're going to give them $10 back because if you did, unless their business was like a really crappy lemonade stand, they're going to come after you for a lot more money. And in the world of the, you know, lawsuits and all that kind of stuff, you have to be very cautious with that. However, a little bit can go a long way. Now, recently I had a situation and this actually goes back flashback to a prior podcast episode where there were some emails that I did not receive. And these were email well and I received them. I just did not through stuff that was going on did not react to them in the proper amount of time. And the customer came back like, "Hey, did you see that?" I like, "Yeah, but oh, I misread it." And so I took it all myself uh because it was it was my fault. I was you I had other things going on. and I was not paying enough attention and missed some stuff. And so I fixed the the issue that he had. And because it did, I am it probably cost him some level of uh of money whether you know maybe like some customers weren't as happy or he didn't get as many customers or something like that. U he was in the middle of an advertising campaign that that may have impacted the numbers on the ad advertising campaign. Now it wasn't anything huge. So it was very it just made sense for me. I wanted to like say, "Hey, I that was my mistake. I want to just not only apologize, but I also want to make sure that I like help you out with that. I'm going to share the burden." So, I said, "I'm going to wipe some because there's, you know, there's outstanding invoices." And even though there are outstanding invoices, I still say, "You know what? I'm going to forgive some of those. I'm going to knock some of those hours off on those invoices as part of the making it right with you." Just as you would expect, like if your cable goes out for a while or for those of you who don't even know what cable is, if your internet goes out for a while or something like that, you're going to expect some level of maybe a, you know, something to come back. Now, sometimes they just won't charge you. They'll say, "Well, you didn't have internet for a day, so hey, guess what? We'll be nice and won't charge you for that day that we didn't provide the service." That's not what you want. You don't want to be those people. You want to say, "Hey, this puts you out. So, I'm not only going to not charge you for that, I'm also going to like, you know, give you some money back or something to help you ease the pain. And that's really what it is is this is where we're we want to ease the pain and the discomfort of our customers, particularly in these cases where we actually are the reason for it, that we fell short on something that they expected from us. Now, even if this is even if you are essentially going above and beyond, if you say to a customer that I'm going to provide above and beyond service or I'm doing this for you or you set that expectation and then you fail on it, then you still need to consider like you've effectively committed to that. So, you need to make sure that you are, you know, that you're helping them out and you're you're making good. Now, the amount we're not going to get into because it can vary widely. It may be um there's some cases where I've taken like an entire project and said, "You know what? I like it wasn't the quality that I wanted it to be and I will just wave the whole thing." Other times it'll be certain hours or uh there'll be free follow-up hours or I'll charge half rate for quite a while to just sort of like offset some of this stuff. There's a lot of different ways you can do it. It depends on what your revenue your like how your revenue is going, your cash flow and things like that. and also the level of oopsy that you did, the level of your mistake. Before I pass on, Michael, I want to flip to the other side because this is another one that has been an issue at times and that is where you do deliver but the customer decides that you should have delivered something else and they b it in some way, form or fashion. Now, usually I've had I've been protected protected most of the time when I've done this through places like Upwork and things like that where they have people that will provide remediation services and they'll make sure that you keep talking and they'll try to, you know, they'll be impartial judges and things like that to help you out. And what usually happens is um actually in the all of the cases I think that I've run into actually they were not fixed bid projects. And that was the thing is that the customer had in their mind it's a fixed bid project. And even though in at least the one case I said you know initially I gave them a rough estimate and I said this is a rough estimate based on what you said we could get this done in you know I don't remember the numbers but it's basically like let's say for example we can get this done in 100 hours and it's going to cost $100 you know or whatever it's going to be. Well and it was you know it had the caveats of well we don't know about this we don't know about this. We don't know about this. these could all cause problems. Well, guess what? Every one of those things occurred. They all caused problems. And then the customer was like was in denial basically and said, "Hey, you know, you should be able to finish this in a week or two, right?" Like, "Well, I don't know. We can see, but like we're going to need, you know, need help from you, need input from you." Uh, and there's still these unknowns. And then those unknowns come up, and then it's like, "Oh, wait. Well, those are going to cost, you know, those are going to change the the whole aspect of the project. And there were several things which is these are the gotchas you got to worry about, particularly picking up uh existing things, is it was like, well, we've already done that, so this works fine. Even though part of the project was it was stated that what was done before sucked and wasn't very good and was out of date and needed to be replaced, but it's like, well, but you know how it was done, so you should be able to just really easy do it. And I say maybe if we can reuse that stuff, but then along the way, the customer is saying, "Well, don't reuse any of that. Start from scratch. It's going to be faster." So, it's on the customer in that case. And particularly in this case, I was felt very vindicated because throughout the thing, I could see that I had paper trails and everything to say, "Look, this is what it's going to take. Here's where the concerns are." And it was done, you know, in an hourly basis along the way. So, it wasn't like it was a surprise, which is one of those things you got to watch out for. You don't want to go bill for 6 months and then suddenly send them an invoice for 6 months and then they now suddenly like, well, wait a minute, I didn't realize there was that much. You want to keep that regular communication. You want to be letting them know that, hey, things are coming up. There's, you know, we're billing or we're doing work or invoice them on a regular basis, things like that. uh ideally invoice them and they should be paying you on a regular basis because you don't want to end up in a situation which I have also been in where you have been too gracious in the invoice cycle and you've invoiced them along the way and now suddenly they want to hold two months worth of work hostage because they figure well now they're just going to threaten to not pay and then you're going to be stuck you know having to do free work for them because they've got that leverage. I have also had a customer that I literally walked out based on that because he said, "Hey, you know, I've got X amount of, you know, they'd paid half of it." And they said, "Well, you know, I'm not going to pay this other half because I think you need to do these three other things that were actually very minor in the grand scheme of things." So, he figured he was going to be able to just get some free stuff. And I was like, "No, you can pay that up and we'll talk about doing the extra stuff or I'll just walk away." And we ended up walking away because he wanted to argue that he needed those extra things. Those are the kinds of things though that are tough conversations because you have to realize that you may leave money on the table. But you also have to realize that you may be throwing good money after bad if you try to chase those things down. So under, you know, protect yourself where you can. And if you're in the right, stand up for yourself and say, "Yes, I did this." Like go to your contracts, go to your things that that you've done, the things you've put in place and verify them. And if you haven't, then learn a lesson and next time do it better. I think that's a good place to stop for now. So I'm going to throw this over to Michael and like what are your thoughts and and maybe where you want to go with this conversation? Yeah. So we've been at this for a long time and there's been many situations where, you know, you make a mistake or you aren't delivering what you promised. And at the end of the day, as a business owner or as a developer, regardless of what your business is, take ownership. If you messed up, own it, fix it, or address it, and help the customer out because you made the mistake, the customer didn't make the mistake. So, in in those situations, like Rob said, you know, you can give them a rebate, give them a discount, um something of that nature to help them out. uh going through the process though sometimes you do get yourself into a situation where there is no way out or there is no way to really appease or correct the situation with your customer. In those situations, sometimes you just have to maybe cut a check for like the last two invoices and say, "Here, you may not be able to pay it all back, but it's like here, you know, sorry we couldn't help you." Um, and essentially walk away or kind of eliminate your part in this process because you're not going to be able to make them happy. uh or you're in a situation where it it's getting so contentious that it's not healthy for either one of you to either party to be in kind of working together for the project. It it becomes counterproductive. Um so in those situations, you know, giving back the money might be an easy way to walk away from the project. Um, I don't want to say easy because, you know, anytime you're dealing with money, it's never an easy thing. But sometimes that's what it takes to make the customer happy enough to say, "Okay, I'm done." Or, "Okay, yes, we'll take that back." You know, give them a a rebate or a refund essentially for some time. Like Rob said, you know, you eliminate the invoices and you kind of start fresh. It's like, "Okay, let's start over or let's reset." And now let's uh one thing we didn't really talk about is um during this process if you have made a mistake re if you can reset with your customer through refunds through discounts whatever change your communication strategy be more upfront or more communicative with your customer to make sure you're on the same page so you can avoid this problem. Um I forget what um you know the bigger corporations you know do when you know they have like a priority one or you know the system goes down that impacts customers. Um do something like that essentially and analyze what caused the problem. How did things go wrong? And then come up with a corrective or an action plan to prevent that and also to communicate better to the customer if it happens again. you want to kind of be a little more proactive in case there is something wrong or something that you're not accounting for. And with software that can happen all the time. So it it's just kind of covering your CA, you know, do things a little differently. So I kind of like how you flipped it around. So I'm going to flip this around a little bit too. So from a more of a customer perspect, like helping the businesses with the customer. So, there's been times where people will come to you, and we've alluded to this in the past, you know, someone will come to you and say, "Hey, I want to build a uh Tik Tok application for $500." You know, no, you you can't do that. Um, but setting the expectations with the customer. Sometimes you have to come in low, especially if you're starting out. may need to bid a little lower on some projects to get your business started. In those situations, the money can kind of be used as a tool. So, you could actually say, "Hey, my typical rate is say $200 an hour, but coming in for the first six months of this project, I'll give you uh you know, I'll work for you for $100 an hour." So, you give them that discount to kind of ease into the project and work in it. And then when you hit that middle part, then you raise your rate. Um, this is not just with new customers. Over time, you're going to run into situations where you're going to have to increase your cost of your rates, uh, or the cost of your product, either due to tariffs, due to inflation, due to just cost of living expenses. Prices do go up. However, you can use that as a bargaining tool when working with your customers. be it an hourly rate like Rob mentioned or doing those uh you know flat rates or uh fixed bids for projects just be very careful and be you have to be very clear on what is covered in the world of AI we mentioned this last time take your proposal drop it into AI and say read this from this customer's perspective and tell me what I'm missing or basically just re read back to me what I put in. You know, tell me how the customer would read this. The other thing you could do is you could also say, hey, what are some of the things I miss or what are some of the pitfalls that could come out of, you know, what did I leave out that could bite me later? And that could help you kind of determine, okay, what could be an addendum or things you could put into the contract that could say, okay, if we run into this, then we need to do this or increase our rate to this or change things around. So these are just clearer ways to communicate with your customer to kind of ensure that your customer stays happy. you take ownership when you make mistakes or if there is a conflict between what the project was initially supposed to be and what it actually ends up turning into. What are your thoughts, Rob? A couple of things there that I I didn't mention. So, I think I want to go a little bit into the how to make this work because you did talk about, you know, things like I'll cut a rate or something like that. There are a couple things I've done that have been very effective. Um, now one I guess before I get too far, I do want to say that there are opportunities where you can reclaim. If you, as Michael started out, like if you make a mistake, own up to it, correct it, do the right thing. And sometimes that can actually turn into a very long u you relationship with a a customer. I had one customer that it it went very bad and um it wasn't wasn't my fault. It was a it was a combination of me and actually somebody else that I was working with that I was a subcontractor for. Um so I mean there was there's some level of my fault in that and some of the things that were done. But once I realized that he was he was promising bigger things than he should. Then um while I ended up losing that relationship I ended up having a good relationship with that customer that lasted for actually you know I think 10 years after that because I said hey I'll help you out. I'll I'll do what I can to, you know, get you guys back on track. Another thing that's worked very well and and is actually very common is do things like uh a bill now and a bill later kind of approach. So maybe it's, you know, maybe you do something where you say, "Well, hey, I'm going to work maybe I'm working 40 hours a week for for a customer, but for now I'm going to bill 10 hours a week and expect that, you know, paid every two weeks or whatever it is or every month or however it is. And then maybe, you know, every other month I'm going to try to get I'm going to expect them to, you know, catch up some of those hours. Or I may even say, "Hey, I'm going to allow you to, you know, you need to pay these hours on a regular basis." Like maybe half the hours you pay on a regular basis, and the rest I'm going to allow you to just sort of pay when you can you can get to them. Um, you know, as long as we're still going and we have a good relationship, then we'll, you know, and then if we're done working, then we're going to expect that we're going to get some of that, you know, pay out of it. Uh sometimes they you have to be very cautious because you don't want to get into a big hole of somebody owing you, you know, $4 billion dollars and, you know, trying to figure out how that's going to come back. But there are different ways you can do it. And some of it may be because you uh for me when I do that, it's because I believe in the product. I believe in the project and I'm expecting that they will be successful over time or I see where they can or are successful enough that as long as I'm patient, then you know that money will flow. And if it works in the a lot of times it has to do with if it works in the normal cash flow of you know the company that I've got then it's going to be it's easier to take that on. Obviously if you're already cash flow uh you know crimp and suddenly somebody's like I don't really want to pay as much go back to the co years to see where that kind of stuff happened a lot. Uh it becomes very very uncomfortable. But I think the the percentage game and the pay now pay later or those kinds of things can be very helpful particularly when they are upfront when you're very clear about it and say I am doing this to help you out or you know I don't want to especially when it's things like you really can't afford this thing right now but we really need to do this for you because it's not worth it to do it halfway because Yes, I could charge you for halfway and we could figure out how to make that work, but it really wouldn't be good. And I wouldn't feel good as a vendor, as a customer, as a partner or whatever, however that relationship is working with you, giving you something that is not what you really need. So, it's it'll feel a little bit like you're overselling them, but a lot of times it comes down to you're you're saying, "No, this is you guys just you're underelling. you're undervaluing what this is going to be to you and we need to find a way to make it work for you. Anyways, uh sometimes it may just be trust where you're like, you know what, I'm going to trust that you're going to get such value out of this that you don't really want to pay now, but when you do, when you see this done product, then it'll work. So, there's a lot of ways that you may look into it, but it all goes back to being comfortable with what and understanding what is the level of risk that you, you know, you're willing to take on. And uh just as somebody that's done that, it's like it's a lot easier to take it on when it's yourself and it's a side hustle than it is when it's your it's your business and you have other employees that are a part of that. They're going to be impacted by it. So yeah, it's it's that is probably going to vary depending on where you are in your career and your entrepreneurial journey as well. I think we'll move right into like from the challenge point of view. How are your contracts looking? How are your agreements looking? Do you have them? If you don't, now would be a good time. Actually, yesterday was the best time to get those in place, but now would be second best, I guess. Um, actually, the best time to get them in place is way before is before you start. Be like, make sure that that stuff is clear before you start a project so that there aren't these gotchas, surprises, and unexpected things either on your side or theirs as you go into the project. So for yourself the challenge review if you have them hopefully you do and if not go out you go to the internet you can find some nice boilerplate kind of stuff that will work for your business type whether it's products or services or whatever it is that you provide so that you have an agreement that works with your customers so they understand what is the expectation what is it that they are going to get for the money that they are giving you and then if it is something that is you know is loosely defined like you sell services and things like that then make sure that you just you do talk about what the service is and provide like go ahead and provide for um you know if there is discussion or if they're unhappy with it or things like that what are the remediation approaches what are the kinds of things that you offer what are the kinds of things that you're going to expect from them that maybe they have to fulfill in order for you to do your job cuz I have been in situations where we've gone in and told a customer well this is a project and you're going to do we're going to do A B C and D and you're going to do FGH and I and they don't do those things and now they're expecting you to do it. They change it. They want to stick to the original contract and that's where you're like, "Nope, sorry. That's a change request. We're going to have to redo this or we're going to have to add on and make sure that you refer to the idea." If you do fix bids or anything like that, anything really, make sure that you have something that is a a way to change scope and to do change requests. So, give that a shot. You will thank yourself in the future when you have something that is a much better agreement than you have today. If all of that works, whether it's now or in the future, shoot us an email at infodelvelopreneur.com and let us know how it goes. What are your like what are your concerns? Maybe some of your worst stories where you have, you know, things have worked out well or maybe they didn't work out so well. Love to hear from you. You can also leave us feedback on out on YouTube and the developer channel. You can anywhere you get podcasts, the building better developers podcast. Leave us a review, leave us feedback, all that kind of good stuff there. developer.com, there are contact forms, there is every one of our articles, I think. I'm pretty sure they're all turned on. So, you can leave comments and feedback there. Anywhere you see us, you can probably find a way to leave feedback. Unless it's on a TV somewhere and you start writing on the TV, that's probably not going to work. But most of you people, I think, have realized that that's that's not how it works anymore unless it's a touchcreen. But we'll see how that goes, too. I may be running a little bit off of the rails right now, so I think it's a good time for me to wrap this one up. Go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. Bonus material. So, one of the things you kind of touched on it, go out and do some research, find some documents online. Uh, Legal Zoom and there are some good business sites out there, uh, small business bureau through the government or through your state. Uh, a lot of them have sample contracts and things that you can use that are fairly well written. Uh, I wouldn't necessarily take anything off the internet without going through some type of lawyer or something and just have them review it and make sure that it is enough of a binding contract that if you do get into trouble or do get sued that you're kind of covered or at least have uh some ground to uh protect yourself uh you know beyond like being a corp, an LLC, etc. uh because when we are talking about money and dealing with customers, you do need to make sure that you do protect yourself at the end of the day so that if you do make a mistake, one hopefully you can rectify it with the customer, but if you can't uh and it ends very badly, you want to make sure that you don't lose the house uh for making that mistake. Yeah, there's things can go things can go very bad for lack of a better term. And uh I have been in some of those. I've been in some of been um I have been part of potential lawsuits in in customers that I've worked with before where I've been actually those were all subcontract I luckily I was not part of those directly but was like a contractor involved in that and had to see where it went really bad with some of the uh the the businesses we're working with. Yeah, the I guess my bonus is I am actually very I'm probably a too trusting person. Uh but hopefully you are not as much as I am. There are some people out there that will take advantage of you. There are people out there that will find every little way they can. Uh I've worked with companies that were basically horror stories. I I will say one in particular I worked with for a while um did not come out very well for me but the people before them was a company that went in and did a fixed bid project. Uh it was 6 months I think that they did. They had a full development team and they did not get paid a scent during that time. And this company was basically it's sort of like they weren't really bragging about it, but they were sort of letting me know that that was who they were. And that was when my relationship with them ended very quickly cuz they were already in a little bit of like, oh, we'll like we'll do a lot of stuff in here. We'll get this thing going and and we would love to have you work for us. And then they, you know, they paid the first invoice and then they didn't pay and didn't pay and didn't pay and kept looking to say like, well, if you do this, we'll get it paid. If you do that, we'll we'll pay it. You know, it's one of those where it's like, no, sorry. walking away. Especially when you say, "Oh yeah, that last company that was in very deep, we didn't pay him a scent." And now basically they wanted me to fix that company's stuff because they got what they paid for. They didn't pay a scent and then they had something that didn't work. So it was sort of like, "Sorry, buddy. That is, you know, God's laughing at you and you better just watch out and before you get struck down." All right, that will wrap this one up before I get struck down because I got other crap I got to do. I got customers that are now like, "Huh, I wonder how I can get some extra money out of him." No, they're not like that. My customers are awesome, actually. Um, that's that's part of being, you know, when you have your own little place, when you have your own company, you get to pick your customers. So, if you don't like them, then they're not your customers anymore. Like, it's not always that easy, but uh you get to a certain point where that is you find that you're you're going to work with the people that are are pretty high quality. So, that is the way to go. I am going to go exit one of these directions and um we will be back. We are not done. We'll come back with a few more episodes. We're getting closer as always. Yeah. If you have oppo, if you have any insight or suggestions or anything like that, we'd love to hear it. Particularly for the next episode, for the next actually next season, actually next episode as well, but next season because we're tossing around a bunch of different ideas as always. And probably as always, we'll figure out what the next season's going to be on like when we get to episode one of the next season because, you know, sometimes we're a little bit uh fast and loose with the episode topics and season topics as well. All right, that being said, you guys go out there. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for watching us. Thanks for putting up with me. Not Michael. He's awesome. Thank you for putting up with me. We will talk to you guys next time. [Music]
Transcript Segments
[Music]
All right, we'll hit record. We are
back. We are going to talk about This is
going to be fun, people. We are going to
talk like rebates and when to give
money, but also when to stand your
ground. So, we will see how this one
goes because first I got to get some
pockets emptied out and we're going to
stand our ground and continue on with
whatever episode number this one is with
a little three, a
two. Well, hello and welcome back. We
are building better developers. We are
in the middle of a season. Actually, not
really the middle pass. We are over the
hill. We are on our way down cruising
towards the end of a season called
building better businesses. We're
focused a little bit more on the
business side of this stuff, the the
entrepreneurial side of developer. Uh,
also we are the building better
developers podcast. I am Rob Broadhead,
one of the founders of said podcast.
Also a founder of RB Consulting where we
sit down with you and help you figure
out how to use technology. There's a lot
out there. We walk through your
business, your processes, your
procedures, even your people. The things
that matter that make your business hum
and the things that are going to make it
hum at a better speed and and be more
productive to be more, you know,
generate more revenue and make your
customers happier and all those things
because technology, believe it or not,
can do that. And we have spent a lot of
time in technology solving problems
through innovation, integration,
simplification, automation. We look at
what you have, where you want to be, and
we craft that recipe for success that is
specific to your organization, and we
help you whether it's build your
organization, build your customer base,
build out your technology, whatever it
happens to be to make that most critical
and often very pricey investment that
you make in technology uh give you the
best return on investment that you
possibly can. Now, good thing, bad
thing.
Oh, there's so many things right now in
this in this time of this time of
turmoil. So, I'm going to go with a good
thing, bad thing that may be near and
dear to some of your hearts. In recent
days, the stock market has done some
things. We'll just say it's actually uh
once in a-lifetime corrections that now
happen fairly regularly. Like the last
time it happened was I don't know all
four or five years ago when COVID hit
and suddenly everything went haywire.
And then there's been a few other times
that go back depending on how old you
are back to like 911 and some of those
kinds of things that really messed with
your pocketbook in the the 401k and the
this investment world. The bad thing is
is I was like, you know what, I want to
like get into my steady buying and sort
of start working my way back in where
you do, you know, you just put some
money in on a regular basis so you don't
have to worry about it. Well, the first
chunk I did was right before it
plummeted. not a good thing. I was like,
ah, I killed it in a bad way on timing.
However, it has recently bounced right
back. So, it's sort of the the rule of
thumb I had is like don't sweat it and
sooner or later will come back. This
time, the good thing is it came back
within like 3 days. So, it's sort of
like, you know, it's one of those like
when it was it could have been an
opportunity to to make a lot of money,
but the good thing is I didn't lose a
lot of money. So, I'll take that as a
win. just like my partner on the other
side who's going to introduce himself.
Michael, go for it. Hey everyone, my
name is Michael Malashsh. I'm one of the
co-founders of Developer Nerve, Building
Better Developers. I'm also the founder
of a company called Envision QA where we
work with small to midsize businesses,
clinicians, medical offices to help them
understand their technology. you know,
is the software working for them or are
they having or are they struggling to
work with the technology to essentially
do their jobs? We come in, we help you
do an assessment, figure out your
processes, and then we analyze the
software to make sure that you really
are using the right tools for the job.
Uh, if you're not, we can help you get
the right tools or we can build
something custom that meets your needs.
Let's see, good and bad this week. Well,
similar to what Rob was saying, you
know, the markets are in turmoil. Uh I
had a little bit better luck. Uh I have
a financial guy that uh I waited a
couple days for things to really go down
and I called him up and I said, "Okay,
so what can we buy?" Uh and his comment
was anything that's down that gives high
dividends. So, we went for that route
and uh I think we're going to even
though the stocks are down uh
historically these companies tend to pay
out better dividends. So, I'm looking at
that kind of route for my portfolio. Um
kind of the other bad thing uh I I guess
a little bit uh we mentioned last time,
you know, we had some storms come
through. I've been walking the property
and I'm finding more and more trees down
and the ground is so wet still. We've
got some erosion issues going on. So, I
am going to be spending the next few
weeks as it dries cleaning up the
yard. Not a fun time for some of us, but
that's okay. I'm sure you will get your
exercises. At any rate, this episode I
want to go
into this is a little bit more. This is
definitely one of those more uh I guess
a more serious topic, one that can make
people a little bit uncomfortable
because we're going to talk basically
about money. Now, we've talked about
rate and things like that. But this time
I don't think we've ever talked about we
have talked a little bit about like you
know going in with a lower bid and and
loss leads and stuff like that but this
one is more about like two things giving
back money or when you shouldn't give
back money. uh you know rebates in the
form of like you know you didn't whether
you didn't come through or they think
you didn't ca come through or you did
something that you're you feel like it's
on you so you want to reward your
customer back things like that. Now
let's go with
the my fault kinds of of giving back.
Now, generally speaking, it depends on
you. A lot of our our
our contracts and our agreements are
going to be based on some level of
delivery whether it is. Now, if it's
fixed bid, then it's like there's
probably there should be very specific
requirements and if you meet the
requirements, then you get paid. That's
the contract side of it. Now those if
those requirements are squishy in some
way and then there's arguments about
those then you messed up when you got
that thing written. Um now you that is
where you need to protect yourself is
make sure that you are very sure that if
you go and actually even in an hourly
rate kind of thing is that you're very
specific on what you're providing. So
look at it if it goes wrong and somebody
come back and say well you didn't do
this. You want to either be able you
want to be able to say I didn't because
that wasn't part of the agreement. You
don't want to be in a situation where
it's like oh yeah I forgot because that
means that would be an opportunity for
you to say okay I'm you know going to
give you a discount or I'm going to get
money back or something like that. Now,
another thing that I think I have found
to be
very useful in my long-term relationship
with customers is that there are times
because almost all of my agreements are
hourly rates. There are times that I
have given them free hours, that I have
given them discounted hours for a while,
and even times when I have like wiped
some of an invoice off or maybe an
entire invoice. I may be like, "You know
what? invoiced you, but something came
up and we looked at what it is and I'm
just going to wipe that off. I'm going
to give you a good example of doing so
just
recently and and how I handled it
because I think it is it needs to be
something that we think of as a tool on
a regular basis. I know we're probably
used to we get paid and it's like, "Oh,
now it's my money. Nobody gets to touch
it." But that's not how it goes because
the government's gonna touch the heck
out of that for one thing. But the other
thing is is that you know it's sometimes
we're paid because there was an
assumption that something was completed
or something did uh went a certain way
or uh we were paid but this is a way for
us to sort of pay them back to pay them
because they have suffered damage or
harm or something like that. Now, you do
want to be careful in some of these
because you don't want to be in a
situation where you're basically telling
them that you destroyed their business
and you're going to give them $10 back
because if you did, unless their
business was like a really crappy
lemonade stand, they're going to come
after you for a lot more money. And in
the world of the, you know, lawsuits and
all that kind of stuff, you have to be
very cautious with that.
However, a little bit can go a long way.
Now, recently I had a situation and this
actually goes back flashback to a prior
podcast episode where there were some
emails that I did not receive. And these
were email well and I received them. I
just did not through stuff that was
going on did not react to them in the
proper amount of time. And the customer
came back like, "Hey, did you see that?"
I like, "Yeah, but oh, I misread it."
And so I took it all myself uh because
it was it was my fault. I was you I had
other things going on. and I was not
paying enough attention and missed some
stuff. And so I fixed the the issue that
he had. And because it did, I am it
probably cost him some level of uh of
money whether you know maybe like some
customers weren't as happy or he didn't
get as many customers or something like
that. U he was in the middle of an
advertising campaign that that may have
impacted the numbers on the ad
advertising campaign. Now it wasn't
anything huge. So it was very it just
made sense for me. I wanted to like say,
"Hey, I that was my mistake. I want to
just not only apologize, but I also want
to make sure that I like help you out
with that. I'm going to share the
burden." So, I said, "I'm going to wipe
some because there's, you know, there's
outstanding
invoices." And even though there are
outstanding invoices, I still say, "You
know what? I'm going to forgive some of
those. I'm going to knock some of those
hours off on those invoices as part of
the making it right with you." Just as
you would expect, like if your cable
goes out for a while or for those of you
who don't even know what cable is, if
your internet goes out for a while or
something like that, you're going to
expect some level of maybe a, you know,
something to come back. Now, sometimes
they just won't charge you. They'll say,
"Well, you didn't have internet for a
day, so hey, guess what? We'll be nice
and won't charge you for that day that
we didn't provide the service." That's
not what you want. You don't want to be
those people. You want to say, "Hey,
this puts you out. So, I'm not only
going to not charge you for that, I'm
also going to like, you know, give you
some money back or something to help you
ease the pain. And that's really what it
is is this is where we're we want to
ease the pain and the discomfort of our
customers, particularly in these cases
where we actually are the reason for it,
that we fell short on something that
they expected from us. Now, even if this
is even if you are essentially going
above and beyond, if you say to a
customer that I'm going to provide above
and beyond service or I'm doing this for
you or you set that expectation and then
you fail on it, then you still need to
consider like you've effectively
committed to that. So, you need to make
sure that you are, you know, that you're
helping them out and you're you're
making good. Now, the amount we're not
going to get into because it can vary
widely. It may be um there's some cases
where I've taken like an entire project
and said, "You know what? I like it
wasn't the quality that I wanted it to
be and I will just wave the whole
thing." Other times it'll be certain
hours or uh there'll be free follow-up
hours or I'll charge half rate for quite
a while to just sort of like offset some
of this stuff. There's a lot of
different ways you can do it. It depends
on what your revenue your like how your
revenue is going, your cash flow and
things like that. and also the level of
oopsy that you did, the level of your
mistake. Before I pass on, Michael, I
want to flip to the other side because
this is another one that has been an
issue at times and that is where you do
deliver but the customer decides that
you should have delivered something else
and they b it in some way, form or
fashion. Now, usually I've had I've been
protected protected most of the time
when I've done this through places like
Upwork and things like that where they
have people that will provide
remediation services and they'll make
sure that you keep talking and they'll
try to, you know, they'll be impartial
judges and things like that to help you
out. And what usually happens is um
actually in the all of the cases I think
that I've run into actually they were
not fixed bid projects. And that was the
thing is that the customer had in their
mind it's a fixed bid project. And even
though in at least the one case I said
you know initially I gave them a rough
estimate and I said this is a rough
estimate based on what you said we could
get this done in you know I don't
remember the numbers but it's basically
like let's say for example we can get
this done in 100 hours and it's going to
cost $100 you know or whatever it's
going to be.
Well and it was you know it had the
caveats of well we don't know about this
we don't know about this. We don't know
about this. these could all cause
problems. Well, guess what? Every one of
those things occurred. They all caused
problems. And then the customer was like
was in denial basically and said, "Hey,
you know, you should be able to finish
this in a week or two, right?" Like,
"Well, I don't know. We can see, but
like we're going to need, you know, need
help from you, need input from you." Uh,
and there's still these unknowns. And
then those unknowns come up, and then
it's like, "Oh, wait. Well, those are
going to cost, you know, those are going
to change the the whole aspect of the
project. And there were several things
which is these are the gotchas you got
to worry about, particularly picking up
uh existing things, is it was like,
well, we've already done that, so this
works fine. Even though part of the
project was it was stated that what was
done before sucked and wasn't very good
and was out of date and needed to be
replaced, but it's like, well, but you
know how it was done, so you should be
able to just really easy do it. And I
say maybe if we can reuse that stuff,
but then along the way, the customer is
saying, "Well, don't reuse any of that.
Start from scratch. It's going to be
faster." So, it's on the customer in
that case. And particularly in this
case, I was felt very vindicated because
throughout the thing, I could see that I
had paper trails and everything to say,
"Look, this is what it's going to take.
Here's where the concerns are." And it
was done, you know, in an hourly basis
along the way. So, it wasn't like it was
a surprise, which is one of those things
you got to watch out for. You don't want
to go bill for 6 months and then
suddenly send them an invoice for 6
months and then they now suddenly like,
well, wait a minute, I didn't realize
there was that much. You want to keep
that regular communication. You want to
be letting them know that, hey, things
are coming up. There's, you know, we're
billing or we're doing work or invoice
them on a regular basis, things like
that. uh ideally invoice them and they
should be paying you on a regular basis
because you don't want to end up in a
situation which I have also been in
where you have been too gracious in the
invoice cycle and you've invoiced them
along the way and now suddenly they want
to hold two months worth of work hostage
because they figure well now they're
just going to threaten to not pay and
then you're going to be stuck you know
having to do free work for them because
they've got that leverage. I have also
had a customer that I literally walked
out based on that because he said, "Hey,
you know, I've got X amount of, you
know, they'd paid half of it." And they
said, "Well, you know, I'm not going to
pay this other half because I think you
need to do these three other things that
were actually very minor in the grand
scheme of things." So, he figured he was
going to be able to just get some free
stuff. And I was like, "No, you can pay
that up and we'll talk about doing the
extra stuff or I'll just walk away." And
we ended up walking away because he
wanted to argue that he needed those
extra things. Those are the kinds of
things though that are tough
conversations because you have to
realize that you may leave money on the
table. But you also have to realize that
you may be throwing good money after bad
if you try to chase those things down.
So under, you know, protect yourself
where you can. And if you're in the
right, stand up for yourself and say,
"Yes, I did this." Like go to your
contracts, go to your things that that
you've done, the things you've put in
place and verify them. And if you
haven't, then learn a lesson and next
time do it
better. I think that's a good place to
stop for now. So I'm going to throw this
over to Michael and like what are your
thoughts and and maybe where you want to
go with this conversation? Yeah. So
we've been at this for a long time and
there's been many situations where, you
know, you make a mistake or you aren't
delivering what you promised. And at the
end of the day, as a business owner or
as a developer, regardless of what your
business
is, take ownership. If you messed up,
own it, fix it, or address it, and help
the customer out because you made the
mistake, the customer didn't make the
mistake. So, in in those situations,
like Rob said, you know, you can give
them a rebate, give them a discount, um
something of that nature to help them
out.
uh going through the process though
sometimes you do get yourself into a
situation where there is no way out or
there is no way to really appease or
correct the situation with your
customer. In those situations, sometimes
you just have to maybe cut a check for
like the last two invoices and say,
"Here, you may not be able to pay it all
back, but it's like here, you know,
sorry we couldn't help you."
Um, and essentially walk away or kind of
eliminate your part in this process
because you're not going to be able to
make them happy. uh or you're in a
situation where it it's getting so
contentious that it's not healthy for
either one of you to either party to be
in kind of working together for the
project. It it becomes
counterproductive. Um so in those
situations, you know, giving back the
money might be an easy way to walk away
from the project. Um, I don't want to
say easy because, you know, anytime
you're dealing with money, it's never an
easy thing. But sometimes that's what it
takes to make the customer happy enough
to say, "Okay, I'm done." Or, "Okay,
yes, we'll take that back." You know,
give them a a rebate or a refund
essentially for some time. Like Rob
said, you know, you eliminate the
invoices and you kind of start fresh.
It's like, "Okay, let's start over or
let's reset." And now let's uh one thing
we didn't really talk about is um during
this process if you have made a mistake
re if you can reset with your customer
through refunds through discounts
whatever change your communication
strategy be more upfront or more
communicative with your customer to make
sure you're on the same page so you can
avoid this problem. Um I forget what um
you know the bigger corporations you
know do when you know they have like a
priority one or you know the system goes
down that impacts customers.
Um do something like that essentially
and analyze what caused the problem. How
did things go wrong? And then come up
with a corrective or an action plan to
prevent that and also to communicate
better to the customer if it happens
again. you want to kind of be a little
more proactive in case there is
something wrong or something that you're
not accounting for. And with software
that can happen all the time. So it it's
just kind of covering your CA, you know,
do things a little differently. So I
kind of like how you flipped it around.
So I'm going to flip this around a
little bit too. So from
a more of a customer perspect, like
helping the businesses with the
customer. So, there's been times where
people will come to you, and we've
alluded to this in the past, you know,
someone will come to you and say, "Hey,
I want to build a uh Tik Tok application
for $500." You know, no, you you can't
do that. Um, but setting the
expectations with the customer.
Sometimes you have to come in low,
especially if you're starting out. may
need to bid a little lower on some
projects to get your business started.
In those situations, the money can kind
of be used as a tool. So, you could
actually say, "Hey, my typical rate is
say $200 an hour, but coming in for the
first six months of this project, I'll
give you uh you know, I'll work for you
for $100 an hour." So, you give them
that discount to kind of ease into the
project and work in it. And then when
you hit that middle part, then you raise
your rate.
Um, this is not just with new customers.
Over time, you're going to run into
situations where you're going to have to
increase your cost of your rates, uh, or
the cost of your product, either due to
tariffs, due to inflation, due to just
cost of living
expenses. Prices do go up. However, you
can use that as a bargaining tool when
working with your customers. be it an
hourly rate like Rob mentioned or doing
those uh you know flat rates or uh fixed
bids for projects just be very careful
and be you have to be
very clear on what is
covered in the world of
AI we mentioned this last time take your
proposal drop it into AI and say read
this from this customer's perspective
and tell me what I'm missing or
basically just re read back to me what I
put in. You know, tell me how the
customer would read this. The other
thing you could do is you could also
say, hey, what are some of the things I
miss or what are some of the pitfalls
that could come out of, you know, what
did I leave out that could bite me
later? And that could help you kind of
determine, okay, what could be an
addendum or things you could put into
the contract that could say, okay, if we
run into this, then we need to do this
or increase our rate to this or change
things around. So these are just clearer
ways to communicate with your customer
to kind of ensure that your customer
stays happy. you take ownership when you
make mistakes or if there is a conflict
between what the project was initially
supposed to be and what it actually ends
up turning into.
What are your thoughts, Rob? A couple of
things there that I I didn't mention.
So, I think I want to go a little bit
into the how to make this work because
you did talk about, you know, things
like I'll cut a rate or something like
that. There are a couple things I've
done that have been very effective. Um,
now one I guess before I get too far, I
do want to say that there are
opportunities where you can reclaim. If
you, as Michael started out, like if you
make a mistake, own up to it, correct
it, do the right thing. And sometimes
that can actually turn into a very long
u you relationship with a a customer. I
had one customer that it it went very
bad and um it wasn't wasn't my fault. It
was a it was a combination of me and
actually somebody else that I was
working with that I was a subcontractor
for. Um so I mean there was there's some
level of my fault in that and some of
the things that were done. But once I
realized that he was he was promising
bigger things than he should. Then um
while I ended up losing that
relationship I ended up having a good
relationship with that customer that
lasted for actually you know I think 10
years after that because I said hey I'll
help you out. I'll I'll do what I can
to, you know, get you guys back on
track. Another thing that's worked very
well and and is actually very common is
do things like uh a bill now and a bill
later kind of approach. So maybe it's,
you know, maybe you do something where
you say, "Well, hey, I'm going to work
maybe I'm working 40 hours a week for
for a customer, but for now I'm going to
bill 10 hours a week and expect that,
you know, paid every two weeks or
whatever it is or every month or however
it is. And then maybe, you know, every
other month I'm going to try to get I'm
going to expect them to, you know, catch
up some of those hours. Or I may even
say, "Hey, I'm going to allow you to,
you know, you need to pay these hours on
a regular basis." Like maybe half the
hours you pay on a regular basis, and
the rest I'm going to allow you to just
sort of pay when you can you can get to
them. Um, you know, as long as we're
still going and we have a good
relationship, then we'll, you know, and
then if we're done working, then we're
going to expect that we're going to get
some of that, you know, pay out of it.
Uh sometimes they you have to be very
cautious because you don't want to get
into a big hole of somebody owing you,
you know, $4 billion dollars and, you
know, trying to figure out how that's
going to come back. But there are
different ways you can do it. And some
of it may be because you uh for me when
I do that, it's because I believe in the
product. I believe in the project and
I'm expecting that they will be
successful over time or I see where they
can or are successful enough that as
long as I'm patient, then you know that
money will flow. And if it works in the
a lot of times it has to do with if it
works in the normal cash flow of you
know the company that I've got then it's
going to be it's easier to take that on.
Obviously if you're already cash flow uh
you know crimp and suddenly somebody's
like I don't really want to pay as much
go back to the co years to see where
that kind of stuff happened a lot. Uh it
becomes very very uncomfortable.
But I think the the percentage game and
the pay now pay later or those kinds of
things can be very helpful particularly
when they are upfront when you're very
clear about it and say I am doing this
to help you out or you know I don't want
to especially when it's things like you
really can't afford this thing right now
but we really need to do this for you
because it's not worth it to do it
halfway because Yes, I could charge you
for halfway and we could figure out how
to make that work, but it really
wouldn't be good. And I wouldn't feel
good as a vendor, as a customer, as a
partner or whatever, however that
relationship is working with you, giving
you something that is not what you
really need. So, it's it'll feel a
little bit like you're overselling them,
but a lot of times it comes down to
you're you're saying, "No, this is you
guys just you're underelling. you're
undervaluing what this is going to be to
you and we need to find a way to make it
work for you. Anyways, uh sometimes it
may just be trust where you're like, you
know what, I'm going to trust that
you're going to get such value out of
this that you don't really want to pay
now, but when you do, when you see this
done product, then it'll work. So,
there's a lot of ways that you may look
into it, but it all goes back to being
comfortable with what and understanding
what is the level of risk that you, you
know, you're willing to take on. And uh
just as somebody that's done that, it's
like it's a lot easier to take it on
when it's yourself and it's a side
hustle than it is when it's your it's
your business and you have other
employees that are a part of that.
They're going to be impacted by it. So
yeah, it's it's that is probably going
to vary depending on where you are in
your career and your entrepreneurial
journey as
well. I think we'll move right into like
from the challenge point of
view. How are your contracts looking?
How are your agreements looking? Do you
have them? If you don't, now would be a
good time. Actually, yesterday was the
best time to get those in place, but now
would be second best, I guess. Um,
actually, the best time to get them in
place is way before is before you start.
Be like, make sure that that stuff is
clear before you start a project so that
there aren't these gotchas, surprises,
and unexpected things either on your
side or theirs as you go into the
project. So for yourself the
challenge review if you have them
hopefully you do and if not go out you
go to the internet you can find some
nice boilerplate kind of stuff that will
work for your business type whether it's
products or services or whatever it is
that you provide so that you have an
agreement that works with your customers
so they understand what is the
expectation what is it that they are
going to get for the money that they are
giving you and then if it is something
that is you know is loosely defined like
you sell services and things like that
then make sure that you just you do talk
about what the service is and provide
like go ahead and provide for um you
know if there is discussion or if
they're unhappy with it or things like
that what are the remediation approaches
what are the kinds of things that you
offer what are the kinds of things that
you're going to expect from them that
maybe they have to fulfill in order for
you to do your job cuz I have been in
situations where we've gone in and told
a customer well this is a project and
you're going to do we're going to do A B
C and D and you're going to do FGH and I
and they don't do those things and now
they're expecting you to do it. They
change it. They want to stick to the
original contract and that's where
you're like, "Nope, sorry. That's a
change request. We're going to have to
redo this or we're going to have to add
on and make sure that you refer to the
idea." If you do fix bids or anything
like that, anything really, make sure
that you have something that is a a way
to change scope and to do change
requests. So, give that a shot. You will
thank yourself in the future when you
have something that is a much better
agreement than you have
today. If all of that works, whether
it's now or in the future, shoot us an
email at infodelvelopreneur.com and let
us know how it goes. What are your like
what are your concerns? Maybe some of
your worst stories where you have, you
know, things have worked out well or
maybe they didn't work out so well. Love
to hear from you. You can also leave us
feedback on out on YouTube and the
developer channel. You can anywhere you
get podcasts, the building better
developers podcast. Leave us a review,
leave us feedback, all that kind of good
stuff there. developer.com, there are
contact forms, there is every one of our
articles, I think. I'm pretty sure
they're all turned on. So, you can leave
comments and feedback there. Anywhere
you see us, you can probably find a way
to leave feedback. Unless it's on a TV
somewhere and you start writing on the
TV, that's probably not going to work.
But most of you people, I think, have
realized that that's that's not how it
works anymore unless it's a touchcreen.
But we'll see how that goes, too. I may
be running a little bit off of the rails
right now, so I think it's a good time
for me to wrap this one up. Go out there
and have yourself a great day, a great
week, and we will talk to you next
time. Bonus material.
So, one of the things you kind of
touched on it, go out and do some
research, find some documents online.
Uh, Legal Zoom and there are some good
business sites out there,
uh, small business bureau through the
government or through your state. Uh, a
lot of them have sample contracts and
things that you can use that are
fairly well written. Uh, I wouldn't
necessarily take anything off the
internet without going through some type
of lawyer or something and just have
them review it and make sure that it is
enough of a binding contract that if you
do get into trouble or do get sued that
you're kind of covered or at least have
uh
some ground to uh protect yourself uh
you know beyond like being a corp, an
LLC, etc. uh because when we are talking
about money and dealing with customers,
you do need to make sure that you do
protect yourself at the end of the day
so that if you do make a mistake, one
hopefully you can rectify it with the
customer, but if you can't uh and it
ends very badly, you want to make sure
that you don't lose the house uh for
making that mistake.
Yeah, there's things can
go things can go very bad for lack of a
better term. And uh I have been in some
of those. I've been in some of been um I
have been part of potential lawsuits in
in customers that I've worked with
before where I've been actually those
were all subcontract I luckily I was not
part of those directly but was like a
contractor involved in that and had to
see where it went really bad with some
of the uh the the businesses we're
working with. Yeah, the I guess my bonus
is I am actually very I'm probably a too
trusting person. Uh but hopefully you
are not as much as I am. There are some
people out there that will take
advantage of you. There are people out
there that will find every little way
they can. Uh I've worked with companies
that were basically horror stories. I I
will say one in particular I worked with
for a while um did not come out very
well for me but the people before them
was a company that went in and did a
fixed bid project. Uh it was 6 months I
think that they did. They had a full
development team and they did not get
paid a scent during that time. And this
company was basically it's sort of like
they weren't really bragging about it,
but they were sort of letting me know
that that was who they were. And that
was when my relationship with them ended
very quickly cuz they were already in a
little bit of like, oh, we'll like we'll
do a lot of stuff in here. We'll get
this thing going and and we would love
to have you work for us. And then they,
you know, they paid the first invoice
and then they didn't pay and didn't pay
and didn't pay and kept looking to say
like, well, if you do this, we'll get it
paid. If you do that, we'll we'll pay
it. You know, it's one of those where
it's like, no, sorry.
walking away. Especially when you say,
"Oh yeah, that last company that was in
very deep, we didn't pay him a scent."
And now basically they wanted me to fix
that company's stuff because they got
what they paid for. They didn't pay a
scent and then they had something that
didn't work. So it was sort of like,
"Sorry, buddy. That is, you know, God's
laughing at you and you better just
watch out and before you get struck
down." All right, that will wrap this
one up before I get struck down because
I got other crap I got to do. I got
customers that are now like, "Huh, I
wonder how I can get some extra money
out of him." No, they're not like that.
My customers are awesome, actually. Um,
that's that's part of being, you know,
when you have your own little place,
when you have your own company, you get
to pick your customers. So, if you don't
like them, then they're not your
customers anymore. Like, it's not always
that easy, but uh you get to a certain
point where that is you find that you're
you're going to work with the people
that are are pretty high quality. So,
that is the way to go.
I am going to go exit one of these
directions and um we will be back. We
are not done. We'll come back with a few
more episodes. We're getting closer as
always. Yeah. If you have oppo, if you
have any insight or suggestions or
anything like that, we'd love to hear
it. Particularly for the next episode,
for the next actually next season,
actually next episode as well, but next
season because we're tossing around a
bunch of different ideas as always. And
probably as always, we'll figure out
what the next season's going to be on
like when we get to episode one of the
next season because, you know, sometimes
we're a little bit uh fast and loose
with the episode topics and season
topics as well. All right, that being
said, you guys go out there. Thank you
so much for your time. Thanks for
watching us. Thanks for putting up with
me. Not Michael. He's awesome. Thank you
for putting up with me. We will talk to
you guys next time.
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