Detailed Notes
Executive coaching can be a powerful tool for tech leaders—but only when it’s the right fit.
In this episode of Building Better Developers, we explore what executive coaching really is, when it helps most, and how engineering leaders can evaluate whether coaching is worth the investment. We discuss common misconceptions about coaching, why it works best during moments of transition, and how leaders can avoid poor coaching fits that lead to frustration instead of growth.
This conversation is especially relevant for senior engineers, tech leads, CTOs, and founders navigating new roles, burnout, or stalled momentum. If working harder isn’t producing better results, this episode offers a clearer way to think about leadership growth and personal development.
Rather than quick fixes, the focus is on awareness, feedback, and leadership habits that scale as responsibility increases.
About Andrew Hinkelman Andrew Hinkelman is a certified executive coach and former CTO who works with tech founders, CTOs, and engineering leaders to strengthen their leadership and people skills.
With over 25 years of corporate experience, including 8 years as a Chief Technology Officer, Andrew brings firsthand insight into the challenges technical leaders face as they move from hands-on execution to leading teams and organizations.
After experiencing burnout in his own leadership journey, Andrew shifted his focus from fixing problems himself to empowering others to succeed. Today, he helps leaders stay strategic, build trust, and develop resilient teams.
Key takeaways • What executive coaching actually does (and what it doesn’t) • When coaching is most effective for tech leaders • How to evaluate coaching fit before committing • Red flags that signal poor coaching engagements • Why burnout often points to misaligned focus, not lack of effort
Follow Andrew • https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewhinkelman/ • https://www.instagram.com/andrewhinkelman/
Follow Develpreneur • [email protected] • https://develpreneur.com/ • https://www.youtube.com/@develpreneur • https://facebook.com/Develpreneur • https://x.com/develpreneur • https://www.linkedin.com/company/develpreneur/
Transcript Text
[music] [music] [music] [music] Hey, Andrew. How you doing? >> Hey Rob, how are you? >> Not too bad. >> Hi, Michael. >> How are you? >> Good. How's it going? >> Pretty good. >> All right, let me Where put that? I just had that up. Okay. Where are you guys? >> Uh, I am actually s I'm in uh Porto, Portugal. >> Oh, nice. >> Yes. >> Been to been to Portugal. Not not Porto, though. >> This is my first. >> So, >> Oh, really? You just visiting? >> Uh, well, I'm I just headed into Europe about a month ago and started into a digital nomad journey. So, we're been here like two weeks and going to be here for another couple of months before we hop up and move on to the next spot. >> Nice. Nice. A buddy that's moving to Portugal. I think uh Logos or something down the southern >> that should be nice. >> Beautiful. >> Yeah, it is. It's a great area. And Michael is in Jackson, Tennessee. All right. >> And where are you at? >> I'm outside Seattle. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> So, all right. So, it's super early there. It's what, 8? >> It's 8, you know. >> Yeah. First thing in the morning. All right. >> Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm a I'm an early bird. I'm usually, you know, doing my own kind of stuff in the mornings. You guys are probably the same way. It's like, you don't you don't mind getting up super early when it's your own your own thing. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's the best time to be. That is the most productive productive time. That's for sure. >> Totally. Like why would you why would you waste it like on email or something, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> All right. So, um I guess just sort of getting you into this a little bit. Um so, we the the focus is our audience is um developer entrepreneur kind of stuff. are the whole thought is that those that as you get into your true developers, those that get in their journey are usually entrepreneurial of some sort. They're really problem solvers. They're they usually have a side hustle or two or three of them uh you know going to consulting and things like that. So we uh we do cover we try to like merge uh you know bridge the gap between conversations about like running and you know main your core business things versus technology and and definitely how to uh leverage one to to help the other things of that nature. Uh this season our our season focus is um essentially the the short of is getting unstuck. it is uh finding ways to you know get the ball moving forward and get forward momentum. >> Uh so we'll talk about you know where people got stuck or where things can can move forward. We'll see how it goes in the conversation because typically we let it just sort of go. We don't ask specific questions. We uh we start it by I do an in I do an introduction. Mike introduces himself. We toss it to you to introduce yourself and then 99 times out of 100 it like the conversation just goes from there. we dive in, you know, usually follow up on something that you've mentioned in your uh uh in your introduction and then we just have a nice uh you know, conversation there. It runs total uh we'll be done within an hour. Uh we typically do about two it we'll split it into two episodes. Typically they run about I don't know 20 25 minutes a piece something like that. So >> yeah, I was going to ask you about that. I had a I have a a virtual assistant that schedules stuff for me and I have a hard stop at 9 my time. So is that >> okay? >> So I mean if if that's an issue then um you know happy to I don't know if you I mean if you guys if you guys want to do more time another in in another time we could we could do this another day. I mean it's totally up to you. >> We'll see how it goes. We should be able to get it done. I've got a hard stop as well so it should work well. we'll be able to get you out of here uh with a few minutes to spare so you can do bio breaks and stuff like that. Refill your coffee before you can get into the next one. >> Yeah. >> Um we'll wrap it up at the end. We'll we'll throw something. You just say, "Hey, what's the best way for you to uh for people to get a hold of you and provide some links?" We'll put those in the show notes once we're done recording because we do um we do both a video and an audio version of this. The video is out on YouTube. And so what we do is we wrap up the audio and then we usually have we'll have bonus material and we'll basically come out of the audio and ask you like maybe one you know one thing that you recommend or something along those lines. There'll be a little bit of bonus uh you know for those listening or those watching and then we'll uh wrap it up and send you on your merry way. >> Yeah. All right. Sounds great. >> All right. Questions, comments, anything like that before we get going? >> No, I think we're good. >> Okay. Uh then we will start out th Oh uno. Well hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season. We are getting ourselves moving forward. It's the beginning of a new year and sometimes that's a hard thing as you come out of the prior year but that's what we're focusing on for this season. Uh this episode we are actually going to start a new conversation and we will um give you a little more about that soon. Uh this is the building better developers podcast also known as developer. Actually, it's always backwards. It was developer, also known as building better developers because Alexa and those ladies in the box. That being said, I should introduce myself now. Robad, one of the founders of developer, also the founder of RB Consulting, where we help you leverage technology to get your business unstuck and moving forward and uh look for a successful 2026. Good things, bad things. Uh good thing is, well, I'll start with the bad thing. Bad thing is we had a slight uh health emergency yesterday and uh it turned into something being in a new town, a new city and stuff like that. It turned into a little actually new country, new continent, a lot of things like that turned in a little bit of a challenge. Uh the good thing is is that even though Apple Maps is not always exactly up todate and steered me to a couple places that didn't even exist anymore, I was able to finally find all the places I needed to. And the good thing is is like public travel when you're in a big city these days is really easy. Whether you're an Uber or Bolt or whatever the heck it you're using, uh, it's it's easy and fast. So when you're like huffing and puffing and sweating too hard, you can hop in a car and get a cab on the way home essentially. One guy that is not going to be heading home anytime soon because he's already there. Michael, go ahead and introduce yourself. Hey everyone, my name is Mike Malage. I'm one of the co-founders of Building Better Developers, often known as developer. I'm also the founder of Envision QA where we design and test software that fits your workflow. That way you can stop fighting your tools and start to run your business. Uh good thing, bad thing. Um start with the bad thing. Um it's just winter time. Tennessee, wonderful weather. Uh it can be 70° one day, freezing the next day. Has some of that going on. Um which unfortunately just makes it for a dreary season. Uh good thing though, uh today's a nice sunny day. Things are drying out again and looks like it's going to turn out to be a good week maybe. Although they are talking about snow in the next two days, so we'll see. >> Uh a white Christmas just a month later or so. And today we have speaking with us Andrew. Andrew, go ahead and introduce yourself. >> Yeah. Hey guys, thanks for having me. I'm Andrew Hingleman and I'm a certified executive coach and founder of a company called Priority One Group. We focus mostly on executive coaching, one-on-one coaching, team coaching, and training with engineers. So, my background in the corporate space was in running engineering teams. Was a CTO for about eight years at a global financial services company. Um, so yeah, we uh we focus on the human side. So leadership skills, what you call soft skills, those kinds of things that we all we all need to get a little better at. Um, I'm going to steal from Michael for for for the the good bad here. The the bad in Seattle is a lack of daylight. So it's people talk about the rain. I'm going to say it's not really the rain. It's not seeing the sun for long stretches of time and that's that that wears on you over time. Um, good thing got a couple trips coming up in the in the near future. So, uh, this is the time of the year where we go south as much as possible. Probably, uh, make a couple trips to Mexico if possible. >> Excellent. Yes, I know. That was one of the things years ago that made me leave the Chicago area is it wasn't the cold. It was just that I didn't see sunlight for about eight months and it was just not that did not work for my psyche or my physique or anything else. I was like time to I need some sun. >> [laughter] >> So, let's dive right in because um what I want to like jump right into like as an executive coach, I think this is something that people um you sometimes get a little confused about like what coaches can do and when they can come in and things like that. So, you're talking people that are already to some level successful. You know, people would look at them and say, "Oh, you're successful because you are an executive or you're a leader or something like that." So, what is one of the common things that maybe the common themes that would uh you know light a fire under somebody at that level to say, you know what, I need a I need to get with a coach and see how I can get moving. >> Yeah, great question. Um first, um I want to dispel a little bit of the executive part of executive coach. In in reality, it's just we don't have a better modifier. We don't have a better adjective. [clears throat] um you know sometimes I'll say leadership coach which is as confusing you know so so in some ways it's sort of like corporate coach um it can be anyone at any level but but uh the main thing really is that someone has something going on like maybe they got kicked in the teeth a little bit and and a project went south really badly. Maybe they're getting laid off. Maybe there's a merger and you know they're redundant. So um usually there's something right because because you know the reality is you don't need a coach if you are making good progress you're happy with where you are. Not everyone needs needs to work with a coach. But if you have high aspirations or some some sort of event going on is probably the the indicator where it's it's a good time to get some confidential, you know, uh another set of eyeballs on things. Does that mean that you tend is there I'm trying to say how to phrase it, but is it does it mean that there are situations where just that extra set of eyeballs where it's sort of like just come in and do like a you know we'll call it like a session or two or something and get somebody to just sort of point you in the right direction or is it typically going to be something that's a little more of here's the direction and here's how we're going to get you moving forward. So it's more of an ongoing you know checking in kind of a relationship. >> It's usually more involved. So, a a successful coaching engagement is like you have some very specific goals and you have some things that make it hard to get there and it's usually, you know, hidden blocks, things, old habits that you should have let go of already. Takes time to get there, right? Cuz we're really not that good at knowing what we're good at and bad at and where we're blocked. >> So, you need feedback. So, so most of the time we start off with some type of like 360 at the very beginning because that's super super powerful and and um that's a great way to make sure that you have a a a tie into what other people are saying about you. Oh, and that leads to a good point, too. It's like do you I think some people are like I need to get my house in order a little bit before I actually have somebody try and coach me. It's like I need to be I need to be able to go play the game before I can have somebody coach me on how to do it. Is that something that you know if there if somebody's just like I don't even know where to begin. Is that still something that you guys can can help with or is there something that they should it helps to do a little prep work before they walk into talking to a coach? >> No, I don't I don't know that a bunch of prep work is really a good use of your time. Like you no matter what you're going to come in kind of messy and you're going to you're going to you're going to think I just need to build better relationships or I just need to learn the business, right? cuz people tell you that all the time. >> Yep. >> But the reality is just like, you know, you need to open up and start, you know, communicating more or, you know, it's you're going to come in with something either way, so you may as well just come in messy, you know. >> So, h how do you kind of find your find the people that need coaching? Uh what is your like ideal customer that would come to you for coaching advice for coaching help? >> Yeah, it's a great question. Um the the ideal really is someone who's new in a role. So you you're vice president of engineering, you change jobs or you went and got a CTO CIO role somewhere or something, right? and and you got into that seat and now it's been a month or two and you're like, "Wow, what did I just step into, right? Or this is really great and this is great, but this is not and I'm going to have to focus over here," you know? So, it's usually some sort of event like uh like a job change, massive um opportunity or or something that makes you look at things a little bit differently. Okay. So if so so say I'm fall into one of those roles and I come to you uh how do we or how do you define the coaching role with your customer like how do you help them first identify okay they're coming to you because there is an issue that you know they've gone into a new role they're struggling uh with a problem. um what are some of the things that your customers would expect from you to kind of h how would you help them? How would you start this process? The reason I'm asking it this way is uh for instance you know for entrepreneurs starting their own business we have lots of struggles lots of questions but how do we know how to identify when to come to a coach or look for coaching and what to expect you know what would we get out of the coaching if that makes if I'm phrasing that right I'm trying to compose this in a way that makes sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um if if we take a founder for example, a lot of times it's you're you know you're you're spending all of your time on the idea. You're building right and you're building you're building you're building and then at some point oper the operational part kind of creeps in. You're like we're doing this by hand again, right? Like or like why are we living in spreadsheets? th those kinds of things creep in and you start to see some issues. Some balls get dropped. The guy who was, you know, brilliant at writing code is also kind of a jerk, right? So you so you wind up finding out you have some brilliant jerks. Your operational maturity is holding you back. You know, there there's probably some flaxs. And and and what I like to do with people is just kind of break it all down and kind of say, "Look, for you, what do you actually want?" Right? Do you just want to get out? Do you just want a quick as quick as possible exit? Maybe it doesn't make sense to clean up everything, or is this your or is this your your 30-year plan? Then it's time to bring in some operational maturity. Um, but another answer to your question, Michael, really is that it's going to come down to the the person. So, the thing that we have to remember is some things are going to be easy for you and some things are going to be hard for you and they're going to be different for someone else. And if you say why, there's some sort of belief in there. Like some people hate public speaking, but for other people it's super easy and natural like what's going on in there, right? There's some sort of belief that we want to uncover. And that's that's the real value of of coaching. >> Okay, that makes a lot of sense. And we talk about a lot about the why. You know, why are we building the companies that we're building? You know, what is it that the customers want? Always that why. In your experience with coaching, what are some of the most common mistakes that you see people make that a coach could help them correct course quickly? You know, because a lot of us as business owners, we have blinders on, you know, we get in our business and we stop focusing on the business or vice versa and we kind of get stuck. Um, what are some tips or advice that you could offer to say, "Hey, uh, you know, you need to reset or you need a pause or hey, go look for help from like a coach." >> Well, I think, you know, I'd be curious to ask you guys this too. You know, in in my experience, the most common area where we get stuck is that comfort zone, right? So if you're a technical person and you start a business, you know, of course you want to wake up early to build and do and you know create create the the new customer journey you dreamt up and whatever it is and build and produce and have something to show people. You might not want to pay attention to cash flow. you may not want to pay attention to uh this person you got on Upwork which is just draining your bank account. Like those kind of things that creep in are are probably where people get held back the most because at some point the thing you're really good at winds up kind of um taking over and can become a bad thing. Right? So I'll give you a really concrete example. I do an emotional intelligence assessment with pretty much everyone that I work with. And for your typical engineer, problem solving and reality testing are super high. Well, probably doesn't surprise you that that a lot of times interpersonal relationships can be really low. So if you're super super into problem solving, you may not want to mess around with people. And that can be the kind of thing where like your comfort zone, your strength, your superpowers is actually depressing other skills that you need. Similar to the comfort zone thing, it can get in your way. Yeah. We had uh early on in my career, we had a pseudo joke that we had in a a development team. we were building software small company uh that you know we could get a lot done if the customers would just get out of the way. It was one of those that was like you know we were we had a product we were supporting customers and that that was you know that was a large portion of our our time and we're like wow if they would just let us work we could get some stuff done and it was it was a little tongue and cheek but there's also I think that is a common challenge I think I I agree 100%. I think the most the most most valuable per way anybody can get themselves moving forward and expand out of that is that whole the whole idea of like eat the frog every day is start with the thing you don't want to do and get that thing done and out of the way and one a lot of times you find it's not as bad as you thought it is and two at least now you've gotten that out of the way and for me like I love it because then it's like that's my reward is I get to go do the stuff I like because I got the stuff done that I don't like >> got that craft out of the way. >> Yeah. >> If somebody's thinking about co because you you touched on a couple things about um the person and being we'll call it, you didn't say it, but I'll call it like being coachable. And if you think of, you know, famous coaches, there are some that get along really well with certain people and some that didn't with others. So, if somebody's looking for a coach, um what would be some maybe some some questions they would ask or some things they would want to look for in trying to find somebody that is a match for them? Yeah, that's first of all, I mean, it's a it's a great topic and and you want to shop around, you know, for lack of a better phrase. Um, you definitely want to talk to as many people as you can because you you want to find someone who's going to challenge you. You don't want someone who's going to agree with you and and and sort of plate you. You can use chat GPT for that, right? >> Like it'll agree with you plenty. Um, but but you want someone who's who's going to challenge you and push you out of your comfort zone. And so I think you want to talk to as many people as possible and talk to people that have worked with them. And you know, there are some core questions that you probably want to ask. And and and the main one is just, hey, can we just do a coaching session? like I just want to experience it cuz there there's some coaches who will kind of funnel you right to a sales discussion and um you know it's like with all people like sales becomes some a thing right and some some coaches are really good at it but it may not be what you need what you really need is like hey can we just take an hour I'll have the topic that's important to me and that's Mhm. >> And then, you know, hopefully you can get a you can get a good feel for whether they challenge you and push you. And if you you hang you hang up or you get off a Zoom, you're like, "Whoa, that was tough." Like that person just like, you know, almost made me cry. >> It's going to So, based on that, that kind of brings up an interesting point. So, what are some of the ideal uh coaching experiences you've had and what are some of the bad experiences you've had? Can you give us an example of each end of the spectrum? >> Yeah, the bad ones are that um a lot of my clients I I have corporate clients who so let's say I I come to agreement with like CTO and he's like, "Hey, I want you to coach five of my people." and they hand me someone that I don't have a I don't necessarily know or I haven't screened. So, this used to happen to me a lot more. Um, and I've come to find out later that they're like on their last leg, like they're on a pip. They're and and that the company was thinking about this as a rescue. And I'll tell you that for coaching, hiring a coach to rescue someone who is already a poor performer is a complete waste of money. 100% waste of money. Like, it's not going to happen. And I've I've gotten onto Zoom or onto Teams before and the person doesn't show up. Come to find out, 20 minutes later, they got fired. >> So, so those are those are the tough ones right there. the the amazing ones are are people who are already into personal development, right? So, so the the the winner the great the great sort of box top to the right the way I'm sort of doing it um >> is like someone who is already working on themsel. I don't have to convince them that, you know, that you need to, you know, read more books about, you know, personal professional development. I don't have to convince them to go buy a journal so that they can write out their thoughts and see all of the crazy thoughts going through their head. It's like they're already there, you know? Um, and then from there we can go a lot further, but there's a there's a bit of a of a perfect client and and there's somebody who's already working on themselves. What about those that are kind of in between that those that have been going through a lot of self-improvement or improving, trying to grow, but they kind of burned out. They're not like at the bottom end. They're not trying to walk away, but they're just spinning their wheels. they're not going anywhere or they've just kind of plateaued and it you get into like that hyper burnout tension where it's like you're hyperfocused on something but you're not going anywhere. >> Yeah. So, um there are a couple things around that. One is um so Rob alluded to this eat the frog concept which Brian Tracy wrote a book about. He's a he's a guy that kind of made it popular. He also Brian Tracy also has some other books where he talks about a keystone goal and the idea there is like you have all these goals but which one of them is going to make all the other ones easier, right? So, when you're spinning your wheels and you're getting up early and staying up late and working weekends and all that kind of stuff and you're not seeing progress, a lot of times you're doing all the work, but you're not doing the work. You're not doing the thing. And it can be hard to identify what that is, but you kind of need to pause and take and take a beat and kind of go of the things I should be doing. If I could only do one, like what's going to make everything else easier? So, that's one one piece of that. The second piece I'll add is a lot of times when we get when we get stuck, we we're it especially in the corporate space, it's because we're caring too much about stuff that's out of our control. And this was one of the things that drove my what I got really burned out um like 10 years ago and and I why wasn't I invited to that meeting? Don't they know I need to be there? You know, why did someone have that tone in their email? you know, why do I have to go and fix this? Like, it's sort of like caring too much about all the other stuff and especially stuff you don't control. That was a sure that was like a fast path to being unhappy. And that is part one. Uh, thank you for hanging out with us. Uh, don't worry, we have a part two coming. Andrew is uh it's a really good like it feels like a coaching session. This whole like this this interview feels a little bit like it is very u to me very calming, very like hey here's some cool things to think about. Here's some things that maybe uh you know your some blockers or things like that. So hopefully this is helping you as well. U we will have links as always we'll have links in the show notes. So reach out to him. He he offers a free coaching session. If you don't you're like what is this coaching thing about? Connect with him. give them a call, check it out, uh see how it goes because I will say personally, I've I've done some of these in the past and you will I don't think if you haven't done it, I don't think it's going to be what you expect it to be. It will probably be far better than you expected. Uh even if you find yourself uh not thinking that you're in a situation where you're going to be able to talk much or work with them, if you get a good coach, uh it is amazing what they can do for you and what they can they can take you to. And I definitely know a lot of people that will sing their praises of their coaches day in and day out and uh how they have turned stuff around. That being said, it is time for me to coach you to get on out of here and get back to your day. Go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time.
Transcript Segments
[music]
[music]
[music]
[music]
Hey, Andrew. How you doing?
>> Hey Rob, how are you?
>> Not too bad.
>> Hi, Michael.
>> How are you?
>> Good. How's it going?
>> Pretty good.
>> All right, let me Where put that? I just
had that up.
Okay.
Where are you guys?
>> Uh, I am actually s I'm in uh Porto,
Portugal.
>> Oh, nice.
>> Yes.
>> Been to been to Portugal. Not not Porto,
though.
>> This is my first.
>> So,
>> Oh, really? You just visiting?
>> Uh, well, I'm I just headed into Europe
about a month ago and started into a
digital nomad journey. So, we're been
here like two weeks and going to be here
for another couple of months before we
hop up and move on to the next spot.
>> Nice. Nice.
A buddy that's moving to Portugal. I
think uh Logos or something down the
southern
>> that should be nice.
>> Beautiful.
>> Yeah, it is. It's a great area.
And Michael is in Jackson, Tennessee.
All right.
>> And where are you at?
>> I'm outside Seattle.
>> Oh, okay.
>> Yeah.
>> So, all right. So, it's super early
there. It's what, 8?
>> It's 8, you know.
>> Yeah. First thing in the morning. All
right.
>> Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm a I'm an early
bird. I'm usually, you know, doing my
own kind of stuff in the mornings. You
guys are probably the same way. It's
like, you don't you don't mind getting
up super early when it's your own your
own thing. Yeah, that's true. Yeah,
that's the best time to be. That is the
most productive productive time. That's
for sure.
>> Totally. Like why would you why would
you waste it like on email or something,
right?
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> All right. So, um I guess just sort of
getting you into this a little bit. Um
so, we the the focus is our audience is
um developer entrepreneur kind of stuff.
are the whole thought is that those that
as you get into your true developers,
those that get in their journey are
usually entrepreneurial of some sort.
They're really problem solvers. They're
they usually have a side hustle or two
or three of them uh you know going to
consulting and things like that. So we
uh we do cover we try to like merge uh
you know bridge the gap between
conversations about like running and you
know main your core business things
versus technology and and definitely how
to uh leverage one to to help the other
things of that nature. Uh this season
our our season focus is um essentially
the the short of is getting unstuck. it
is uh finding ways to you know get the
ball moving forward and get forward
momentum.
>> Uh so we'll talk about you know where
people got stuck or where things can can
move forward. We'll see how it goes in
the conversation because typically we
let it just sort of go. We don't ask
specific questions. We uh we start it by
I do an in I do an introduction. Mike
introduces himself. We toss it to you to
introduce yourself and then 99 times out
of 100 it like the conversation just
goes from there. we dive in, you know,
usually follow up on something that
you've mentioned in your uh uh in your
introduction and then we just have a
nice uh you know, conversation there. It
runs total uh we'll be done within an
hour. Uh we typically do about two it
we'll split it into two episodes.
Typically they run about I don't know 20
25 minutes a piece something like that.
So
>> yeah, I was going to ask you about that.
I had a I have a a virtual assistant
that schedules stuff for me and I have a
hard stop at 9 my time. So is that
>> okay?
>> So I mean if if that's an issue then um
you know happy to I don't know if you I
mean if you guys if you guys want to do
more time another in in another time we
could we could do this another day. I
mean it's totally up to you.
>> We'll see how it goes. We should be able
to get it done. I've got a hard stop as
well so it should work well. we'll be
able to get you out of here uh with a
few minutes to spare so you can do bio
breaks and stuff like that. Refill your
coffee before you can get into the next
one.
>> Yeah.
>> Um we'll wrap it up at the end. We'll
we'll throw something. You just say,
"Hey, what's the best way for you to uh
for people to get a hold of you and
provide some links?" We'll put those in
the show notes
once we're done recording because we do
um we do both a video and an audio
version of this. The video is out on
YouTube. And so what we do is we wrap up
the audio and then we usually have we'll
have bonus material and we'll basically
come out of the audio and ask you like
maybe one you know one thing that you
recommend or something along those
lines. There'll be a little bit of bonus
uh you know for those listening or those
watching and then we'll uh wrap it up
and send you on your merry way.
>> Yeah. All right. Sounds great.
>> All right. Questions, comments, anything
like that before we get going?
>> No, I think we're good.
>> Okay. Uh then we will start out th
Oh uno.
Well hello and welcome back. We are
continuing our season. We are getting
ourselves moving forward. It's the
beginning of a new year and sometimes
that's a hard thing as you come out of
the prior year but that's what we're
focusing on for this season. Uh this
episode we are actually going to start a
new conversation and we will um give you
a little more about that soon. Uh this
is the building better developers
podcast also known as developer.
Actually, it's always backwards. It was
developer, also known as building better
developers because Alexa and those
ladies in the box. That being said, I
should introduce myself now. Robad, one
of the founders of developer, also the
founder of RB Consulting, where we help
you leverage technology to get your
business unstuck and moving forward and
uh look for a successful 2026. Good
things, bad things. Uh good thing is,
well, I'll start with the bad thing. Bad
thing is we had a slight uh health
emergency yesterday and uh it turned
into something being in a new town, a
new city and stuff like that. It turned
into a little actually new country, new
continent, a lot of things like that
turned in a little bit of a challenge.
Uh the good thing is is that even though
Apple Maps is not always exactly up
todate and steered me to a couple places
that didn't even exist anymore, I was
able to finally find all the places I
needed to. And the good thing is is like
public travel when you're in a big city
these days is really easy. Whether
you're an Uber or Bolt or whatever the
heck it you're using, uh, it's it's easy
and fast. So when you're like huffing
and puffing and sweating too hard, you
can hop in a car and get a cab on the
way home essentially. One guy that is
not going to be heading home anytime
soon because he's already there.
Michael, go ahead and introduce
yourself. Hey everyone, my name is Mike
Malage. I'm one of the co-founders of
Building Better Developers, often known
as developer. I'm also the founder of
Envision QA where we design and test
software that fits your workflow. That
way you can stop fighting your tools and
start to run your business. Uh good
thing, bad thing. Um start with the bad
thing. Um
it's just winter time. Tennessee,
wonderful weather. Uh it can be 70° one
day, freezing the next day. Has some of
that going on. Um which unfortunately
just makes it for a dreary season. Uh
good thing though, uh today's a nice
sunny day. Things are drying out again
and looks like it's going to turn out to
be a good week maybe. Although they are
talking about snow in the next two days,
so we'll see.
>> Uh a white Christmas just a month later
or so. And today we have speaking with
us Andrew. Andrew, go ahead and
introduce yourself.
>> Yeah. Hey guys, thanks for having me.
I'm Andrew Hingleman and I'm a certified
executive coach and founder of a company
called Priority One Group. We focus
mostly on executive coaching, one-on-one
coaching, team coaching, and training
with engineers. So, my background in the
corporate space was in running
engineering teams. Was a CTO for about
eight years at a global financial
services company. Um, so yeah, we uh we
focus on the human side. So leadership
skills, what you call soft skills, those
kinds of things that we all we all need
to get a little better at. Um, I'm going
to steal from Michael for for for the
the good bad here. The the bad in
Seattle is a lack of daylight. So it's
people talk about the rain. I'm going to
say it's not really the rain. It's not
seeing the sun for long stretches of
time and that's that that wears on you
over time. Um, good thing got a couple
trips coming up in the in the near
future. So, uh, this is the time of the
year where we go south as much as
possible. Probably, uh, make a couple
trips to Mexico if possible.
>> Excellent. Yes, I know. That was one of
the things years ago that made me leave
the Chicago area is it wasn't the cold.
It was just that I didn't see sunlight
for about eight months and it was just
not that did not work for my psyche or
my physique or anything else. I was like
time to I need some sun.
>> [laughter]
>> So, let's dive right in because
um what I want to like jump right into
like as an executive coach, I think this
is something that people um you
sometimes get a little confused about
like what coaches can do and when they
can come in and things like that. So,
you're talking people that are already
to some level successful. You know,
people would look at them and say, "Oh,
you're successful because you are an
executive or you're a leader or
something like that." So, what is one of
the common things that maybe the common
themes that would uh you know light a
fire under somebody at that level to
say, you know what, I need a I need to
get with a coach and see how I can get
moving.
>> Yeah, great question. Um first, um I
want to dispel a little bit of the
executive part of executive coach. In in
reality, it's just we don't have a
better modifier. We don't have a better
adjective. [clears throat]
um you know sometimes I'll say
leadership coach which is as confusing
you know so so in some ways it's sort of
like corporate coach um it can be anyone
at any level but but uh the main thing
really is that someone has something
going on like maybe they got kicked in
the teeth a little bit and and a project
went south really badly. Maybe they're
getting laid off. Maybe there's a merger
and you know they're redundant. So um
usually there's something right because
because you know the reality is you
don't need a coach if you are making
good progress you're happy with where
you are. Not everyone needs needs to
work with a coach. But if you have high
aspirations
or some some sort of event going on is
probably the the indicator where it's
it's a good time to get some
confidential, you know, uh another set
of eyeballs on things.
Does that mean that you tend is there
I'm trying to say how to phrase it, but
is it does it mean that there are
situations where just that extra set of
eyeballs where it's sort of like just
come in and do like a you know we'll
call it like a session or two or
something and get somebody to just sort
of point you in the right direction or
is it typically going to be something
that's a little more of here's the
direction and here's how we're going to
get you moving forward. So it's more of
an ongoing you know checking in kind of
a relationship.
>> It's usually more involved. So, a a
successful
coaching engagement is like you have
some very specific goals and you have
some things that make it hard to get
there and it's usually, you know, hidden
blocks, things, old habits that you
should have let go of already. Takes
time to get there, right? Cuz we're
really not that good at knowing what
we're good at and bad at and where we're
blocked.
>> So, you need feedback. So, so most of
the time we start off with some type of
like 360 at the very beginning because
that's super super powerful and and um
that's a great way to make sure that you
have a a a tie into what other people
are saying about you.
Oh, and that leads to a good point, too.
It's like do you I think some people are
like I need to get my house in order a
little bit before I actually have
somebody try and coach me. It's like I
need to be I need to be able to go play
the game before I can have somebody
coach me on how to do it. Is that
something that you know if there if
somebody's just like I don't even know
where to begin. Is that still something
that you guys can can help with or is
there something that they should it
helps to do a little prep work before
they walk into talking to a coach?
>> No, I don't I don't know that a bunch of
prep work is really a good use of your
time. Like you no matter what you're
going to come in kind of messy and
you're going to you're going to you're
going to think I just need to build
better relationships or I just need to
learn the business, right? cuz people
tell you that all the time.
>> Yep.
>> But the reality is just like, you know,
you need to open up and start, you know,
communicating more or, you know, it's
you're going to come in with something
either way, so you may as well just come
in messy, you know.
>> So, h how do you kind of find your find
the people that need coaching? Uh what
is your like ideal customer that would
come to you for coaching advice for
coaching help?
>> Yeah, it's a great question. Um
the the ideal really is someone who's
new in a role. So you you're vice
president of engineering, you change
jobs or you went and got a CTO CIO role
somewhere or something, right? and and
you got into that seat and now it's been
a month or two and you're like, "Wow,
what did I just step into, right? Or
this is really great and this is great,
but this is not and I'm going to have to
focus over here," you know? So, it's
usually some sort of event like uh like
a job change, massive um opportunity or
or something that makes you look at
things a little bit differently.
Okay. So if so so say I'm fall into one
of those roles and I come to you uh how
do we or how do you define the coaching
role with your customer like how do you
help them first identify okay they're
coming to you because there is an issue
that you know they've gone into a new
role they're struggling uh with a
problem. um what are some of the things
that your customers would expect from
you to kind of h how would you help
them? How would you start this process?
The reason I'm asking it this way is uh
for instance you know for entrepreneurs
starting their own business we have lots
of struggles lots of questions but how
do we know how to identify when to come
to a coach or look for coaching and what
to expect you know what would we get out
of the coaching if that makes if I'm
phrasing that right I'm trying to
compose this in a way that makes sense.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um if if we take a founder
for example, a lot of times it's you're
you know you're you're spending all of
your time on the idea. You're building
right and you're building you're
building you're building and then at
some point
oper the operational part kind of creeps
in. You're like we're doing this by hand
again, right? Like or like why are we
living in spreadsheets? th those kinds
of things creep in and you start to see
some issues. Some balls get dropped. The
guy who was, you know, brilliant at
writing code is also kind of a jerk,
right? So you so you wind up finding out
you have some brilliant jerks. Your
operational maturity is holding you
back. You know, there there's probably
some flaxs.
And and and what I like to do with
people is just kind of break it all down
and kind of say, "Look, for you, what do
you actually want?" Right? Do you just
want to get out? Do you just want a
quick as quick as possible exit?
Maybe it doesn't make sense to clean up
everything,
or is this your or is this your your
30-year plan? Then it's time to bring in
some operational maturity. Um,
but another answer to your question,
Michael, really is that it's going to
come down to the the person. So,
the thing that we have to remember is
some things are going to be easy for you
and some things are going to be hard for
you and they're going to be different
for someone else. And if you say why,
there's some sort of belief in there.
Like some people hate public speaking,
but for other people it's super easy and
natural like what's going on in there,
right? There's some sort of belief that
we want to uncover. And that's that's
the real value of of coaching.
>> Okay, that makes a lot of sense. And we
talk about a lot about the why. You
know, why are we building the companies
that we're building? You know, what is
it that the customers want? Always that
why. In your experience with coaching,
what are some of the most common
mistakes that you see people make that a
coach could help them correct course
quickly?
You know, because a lot of us as
business owners, we have blinders on,
you know, we get in our business and we
stop focusing on the business or vice
versa and we kind of get stuck. Um, what
are some tips or advice that you could
offer to say, "Hey, uh, you know, you
need to reset or you need a pause or
hey, go look for help from like a
coach."
>> Well, I think, you know, I'd be curious
to ask you guys this too. You know, in
in my experience, the most common area
where we get stuck is that comfort zone,
right? So if you're a technical person
and you start a business, you know, of
course you want to wake up early to
build and do and you know create create
the the new customer journey you dreamt
up and whatever it is and build and
produce and have something to show
people. You might not want to pay
attention to cash flow. you may not want
to pay attention to uh this person you
got on Upwork which is just draining
your bank account. Like those kind of
things that creep in are are probably
where people get held back the most
because at some point the thing you're
really good at
winds up kind of um taking over and can
become a bad thing. Right? So I'll give
you a really concrete example. I do an
emotional intelligence assessment with
pretty much everyone that I work with.
And for your typical engineer, problem
solving and reality testing are super
high.
Well, probably doesn't surprise you that
that a lot of times interpersonal
relationships
can be really low. So if you're super
super into problem solving,
you may not want to mess around with
people. And that can be the kind of
thing where like your comfort zone, your
strength, your superpowers is actually
depressing other skills that you need.
Similar to the comfort zone thing, it
can get in your way.
Yeah. We had uh early on in my career,
we had a pseudo joke that we had in a a
development team. we were building
software small company uh that you know
we could get a lot done if the customers
would just get out of the way. It was
one of those that was like you know we
were we had a product we were supporting
customers and that that was you know
that was a large portion of our our time
and we're like wow if they would just
let us work we could get some stuff done
and it was it was a little tongue and
cheek but there's also I think that is a
common challenge I think I I agree 100%.
I think the most the most most valuable
per way anybody can get themselves
moving forward and expand out of that is
that whole the whole idea of like eat
the frog every day is start with the
thing you don't want to do and get that
thing done and out of the way and one a
lot of times you find it's not as bad as
you thought it is and two at least now
you've gotten that out of the way and
for me like I love it because then it's
like that's my reward is I get to go do
the stuff I like because I got the stuff
done that I don't like
>> got that craft out of the way.
>> Yeah.
>> If somebody's thinking about co because
you you touched on a couple things about
um the person and being we'll call it,
you didn't say it, but I'll call it like
being coachable. And if you think of,
you know, famous coaches, there are some
that get along really well with certain
people and some that didn't with others.
So, if somebody's looking for a coach,
um what would be some maybe some some
questions they would ask or some things
they would want to look for in trying to
find somebody that is a match for them?
Yeah, that's first of all, I mean, it's
a it's a great topic and and you want to
shop around, you know, for lack of a
better phrase. Um, you definitely want
to talk to as many people as you can
because you you want to find someone
who's going to challenge you.
You don't want someone who's going to
agree with you and and and sort of plate
you. You can use chat GPT for that,
right?
>> Like it'll agree with you plenty.
Um,
but but you want someone who's who's
going to challenge you and push you out
of your comfort zone. And so I think you
want to talk to as many people as
possible and talk to people that have
worked with them.
And you know, there are some core
questions that you probably want to ask.
And and and the main one is just, hey,
can we just do a coaching session? like
I just want to experience it cuz there
there's some coaches who will kind of
funnel you right to a sales discussion
and um you know it's like with all
people like sales becomes some a thing
right and some some coaches are really
good at it but it may not be what you
need what you really need is like hey
can we just take an hour I'll have the
topic that's important to me and that's
Mhm.
>> And then, you know, hopefully you can
get a you can get a good feel for
whether they challenge you and push you.
And if you you hang you hang up or you
get off a Zoom, you're like, "Whoa, that
was tough."
Like that person just like, you know,
almost made me cry.
>> It's going to So, based on that, that
kind of brings up an interesting point.
So, what are some of the ideal uh
coaching experiences you've had and what
are some of the bad experiences you've
had? Can you give us an example of each
end of the spectrum?
>> Yeah, the bad ones are that um a lot of
my clients I I have corporate clients
who so let's say I I come to agreement
with like CTO and he's like, "Hey, I
want you to coach five of my people."
and they hand me someone that I don't
have a I don't necessarily know or I
haven't screened. So, this used to
happen to me a lot more. Um, and I've
come to find out later that they're like
on their last leg, like they're on a
pip. They're and and that the company
was thinking about this as a rescue.
And I'll tell you that for coaching,
hiring a coach to rescue someone who is
already a poor performer is a complete
waste of money. 100% waste of money.
Like, it's not going to happen. And I've
I've gotten onto Zoom or onto Teams
before and the person doesn't show up.
Come to find out, 20 minutes later, they
got fired.
>> So, so those are those are the tough
ones right there. the the amazing ones
are are people who are already into
personal development, right? So, so the
the the winner the great the great sort
of box top to the right the way I'm sort
of doing it um
>> is like someone who is already working
on themsel. I don't have to convince
them that, you know, that you need to,
you know, read more books about, you
know, personal professional development.
I don't have to convince them to go buy
a journal so that they can write out
their thoughts and see all of the crazy
thoughts going through their head. It's
like they're already there, you know?
Um, and then from there we can go a lot
further, but there's a there's a bit of
a of a perfect client and and there's
somebody who's already working on
themselves.
What about those that are kind of in
between that those that have been going
through a lot of self-improvement or
improving, trying to grow, but they kind
of burned out. They're not like at the
bottom end. They're not trying to walk
away, but they're just spinning their
wheels. they're not going anywhere or
they've just kind of plateaued and it
you get into like that hyper burnout
tension where it's like you're
hyperfocused on something but you're not
going anywhere.
>> Yeah. So, um
there are a couple things around that.
One is um so Rob alluded to this eat the
frog
concept which Brian Tracy wrote a book
about. He's a he's a guy that kind of
made it popular. He also Brian Tracy
also has some other books where he talks
about a keystone goal
and the idea there is like you have all
these goals but which one of them is
going to make all the other ones easier,
right?
So,
when you're spinning your wheels and
you're getting up early and staying up
late and working weekends and all that
kind of stuff and you're not seeing
progress,
a lot of times you're doing all the
work, but you're not doing the work.
You're not doing the thing. And it can
be hard to identify what that is, but
you kind of need to pause and take and
take a beat and kind of go
of the things I should be doing. If I
could only do one, like what's going to
make everything else easier?
So, that's one one piece of that. The
second piece I'll add is a lot of times
when we get when we get stuck, we we're
it especially in the corporate space,
it's because we're caring too much about
stuff that's out of our control.
And this was one of the things that
drove my what I got really burned out um
like 10 years ago and and I why wasn't I
invited to that meeting? Don't they know
I need to be there? You know, why did
someone have that tone in their email?
you know, why do I have to go and fix
this? Like, it's sort of like caring too
much about all the other stuff and
especially stuff you don't control.
That was a sure that was like a fast
path to being unhappy.
And that is part one. Uh, thank you for
hanging out with us. Uh, don't worry, we
have a part two coming. Andrew is uh
it's a really good like it feels like a
coaching session. This whole like this
this interview feels a little bit like
it is very u to me very calming, very
like hey here's some cool things to
think about. Here's some things that
maybe uh you know your some blockers or
things like that. So hopefully this is
helping you as well. U we will have
links as always we'll have links in the
show notes. So reach out to him. He he
offers a free coaching session. If you
don't you're like what is this coaching
thing about? Connect with him. give them
a call, check it out, uh see how it goes
because I will say personally, I've I've
done some of these in the past and you
will I don't think if you haven't done
it, I don't think it's going to be what
you expect it to be. It will probably be
far better than you expected. Uh even if
you find yourself uh not thinking that
you're in a situation where you're going
to be able to talk much or work with
them, if you get a good coach, uh it is
amazing what they can do for you and
what they can they can take you to. And
I definitely know a lot of people that
will sing their praises of their coaches
day in and day out and uh how they have
turned stuff around. That being said, it
is time for me to coach you to get on
out of here and get back to your day. Go
out there and have yourself a great day,
a great week, and we will talk to you
next time.