Detailed Notes
In the latest episode of the Building Better Developers podcast, hosts Rob Broadhead and Michael Meloche dive deep into the art of fostering effective communication, particularly in the tech and development world. They explore developers' communication challenges and provide actionable strategies to encourage open dialogue and productive discussions.
Read More: https://develpreneur.com/fostering-effective-communication-building-better-conversations-for-developers/
*Weekly Challenge: Assess Your Conversations*
To help listeners implement these strategies, Rob challenges them to reflect on their conversations over the next seven days. After each meeting, please take a moment to evaluate whether the statements made encouraged discussion or inadvertently shut it down. Identifying these patterns can help in making conscious improvements.
If you find yourself making statements rather than fostering discussions, challenge yourself to reframe your approach in the next conversation. Use open-ended questions and invite feedback to create a more collaborative environment.
*Additional Resources*
* Business Communication – Critical For Success (https://develpreneur.com/business-communication-critical-success/) * Navigating Communication Tools in Modern Workplaces (https://develpreneur.com/navigating-communication-tools-in-modern-workplaces/) * Embrace Feedback for Better Teams (https://develpreneur.com/embrace-feedback-for-better-teams/) * When To Vent (never) as part of Consulting Communication (https://develpreneur.com/when-to-vent-never-as-part-of-consulting-communication/)
*Follow-us on:*
* https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZOuFN_LhczvGyT2KSItH_g/featured * https://facebook.com/Develpreneur * https://twitter.com/develpreneur * http://linkedin.com/develpreneur
Transcript Text
[Music] that's we are now recording and so let's see we're think like leadership fostering discussions difficult and difficult conversations leadership stuff I think that's a good uh difficult I think you rewarded it under because you had chat GPT hacks difficult and then conversations and confident communication habits was what you put oh I did notice I did note that because that was just something I stole from somebody heard from somebody else that was actually pretty cool so I think I'll do that as like a bonus for one of these we pick that up after so just remind me or hopefully I'll remember that I'll put like little Aster there uh let's do fostering discussions first yeah because my idea around this one was instead of those yes and no questions or like how to take like no we aren't going to do that and flip it around to well how would you do that and then maybe now's not the best time or hey why don't you take a look at that for you know somehow spin it so it's a more positive conversation than just uh shutting it down yeah y exactly it's like and which we all have a tendency to do I also have a tendency to lose my zoom window there we go don't forget to turn off your notifications like I was about to I just got dinged oh I probably should because I'm sure I'll get some level of pinging and I'll get pinging on my other thing but we'll see where there we go Focus do not disturb one hour there we go hopefully so all right we are on the clock now for my do not disturb plus I have a hard stop so we'll have to get cranking so back to here and we'll do our little three two well hello and welcome back We are continuing our season of building better habits we are building better developers we're developing our podcast funny enough I noted the other day that now if you search for develop andur there's actually dentalpreneur shows up more often than develop andur but building better developers has apparently become our primary name that's an SEO issue that we're going to work with at some point we'll come back and talk about such things but not today today we're going to talk about fostering discussions before we do all that though we got to introduce ourselves or at least I'll introduce myself and let Michael introduce himself myself is Rob brev I happen to be one of the founders of develop and or building better developers also a founder of RB Consulting where we are what is known as Boutique Consulting we help people Wrangle technology so when you have that technology sprawl when you have the wild west and your cattle are all over your 4 billion acres of land we help get all that stuff together through simplification automation integration we find ways to and even Innovation we find ways for you guys to go out there take the technology that you have or the technology that's out there that may be best suited for your unique situation and we help you craft that recipes for success that's specific to your company to your organization whether it is through software and tools or even building your team and your road map things of that nature since we're in the building better habits The Habit that has been I think like in feedback that has been the most for me recently is uh it's a new year we're solidly into a new year now and the one that is really like stuck and I've really been happy that I went to is the uh you know find your joy find your happiness kind of thing my 15 minutes a day basically of doing something fun and I combine it with doing something productive it actually sort of combines back when we talked about uh the one that was about building your skills from 15 minutes a day throughout the days just do something that improves your skills and it is great that I have these I guess it's also a little bit of a weakness I have a lot of projects out there that I've started over the years and they're in varying states of of completeness or just barely started but in doing that I've got a lot of different areas that like playgrounds that I can play with technology I can work on a certain skills that I can go back actually I'm doing refactoring on some of these and some of these these are all these little like pet projects and uh Toys effectively of projects that I've got that yes they have value but they are near and dear to me because they solve problems for me this is me in some cases automating or creating a solution for a problem that I had I really recommend that is like find something like that that you can do it's amazing how much that will recharge your uh your day basically as you step into it good thing bad thing very bad Natalie got the flu this last week so she was down for like a solid four or five days and that's just miserable and it was like now I guess there's a good one of the good things has allowed me to like baby her a little bit because it was like I could go you know make tea for her and all that kind of good stuff that you have to do when somebody's sick the other good thing that came out of it is that there was a night that otherwise we probably would have gone out on like a date night and done a bunch of stuff but she was sick in bed and I basically just got to sit around and I caught up on work which you guys may say like that doesn't doesn't sound like fun but if you're like me and you're like I sometimes need to catch up on work that actually is a very good thing somebody who does not need to catch up on work but does need to catch up on his introductions is Michael so go right ahead hey everyone my name is Michael milash I'm one of the co-founders of building better developers also known as develop preneur I'm also the founder of Invision QA where we help businesses uh clinicians analyze their software look at what their tools are and help them improve their processes through technology we can build you applications we can help you find better applications and we can help you even integrate what you have in a more productive more automated way let's see habits so I'm actually going to start with the good and bad so the good for me uh was the fact that my wife went to see her sister for about 10 days so I was able to really get caught up on a lot of stuff so I actually was able to do a lot of fun stuff that I like to do but in the same token uh I was able to really catch up on a lot of work elim which kind of leads to the habits uh but the bad thing was for 10 days I had to deal with all the animals we had in the house and the fact that we dropped to below 10° which here that you know for some of you that may not be a problem but when you have exposed pipes that can be a problem so I've been dripping water for almost 10 days straight and I have it looks like one of those uh you know hole in the roof places I've got buckets of water everywhere thankfully we're warming up and those can go away uh so let me get to the habits so like Rob mentioned you know it's a new year we're kind of getting in further into the year and kind of getting into the things that I like to do so but what I've been focusing on is kind of the anti- habits eliminating the things that just were eating up my time mind LLY so while my wife was gone for 10 days I literally watched two football games and turned the TV off for the entire 10 days uh I take that back I did watch one episode of Fallout I've almost cut up on the series I got so busy I couldn't watch it with that being said though I was able to double down and focus on all my projects really get caught up really move things forward and made a lot of progress so I moved my dial on what I wanted to accomplish further and I feel more productive more energized where where things are going and I did that through things like working on automating my tasks I worked on that through lists like I listed out all the things I do in a day and then I looked I was like wait I can automat automate that finally because we have built enough functionality into some of these systems that we can automate it we don't have to be the one pushing the button so that's been my week and I'm very excited about the conversation we're about to have today and the conversation we're about to have today is about difficult conver actually it's about fostering conversations and this is something I think we struggle with a lot in the developer World U I've been in a lot and I I may be overstating this but I have been in a lot of standups and design and architecture meetings and stuff like that over the years and one of the things that I've seen on a regular basis and that I have had people complain about about various people including myself is that as developers we have the we have a tendency sometimes to just State stuff and sometimes that's seen as I don't know obstinate or arrogant or something like that and people are like hey who are they to to state that and that's that's one issue but I think the bigger issue and this is as we become developers as we become better developers is not so much that we are seen as a jerk or something like that or arrogant in doing it but it's that it shuts down conversation because when we're in a design meeting of some sort when we are pitching ideas the whole idea is that we if we're pitching ideas is that we need feedback just like for example every episode that we do one of the things you will realize that we ask for feedback we ask for you to send us an email and that is because we know that we are better when we have other people feeding what it is that we want to do they're they're feeding these these ideas into us so that now our ideas can blend with these other ideas and eventually you get something that is a community effort in some extent it is the idea of if you go back to you can look at like the bizaar and and stuff like that and that's not that's B AZ not b i z but the idea of um the wisdom of crowds and some of those kinds of things and it's not necessarily that that stuff I'm not going to go into those things as much but it's the idea that like another set of eyes another perspective is almost always going to help us out even if it's a completely distorted perspective the fact that it's out there is something for us to know particularly as developers because we have we have a tendency to get into like that developer Focus particularly with our applications where it's like we're building it to do this and this is how it's got to be done but that sometimes shuts out the idea of a customer that does something completely different from how we do it their process is not the same process that we have as we are building the software that's why it's very valuable to talk to your customers to if you can ride shotgun with them like understand what a day in their life is like when they're using either the application you're going to build or that you've built or the applications that you're recommending to them and so what we want to do is we want to find ways when we're in these discussions whether it's with a customer or it's with our team or whoever it's with that we Foster feedback that we Foster a way to actually have a conversation as opposed to just stating something and moving on and now if you feel like if you feel you convicted in all this join the club this is something that's like it is something that I I think that we do that people in our positions do and so it's just something we need to be uh in about and cognizant of how we state things and how we do things and it is a habit that we need to build to Foster that discussion now if you go to any of the lots and lots of people that are out there that will tell you how to uh build better conversations basically they will tell you how to have difficult conversations how to negotiate and things like that there are and there are excellent books out there so I'm going to summarize some of this stuff but one of the things I think and this is going to get into our challenge but it's basically one of the things we can do is we can try to be more observant about our language about things like saying this is how we need to do this whatever that is tends to sort of shut down conversation because you're basic especially if you are uh the lead developer or an architect or something like that now they're hopefully you're in EN environment where people will question you and say well why do you have to do that but a lot of times that's not the case particularly when you deal with uh entrylevel junior developers and stuff like that on your team that is one of the struggles that I've had quite a bit is making sure when I'm bringing in and Training Up developers and that so I have a very Junior developer one that understand that feels like there's a mentor relationship but also like having them question things and bring their ideas in and discuss their ideas because even if their idea is wild crazy out there on the left field kind of thing it's still important for us to have that discussion and talk about why is that out in left field why is that not a mainstream idea and also in doing so is not to say that it's bad to have something that's way out there because some of the best ideas some of the best Innovation comes from out there nowhere close to where we're thinking about completely outside of the box kinds of ideas and discussions so before I give you like some little magic things to do I'm G to throw this over to Michael let him give his his start on it and we'll get going on this sure thanks Rob so the the funny thing about this one we can go many different ways within this discussion alone the one I'd kind of like to focus on a little bit is opening up the conversation so like you said you have this kind of mentoring relationship going with a younger developer or an early developer in their career and I I've seen this many times over the years many different companies many different teams and regardless of the situation regardless of the Dynamics of the team almost every single situation has very similar kind of Dynamics when it comes to speaking when it comes to conversations meetings um and the relationships within the team some are really good but over time these can erode because of deadlines because you're under pressure to get things done and what typically happens is you're because you're under the deadlines because you're heads down coding because you got to get things done a lot of times we try to shrink that conversation we try to shrink our meeting times how much we interact with people we almost become antisocial because it's like here here's my pitch I got to go back to work it's like we try to get out of these conversations as fast as we can so we get into a lot of yes or no type conversations or statements we make and that really doesn't get the conversation going it's like here I said this like how's your day that's an opener it's like you know um how's the weather well okay it could be raining it could be hot it could be cold it's kind of an opener but not really that open-ended it's like you kind of get an answer and sometimes that kind of kills the conversation where I'm going with this is there are times s when I'm in meetings and I do this as well in fact I got myself doing this the other day where we're discussing a new project we're starting on and we're as a team walking through our conversations of our concerns about deadlines about how we want to tackle this and kind of break down the project into something that we can consume but at the same time the business can understand what we're doing and that we have kind of solid guidelines and deliverables and timelines and things like that the problem with those types of discussions is when you kind of get that in your mind if the person talking talks for a while you might have a list of bullet points or in your mind you're building this list but you didn't write it down so when they open up the conversation you rapid fire all these comments out and not only did you just kill the conversation but the other person you you just flooded is like crap okay what all did you say and then you got a peace meal so the first suggestion or first point I would like to make is when you are speaking or when you're in a meeting and you have multiple talking points or comments on someone's talking points write them down make a list but when they stop and open up the conversation for discussion don't hit them with every single bullet point at once ask the first one pause wait for them to respond then ask the next one or if you get other uh responses or comments just kind of make a list if you don't get through it all within your meeting that's okay that's what email SL Communications are for shoot them a little Sideburn and say hey I still had some questions on this if you have time can we talk about them or can you answer them here so that's just one way to Foster more communication and better communication so you're not making those statements and kind of shutting things down the second thing is to kind of keep the conversation going or keep the momentum going of enthusiasm so like with those young developers you sometimes can get into a situation where as a manager or as a senior lead you're busy you're putting out fires you're in lots of meetings all day and you can get overwhelmed you can get kind of burned out it's like my time is very valuable I've got a lot to do what do you need and so sometimes you can come across a little brus and you kind of shut them down or you don't pay enough attention to so this kind of getes back to our Focus uh Habit but a little bit here is when someone asks you a question or they're like hey I want I have an idea I know we're under a deadline or they may just be like hey can we try to do this or hey I'm trying to figure this out and going this direction do you think that's a good idea now a little bit from the developers perspective that's not a good opener because that's a yes or no question so you could immediately turn around and say no you need to be focused on this and and you essentially shut them down but in a way that comment right there not only shuts them down but could potentially stop their enthusiasm it could basically mean oh I'm going to clim up I'm not going to communicate I'm not going to contribute anymore because either a my manager doesn't think that my opinion matters or B I'm wasting people's time or people think I'm wasting time you don't want that as a leader or as a manager what you want to do is you want to Foster that so yes if you're under a deadline say hey that actually sounds interesting but right now can you focus on this and let's Circle back around to that maybe on the next team collab or maybe we can schedule a meting you can do a little presentation on this work it out to where you can kind of get more information at a different time if now is not the best time so I know I've talked a little bit about a lot but I've given two solid points let me pass that back over to you rob first off I want to I guess I'll start with the opening conversation I think that is the first part you talked about is very key is I think we get into stuff and and I was laughing because Michael has and I have worked together for years and he has seen me get into get it done mode where it's just like Bam Bam Bam like do this do this bullet point bullet point bullet point I don't have time to do anything but get this stuff done and he he does the same thing so he can relate to that but that also shuts down conversation and it's an interesting challenge for us because that's actually part of our goal is to shut down conversations in those situations we're like it's basically I got crap to do I don't have time to have a discussion we need to like we do know we have a task to do so let's get the task done and move on and there probably is value there is value that but let's not do that in conversations if you're in a situation like that then push that from a meeting to an email or something like that if that is literally where you're at then the best way to do it is email and so try not to you know try to avoid the meeting where we're going to quote discuss this if you're not going to discuss it say here's what my thoughts are or here's what I think I need to do correct me if I'm wrong now there's a good example right there the opening up the qu of the discussion if you say and I did a slide I'll say does that make any sense or correct me if I'm wrong or is everybody okay all of those are yes no essentially yes no answers they do not draw people out and particularly if you've got a room full of people if you've got even three or four people in there and you say okay does anybody have anything to add or anything like that it doesn't really it leaves it open for them to essentially just be quiet to not step forward now if it's a one-on-one conversation then those things work a little bit better because you're like okay well what do you think or something along those lines but with a crowd um you want to you want to say like call somebody out maybe be like hey Michael what do you think about this or is that the approach that you would take things like that that draws them out and while it's still a yes or a no is like sometimes you want to like and this is where we get into the challenge but it seem like maybe change that from that yes no to things like how would you Improvement improve this or what would you do to make that better or call out a piece that's questionable which is always I think a challenge that that we have I know I do it where there's I'll talk about a solution and there'll be a piece in there that I'm proposing but I'm not as comfortable with those kinds of things we like okay and we do this a lot we have portions of a solution that are just they're basically set in stone we know what we're going to it's done it a thousand times it's really not up for discussion but then there's other pieces that are up for discussion and then those are the kind of s where maybe you'll say like with the customer say okay this is the solution I'm proposing let's walk through what that would look like for your daily work or something like that is turn it into something that is a conversation the easiest way is always to have somebody say hey can you state back to me what I just so how do you see that can you tell me what I just told you sometimes that's a little bit ponderous to do but if you can walk through the solution with them or something along those lines then it doesn't feel like it's putting so much on that other person it's something where it's like okay let's as a team walk through this this challenge or this problem now I do want to like s side step just a little bit from that that Mentor kind of relationship and stuff like that and this is if you're maybe on the other side uh if you're a you know you're a junior developer and you have a mentor if you're a if you've got a manager that you know doesn't uh that you you're not comfortable having conversation with because you feel like they State too much what's going on and this is also for something if you are that Mentor manager that too often you just like State your opinion and there's no discussion I want to talk about my just briefly my uh relationship with with what is probably my primary Mentor over the last 10 years or so we have whenever we have doc talked about software development and he's got 20 more years of experience than I do basically and in very different environments one of the things that we agree to disagree basically is that he loves waterfall he thinks that waterfall is the only way to do software because of the way he does it and I am a firm believer in agile because of the way I do it but and we've had a lot of discussions we've had a lot of you would even say arguments and disagreements about this over the years and we have butted heads and stuff like that but to me and I think probably to him but definitely to me there is a ton that I have learned in having those conversations those difficult conversations that those arguments and those debates basically and they sometimes get a little bit heated I guess not too much but I mean they're like we very much have strong opinions where we're at but they've been very educational because even though I will hear listen to him you know talk for 15 minutes about like a project and how it worked and how it all went through and I will right away come back with that laundry list like Michael has of like bullet point bullet point bullet point we'll go back and forth on those that story that he gives me those examples he gives me are all things for me to like put in the back of my mind I'm like okay this is where that works this is where maybe my Approach is not the best approach and those are things that are going to make us better developers is when we're hearing that there and this is like that outside of the box or a different perspective is looking at it and saying you know what I have always done this kind of a project or had this kind of approach but there are other approaches out there there are things that are very very different that are still 100% valid and that is going to be very helpful to me when I get pushed into something or or I accept a project and suddenly it's not the standard project I'm used to for example then I can lean on the experience of other people and some of their input in those kinds of situations so don't be afraid of of some debate don't be afraid of pushing back regardless of where you are in the situation because questioning those things even if it is the things that are the the unquestionable stuff yes sometimes it is frustrating to us that somebody's questioning something that we're like that's a given it's like the sky blue let's not discuss let's not debate the sky blue but it is worth us to find the time to have those debates occasionally to say is the sky actually blue let's go out and look let's make sure the sky is still blue because particularly in our world we will get into stuff we will get into technology we'll get into approaches and all this stuff and it will change and that is part of like that's part of what I talk to customers about all the time and they will say this is the way we've always done it and even I will say this is the way I've always done it but when I say that I'm usually going to go back and say okay well is there a better way is there a different way is this still the best way and when you do those kinds of things when you ask those open-ended questions that are like and think about it it's and that's going to be as we get into the challenge it's like try to avoid binary questions whether it's a yes no or okay or not okay or something like that or even worse a very simple answer and a very complex answer it's like don't make people choose because they're almost always going to say the simple answer uh thoughts before we throw to the we jump to the challenge the only other thing I'll throw out within uh the podcast itself is kind of read the room don't force your openness I if everyone's kind of shut down everyone's quiet you can maybe try to go with an icebreaker to get things going but if for instance you're dealing with a very tough conversation and people start shutting down because their feelings are getting hurt or people are getting upset that's okay in some situations to let those conversations kind of slow down maybe end that conversation take a pause come back maybe one-on-one with individuals or do it at another time when people refresh have time to C calm down I have been in heated discussions before over this uh you know this technology versus this technology it's like why is it you know like you said with the waterfall and at a certain point you have to check yourself and say oh wait I'm D you know basically we're we're button heads to the point that the conversation is becoming an argument so avoid that take a pause take a break and then just again kind of read the room and keep fostering those open conversations don't shut things down one of the ways we don't shut things down is we ask for feedback and yes I haven't given you the challenge yet but I will but after this make sure if you have any suggestions recommendations comments in general shoot us an email at info developer.com or check us out on developer.com put a you know fill something out in the contact form uh we're also on Facebook we're on X we're out there in various places leave us a comment or feedback on YouTube the developer n Channel we would love to hear from you we would love to find ways to further this discussion and the ways to build better developers now your challenge probably sort of figure out where we're going to go with this what I want you to do for the next seven days is at the end of a day or even better yet probably at the end of a meeting preferably each meeting is spend a little time just like a couple minutes reviewing where you made statements or where you tried to Foster discussion now first if you didn't Foster discussion at any point I challenge you the next conversation you have the next meeting you have to Foster discussion try to just try it now assuming that you do at some point that you went into a meeting hoping to get something out of the other people that were in that meeting review some of the statements you made and just you know now stepping back a little bit honestly ask yourself was the statement I made or was the question we'll call The End quotes the question that I asked actually a question that Fosters discussion or was it something was basically it was either a yes no question which didn't really doesn't really Foster discussion or was it something where it was bad to choices because it's either very very simple or very very complex and nobody if somebody can spend two seconds versus spending 10 minutes they're almost always going to choose the two seconds so do that this next week is every time next seven days try that out and then let's see how that works as far as fostering discussion now we may have to have a future one if discussion gets too far how do we arain it back in but let's start with fostering discussion first and then we'll figure out how to her the cats of the discussions gone bad as we say that being said we are going to continue this this discussion in the next episode we're going to continue moving on through all of these things getting close into this season we sort of thought of we're not really sure what the next season's going to be so we are more than happy to get feedback from you that being said go out there and have yourself a great day a great week and we will talk to you next time bonus material I'll go first before I like forget this one this one actually came out of the rebooted dignation Uh Kevin Rose one of the guys there who loves playing with technology stuff like that had an awesome chat GPT hack that he had talked about and basically what he did is he was able to load because now in this version I guess you can load PDFs you can load books into it so he load loaded uh I think it was the difficult conversations or never split the difference or maybe a couple of those kinds of books into chat GPT and then he actually he was his hack was he was trying to get a refund for some products that he forgotten to cancel and so he asked the AI he said using this you know how would this book or this author recommend that I approach this problem and it's really interesting because it is it is a leverage of AI but it's perfect for this kind of stuff for these conversations that we have particularly in emails so it's things like that where you could you could say using you know how would soand so that wrote this book recommend that I write this email to cover this topic and those sort of things well obviously it's AI it may give you you know 10 fingers on one hand but it's going to I think give you some key points and it's where we can leverage a lot we there's a lot out there whether it's AI uh whether it's things like it could just be as simple as throw something into like your favorite search engine and say What's the best way to approach this what's the best way to open up a conversation you will find the books you will find podcasts you will find uh boot camps you'll find o all sorts of stuff out there so I think that's the bonus is that you don't have to do this in a vacuum there are a lot of ways for us to reach out to others and experts and things like that to handle this bonus from you so funny thing you mentioned that because I've seen the commercials where and this reminds me of the Tim Ferris virtual assistant conversation where the assistants were uh itting their ego um basically they they were uh passive aggressing they're aggressive uh so if you have like a difficult conversation or you just don't know if your conversations maybe are too strong that the communications you're sending out AI is a good tool for that throw it in Ai and say here uh reward this email or uh you know how does this uh statement sound and sometimes just getting it to rewrite it in another way makes you think oh that first way was a little too strong maybe I need to do it another way the only other thing I kind of want to throw out is you mentioned um shooting your bullet points through email or opening the convers through email that is a perfect medium for this kind of communication or for this kind of conversation because if you do it with chat or text messaging that is kind of like hey I want an instant response sometimes for this type of conversation you want to have time for the other person to think a little bit so when you send bullet points shoot them through an email and walk away if you don't hear from them in a few days then follow up ping them a little bit and then just kind of make sure you keep the conversation going don't just you know send and forget but in the same token don't send and um uh like over u h what's the right uh over agitate the person no over uh you know don't bother them continuously I'm losing the analogy for the word don't poke the bear too many times um but yeah so so when you are dealing with the conversations and dealing with this medium use the right tool use the right conversation method to keep the conversation going when you're out of those meetings you know one cool trick that a lot of businesses have been doing is one-on-one meetings with their teams because sometimes individuals do not like to talk in front of groups so having that one-on-one having that safe space can sometimes Foster more conversations than you would in an open meeting I would just add to that that sometimes um this is probably a bit of advanced bonus material sometimes a proxy helps uh one of the things that I have found that was a benefit I've recently added a um a PM operations manager into the RB Consulting world and the project manager has helped me separate because I'm like in the RB world I am the boss plus a lead developer plus other things that sometimes can make it very difficult for the other developers to say stuff now we we have spent enough time that they've gotten pretty good about that they question stuff they know that sometimes I don't have the right level of caffeine and they'll ask stuff but there are other things particularly when it comes to like how do you feel about the company and how things are going and stuff like that that having that proxy having like in this case a project manager to be able to lead some of those meetings to to do some of that gives him even if I'm in the meeting it gives the employees more of a a forum that they feel like and it it also allows me to um to not like jump in to not drive it and then to feel like okay there's no conversation you know left that all the oxygen has left the room and so sometimes there's something like that if you can do that then sometimes it is helpful to have somebody else as part of that conversation so you're not driving it quite so much and I think that's going to be the bonus um you know the next time around I'm going to have to talk about that one uh and I'm going to make a little note to myself because that's a nice little one for the next time we come which we are going to jump right into in a little bit but for you guys it's going to take a day or two unless you're doing this far enough in the future then it's like boom right away you're going to be right into the next episode that's like the good and the bad part of of podcast and the fact that there's history to them I will let you guys get back to your day as always we appreciate your time we appreciate you looking at our you know having to suffer through looking at our ugly mugs for the last 30 minutes plus but our ugly mugs are not going to improve they will be here next episode and we will dive right into it we get there so have yourself a great day and we will talk to you next time [Music]
Transcript Segments
[Music]
that's we are now
recording and so let's see we're think
like leadership fostering discussions
difficult and difficult conversations
leadership
stuff I think that's a
good uh difficult I think you rewarded
it under because you had chat GPT hacks
difficult and then conversations and
confident communication habits was what
you put oh I did notice I did note that
because that was just something I stole
from somebody heard from somebody else
that was actually pretty cool so I think
I'll do that as like a
bonus for one of
these we pick that up after so just
remind me or hopefully I'll remember
that I'll put like little Aster
there uh let's do fostering discussions
first yeah because my idea around this
one
was instead of those yes and no
questions or like how to take like no we
aren't going to do that and flip it
around to well how would you do that and
then maybe now's not the best time or
hey why don't you take a look at that
for you know somehow spin it so it's a
more positive conversation than just uh
shutting it down yeah y exactly it's
like and which we all have a tendency to
do I also have a tendency to lose my
zoom window there we go don't forget to
turn off your notifications like I was
about to I just got dinged oh I probably
should because I'm sure I'll get some
level of pinging and I'll get pinging on
my other thing but we'll see where there
we go
Focus do not
disturb one hour there we go hopefully
so all right we are on the clock now for
my do not disturb plus I have a hard
stop so we'll have to get cranking so
back to here and we'll do our little
three
two well hello and welcome back We are
continuing our season of building better
habits we are building better developers
we're developing our podcast funny
enough I noted the other day that now if
you search for develop andur there's
actually dentalpreneur shows up more
often than develop andur but building
better developers has apparently become
our primary name that's an SEO issue
that we're going to work with at some
point we'll come back and talk about
such things but not today today we're
going to talk about fostering
discussions before we do all that though
we got to introduce ourselves or at
least I'll introduce myself and let
Michael introduce himself myself is Rob
brev I happen to be one of the founders
of develop and or building better
developers also a founder of RB
Consulting where we are what is known as
Boutique Consulting we help people
Wrangle technology so when you have that
technology sprawl when you have the wild
west and your cattle are all over your 4
billion acres of land we help get all
that stuff together through
simplification automation integration we
find ways to and even Innovation we find
ways for you guys to go out there take
the technology that you have or the
technology that's out there that may be
best suited for your unique situation
and we help you craft that recipes for
success that's specific to your company
to your organization whether it is
through software and tools or even
building your team and your road map
things of that nature since we're in the
building better habits The Habit that
has been I think
like in feedback that has been the most
for me recently is uh it's a new year
we're solidly into a new year now and
the one that is really like stuck and
I've really been happy that I went to is
the uh you know find your joy find your
happiness kind of thing my 15 minutes a
day basically of doing something fun and
I combine it with doing something
productive it actually sort of combines
back when we talked about uh the one
that was about building your skills from
15 minutes a day throughout the days
just do something that improves your
skills and it is great that I have these
I guess it's also a little bit of a
weakness I have a lot of projects out
there that I've started over the years
and they're in varying states of of
completeness or just barely started but
in doing that I've got a lot of
different areas that like playgrounds
that I can play with technology I can
work on a certain skills that I can go
back actually I'm doing refactoring on
some of these and some of these these
are all these little like pet projects
and uh Toys effectively of projects that
I've got that yes they have value but
they are near and dear to me because
they solve problems for me this is me in
some cases automating or creating a
solution for a problem that I had I
really recommend that is like find
something like that that you can do it's
amazing how much that will recharge your
uh your day basically as you step into
it good thing bad thing very bad Natalie
got the flu this last week so she was
down for like a solid four or five days
and that's just miserable and it was
like now I guess there's a good one of
the good things has allowed me to like
baby her a little bit because it was
like I could go you know make tea for
her and all that kind of good stuff that
you have to do when somebody's sick the
other good thing that came out of it is
that there was a night that otherwise we
probably would have gone out on like a
date night and done a bunch of stuff but
she was sick in bed and I basically just
got to sit around and I caught up on
work which you guys may say like that
doesn't doesn't sound like fun but if
you're like me and you're like I
sometimes need to catch up on work that
actually is a very good thing somebody
who does not need to catch up on work
but does need to catch up on his
introductions is Michael so go right
ahead hey everyone my name is Michael
milash I'm one of the co-founders of
building better developers also known as
develop preneur I'm also the founder of
Invision QA where we help businesses uh
clinicians analyze their software look
at what their tools are and help them
improve their processes through
technology we can build you applications
we can help you find better applications
and we can help you even integrate what
you have in a more productive more
automated
way let's see habits so I'm actually
going to start with the good and bad so
the good for me uh was the fact that my
wife went to see her sister for about 10
days so I was able to really get caught
up on a lot of stuff so I actually was
able to do a lot of fun stuff that I
like to do but in the same token uh I
was able to really catch up on a lot of
work elim which kind of leads to the
habits uh but the bad thing was for 10
days I had to deal with all the animals
we had in the house and the fact that we
dropped to below 10° which here that you
know for some of you that may not be a
problem but when you have exposed pipes
that can be a problem so I've been
dripping water for almost 10 days
straight and I have it looks like one of
those uh you know hole in the roof
places I've got buckets of water
everywhere thankfully we're warming up
and those can go
away uh so let me get to the habits so
like Rob mentioned you know it's a new
year we're kind of getting in further
into the year and kind of getting into
the things that I like to do so but what
I've been focusing on is kind of the
anti- habits eliminating the things that
just were eating up my time mind LLY so
while my wife was gone for 10 days I
literally watched two football games and
turned the TV off for the entire 10 days
uh I take that back I did watch one
episode of Fallout I've almost cut up on
the series I got so busy I couldn't
watch it with that being said though I
was able to double down and focus on all
my projects really get caught up really
move things forward and made a lot of
progress so I moved my dial on what I
wanted to accomplish further and I feel
more productive more energized where
where things are going and I did that
through things like working on
automating my tasks I worked on that
through lists like I listed out all the
things I do in a day and then I looked I
was like wait I can automat automate
that finally because we have built
enough functionality into some of these
systems that we can automate it we don't
have to be the one pushing the button so
that's been my week and I'm very excited
about the conversation we're about to
have today
and the conversation we're about to have
today is about difficult conver actually
it's about fostering
conversations and this is something I
think we struggle with a lot in the
developer World U I've been in a lot and
I I may be
overstating this but I have been in a
lot of standups and design and
architecture meetings and stuff like
that over the years and one of the
things that I've seen on a regular basis
and that I have had people complain
about about various people including
myself is that as developers we have the
we have a tendency sometimes to just
State stuff and sometimes that's seen as
I don't know obstinate or arrogant or
something like that and people are like
hey who are they to to state that and
that's that's one issue but I think the
bigger issue and this is as we become
developers as we become better
developers is not so much that we are
seen as a jerk or something like that or
arrogant in doing it but it's that it
shuts down conversation because when
we're in a design meeting of some sort
when we are pitching ideas the whole
idea is that we if we're pitching ideas
is that we need
feedback just like for example every
episode that we do one of the things you
will realize that we ask for feedback we
ask for you to send us an email and that
is because we know that we are better
when we have other people feeding what
it is that we want to do they're they're
feeding these these ideas into us so
that now our ideas can blend with these
other ideas and eventually you get
something that is a community effort in
some extent it is the idea of if you go
back to you can look at like the bizaar
and and stuff like that and that's not
that's B AZ not b i z but the idea of um
the wisdom of crowds and some of those
kinds of things and it's not necessarily
that that stuff I'm not going to go into
those things as much but it's the idea
that like another set of eyes another
perspective is almost always going to
help us out even if it's a
completely distorted perspective the
fact that it's out there is something
for us to know particularly as
developers because we have we have a
tendency to get into like that developer
Focus particularly with our applications
where it's like we're building it to do
this and this is how it's got to be done
but that sometimes shuts out the idea of
a customer that does something
completely different from how we do it
their process is not the same process
that we have as we are building the
software that's why it's very valuable
to talk to your customers to if you can
ride shotgun with them like understand
what a day in their life is like when
they're using either the application
you're going to build or that you've
built or the applications that you're
recommending to them and so what we want
to do is we want to find ways when we're
in these discussions whether it's with a
customer or it's with our team or
whoever it's with that we Foster
feedback that we Foster a way to
actually have a conversation as opposed
to just stating something and moving on
and now if you feel like if you feel you
convicted in all this join the club this
is something that's like it is something
that I I think that we do that people in
our positions do and so it's just
something we need to be uh in about and
cognizant of how we state things and how
we do things and it is a habit that we
need to build to Foster that discussion
now if you go to any of the lots and
lots of people that are out there that
will tell you how to uh build better
conversations basically they will tell
you how to have difficult conversations
how to negotiate and things like
that there are and there are excellent
books out there so I'm going to
summarize some of this stuff but one of
the things I think and this is going to
get into our challenge but it's
basically one of the things we can do is
we can try to be more observant about
our language about things like saying
this is how we need to do this whatever
that is tends to sort of shut down
conversation because you're basic
especially if you are uh the lead
developer or an architect or something
like that now they're hopefully you're
in EN environment where people will
question you and say well why do you
have to do that but a lot of times
that's not the case particularly when
you deal with uh entrylevel junior
developers and stuff like that on your
team that is one of the struggles that
I've had quite a bit is making sure when
I'm bringing in and Training Up
developers and that so I have a very
Junior developer one that understand
that feels like there's a mentor
relationship but also like having them
question things and bring their ideas in
and discuss their ideas because even if
their idea is wild crazy out there on
the left field kind of thing it's still
important for us to have that discussion
and talk about why is that out in left
field why is that not a mainstream idea
and also in doing so is not to say that
it's bad to have something that's way
out there because some of the best ideas
some of the best Innovation comes from
out there nowhere close to where we're
thinking about completely outside of the
box kinds of ideas and
discussions so before I give you like
some little magic things to do I'm G to
throw this over to Michael let him give
his his start on it and we'll get going
on this sure thanks Rob so the the funny
thing about this one we can go many
different ways within this discussion
alone the one I'd kind of like to focus
on a little bit is opening up the
conversation so like you said you have
this kind of mentoring relationship
going with a younger developer or an
early developer in their career and I
I've seen this many times over the years
many different companies many different
teams and regardless of the situation
regardless of the Dynamics of the team
almost every single situation has very
similar kind of Dynamics when it comes
to speaking when it comes to
conversations meetings um and the
relationships within the team some are
really good but over time these can
erode because of deadlines because
you're under pressure to get things done
and what typically happens is you're
because you're under the deadlines
because you're heads down coding because
you got to get things done a lot of
times we try to shrink that conversation
we try to shrink our meeting times how
much we interact with people we almost
become antisocial because it's like here
here's my pitch I got to go back to work
it's like we try to get out of these
conversations as fast as we can so we
get into a lot of yes or no type
conversations or statements we make and
that really doesn't get the conversation
going it's like here I said this like
how's your day that's an opener it's
like you know um how's the weather well
okay it could be raining it could be hot
it could be cold it's kind of an opener
but not really that open-ended it's like
you kind of get an answer and sometimes
that kind of kills the
conversation where I'm going with this
is there are times s when I'm in
meetings and I do this as well in fact I
got myself doing this the other day
where we're discussing a new project
we're starting on and we're as a team
walking through our conversations of our
concerns about deadlines about how we
want to tackle this and kind of break
down the project into something that we
can consume but at the same time the
business can understand what we're doing
and that we have kind of solid
guidelines and deliverables and
timelines and things like that the
problem with those types of discussions
is when you kind of get that in your
mind if the person talking talks for a
while you might have a list of bullet
points or in your mind you're building
this list but you didn't write it down
so when they open up the conversation
you rapid fire all these comments out
and not only did you just kill the
conversation but the other person
you you just flooded is like crap okay
what all did you say and then you got a
peace meal so the first suggestion or
first point I would like to make is when
you are speaking or when you're in a
meeting and you have multiple talking
points or comments on someone's talking
points write them down make a list but
when they stop and open up the
conversation for discussion don't hit
them with every single bullet point at
once ask the first one pause wait for
them to respond then ask the next one or
if you get other uh responses or
comments just kind of make a list if you
don't get through it all within your
meeting that's okay that's what email SL
Communications are for shoot them a
little Sideburn and say hey I still had
some questions on this if you have time
can we talk about them or can you answer
them here so that's just one way to
Foster more communication and better
communication so you're not making those
statements and kind of shutting things
down
the second thing is to kind of keep the
conversation going or keep the momentum
going of enthusiasm so like with those
young developers you sometimes can get
into a situation where as a manager or
as a senior lead you're busy you're
putting out fires you're in lots of
meetings all day and you can get
overwhelmed you can get kind of burned
out it's like my time is very valuable
I've got a lot to do what do you need
and so sometimes you can come across a
little brus and you kind of shut them
down or you don't pay enough attention
to so this kind of getes back to our
Focus uh Habit but a little bit here is
when someone asks you a question or
they're like hey I want I have an idea I
know we're under a deadline or they may
just be like hey can we try to do this
or hey I'm trying to figure this out and
going this direction do you think that's
a good idea now
a little bit from the developers
perspective that's not a good opener
because that's a yes or no question so
you could immediately turn around and
say no you need to be focused on this
and and you essentially shut them
down but in a way that comment right
there not only shuts them down but could
potentially stop their enthusiasm it
could basically mean oh I'm going to
clim up I'm not going to communicate I'm
not going to contribute anymore because
either a my manager doesn't think that
my opinion matters or B I'm wasting
people's time or people think I'm
wasting time you don't want that as a
leader or as a manager what you want to
do is you want to Foster that so yes if
you're under a deadline say hey that
actually sounds interesting but right
now can you focus on this and let's
Circle back around to that maybe on the
next team collab or maybe we can
schedule a meting you can do a little
presentation on this work it out to
where you can kind of get more
information at a different time if now
is not the best time so I know I've
talked a little bit about a lot but I've
given two solid points let me pass that
back over to you rob first off I want to
I guess I'll start with the opening
conversation I think that is the first
part you talked about is very key is I
think we get into stuff and and I was
laughing because Michael has and I have
worked together for years and he has
seen me get into get it done mode where
it's just like Bam Bam Bam like do this
do this bullet point bullet point bullet
point I don't have time to do anything
but get this stuff done and he he does
the same thing so he can relate to that
but that also shuts down conversation
and it's an interesting challenge for us
because that's actually part of our goal
is to shut down conversations in those
situations we're like it's basically I
got crap to do I don't have time to have
a discussion we need to like we do know
we have a task to do so let's get the
task done and move on and there probably
is value there is value that but let's
not do that in conversations if you're
in a situation like that then push that
from a meeting to an email or something
like that if that is literally where
you're at then the best way to do it is
email and so try not to you know try to
avoid the meeting where we're going to
quote discuss this if you're not going
to discuss it say here's what my
thoughts are or here's what I think I
need to do correct me if I'm
wrong now there's a good example right
there the opening up the qu of the
discussion if you say and I did a slide
I'll say does that make any sense or
correct me if I'm wrong or is everybody
okay all of those are yes no essentially
yes no answers they do not draw people
out and particularly if you've got a
room full of people if you've got even
three or four people in there and you
say okay does anybody have anything to
add or anything like that it doesn't
really it leaves it open for them to
essentially just be quiet to not step
forward now if it's a one-on-one
conversation then those things work a
little bit better because you're like
okay well what do you think or something
along those lines but with a
crowd
um you want to you want to say like call
somebody out maybe be like hey Michael
what do you think about this or is that
the approach that you would take things
like that that draws them out and while
it's still a yes or a no is like
sometimes you want to like and this is
where we get into the challenge but it
seem like maybe change that from that
yes no to things like how would you
Improvement improve this or what would
you do to make that better
or call out a piece that's questionable
which is always I think a challenge that
that we have I know I do it where
there's I'll talk about a solution and
there'll be a piece in there that I'm
proposing but I'm not as comfortable
with those kinds of things we like okay
and we do this a lot we have portions of
a solution that are just they're
basically set in stone we know what
we're going to it's done it a thousand
times it's really not up for discussion
but then there's other pieces that are
up for
discussion and then those are the kind
of s where maybe you'll say like with
the customer say okay this is the
solution I'm proposing let's walk
through what that would look like for
your daily work or something like that
is turn it into something that is a
conversation the easiest way is always
to have somebody say hey can you state
back to me what I just so how do you see
that can you tell me what I just told
you sometimes that's a little bit
ponderous to do but if you can walk
through the solution with them or
something along those lines then it
doesn't feel like it's putting so much
on that other person it's something
where it's like okay let's as a team
walk through this this challenge or this
problem now I do want to like s side
step just a little bit from that that
Mentor kind of relationship and stuff
like that and this is if you're maybe on
the other side uh if you're a you know
you're a junior developer and you have a
mentor if you're a if you've got a
manager that you know
doesn't uh that you you're not
comfortable having conversation with
because you feel like they State too
much what's going on and this is also
for something if you are that Mentor
manager that too often you just like
State your opinion and there's no
discussion
I want to talk about my just briefly my
uh relationship with with what is
probably my primary Mentor over the last
10 years or so we have whenever we have
doc talked about software development
and he's got 20 more years of experience
than I do basically and in very
different environments one of the things
that we agree to disagree basically is
that he loves waterfall he thinks that
waterfall is the only way to do software
because of the way he does it and I am a
firm believer in agile because of the
way I do it but and we've had a lot of
discussions we've had a lot of you would
even say arguments and disagreements
about this over the years and we have
butted heads and stuff like that but to
me and I think probably to him but
definitely to me there is a ton that I
have learned in having those
conversations those difficult
conversations that those arguments and
those debates basically and they
sometimes get a little bit heated I
guess not too much but I mean they're
like we very much have strong opinions
where we're at but they've been very
educational because even though I will
hear listen to him you know talk for 15
minutes about like a project and how it
worked and how it all went through and I
will right away come back with that
laundry list like Michael has of like
bullet point bullet point bullet point
we'll go back and forth on
those that story that he gives me those
examples he gives me are all things for
me to like put in the back of my mind
I'm like okay this is where that works
this is where maybe my Approach is not
the best approach and those are things
that are going to make us better
developers is when we're hearing that
there and this is like that outside of
the box or a different perspective is
looking at it and saying you know what I
have always done this kind of a project
or had this kind of approach but there
are other approaches out there there are
things that are very very different that
are still 100% valid and that is going
to be very helpful to me when I get
pushed into something or or I accept a
project and suddenly it's not the
standard project I'm used to for example
then I can lean on the experience of
other people and some of their input in
those kinds of situations so don't be
afraid of of some debate don't be afraid
of pushing back regardless of where you
are in the situation because questioning
those things even if it is the things
that are the the unquestionable stuff
yes sometimes it is frustrating to us
that somebody's questioning something
that we're like that's a given it's like
the sky blue let's not discuss let's not
debate the sky blue but it is worth us
to find the time to have those debates
occasionally to say is the sky actually
blue let's go out and look let's make
sure the sky is still blue because
particularly in our world we will get
into stuff we will get into technology
we'll get into approaches and all this
stuff and it will change and that is
part of like that's part of what I talk
to customers about all the time and they
will say this is the way we've always
done it
and even I will say this is the way I've
always done it but when I say that I'm
usually going to go back and say okay
well is there a better way is there a
different way is this still the best way
and when you do those kinds of things
when you ask those open-ended questions
that are like and think about it it's
and that's going to be as we get into
the challenge it's like try to avoid
binary questions whether it's a yes no
or okay or not okay or something like
that or even worse a very simple answer
and a very complex answer it's like
don't make people choose because they're
almost always going to say the simple
answer uh thoughts before we throw to
the we jump to the
challenge the only other thing I'll
throw out within uh the podcast itself
is kind of read the room don't force
your openness I if everyone's kind of
shut down everyone's quiet you can maybe
try to go with an icebreaker to get
things going but if for instance you're
dealing with a very tough
conversation and people start shutting
down because their feelings are getting
hurt or people are getting upset that's
okay in some situations to let those
conversations kind of slow down maybe
end that conversation take a pause come
back maybe one-on-one with individuals
or do it at another time when people
refresh have time to C calm down I have
been in heated discussions before over
this uh you know this technology versus
this technology it's like why is it you
know like you said with the waterfall
and at a certain point you have to check
yourself and say oh wait I'm D you know
basically we're we're button heads to
the point that the conversation is
becoming an argument so avoid that take
a pause take a break and then just again
kind of read the room and keep fostering
those open conversations don't shut
things
down one of the ways we don't shut
things down is we ask for feedback and
yes I haven't given you the challenge
yet but I will but after this make sure
if you have any suggestions
recommendations comments in general
shoot us an email at info developer.com
or check us out on developer.com put a
you know fill something out in the
contact form uh we're also on Facebook
we're on X we're out there in various
places leave us a comment or feedback on
YouTube the developer n Channel we would
love to hear from you we would love to
find ways to further this discussion and
the ways to build better developers now
your
challenge probably sort of figure out
where we're going to go with this what I
want you to do for the next seven days
is at the end of a day or even better
yet probably at the end of a meeting
preferably each meeting is spend a
little time just like a couple minutes
reviewing where you made statements or
where you tried to Foster discussion now
first if you didn't Foster discussion at
any point I challenge you the next
conversation you have the next meeting
you have to Foster discussion try to
just try it now assuming that you do at
some point that you went into a meeting
hoping to get something out of the other
people that were in that meeting review
some of the statements you made and just
you know now stepping back a little bit
honestly ask yourself was the statement
I made or was the question we'll call
The End quotes the question that I
asked actually a question that Fosters
discussion or was it something was
basically it was either a yes no
question which didn't really doesn't
really Foster discussion or was it
something where it was bad to choices
because it's either very very simple or
very very complex and nobody if somebody
can spend two seconds versus spending 10
minutes they're almost always going to
choose the two seconds so do that this
next week is every time next seven days
try that out and then let's see how that
works as far as fostering discussion now
we may have to have a future one if
discussion gets too far how do we arain
it back in but let's start with
fostering discussion first and then
we'll figure out how to her the cats of
the discussions gone bad as we say that
being said we are going to continue this
this discussion in the next episode
we're going to continue moving on
through all of these things getting
close into this season we sort of
thought of we're not really sure what
the next season's going to be so we are
more than happy to get feedback from you
that being said go out there and have
yourself a great day a great week and we
will talk to you next
time bonus material I'll go first before
I like forget this one this one actually
came out of the rebooted dignation Uh
Kevin Rose one of the guys there who
loves playing with technology stuff like
that had an awesome chat GPT hack that
he had talked about and basically what
he did is he was able to load because
now in this version I guess you can load
PDFs you can load books into it so he
load loaded uh I think it was the
difficult conversations or never split
the difference or maybe a couple of
those kinds of books into chat GPT and
then he actually he was his hack was he
was trying to get a refund for some
products that he forgotten to cancel and
so he asked the AI he said using this
you know how would this book or this
author recommend that I approach this
problem and it's really interesting
because it is it is a leverage of AI but
it's perfect for this kind of stuff for
these conversations that we have
particularly in emails so it's things
like that where you could you could say
using you know how would soand so that
wrote this book recommend that I write
this email to cover this topic and those
sort of things well obviously it's AI it
may give you you know 10 fingers on one
hand but it's going to I think give you
some key points and it's where we can
leverage a lot we there's a lot out
there whether it's AI uh whether it's
things like it could just be as simple
as throw something into like your
favorite search engine and say What's
the best way to approach this what's the
best way to open up a conversation you
will find the books you will find
podcasts you will find uh boot camps
you'll find o all sorts of stuff out
there so I think that's the bonus is
that you don't have to do this in a
vacuum there are a lot of ways for us to
reach out to others and experts and
things like that to handle this bonus
from you so funny thing you mentioned
that because I've seen the commercials
where and this reminds me of the Tim
Ferris virtual assistant conversation
where the assistants were uh itting
their
ego um basically they they were uh
passive aggressing they're aggressive uh
so if
you have like a difficult conversation
or
you just don't know if your
conversations maybe are too strong that
the communications you're sending out AI
is a good tool for that throw it in Ai
and say here uh reward this email or uh
you know how does this uh statement
sound and sometimes just getting it to
rewrite it in another way makes you
think oh that first way was a little too
strong maybe I need to do it another way
the only other thing I kind of want to
throw out is you mentioned um shooting
your bullet points through email or
opening the convers through email that
is a perfect medium for this kind of
communication or for this kind of
conversation because if you do it with
chat or text messaging that is kind of
like hey I want an instant response
sometimes for this type of conversation
you want to have time for the other
person to think a little bit so when you
send bullet points shoot them through an
email and walk away if you don't hear
from them in a few days then follow up
ping them a little bit and then just
kind of make sure you keep the
conversation going don't just you know
send and forget but in the same token
don't send and um uh like over u h
what's the right uh over agitate the
person no over uh you know don't bother
them continuously I'm losing the analogy
for the word don't poke the bear too
many
times um but yeah so so when you are
dealing with the conversations and
dealing with this medium use the right
tool use the right conversation method
to keep the conversation going when
you're out of those meetings you know
one cool trick that a lot of businesses
have been doing is one-on-one meetings
with their teams because sometimes
individuals do not like to talk in front
of groups so having that one-on-one
having that safe space can sometimes
Foster more conversations than you would
in an open
meeting I would just add to that that
sometimes um this is probably a bit of
advanced bonus material sometimes a
proxy helps uh one of the things that I
have found that was a benefit I've
recently added a um a PM operations
manager into the RB Consulting world and
the project manager has helped me
separate because I'm like in the RB
world I am the boss plus a lead
developer plus other things that
sometimes can make it very difficult for
the other developers to say stuff now we
we have spent enough time that they've
gotten pretty good about that they
question stuff they know that sometimes
I don't have the right level of caffeine
and they'll ask stuff
but there are other things particularly
when it comes to like how do you feel
about the company and how things are
going and stuff like that that having
that proxy having like in this case a
project manager to be able to lead some
of those meetings to to do some of that
gives him even if I'm in the meeting it
gives the employees more of a a forum
that they feel like and it it also
allows me to um to not like jump in to
not drive it and then to feel like okay
there's no conversation you know left
that all the oxygen has left the room
and so sometimes there's something like
that if you can do that then sometimes
it is helpful to have somebody else as
part of that conversation so you're not
driving it quite so much and I think
that's going to be the bonus um you know
the next time around I'm going to have
to talk about that one uh and I'm going
to make a little note to myself because
that's a nice little one for the next
time we come which we are going to jump
right into in a little bit but for you
guys it's going to take a day or two
unless you're doing this far enough in
the future then it's like boom right
away you're going to be right into the
next episode that's like the good and
the bad part of of podcast and the fact
that there's history to them I will let
you guys get back to your day as always
we appreciate your time we appreciate
you looking at our you know having to
suffer through looking at our ugly mugs
for the last 30 minutes plus but our
ugly mugs are not going to improve they
will be here next episode and we will
dive right into it we get there so have
yourself a great day and we will talk to
you next time
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