Detailed Notes
In Part 2 of our interview with Dusty Gulleson, CEO of eResources, we explore how value-driven project discovery helps teams prioritize what truly matters, align budgets, and build software that delivers real business outcomes.
Dusty breaks down how the 80/20 rule, MoSCoW prioritization, and “golden processes” shape smarter decisions during planning and discovery. He explains why teams must focus on outcomes over features and why budget constraints often create needed clarity. From cutting through data bloat to identifying high-value processes, this conversation highlights why discovery is essential before any development begins.
We also dive into Dusty’s entrepreneurial journey—growing his business without outside capital, making strategic acquisitions, navigating the 2008 crisis, and leading teams with transparency and grit. His insights show how value-driven project discovery extends beyond software and into leadership, relationships, and long-term growth.
🔑 Key Topics in Part 2: • What value-driven project discovery looks like in practice • Using prioritization methods (80/20, MoSCoW) to find real value • Identifying golden processes and removing data bloat • Budget alignment and the “chapter one” mindset • Growing a company without venture capital • Overcoming downturns and cultural challenges • How relationships and empathy drive project success
🎙 Guest: Dusty Gulleson — Founder & CEO, eResources Follow Dusty on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dustygulleson/
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#ValueDrivenProjectDiscovery #SoftwareDevelopment #ProjectPlanning #TechLeadership #BuildingBetterDevelopers #Develpreneur
Transcript Text
Hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of building better foundations. We are the building better developers podcast also the developer podcast. Uh same name and this episode we are continuing our interview with Dusty Gullison and we will start that momentarily but first I need to introduce myself. My name is Rob Broadhead, one of the founders of building better developers developer also the founder of RB consulting where we help you assess your technology build a roadmap moving forward for success. good thing, bad thing. Um, weather is so often a topic, but uh I'm going to go with this anyways. Uh, recently I was in Vegas for a week and the weather was phenomenal. Uh, I left a cold Nashville for a warm Las Vegas. It was great walking around each night. Everything it it went well. Um, the one thing that was bad was we had one day where it just poured and poured and poured and we me it was good that we missed the pouring part of it. We we went out, we saw the Grand Canyon, we came back, we didn't get rained on really while we were out doing all the tours and all that. We came back, we're like, we ended up at a hotel and we just wanted to go across the street to the other hotel. Now, I don't know how often I'm shared, but I'm a I am substantially taller than my wife. And during the rain, there was a place where I was like, "All right, I'm just going to suck it up. I'm going to get a little bit of wet." And so, I ran across like a stream of water going down a regular street. And like this is like flash flood kind of stuff that you see in a a desert. I survived fine and was not terribly well. As I looked back and saw what I had left behind me, I realized that luckily my wife did not follow me because otherwise she probably would have been swept away. It was just that kind of a thing. Uh it took her a while to get to safety, but the good news is is she did and we went on and had a a good old time. Uh somebody else who is probably not likely to be swept away in a a torrent of, you know, 3-in water or something like that is my co-host. Go ahead and introduce yourself. >> Hey everyone, my name is Michael Malashsh. I'm one of the co-founders of Building Better Developers, also known as Developer. I'm also the founder of a software company called Envision QA, where we help businesses build smarter, stronger software with custom development and rock solid testing. Uh, good thing, bad thing. So, thank goodness we're not in rainy season because we have had one to two inches of rain at the farm just running down the driveway. So, we've had our own rivers here, but not this time of year. So, that's the good thing. Um, similar situation here. Uh well, Rob left town. I was stuck in Tennessee. Uh it got really cold. We got down to 21°. Had to wrap everything up. And then uh today, I think we're like over 70 right now. It's beautiful. Getting ready to probably go outside uh have a glass of wine and just enjoy the weather before uh we start getting cold again before the holidays. And now we are going to dive right into our conversation with Dusty and continue right where we left off. Uh hope you guys are ready to take some notes because once again this is a great interview and a couple of good nuggets that get dropped along the way. Here we go back with Dusty. So, it seems like that we talk a lot about the 8020 rule and and getting like, you know, you're going to especially when you're getting into like an MVP or version one of something where you're like, let's get get the things that have the most value. Let's get those done. Let's get those out there so we can start actually benefiting from it and then we can come back and add the other things. Mhm. >> How do you handle the situations where you've got because there are some things that depends on your company and your your business, your line of business, stuff like that, your vertical, but there's there are things that 8020 doesn't cut it. There's like there are certain things that have to be basically, you know, essentially have to be 100%. >> Sure. Sure. I I I think when you first start off, there's going to be 8020. Identifying what that 20% is important. Uh that's why we're very u key on using that Moscow rule because a lot of a lot of our clients have great ideas and they're fantastic but at the end of the day when you do that story what is your honest to god outcome that you want to try to do? Well we just need to process these three processes critical. Okay then those become your musthaves and you pair out what are the the 20%. Um sometimes you know if it's you know one process I need to make sure that this API works and well then that's just one thing you know but usually when you're building an enterprise solution or a website or an app there are a lot of things that um are what what I call data collection bloat where they're collecting a lot of data that it's not even actionable about they want to do it in the future. So we always try to identify where is your data collection bloat first. There's a lot of processes that they want to do because it's going to go into a future plan and so you start pairing that back. So there is generally speaking going to always be a 20% that you can find somewhere. Um and usually uh the easiest place to find it is in the budget. You only have 100 grand, this is what you can get for 100 grand. you only have you know 300 grand this is what you can get for 300 grand. Um so uh usually the budget is the first place that will constrain um your deliverables and then then timeline and then uh you know phase two stuff that you know once you understand the story you go actually that's really not launch necessary. Um, one of the things that people, and I mentioned this earlier, people that are starting out a lot run into, I think, is there's a budget. So, you you do have a budget and they have a a vision of what they want. And it may not it's usually not going to be complete, but they've got some level what they want as a customer, >> but the budget doesn't fit what is really going to be most likely a solution, whether they've they've thought it out enough and you look at you say, "Yeah, that be great and you need it, >> but your budget can't cover it." or vice versa where it's just like they've sort of picked a budget and they say, "Well, I think this is what I can do within the budget." What do you what you say to somebody that's especially if somebody somebody comes to you at your company or something like that that says, "Hey, I'm this is what I need. You know, I need to I need to go get these guys to go spend $1,000." They say they only want to spend $100. Should I just tell them to spend $100 and figure out how to make it work within that or should I push them and say, "This is really where you need to be?" Well, the best way to solve that problem, I find, is talk about the story. Let's not talk about budgets. Let's talk about your story. What do you where do you want to be? What are you trying to do? What are the, you know, characters in the story? And and they map it out and I go, what's the most important part of your story for your company? Right now, it's this. Okay. And then we talk about what we call um golden processes. What are your golden process? the ones that generate revenue for you that are must haves so you can actually sustain and grow. So in this story, what are the things that are actually going to generate revenue for you? And then we identify those. And then I say, okay, you want to do this thing. Maybe you focus on chapter one of this story, which is, you know, we want you to spend $1,000, but let's spend a hundred bucks and get chapter one done and then start building on it. I'm a firm believer in not I I really hate huge budgets. I mean, you have them, but I hate huge chunks. I'd rather solve small chunks, little by little. And you start having that uh flywheel event where, hey, we're successful with $100, so let's do 200 bucks. We're successful with 200 bucks. It's adopted, everyone likes it, and then you're 300 bucks. And the more you do that, um, I think you're going to find a more success in actually the delivery of the solution. But really, at the end of the day, the client has to see the whole trajectory of where they're trying to go and go, "Ah, that makes sense why you want me to spend $1,000, but if I can spend $100 here and it improves my my revenue prospects, then let's do that and then we can do the next part." And so, you break things down. This is why it's so critical to have that discovery to do that Moscow approach um to understand the outcomes and where everyone's going. >> Yeah. It's amazing to me how often I've seen even like huge budget projects where they they bulk at, you know, spending a few thousand, you know, they'll be it'll be six, seven figure projects and they want to like, no, we can't spend a few thousand on a discovery process or anything like that. site. To me, it seems it seems ridiculously, you know, shortsighted to do so that don't have a budget and or are doing their first project and they have no clue where to begin and it's like sticker shock when you try to explain what the cost of some of this stuff will be and they're like, "Well, wait, >> you know, it needs to be cheaper." Those are the hard ones to talk to. I was just in Tampa meeting with a retail company um last week, last Friday and uh sat down with them and they had spent a year and a half struggling with creating this online e-commerce environment and they were trying to do it cheap you know I think Woo Commerce or something but you know they had at bare minimum 15 to 20,000 SKs. I was like well and they want to do all these kind of things and I was like I don't think that's going to work for you. And they're like, 'Well, tell us what we should do. I said, 'First of all, I can't tell you what to do until we actually know what you want to do. You're telling me you just want to sell stuff? Well, everybody does, but have you thought about logistics? Have you thought about integrating, you know, a shipping platform? Have you thought about your inventory in real time? Have you thought about insurance? Have you thought about claims? Have you thought about your ADA compliance on a store online? have you thought about? And so I started laying about all these things cuz they handed me a two-page proposal from from a company that just had like five line items and a price. And I was like, "This is not a proposal. This is a disaster." I said, "You're throwing more good money after something." I said, "Did they give you a discovery docking? Did they give you a road map? Did they give you a development calendar? Did they give you a schedule?" And you know, I'm like, "You're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. what are you doing? And so I I I couldn't agree more with you. A lot of folks just don't understand what it takes. Everyone's looking at the the finish line and not the start line, right? Every's like, "Oh, I'm going to have a a store that's bringing 100 200 grand of, you know, revenue a month." Like, you don't have anything yet. How do you get there? So, understanding the road map and understanding the journey and the story is so critical to these clients. And I remember leaving that that that meeting and they were just shaking their heads and like what should we do? I'm like, "You don't even know what you need to do yet. You need to sit with a partner that's done it for other clients and walk them through it and do the hard work." So they're like, "All right, we're going to put together your budget and we'll be back in Q1." I'm like, "That's a good place to start. Put together a budget. Figure out what you want and for what you want to do." I said, "You need at least a minimum a quart million to half a million budget. start there. If you're not ready to do that, you're not ready to get to the companies that you gave me as examples of what you want to be like. >> So, >> yeah, I love I love I use that example all the time where people have a, you know, someone come in and be a entrepreneur or something like, "Hey, I want to build, you know, eBay for pet supplies and I got a $500 budget or something like that." say, you know, these things where it's like you realize this is like you sometimes the economy is a scale like blow my mind where it's like you really think that if you could build a billion dollar business for hundreds of dollars, there wouldn't be 10 of those already out there at least or more. Oh, which before we go too far down that road, I I'll switch gears a little. >> I was gonna say that that client I was meeting with literally said that this developer wants to build an Amazon for this environment and have me put my skews on. I'm like, that's that's a red flag just to start with. >> That right away is like they they're missing something. So, there is a disconnect there. >> Yeah, they're going to vibe code their way to millions. >> That's right. That's right. There. Boy, that's there's a lot of that out there right now. We'll see where that ends up. Um, I want to switch gears a little bit because one of the things is he's built a a sizable company over hundred uh people, 100 employees without outside capital. And I know that a lot of a lot of times that's that's like a chicken and egg thing that people seem to run into. They're like, "Well, I would love to make a lot of money, but it takes money to make money and I can't get there, so I'm going to have to go." >> And that sometimes that even stops uh developers with great ideas that have got you I've run into plenty that have got great product ideas. are like, "Well, but I got to go I'm going to go deal with venture capital or find an angel investor or something like that or get a big loan or whatever it is so I can actually fund it and I'd like to I think this is where you can you can provide some of your experience and you know for somebody else that's wanting to build without going out and getting all that funding." >> Yeah. So, there's two parts of that. The first part I would tell folks is you can do anything with time and grit. And when we first started, the first five years, it took me five years to get to a million bucks and gross revenue just just it was just myself and then I hired a childhood friend. I grew up in Asia, so I used H1B to get one of my friends over here back in 19 2000. And I remember early on, uh, he would code and I'd sleep on the floor. Then he'd wake me up and I get up and QA and you know put some design documents while he slept on the floor. And we did that for years, you know. Um you know during the day when he was coding I would uh some I would just grind it. I'd pick up the phone and call folks and be like you know I think you need this. was in there days when there's we're competing with like vignette for CMS and a lot of nonprofits and associations didn't have a CMS and so we built our own CMS and that took a lot of work and that got us off the ground that led to one thing after another and you start getting momentum. It's all about momentum. You got to just keep moving and you're going to you're going to struggle. I I there's so many pivot points in our business where I like if that didn't come through. I don't know what we'd have done, but we'd have done something else, right? We'd have figured something else out. And I always tell folks, if I knew what I know now back then, I probably wouldn't have done it because it's such a barrier. But I got to say, in the States, there's so much opportunity with so many businesses you can start, so much you can do, and you don't really need money. You just need the ability to find an opportunity and sell it. I lived on, you know, for a year I lived on uh checks from credit cards. That's how I paid myself. That's how I paid rent. You know, we were, my wife and I were newly married. We lived in a basement, some person's house. We It's the classic story. You just work hard. So, I would say grit. Just do it. If you have a great idea, don't worry about failing. Fail as fast as you can. I mean, I know that's a cliche these days, but it needs a lot. Fail and find a solution, then, you know, put your foot in the door and open that a little wider. The other way we grew about 2015 after we were in business for about 15 years, we grew through acquisitions uh once we had established ourselves and I would say the SBA financing vehicle is an extremely extremely good vehicle and we use that to acquire uh companies over uh five companies in the last 10 years 11 years. We bolt on the company, integrate it, get the revenue up and you know my job switched from actually working in the company to working on the company and we'd find opportunities, bolt them on and create more revenue, pay off the note, do another one. You know, I'm in the middle of looking another opportunity right now because it's there's so much out there and it's the same thing with like house flippers, right? They go out and find some hard money, flip a house. Same kind of notion. There is money out there, but you have to execute in order for that money to work. So, there is risk. You know, I I have a mortgage and some of that stuff is tied to an SBA guarantee. Well, that's fine, but I'm willing to take that risk. Um, so we're looking at 100 plus employees now. And did it work? Yeah. And you can do it. And there are venues for cash out there. You don't have to go to a private equity. I mean, between you and me and the fence board, I don't like private equity folks at all. I mean, they they drive me crazy because they have no interest in your company. And that's why I tell folks, private equity are great as long as you know that they are a tool, but they don't care about you personally and the business and the culture and what you're trying to build. They have one thing in mind. What's their exit? And that's the only thing they care about. And as long as you're on an extra trajectory with them, great. But generally speaking, you're not um you're trying to build something. So I always try to say use like an SBA vehicle. Um you have equity in your house, use that to leverage for a bigger loan. Do those things if you need cash. But at the end of the day, hard work and actually building relationships and your network because people want people to solve problems. There's a zillion problems out there. And you know, I remember when my first big gig came and I was at church and I said, "Oh man, I could do that problem for you. Here's let's meet on Monday. Let's talk about that." And you know, like, "Oh, you have an idea." You know, people want to be understood and they're going to trust people to understand and then deliver on that. You know, our our slogan at E Resources, and we're actually changing our name next year, believe it or not, but our slogan always has been strategy delivered. we won't just consult with you, but we'll actually deliver labor on that strategy and folks really love that. >> So, does that answer your question? >> Oh, yes, very much so. >> So, I got kind of a followup to that. Um, so you went through the whole process, you know, you had these experiences building your company um up to 100 employees. as you were going through this over the years, you know, have you ever, I'm sure you have, most entrepreneurs have, h had kind of that down point where you really while you were trying to build things up, things weren't going right, things were going down, and you it was kind of your worst point where you like almost threw threw it in, you know, threw it away, but how did you overcome that? Yeah, that's that's a great question. There's a number of those spots. Um I've never been quite in the throwing it away unless it got taken away from me um like through like everything fell apart. Um so probably the biggest overcoming story was probably in 2008 when the market went completely sideways. Um I think about 30 to 40% of our clients their cash seized up and so our AR seized up and our our vendors seized up and everything seized up right there's that 2 three month and it took like a year to unwind everything and cash was super my wife and I just moved to Washington state and we just decided to buy a house and then I think every mortgage lender one after another pulled their uh portfolio from us. We get another mortgage ready to sign, pull it another one. So I think we went through six spend uh six mortgage crisis and it took us a year to actually get that place. And that's just in the consumer side. Just think about it on the business side where I had clients that said we can't do this. And you know, I would say the good thing about this, I saw this coming and I pulled out all our lines of credit right before they all got asked. And that was a just watching the macroeconomics of it. I knew something bad was coming down the pipe. And so we were able to not fire anybody, thank God, or lay off anybody because we knew that that would affect them. U we had some attrition and we let that happen. But um we went to our clients that were struggling. We said, "Hey, we're going to work with you. We're your partner first. We're not going to harass you. Let's see how we can work this out together." and those having strong relationships with both your vendors and your clients are super critical in times like that. Um and and and starting from the point of a positive intention of everybody, right? Um there's a lot of clients that ghosted us and I finally got them on the phone. I said, "Listen, you don't have to ghost me. You're safe here. This is we're both in the same boat. We're no worse. You're no better. We're we're going to work this through together." and that helped dramatically uh solve that. Um, yeah, it that was a huge pressure point and I don't think we came out of that. Like I took out a bunch of loans prior to that and I think it wasn't until 2011 that I pulled ourselves out of that situation and it was just like we'll work harder. You can't afford this? Great. We're going to discount this 20% to get you here because we know you need to have this done. And so we just discounted we worked harder. our team, you know, at the end of the day, God bless our team. We have great employees. Our average um employment terms 14 years that people stay with our firm, which you know, we're 26 year old firm and go. Um we just had an employee that had his 25th uh anniversary with us this last week. Wow. >> And we're 26 years, right? So, I uh I would I would say going back to that, it came down to just relationships, maintaining good relationships, great communication. Don't fear the bad thing. I always have a saying as don't fear the monster in your closet when you're a kid and you're scared in your bed and you think something's in the closet. It's a little I said turn on that flashlight, open up that door, have a look in there. Just it's better to know how bad that P&L sheet is, how bad the AR report is, how bad that debt statement is than not to know it. The unknown is the death of you. Knowing is better than unknowing in those situations. So yeah, I would say that 2008 was a huge pivot point. There's other times where things happened, but um I said the other big one probably for us is we did two acquisitions within four months of each other. We I don't recommend it. We bought two separate companies, two separate cultures, and we had a we inherited a senior manager that was just the absolute worst. It probably the worst experience with a coworker in my lifetime. And like the day, you know, the ink was dry on the the acquisition, that person turned completely like destructive. >> They didn't like change. and they basically tried to undermine the whole thing. And I thought we're going to lose the acquisition of value. You know, it was a 2 million plus small, but for a small company at the time, it's a lot. >> Um, and the hardest, you know, the hardest thing I had to do is I was I felt threatened that if I got rid of this person that we'd lose a chunk of our business from all the people that they held the hands of. But I basically said, "Well, it's better to know what's going to happen. Can't live this way." So I was sleeping three, four hours a night for like seven months, just stressed out about the situation. And you know, I flew in, we did it as a like a little ninja move. We set up everything, fired the person, reestablished new management in that that team, and uh I slept nine hours that night. I just remember how relieved I was. And you know what? Generally speaking, when you have a bad teammate and you get rid of them, your clients are going to say, "Thank you." Because if they're bad to you, they were bad to everybody. >> So, always get rid of the cancer. It's the worst. That person was pure utter cancer. Yeah, that's uh we haven't talked that's something we haven't discussed in I think years on this, but we used to we had a we've had more than a few times that we've talked about the uh the poison pill type people and stuff like that, the you know the poison hire. And I've I've I always bring that up also as part of talking to customers is saying like look, you know, part of the discovery is making sure that that the personalities work for our company as well as their company because I'm like >> I don't want to be in a situation and I've been in those where corporate wise, you know, we do our thing and somebody else does their thing, but it just doesn't mesh and they've ended up being really bad engagements where it's just like, look, we, you know, you eventually get to a point where you're like, look, we just need to part ways. It's like no person, nothing personal, but like we just we don't fit together. We don't work well together. And usually it'll be something like, hey, here's what you need to, you know, sort of lesson learns. Here's the here's what you need to look for moving forward. And it's not just, you know, usually it's like it's not just the technology or the skills. You need those, but this is what you need from a culture or background or whatever it is that we can, you know, highlight that is like this is why it just doesn't work. You know, it's pretty surprising how much of like digital consulting and any technology, there's a fair amount of business consulting that just happens. There's there's coaching that happens from it. There's and I I always tell folks when you go through a story approach, um you're going to find out that the technology you're looking to solve your problem is really a small percentage of the problem. The problem is, again, I go back to the three P three Ps. people and then processes and then platforms in that order. And the biggest problem is usually folks that don't know what their mission, what how they're part of the story. And once you they understand it and you help them understand it, you're coaching the leadership to hey, you need to communicate with them. This is their job respond this, you know, and you start going through all this business consulting and next thing you know, you're you're you're doing a little bit of HR, you're doing a little bit of business, you're doing a little bit of uh coaching. And uh it's it's funny, you know, I my my my daughter said, "Why don't you get your NBA?" I'm like, "I already got multiple NBAs. I don't need one." I totally understand. >> Yeah. It's funny because before fractional really became a a thing, I mean, it's it's been around for a long time, but before it became like a well-known phrase or anything like that, is somebody when I first heard about a fractional CIO or CTO, whichever it was they talked about at the time, I was like, they described what it was and it's exactly what you described. is like you're coming in, you're you're consulting, you're providing, it's not just technology, it's about the people, it's about the processes, it's about, you know, looking forward and looking back and just so much in in there. >> And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, that sounds exactly like what we do. And I think it's the more often than not I like it's yeah, everybody does. Like I don't know how many people I've talked to that it's if you're in that world, if you're in the >> really if you're if you're in technology consulting, you're in business consulting and 100% that you're you're probably going to come in at some level and be a fractional something for them because like you said, there's key things like RFPs that people just really struggle about just budgets and road maps and estimating and all these things that go into projects. And then of course that's before you even get to the platforms. the platforms, they they they get lost because they were like, well, I don't know how I'm going to be able to navigate it. And I think for me a lot of times it's like, well, you've got person and pro people and processes to navigate first. Basically, it's like you you've got the cart way before the horse. It's like, let's let's let's figure out what you really want. And for so many I think that's you know as I've gone more and more into my career I think that's as much if not more why software projects fail is really because the business was never held to like put their thing they didn't really understand what they wanted and nobody on the technology side said wait we really we're just going to build what you ask opposed to let's actually let's solve a problem let's understand the problem and solve that. Yeah, I think that's a big differentiator. If I was talking to someone starting off in their business like you said in consulting or software or developing or whatever, I'd say you will grow faster if you focus on the people processes first than building the solution. Building the solution is not as important as understanding the problem, understanding um how they got from point A to point B and re-engineering that because people want to be heard. People want to be understood and you know being heard is part of being people. Being understood is part of the processes and the platform really is the outcome of understanding those well and and accommodating that. So yeah, if you're going to start a business, start there. >> So we're we are pushing our time and I appreciate it has flown by. Uh this has been great conversation now and I'm you've brought up a lot of great points. So for those that are out there that in the audience are like this this sounds like somebody or a company that we'd really want to work with. What's the best way for them to get a hold of you? >> Sure. Um, you can shoot uh message me on LinkedIn. Um, just linkedin.comdusty. Uh, e-resources.com. Uh, we have a new brand coming out where we're unifying everything in January. We're really excited about that. Um, but uh, yeah, you can find me anywhere on LinkedIn. My email is dustygullison.com. You'll get to me or dusty.com. Um, I I'm quick to respond uh to anything that you have. I love to work with you. I love solving problems. It's fun. Enjoy it. >> Uh, I agree 100%. Well, thank you so much for your time. Uh, appreciate you you hanging out with us for a little bit. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And, uh, yeah. So, I think we'll, uh, we will wrap this one up. Uh we usually have with our uh with our our video side, our our YouTube side, we have sort of like a little bonus, you know, section and stuff like that. Be I think for this is like what would be one thing you would recommend? And this is like I know this is like a big thing, but maybe like so let's say somebody that's a somebody's getting started out, they've got a little side hustle. Think of yourself back when you're laying on the floor and and hustling your butt off to get the the business. like what's what is one thing that you would you would say that you would you would love to be able to say yourself when you're like in the midst of that and and struggling through it. >> Yeah. You know, when I was in ninth grade, I didn't have uh very many friends. I had a tough time making friends. You know, it was awkward just coming out of middle school. My dad gave me a book because my dad is a big reader and he thinks books solves problems and they do. So, gave me a book by Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People. And I find a lot of techners or developers, uh, people that are starting out, they don't know how to relate to people very well. And learning how to relate to people and ask questions and show interest and understand folks, not just to say the words, but truly go, I want to understand where this person's coming from is going to be the most effective way to start your business and grow your business. Because if you don't know how to have a conversation with something, you don't know how to pull out the information that you need or understand where they're going or what they want to do, you're not going to be that successful. And I remember at that point when I figured that out and how to engage people, it really changed my whole trajectory in life because I was able now to actually have conversations that were of value that actually went to the root of issues. And so that's that would be my first recommendation. And if you know how to talk to people really well, you know how to do that, that's great. There's a I would just keep on developing that that skill set because uh people love empathy and people deserve that empathy, especially if you're going to do a good job for them. >> Excellent. I think that is uh I I agree 100%. I think that is a great way to start and it is it is it comes down to you're solving problems but the first part of solving the problems is you have to be able to get somebody to talk about the problem and then is amazing the the floodgates that open sometimes once you get that going when they feel like they're being heard and they feel like all right now somebody's going to actually solve my problem or help me with this then it makes a it does make a huge difference. >> Absolutely. >> All right well thanks so much and we will let you get on with your day. Um, we'll have links in the show notes for all of this kind of good stuff and and for everybody that's listening and we will send you uh it'll probably be about I think we're in about 2 3 weeks out something like that. I think this may hit right before Christmas. If not, it'll be right after because we do Christmas specials that week. But right around mid to either said I put us either mid late December or early January we'll have these out. But I'll send you links for those uh for both of them as they come out. So feel free to share them around wherever you want. >> Absolutely. We'll do >> use them however you want to. Uh thanks so much. And if there's anything that I can do for you, then definitely just feel out. I'll I don't know that I got you on LinkedIn. I'll make sure I I add you out there as well because uh love to just wherever we can help people solve problems, we're happy to point people in the right directions. >> Likewise. Hey, I appreciate it very much. >> All right. Thanks a lot. Have a good one, Dusty. >> You too. >> Bye.
Transcript Segments
Hello and welcome back. We are
continuing our season of building better
foundations. We are the building better
developers podcast also the developer
podcast. Uh same name and this episode
we are continuing our interview with
Dusty Gullison and we will start that
momentarily but first I need to
introduce myself. My name is Rob
Broadhead, one of the founders of
building better developers developer
also the founder of RB consulting where
we help you assess your technology build
a roadmap moving forward for success.
good thing, bad thing. Um,
weather is so often a topic, but uh I'm
going to go with this anyways. Uh,
recently I was in Vegas for a week and
the weather was phenomenal. Uh, I left a
cold Nashville for a warm Las Vegas. It
was great walking around each night.
Everything it it went well. Um, the one
thing that was bad was we had one day
where it just poured and poured and
poured and we me it was good that we
missed the pouring part of it. We we
went out, we saw the Grand Canyon, we
came back, we didn't get rained on
really while we were out doing all the
tours and all that. We came back, we're
like, we ended up at a hotel and we just
wanted to go across the street to the
other hotel. Now, I don't know how often
I'm shared, but I'm a I am substantially
taller than my wife. And during the
rain, there was a place where I was
like, "All right, I'm just going to suck
it up. I'm going to get a little bit of
wet." And so, I ran across like a stream
of water going down a regular street.
And like this is like flash flood kind
of stuff that you see in a a desert. I
survived fine and was not terribly well.
As I looked back and saw what I had left
behind me, I realized that luckily my
wife did not follow me because otherwise
she probably would have been swept away.
It was just that kind of a thing. Uh it
took her a while to get to safety, but
the good news is is she did and we went
on and had a a good old time. Uh
somebody else who is probably not likely
to be swept away in a a torrent of, you
know, 3-in water or something like that
is my co-host. Go ahead and introduce
yourself.
>> Hey everyone, my name is Michael
Malashsh. I'm one of the co-founders of
Building Better Developers, also known
as Developer. I'm also the founder of a
software company called Envision QA,
where we help businesses build smarter,
stronger software with custom
development and rock solid testing. Uh,
good thing, bad thing. So, thank
goodness we're not in rainy season
because we have had one to two inches of
rain at the farm just running down the
driveway. So, we've had our own rivers
here, but not this time of year. So,
that's the good thing. Um, similar
situation here. Uh well, Rob left town.
I was stuck in Tennessee. Uh it got
really cold. We got down to 21°. Had to
wrap everything up. And then uh today, I
think we're like over 70 right now. It's
beautiful. Getting ready to probably go
outside uh have a glass of wine and just
enjoy the weather before uh we start
getting cold again before the holidays.
And now we are going to dive right into
our conversation with Dusty and continue
right where we left off. Uh hope you
guys are ready to take some notes
because once again this is a great
interview and a couple of good nuggets
that get dropped along the way. Here we
go back with Dusty.
So, it seems like that we talk a lot
about the 8020 rule and and getting
like, you know, you're going to
especially when you're getting into like
an MVP or version one of something where
you're like, let's get get the things
that have the most value. Let's get
those done. Let's get those out there so
we can start actually benefiting from it
and then we can come back and add the
other things. Mhm.
>> How do you handle the situations where
you've got because there are some things
that depends on your company and your
your business, your line of business,
stuff like that, your vertical, but
there's there are things that 8020
doesn't cut it. There's like there are
certain things that have to be
basically, you know, essentially have to
be 100%.
>> Sure. Sure. I I I think when you first
start off, there's going to be 8020.
Identifying what that 20% is important.
Uh that's why we're very u key on using
that Moscow rule because a lot of a lot
of our clients have great ideas and
they're fantastic but at the end of the
day when you do that story what is your
honest to god outcome that you want to
try to do? Well we just need to process
these three processes critical. Okay
then those become your musthaves and you
pair out what are the the 20%. Um
sometimes you know if it's you know one
process I need to make sure that this
API works and well then that's just one
thing you know but usually when you're
building an enterprise solution or a
website or an app there are a lot of
things that um are what what I call data
collection bloat where they're
collecting a lot of data that it's not
even actionable about they want to do it
in the future. So we always try to
identify where is your data collection
bloat first. There's a lot of processes
that they want to do because it's going
to go into a future plan and so you
start pairing that back. So there is
generally speaking going to always be a
20% that you can find somewhere. Um and
usually uh the easiest place to find it
is in the budget. You only have 100
grand, this is what you can get for 100
grand. you only have you know 300 grand
this is what you can get for 300 grand.
Um so uh usually the budget is the first
place that will constrain
um your deliverables and then then
timeline and then uh you know phase two
stuff that you know once you understand
the story you go actually that's really
not launch necessary.
Um, one of the things that people, and I
mentioned this earlier, people that are
starting out a lot run into, I think, is
there's a budget. So, you you do have a
budget and they have a a vision of what
they want. And it may not it's usually
not going to be complete, but they've
got some level what they want as a
customer,
>> but the budget doesn't fit what is
really going to be most likely a
solution, whether they've they've
thought it out enough and you look at
you say, "Yeah, that be great and you
need it,
>> but your budget can't cover it." or vice
versa where it's just like they've sort
of picked a budget and they say, "Well,
I think this is what I can do within the
budget." What do you what you say to
somebody that's especially if somebody
somebody comes to you at your company or
something like that that says, "Hey, I'm
this is what I need. You know, I need to
I need to go get these guys to go spend
$1,000." They say they only want to
spend $100. Should I just tell them to
spend $100 and figure out how to make it
work within that or should I push them
and say, "This is really where you need
to be?" Well, the best way to solve that
problem, I find, is talk about the
story. Let's not talk about budgets.
Let's talk about your story. What do you
where do you want to be? What are you
trying to do? What are the, you know,
characters in the story? And and they
map it out and I go, what's the most
important part of your story for your
company? Right now, it's this. Okay. And
then we talk about what we call um
golden processes.
What are your golden process? the ones
that generate revenue for you that are
must haves so you can actually sustain
and grow. So in this story, what are the
things that are actually going to
generate revenue for you? And then we
identify those. And then I say, okay,
you want to do this thing. Maybe you
focus on chapter one of this story,
which is, you know, we want you to spend
$1,000, but let's spend a hundred bucks
and get chapter one done and then start
building on it. I'm a firm believer in
not I I really hate huge budgets.
I mean, you have them, but I hate huge
chunks. I'd rather solve small chunks,
little by little. And you start having
that uh flywheel event where, hey, we're
successful with $100, so let's do 200
bucks. We're successful with 200 bucks.
It's adopted, everyone likes it, and
then you're 300 bucks. And the more you
do that, um, I think you're going to
find a more success in actually the
delivery of the solution. But really, at
the end of the day, the client has to
see the whole trajectory of where
they're trying to go and go, "Ah, that
makes sense why you want me to spend
$1,000, but if I can spend $100 here and
it improves my my revenue prospects,
then let's do that and then we can do
the next part." And so, you break things
down. This is why it's so critical to
have that discovery to do that Moscow
approach um to understand the outcomes
and where everyone's going.
>> Yeah. It's amazing to me how often I've
seen even like huge budget projects
where they they bulk at, you know,
spending a few thousand, you know,
they'll be it'll be six, seven figure
projects and they want to like, no, we
can't spend a few thousand on a
discovery process or anything like that.
site. To me, it seems it seems
ridiculously, you know, shortsighted to
do so
that don't have a budget and or are
doing their first project and they have
no clue where to begin and it's like
sticker shock when you try to explain
what the cost of some of this stuff will
be and they're like, "Well, wait,
>> you know, it needs to be cheaper." Those
are the hard ones to talk to.
I was just in Tampa meeting with a
retail company um last week, last Friday
and uh sat down with them and they had
spent a year and a half struggling with
creating this online e-commerce
environment and they were trying to do
it cheap you know I think Woo Commerce
or something but you know they had at
bare minimum 15 to 20,000 SKs. I was
like well and they want to do all these
kind of things and I was like I don't
think that's going to work for you. And
they're like, 'Well, tell us what we
should do. I said, 'First of all, I
can't tell you what to do until we
actually know what you want to do.
You're telling me you just want to sell
stuff? Well, everybody does, but have
you thought about logistics? Have you
thought about integrating, you know, a
shipping platform? Have you thought
about your inventory in real time? Have
you thought about insurance? Have you
thought about claims? Have you thought
about your ADA compliance on a store
online? have you thought about? And so I
started laying about all these things
cuz they handed me a two-page proposal
from from a company that just had like
five line items and a price. And I was
like, "This is not a proposal.
This is a disaster." I said, "You're
throwing more good money after
something." I said, "Did they give you a
discovery docking? Did they give you a
road map? Did they give you a
development calendar? Did they give you
a schedule?" And you know, I'm like,
"You're spending hundreds of thousands
of dollars. what are you doing? And so I
I I couldn't agree more with you. A lot
of folks just don't understand what it
takes. Everyone's looking at the the
finish line and not the start line,
right? Every's like, "Oh, I'm going to
have a a store that's bringing 100 200
grand of, you know, revenue a month."
Like, you don't have anything yet. How
do you get there? So, understanding the
road map and understanding the journey
and the story is so critical to these
clients. And I remember leaving that
that that meeting and they were just
shaking their heads and like what should
we do? I'm like,
"You don't even know what you need to do
yet. You need to sit with a partner
that's done it for other clients and
walk them through it and do the hard
work." So they're like, "All right,
we're going to put together your budget
and we'll be back in Q1." I'm like,
"That's a good place to start. Put
together a budget. Figure out what you
want and for what you want to do." I
said, "You need at least a minimum a
quart million to half a million budget.
start there. If you're not ready to do
that, you're not ready to get to the
companies that you gave me as examples
of what you want to be like.
>> So,
>> yeah, I love I love I use that example
all the time where people have a, you
know, someone come in and be a
entrepreneur or something like, "Hey, I
want to build, you know, eBay for pet
supplies and I got a $500 budget or
something like that." say, you know,
these things where it's like you realize
this is like you sometimes the economy
is a scale like blow my mind where it's
like you really think that if you could
build a billion dollar business for
hundreds of dollars, there wouldn't be
10 of those already out there at least
or more. Oh, which before we go too far
down that road, I I'll switch gears a
little.
>> I was gonna say that that client I was
meeting with literally said that this
developer wants to build an Amazon for
this environment and have me put my
skews on. I'm like, that's that's a red
flag just to start with.
>> That right away is like they they're
missing something. So, there is a
disconnect there.
>> Yeah, they're going to vibe code their
way to millions.
>> That's right. That's right. There. Boy,
that's there's a lot of that out there
right now. We'll see where that ends up.
Um, I want to switch gears a little bit
because one of the things is he's built
a a sizable company over hundred uh
people, 100 employees without outside
capital. And I know that a lot of a lot
of times that's that's like a chicken
and egg thing that people seem to run
into. They're like, "Well, I would love
to make a lot of money, but it takes
money to make money and I can't get
there, so I'm going to have to go."
>> And that sometimes that even stops uh
developers with great ideas that have
got you I've run into plenty that have
got great product ideas. are like,
"Well, but I got to go I'm going to go
deal with venture capital or find an
angel investor or something like that or
get a big loan or whatever it is so I
can actually fund it and I'd like to I
think this is where you can you can
provide some of your experience and you
know for somebody else that's wanting to
build without going out and getting all
that funding."
>> Yeah. So, there's two parts of that. The
first part I would tell folks is you can
do anything with time and grit.
And when we first started, the first
five years, it took me five years to get
to a million bucks and gross revenue
just just it was just myself and then I
hired a childhood friend. I grew up in
Asia, so I used H1B to get one of my
friends over here back in 19 2000.
And I remember early on, uh, he would
code and I'd sleep on the floor. Then
he'd wake me up and I get up and QA and
you know put some design documents while
he slept on the floor. And we did that
for years, you know. Um you know during
the day when he was coding I would uh
some I would just grind it. I'd pick up
the phone and call folks and be like you
know I think you need this. was in there
days when there's we're competing with
like vignette for CMS and a lot of
nonprofits and associations didn't have
a CMS and so we built our own CMS and
that took a lot of work and that got us
off the ground that led to one thing
after another and you start getting
momentum. It's all about momentum. You
got to just keep moving and you're going
to you're going to struggle. I I there's
so many pivot points in our business
where I like if that didn't come
through. I don't know what we'd have
done, but we'd have done something else,
right? We'd have figured something else
out. And I always tell folks, if I knew
what I know now back then, I probably
wouldn't have done it because it's such
a barrier. But I got to say, in the
States, there's so much opportunity with
so many businesses you can start, so
much you can do, and you don't really
need money. You just need the ability to
find an opportunity and sell it. I lived
on, you know, for a year I lived on uh
checks from credit cards. That's how I
paid myself. That's how I paid rent. You
know, we were, my wife and I were newly
married. We lived in a basement, some
person's house. We It's the classic
story. You just work hard. So, I would
say grit. Just do it. If you have a
great idea, don't worry about failing.
Fail as fast as you can. I mean, I know
that's a cliche these days, but it needs
a lot. Fail and find a solution, then,
you know, put your foot in the door and
open that a little wider. The other way
we grew about 2015 after we were in
business for about 15 years, we grew
through acquisitions uh once we had
established ourselves and I would say
the SBA financing vehicle is an
extremely extremely good vehicle and we
use that to acquire uh companies over uh
five companies in the last 10 years 11
years. We bolt on the company, integrate
it, get the revenue up and you know my
job switched from actually working in
the company to working on the company
and we'd find opportunities, bolt them
on and create more revenue, pay off the
note, do another one. You know, I'm in
the middle of looking another
opportunity right now because it's
there's so much out there and it's the
same thing with like house flippers,
right? They go out and find some hard
money, flip a house. Same kind of
notion. There is money out there, but
you have to execute in order for that
money to work. So, there is risk. You
know, I I have a mortgage and some of
that stuff is tied to an SBA guarantee.
Well, that's fine, but I'm willing to
take that risk. Um, so we're looking at
100 plus employees now. And did it work?
Yeah. And you can do it. And there are
venues for cash out there. You don't
have to go to a private equity. I mean,
between you and me and the fence board,
I don't like private equity folks at
all. I mean, they they drive me crazy
because they have no interest in your
company. And that's why I tell folks,
private equity are great as long as you
know that they are a tool, but they
don't care about you personally and the
business and the culture and what you're
trying to build. They have one thing in
mind. What's their exit? And that's the
only thing they care about. And as long
as you're on an extra trajectory with
them, great. But generally speaking,
you're not um you're trying to build
something. So I always try to say use
like an SBA vehicle. Um you have equity
in your house, use that to leverage for
a bigger loan. Do those things if you
need cash. But at the end of the day,
hard work and actually building
relationships and your network because
people want people to solve problems.
There's a zillion problems out there.
And you know, I remember when my first
big gig came and I was at church and I
said, "Oh man, I could do that problem
for you. Here's let's meet on Monday.
Let's talk about that." And you know,
like, "Oh, you have an idea." You know,
people want to be understood and they're
going to trust people to understand and
then deliver on that. You know, our our
slogan at E Resources, and we're
actually changing our name next year,
believe it or not, but our slogan always
has been strategy delivered.
we won't just consult with you, but
we'll actually deliver labor on that
strategy and folks really love that.
>> So, does that answer your question?
>> Oh, yes, very much so.
>> So, I got kind of a followup to that.
Um, so
you went through the whole process, you
know, you had these experiences building
your company um up to 100 employees. as
you were going through this over the
years, you know, have you ever, I'm sure
you have, most entrepreneurs have, h had
kind of that down point where you really
while you were trying to build things
up, things weren't going right, things
were going down, and you it
was kind of your worst
point where you like almost threw threw
it in, you know, threw it away, but how
did you overcome that?
Yeah, that's that's a great question.
There's a number of those spots. Um I've
never been quite in the throwing it away
unless it got taken away from me um like
through like everything fell apart. Um
so probably the biggest
overcoming story was probably in 2008
when the market went completely
sideways. Um I think about 30 to 40% of
our clients their cash seized up and so
our AR seized up and our our vendors
seized up and everything seized up right
there's that 2 three month and it took
like a year to unwind everything and
cash was
super
my wife and I just moved to Washington
state and we just decided to buy a house
and then I think every mortgage lender
one after another pulled their uh
portfolio from us. We get another
mortgage ready to sign, pull it another
one. So I think we went through six
spend uh six mortgage crisis and it took
us a year to actually get that place.
And that's just in the consumer side.
Just think about it on the business side
where I had clients that said
we can't do this. And you know, I would
say the good thing about this, I saw
this coming and I pulled out all our
lines of credit right before they all
got asked. And that was a just watching
the macroeconomics of it. I knew
something bad was coming down the pipe.
And so we were able to not fire anybody,
thank God, or lay off anybody because we
knew that that would affect them. U we
had some attrition and we let that
happen. But um we went to our clients
that were struggling. We said, "Hey,
we're going to work with you. We're your
partner first. We're not going to harass
you. Let's see how we can work this out
together." and those having strong
relationships with both your vendors and
your clients are super critical in times
like that. Um and and and starting from
the point of a positive intention of
everybody, right? Um there's a lot of
clients that ghosted us and I finally
got them on the phone. I said, "Listen,
you don't have to ghost me. You're safe
here.
This is we're both in the same boat.
We're no worse. You're no better. We're
we're going to work this through
together." and that helped dramatically
uh solve that. Um, yeah, it that was a
huge pressure point and I don't think we
came out of that. Like I took out a
bunch of loans prior to that and I think
it wasn't until 2011 that I pulled
ourselves out of that situation and it
was just like we'll work harder. You
can't afford this? Great. We're going to
discount this 20% to get you here
because we know you need to have this
done. And so we just discounted we
worked harder. our team, you know, at
the end of the day, God bless our team.
We have great employees. Our average
um employment terms 14 years that people
stay with our firm, which you know,
we're 26 year old firm and go. Um we
just had an employee that had his 25th
uh anniversary with us this last week.
Wow.
>> And we're 26 years, right? So, I uh I
would I would say going back to that, it
came down to just relationships,
maintaining good relationships, great
communication. Don't fear the bad thing.
I always have a saying as don't fear the
monster in your closet when you're a kid
and you're scared in your bed and you
think something's in the closet. It's a
little I said turn on that flashlight,
open up that door, have a look in there.
Just it's better to know how bad that
P&L sheet is, how bad the AR report is,
how bad that debt statement is than not
to know it. The unknown is the death of
you. Knowing is better than unknowing in
those situations. So yeah, I would say
that 2008 was a huge pivot point.
There's other times where things
happened, but um I said the other big
one probably for us is we did two
acquisitions within four months of each
other. We I don't recommend it. We
bought two separate companies, two
separate cultures, and we had a we
inherited a senior manager that was just
the absolute worst. It
probably the worst experience with a
coworker in my lifetime.
And like the day, you know, the ink was
dry on the the acquisition, that person
turned
completely like destructive.
>> They didn't like change. and they
basically tried to undermine the whole
thing. And I thought we're going to lose
the acquisition of value. You know, it
was a 2 million plus small, but for a
small company at the time, it's a lot.
>> Um, and the hardest, you know, the
hardest thing I had to do is I was I
felt threatened that if I got rid of
this person that we'd lose a chunk of
our business from all the people that
they held the hands of. But I basically
said, "Well, it's better to know what's
going to happen. Can't live this way."
So I was sleeping three, four hours a
night for like seven months, just
stressed out about the situation.
And you know, I flew in, we did it as a
like a little ninja move. We set up
everything, fired the person,
reestablished new management in that
that team, and uh I slept nine hours
that night.
I just remember how relieved I was. And
you know what? Generally speaking, when
you have a bad teammate and you get rid
of them, your clients are going to say,
"Thank you." Because if they're bad to
you, they were bad to everybody.
>> So, always get rid of the cancer. It's
the worst.
That person was pure utter cancer.
Yeah, that's uh we haven't talked that's
something we haven't discussed in I
think years on this, but we used to we
had a we've had more than a few times
that we've talked about the uh the
poison pill type people and stuff like
that, the you know the poison hire. And
I've I've I always bring that up also as
part of talking to customers is saying
like look, you know, part of the
discovery is making sure that that the
personalities work for our company as
well as their company because I'm like
>> I don't want to be in a situation and
I've been in those where corporate wise,
you know, we do our thing and somebody
else does their thing, but it just
doesn't mesh and they've ended up being
really bad engagements where it's just
like, look, we, you know, you eventually
get to a point where you're like, look,
we just need to part ways. It's like no
person, nothing personal, but like we
just we don't fit together. We don't
work well together. And usually it'll be
something like, hey, here's what you
need to, you know, sort of lesson
learns. Here's the here's what you need
to look for moving forward. And it's not
just, you know, usually it's like it's
not just the technology or the skills.
You need those, but this is what you
need from a culture or background or
whatever it is that we can, you know,
highlight that is like this is why it
just doesn't work. You know, it's pretty
surprising how much of like digital
consulting and any technology, there's a
fair amount of business consulting that
just happens. There's there's coaching
that happens from it. There's and I I
always tell folks when you go through a
story approach, um you're going to find
out that the technology you're looking
to solve your problem is really a small
percentage of the problem. The problem
is, again, I go back to the three P
three Ps. people and then processes and
then platforms in that order. And the
biggest problem is usually folks that
don't know what their mission, what how
they're part of the story. And once you
they understand it and you help them
understand it, you're coaching the
leadership to hey, you need to
communicate with them. This is their job
respond this, you know, and you start
going through all this business
consulting and next thing you know,
you're you're you're doing a little bit
of HR, you're doing a little bit of
business, you're doing a little bit of
uh coaching. And uh it's it's funny, you
know, I my my my daughter said, "Why
don't you get your NBA?" I'm like, "I
already got multiple NBAs. I don't need
one." I totally understand.
>> Yeah. It's funny because before
fractional really became a a thing, I
mean, it's it's been around for a long
time, but before it became like a
well-known phrase or anything like that,
is somebody when I first heard about a
fractional CIO or CTO, whichever it was
they talked about at the time, I was
like, they described what it was and
it's exactly what you described. is like
you're coming in, you're you're
consulting, you're providing, it's not
just technology, it's about the people,
it's about the processes, it's about,
you know, looking forward and looking
back and just so much in in there.
>> And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, that
sounds exactly like what we do. And I
think it's the more often than not I
like it's yeah, everybody does. Like I
don't know how many people I've talked
to that it's if you're in that world, if
you're in the
>> really if you're if you're in technology
consulting, you're in business
consulting and 100% that you're you're
probably going to come in at some level
and be a fractional something for them
because like you said, there's key
things like RFPs that people just really
struggle about just budgets and road
maps and estimating and all these things
that go into projects. And then of
course that's before you even get to the
platforms. the platforms, they they they
get lost because they were like, well, I
don't know how I'm going to be able to
navigate it. And I think for me a lot of
times it's like, well, you've got person
and pro people and processes to navigate
first. Basically, it's like you you've
got the cart way before the horse. It's
like, let's let's let's figure out what
you really want. And for so many I think
that's you know as I've gone more and
more into my career I think that's as
much if not more why software projects
fail is really because the business was
never held to like put their thing they
didn't really understand what they
wanted and nobody on the technology side
said wait we really we're just going to
build what you ask opposed to let's
actually let's solve a problem let's
understand the problem and solve that.
Yeah, I think that's a big
differentiator. If I was talking to
someone starting off in their business
like you said in consulting or software
or developing or whatever, I'd say you
will grow faster if you focus on the
people processes first than building the
solution. Building the solution is not
as important as understanding the
problem, understanding um how they got
from point A to point B and
re-engineering that because people want
to be heard. People want to be
understood and you know being heard is
part of being people. Being understood
is part of the processes and the
platform really is the outcome of
understanding those well and and
accommodating that. So yeah, if you're
going to start a business, start there.
>> So we're we are pushing our time and I
appreciate it has flown by. Uh this has
been great conversation now and I'm
you've brought up a lot of great points.
So for those that are out there that in
the audience are like this this sounds
like somebody or a company that we'd
really want to work with. What's the
best way for them to get a hold of you?
>> Sure. Um, you can shoot uh message me on
LinkedIn. Um, just linkedin.comdusty.
Uh, e-resources.com.
Uh, we have a new brand coming out where
we're unifying everything in January.
We're really excited about that. Um, but
uh, yeah, you can find me anywhere on
LinkedIn. My email is dustygullison.com.
You'll get to me or dusty.com.
Um,
I I'm quick to respond uh to anything
that you have. I love to work with you.
I love solving problems. It's fun. Enjoy
it.
>> Uh, I agree 100%. Well, thank you so
much for your time. Uh, appreciate you
you hanging out with us for a little
bit.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> And, uh, yeah. So, I think we'll, uh, we
will wrap this one up. Uh we usually
have with our uh with our our video
side, our our YouTube side, we have sort
of like a little bonus, you know,
section and stuff like that. Be I think
for this is like what would be one thing
you would recommend? And this is like I
know this is like a big thing, but maybe
like so let's say somebody that's a
somebody's getting started out, they've
got a little side hustle. Think of
yourself back when you're laying on the
floor and and hustling your butt off to
get the the business. like what's what
is one thing that you would you would
say that you would you would love to be
able to say yourself when you're like in
the midst of that and and struggling
through it.
>> Yeah. You know, when I was in ninth
grade, I didn't have uh very many
friends. I had a tough time making
friends. You know, it was awkward just
coming out of middle school. My dad gave
me a book because my dad is a big reader
and he thinks books solves problems and
they do. So, gave me a book by Dale
Carnegie, How to Win Friends and
Influence People.
And I find a lot of techners or
developers,
uh, people that are starting out, they
don't know how to relate to people very
well. And learning how to relate to
people and ask questions and show
interest and understand folks, not just
to say the words, but truly go, I want
to understand where this person's coming
from is going to be the most effective
way to start your business and grow your
business. Because if you don't know how
to have a conversation with something,
you don't know how to pull out the
information that you need or understand
where they're going or what they want to
do, you're not going to be that
successful. And I remember at that point
when I figured that out and how to
engage people, it really changed my
whole trajectory in life because I was
able now to actually have conversations
that were of value that actually went to
the root of issues. And so that's that
would be my first recommendation. And if
you know how to talk to people really
well, you know how to do that, that's
great. There's a I would just keep on
developing that that skill set because
uh people love empathy and people
deserve that empathy, especially if
you're going to do a good job for them.
>> Excellent. I think that is uh I I agree
100%. I think that is a great way to
start and it is it is it comes down to
you're solving problems but the first
part of solving the problems is you have
to be able to get somebody to talk about
the problem and then is amazing the the
floodgates that open sometimes once you
get that going when they feel like
they're being heard and they feel like
all right now somebody's going to
actually solve my problem or help me
with this then it makes a it does make a
huge difference.
>> Absolutely.
>> All right well thanks so much and we
will let you get on with your day. Um,
we'll have links in the show notes for
all of this kind of good stuff and and
for everybody that's listening and we
will send you uh it'll probably be about
I think we're in about 2 3 weeks out
something like that. I think this may
hit right before Christmas. If not,
it'll be right after because we do
Christmas specials that week. But right
around mid to either said I put us
either mid late December or early
January we'll have these out. But I'll
send you links for those uh for both of
them as they come out. So feel free to
share them around wherever you want.
>> Absolutely. We'll do
>> use them however you want to. Uh thanks
so much. And if there's anything that I
can do for you, then definitely just
feel out. I'll I don't know that I got
you on LinkedIn. I'll make sure I I add
you out there as well because uh love to
just wherever we can help people solve
problems, we're happy to point people in
the right directions.
>> Likewise. Hey, I appreciate it very
much.
>> All right. Thanks a lot. Have a good
one, Dusty.
>> You too.
>> Bye.