Detailed Notes
Feeling stuck doesn’t mean you’re failing—it usually means something underneath the work isn’t aligned.
In this episode of Building Better Developers, we explore how a getting unstuck mindset helps developers, tech leads, and engineering managers move forward when progress feels stalled.
You’ll learn why motivation alone isn’t enough, how beliefs quietly shape outcomes, and what it really takes to turn goals into consistent action. We also discuss scaling your role, letting go of work you love, building psychological safety around mistakes, and managing deadlines without constant fire drills.
If you’ve been busy but not advancing, this conversation will help you reset how you think about progress and execution.
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About Kim Miller-Hershon
Kim Miller-Hershon is an international business coach, corporate trainer, and speaker who helps leaders and entrepreneurs get unstuck by thinking differently and taking action faster. She specializes in leadership, communication, and time management and hosts the Unconventional Wisdom About Conventional Wisdom podcast.
Follow Kim Miller-Hershon Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimmhsf/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmillerhershon/ Website: https://kimmillerhershon.com/
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Key Takeaways
• Why alignment matters more than discipline • How a “juicy why” fuels real momentum • When letting go becomes necessary for growth • Why curiosity beats self-criticism • How Plan B thinking prevents deadline chaos
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Follow Building Better Developers
Website: https://develpreneur.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@develpreneur Facebook: https://facebook.com/Develpreneur X: https://x.com/develpreneur LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/develpreneur/
Chapters: 00:00 Getting unstuck and alignment 05:00 Beliefs, motivation, and momentum 10:00 Scaling, safety, and execution
Transcript Text
[music] [music] [music] [music] All right, let's see. There we go. >> Let drop that down a little bit. Hey, so Michael is usually co-hosting with me and he is not going to be here. So technically this is we're recording right now. Um so we'll do a little bit of a we have like a green room. We have a little bonus beforehand before we get into the call. Um basically so people can just sort of see behind the scenes what we're doing. And uh Michael may actually be able to join us sort of in flight. He's got a conflict uh that came up. Let me check real quick that I'm not seeing anything from him. And okay, so I'm not seeing anything right now. So, we'll see. He may bop in at some point, probably about halfway through. [snorts] Um [clears throat] let's see. So, the basics of this is it's very I think we talked about this before. It's very conversational. It is very much a I will introduce myself sort of kickoff. Um, we do a two-part takes about an hour. Uh, we end up splitting it into two parts. Basically, 20 25 minutes an episode plus stuff around it. And then we um we have an intro, we do a we do a I do an introduction. Uh we'll do an outro at the end. I'll do a a wrap it up. And then right before the wrap-up, throw it out to you for any, you know, links and things like that. And then we will have uh that will wrap up the audio. And then we'll come right into that from the as we wrap up the audio and we will do a video bonus that'll be sort of like a um probably a question along like what would be one good parting thought that you want to you know throw at our our audience and make maybe something that you just want to double down on during the call or you know while the rest of this or it may be something that as we're going through stuff you know something comes to mind because uh as you and I have done in the past we sort of wander in our conversations a little bit so it may get off track a little bit. Um, the audience is technical. Uh, there are some entry level but more like mid-level to senior level people that are uh developers, entrepreneur types that are doing side hustles and things of that nature. Um, our theme, our focus this season is forward momentum, getting unstuck. And, um, I want to throw those things at you so maybe you have those in mind as we're going through it all. Uh any questions or anything? >> Yep. >> Excellent. Then so I will I I forgot. I will introduce myself and I will throw it to you to introduce yourself because that always tends to be >> because it always starts the conversation really well. So I'm going to allow you to introduce yourself however you feel comfortable. And so I'll give my little three two one. Well hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season of looking at how to get unstuck, how to get forward momentum. This is developer podcast, building better developers. I am Rob Broadhead, one of the founders of developer, also the founder of RB Consulting, where we help you look at your technology and make sure that you take that reality check and uh you know, make sure you plan before you dive into one of those more expensive investments before it gets too expensive. Good thing and bad thing. A bad thing right now in my life is that uh all of my family is sitting in the middle of snowstorms of varying sorts. There's a couple that are still, I think, out of electricity, out of power after now a couple of days of it. Uh others that are just cold. Uh yes, they're going out a little bit and having some fun, but also it's just it's more than they wanted. More white, fluffy, very cold stuff than they wanted to have. The good thing is I'm not there I guess as I'm actually sitting in Portugal on the other side of halfway across the world and it is not as bad. Although we are getting like uh all kinds of neat little storm events over here too. It's just not the icy sort. More importantly though is while Michael's not here right now, I do have a guest today and we're going to have a conversation with Kim and I'm gonna let her go ahead and introduce herself. >> Hi everybody. It's so nice to meet you. I'm Kim Miller Hersan of Kim Miller Hersan Coaching and Consulting and I hopefully by the end of this podcast am going to be your favorite business coach because I specialize in helping people get unstuck. And my area of expertise are mindset, interpersonal communication skills and time management. And those are uh wow those are speaking those are a couple of key areas to start right into. I do want to throw out though um you also have a podcast do you not? >> I do. Um my podcast is called unconventional wisdom about conventional wisdom. You can find it on all of your favorite podcast platforms. And might I suggest that you look up a podcast that I did with Rob Broadhead. Uh a very very uh good episode. Uh yeah. So check that out. >> Yeah. So yeah, check that out. Um that's what I want to go right into from the from as a coach and then the whole unconventional wisdom about you know about wisdom is how does that I'm assuming that that somehow came out of or impacts your coaching style. So, what is something there that like particularly there's a lot of coaches out there. So, and we've one of the things we've talked to in the past is like what is something that you want to look for to distinguish the coach that's the best suited for you? >> Yeah. I I think I would say trust is the first thing, right? Like just you get on a call and how do you just vibe, right? Just how do [clears throat] you feel with the coach? And let me just say this. It's okay to feel a little uncomfortable because, you know, you want I think actually you kind of want to be a little uncomfortable because you want to move, right? >> Yeah. >> I think you can It just really depends on you. You can find somebody who you feel like is very similar to you. But you can also find somebody who you think is a bit different than you, right? To sort of get that contrast and challenge you, be able to see things in ways that you can't see it. Uh but most of all I think people get can get very concerned about well what are your certificates and what's your like technical background and for me I really think what you have to do is do they ask good questions are they going to help you move where you want to move and if the answer to those two things are Yes, you're good. >> Now, what got you into uh coaching? Have you did you grow out of you just like since a child you were coaching or what did you sort of grow into this? >> Yeah, Rob, that's such a funny question because I do often glibly answer that question. Listen, I've been coaching my entire life. I just figured out a way to get paid for it. Uh but from maybe a more sort of factual point of view, uh I got laid off >> and I had to really reinvent myself. I had kids in school. I wasn't mobile. It was actually in um the end of 2009. So I was working in engineer in engineering firms that supported designing hospitals, big office buildings, right? of commercial like really large commercial projects and the the crash happened in 2008 and so it really you know I lasted for almost actually 2 years after the crash which I thought was pretty spectacular but then when by the time I got laid off I was doing business development and marketing by the time I got laid off the market was just flooded with people who did what I did. And so, yeah. So, it's just really really reinventing myself. Honestly, >> that's interesting. I hadn't really thought of that before, but that is definitely that makes sense that sometimes you want to be the first one off the ship so you can like get on to the next one versus sticking around and having that, you know, we'll call it in quotes blessing of, you know, being able to last a few more years, but then now you're on the tail end of it and that's right. Everybody's gotten a head start. >> Yeah. Now, one of the things that um I think a lot of people have had this like that kick in the butt we'll say essentially when something happens when you get you get laid off and um you're like okay now I've got to reinvent myself and this is I think it's also very interesting to see the and hear about some of the stories where people even if they haven't been haven't been forced to reinvent themselves but they are inventing you know side hustle something like that where they say you know what I want to I want to grow in a different direction you for example, like you know, you've got a podcast, at some point you're just coaching, at some point you're like, hey, I want to do podcasting as well. But now, what what led you into deciding that, hey, coaching is a way to go? Was it was there, you know, was it one of these it was just like you knew it all along or was there something there was an aha moment or something like that? >> Yeah, I think it was two things honestly. Um, you know, we have just met, but imagine me in an engineering firm. Okay. probably not the best fit, right? Just personalitywise, right? I'm loud, I'm colorful, right? Like I have a big personality and it for business development and marketing, it was a great fit, but I was the only one I was a department of one in my firm, right? So, I spent a lot of time being pretty miserable and not doing a very good job of hiding it, right? So, I think I was uh not a great employee in the terms of like I did my job well, but I didn't tow the company line very well. Um, [clears throat] and I also I just didn't like the way people acted. I didn't like the fact that they couldn't make changes that they did a lot of things that I didn't like. What is interesting though to answer your question more directly is that engineers for the most part don't love business development, right? And they came from a mindset of if I just do a good job on this project, it will speak for itself, right? And then other people will want to engage our services. And in a and in a thriving economy, that some of that may in fact be true, but when you have a downturn in the economy, that is just not true. And so part of my role ended up being coaching engineers to do the business development, right? And what's so interesting about it and I think maybe this goes to sort of also like how I coach which is if I said Rob if you were one of my engineers and I said okay like we've got this thing you've got to develop this business right you you would be like I don't sell right so Kim that's great you go away I'm going to do my work I'm not interested so I started to get really clever Right? And I started to develop all of these ways of getting the engineers to take action on the things really that they needed, right? Because they all had billable hours that they had to meet and they had to bring in the projects. But I started to get really good at getting them to get out there without calling it business development to do the activities that they needed to do in order to bring in the business. So I when I got laid off, I asked myself, what is it that I like what am I good at, right? If I can't find a traditional job, like what am I like what? >> Just lost your mic. Oh yeah, >> there we go. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, so you know when we um they they started to get really good at business development, the engineers when I was thinking about okay, there were a lot of things about my job that I didn't love. But when I went back and looked at like, well, what are the parts that I really did love? That's what kept coming back was teaching people how really I mean, it's so interesting we're having this conversation because in a lot of ways it is teaching people how to get unstuck. It's to like they knew Listen, I wasn't trying to trick them. I mean, they needed to develop business because their jobs were on the line, right? >> Mhm. But the idea of selling or you know developing business was it was like a dirty word to them. So helping them kind of [clears throat] figure it out and move forward uh in ways that they could actually take action. And you know, you said there's a lot of coaches out there. And if I had to distinguish myself because really every good coach can you say I want to get here, right? Like my job is here. I want to get here or I want my business to get here. Frankly, I think that there's a lot of good coaches out there that can help you figure the plan out, right? Because listen, you know, you're not the first person who's ever done it, right? There's a lot of people before you that have done it. There's a lot of good models of success. I think where I am really different and where I excel is I think oftent times those plans don't consider you, who you are, how you operate, what parts you're good at, what parts you're reluctant to do, where you procrastinate, what your mind, what you believe about your ability to do it, all those things. So I think I am just very good at helping you customize things like you as an individual, how are you going to get there? And by the way, Rob, I will say that my belief and my experiences is that if you don't deal with your beliefs and your beliefs don't align with where you want to go, you will figure out a way to get right back to where you got alignment. >> That's a good point. I think we talk a lot about um about success in general uh particularly we talk about like projects and companies and even people is a having your why. It goes back to, you know, is it Simon Synynic, I think, is the one that does the, you know, finding your why. And it it really is such a over almost overly simplistic approach, but I think very key. Um, and so it's it it's it is a key to happiness at the end of the day. If you know what you're doing, like you said, if you're if it's where you're if you're aligned with that, you're going to grow to it. If you're not, then you're going to end up back where you were aligned to it. And one of the things that now particularly now as as people are trying to figure out how to work in the new environments and and things like that and and trying to figure out how to scale and and figure out how they're going to grow businesses sometimes as well. Um an interesting thought is so you've got these people you're coaching that are they've got a a set of skills, they've got a set of things they like likes and dislikes. How do you talk to them about scaling themselves when you're looking at particularly with the idea of likes and dislikes? Because I know some people everybody's like, I hate that. So that's the first thing they jettison. They're like, I want to like I want to grow far enough that I can jettison that. But then there's also some things that they like maybe that they, you know, they need to jettison as well. How do you you have like sort of a general rule of thumb of like how people should should take those into account when they're scaling themselves? >> All right. So, I want to actually go back because I think the answer first of all lies in exactly what you just said before you asked the question, which is how juicy is your why? Does it give you chill bumps? Because I got to tell you, if it doesn't, you're going to have an very difficult time getting through the things that you don't like. >> Right? So, you need a really juicy why? And you need to keep going back to it. What is it that we're creating here? Why are we doing this? What do we get when we get there? So, it's not woowoo. That's I think the thing that people misunderstand is they think envisioning success in the future is, you know, and sitting down and meditating on it or or doing a vision board or whatever sounds very woowoo. I got to tell you, however you do it, I don't care, right? Like do it, you know, in a Gant chart. It doesn't matter what it looks like. Do it in a spreadsheet. But your why has to be clear [clears throat] and so like juicy that it gives you chill bumps to get there. So that's number one because you've got to have something to hang on to because there's it's not going to your progress is not going to be linear and you're going to have to do things that you don't like to do, right? But I actually think that the more interesting part of this Rob is really the But I'm a developer. So I code, right? And now I've grown the business enough that I've got people who can code for me, but every time there's a problem, I jump back in and I code and I fix it. Right? Mhm. >> The the giving up what you love that I I think is almost the harder part, right? >> It's the how do I grow into a CEO and not a developer with a great idea, >> right? And >> honestly, and I'm not I am not pushing my services, but honestly, I think a lot of times having a coach help you through that because those are the hard things to see, right? >> Definitely. Yeah. I think those have been I mean, I've talked about that as well. those are the hardest things to grow is when you have to get rid of the or let go of the things that you actually enjoy doing to get to whatever your your bigger why is. Now, do you have situations where you have uh I want to figure out how to say it, but basically like people that you coach where you you talk to and you essentially say you're not the direction that you say you want to go is actually not the direction you want to go. for example, like you love I love the idea of having a big juicy Y that will just drive you through even the the you know the late nights and the all the crap that you really don't want to do, but you know that that's out there and that's your that is that carrot and you'll you'll take the stick all day long if you have to to get to that carrot. But then there's those situations where people get into I really want this and the why is because I want to be able to sit on a beach, you know, in 10 years or something like that and it's not where their why is not aligned with their stated goals. What do you do in that kind of situation? Especially from a coaching point of view. >> Mhm. Well, listen, uh for me it feels very it's very easy. You know, you have to be able to if you want other people to work for you and get to the goal so that you can go sit on the beach, it's got to be something that everybody can wrap their head around. And everybody just getting rich is not it, right? So at the end of the day, what I'm going to say to you is you you have to pay attention to the financials. So I am not saying let's just go all you know rogue here and just but I will tell you that my experience is that if you want to rally a team and rally clients, customers, consumers, whatever you're building, right? um around whatever whatever your product is or service, you have to the value has to be for the whoever you're making it for, right? Whoever you're doing it for. And if there is no value there except for you to make money, then you really need to realign what you and really like why is anybody going to want to work for you if all you want like they're like, "Oh yes, I want to work for Kim because I want to see her on that beach in 10 years." Right. [laughter] >> That's the team everybody needs. >> That's right. I think and if anybody you guys know how to reach me if you guys are there it's like I want to see Rob just retire young okay retire early I guess because young is but >> get know how to reach out business right give [laughter] him business because that's what we all need right >> that's right if you have extra bags of money just bring them along >> that's right you know so I I do think that having a why and having a value to people. And here is the thing, I do this with my team all the time, is that every team meeting we we meet as a team once a month altogether and I reiterate the why every time, right? And then we look at so what are the projects that we're doing that get us there right and you know what do you need what do you need help somebody uh actually one of the guests on my podcast said something really interesting recently and that was culture is what your employees do when nobody's looking. So if we connect that back to what you what you asked about, you know, sort of growing a team is that there's got to be value. I can think the other thing maybe the last thing I would say about this is that you as the leader have to walk the walk. In other words, you can't set out values and what you how you want everybody else to act in your company if you are not modeling those things. Right? And one of the things that comes up in in in tech with project managers and engineers all the time is um psychological safety to be able to say I made a mistake. Right. Mhm. >> Um, go ahead. Yeah. >> Oh, that's Yeah, I think that's like that's another great way to get another nice nice little segue. I I do want to like go I'll go into this segway. So So how is that with a part of the thing about a coach is is accountability and it is I think from a coach one of the things you would want is you're like you know you're paying this person to drive you. So you want them really driving you forward. But how do you manage the the ability to fail the safety of being able to say I didn't get that as part of that coaching is is so that you're you know finding that balance and how should somebody and I guess more of this is like what should somebody be looking for because there's going to be as you mentioned before there's going to be uncomfortable times >> and so what should they look for in those moments >> right listen you know talk about you know psychological safety you know sometimes What I like to say is listen, I'm not the principal, right? You don't get sent to the principal's office, right? Like I think the most important thing whether you're working with a coach or you're not working with a coach is to be curious. So I think the problem with how we look at mistakes often is that we feel like they are personal failures. And and so here's I'll give you a great example. I am working with somebody right now and we're working specifically on time management because his time man he is a partner and so his time management or lack of time management becomes it's a cascade effect right it becomes everybody else's problem right and [snorts] in this situation which you can you can align it also to to developers which is He happens to be an attorney in a litigation firm. There are lots of hard deadlines. Court is not interested in anything in your personal life. The deadline is the deadline, right? There's a lot of fire drills, right? So, he had something a deadline coming up and so we're like, great, let's it's 2 and 1/2 3 weeks out. Plenty of time to get everything done. We put together this kick butt plan, right? I had him check in with me. Um, and I mean, he met the deadline, but did not follow the plan completely. And it still ended up to be a fire drill in the end, right? So, you know, we did a debrief, right? We and we are like, okay, so what are the parts of this that went well, right? and we'll keep those parts and where did this fall apart and then we were able to identify ah okay so part I'll tell you like what because it is a really interesting thing is that it and which is very true for developers too because you don't do your work in a bubble which is that um some of his end product depended on other people's contribution, right? >> So, it wasn't just, you know, it's funny. It makes me think of like school projects, right? When we used to have to do those group projects in school, not one person ever said, "Oh, yeah, that was fun." Um, so, and that work was evenly distributed again from everybody. But that's I digress. So, what was interesting is that what we've what we figured out from that the first one that kind of didn't go as very well was that he's really good at asking for what he needs and and giving the deadline and so forth the first time and he'll send you a follow-up email. But after that, he's like, "I got nothing." Right? And so the the the person didn't get him what he needed on time, therefore, right, he didn't get the the thing done on time. And what we realized is he's got no plan B, >> right? He doesn't like confrontation. So his his experience of having to go to the person and say I need this feels really icky and challenging. So he didn't do so he doesn't do it right. So all that does is say ah okay interesting. So now we need to actually the next time we do this we need to make sure that we have a plan B. And here's the other thing which I think probably many coaches don't do but again Rob because I am really committed to making sure that you right whoever the you is right client you get the success we script these things okay how would you say that right what would you say and guess what it doesn't matter what I would say >> right What's your how can how can you say this and we script this in a way that you can actually execute on it? You may be a little uncomfortable about it, but you'll still do it, right? >> And so that's really the difference, right? Because it's all about action. Baby steps, baby steps, baby steps, right? >> Yes. Love that. That's one of our That's the whole thing about the four momentum ideas that sometimes just like you got like a step and a step and a step and the next thing you're you're moving and you're you know you're on your way. And that is where we're going to pause. Uh don't worry, we are not done with our conversation with Kim. We will come back next episode. We will continue on. And uh there's a lot of good stuff coming in part two as well. I know cuz I just finished talking to her in part two. So um be ready for that. Uh if you have any questions, comments, obviously there's going to be links in the show notes as always. Uh feel free to reach out with her. She's very accessible, great lady, uh great conversations, and uh you can definitely get her off track too if you want to talk about her background or anything like that. Uh she is very much a a great person to hang out with uh to talk to. And I think [clears throat] if you're thinking about a coach, this may be a really good one for you to talk to. That being said, we got to wrap this one up. Thank you for hanging out with us, giving us your time and your attention, and uh hopefully you can now give your time and attention to your project for the rest of the day. Go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. [music] >> [music]
Transcript Segments
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All right, let's see. There we go.
>> Let drop that down a little bit. Hey, so
Michael is usually co-hosting with me
and he is not going to be here. So
technically this is we're recording
right now. Um so we'll do a little bit
of a we have like a green room. We have
a little bonus beforehand before we get
into the call. Um basically so people
can just sort of see behind the scenes
what we're doing. And uh Michael may
actually be able to join us sort of in
flight. He's got a conflict uh that came
up. Let me check real quick that I'm not
seeing anything from him.
And
okay, so I'm not seeing anything right
now. So, we'll see. He may bop in at
some point, probably about halfway
through. [snorts] Um [clears throat]
let's see. So, the basics of this is
it's very I think we talked about this
before. It's very conversational. It is
very much a I will introduce myself sort
of kickoff. Um, we do a two-part takes
about an hour. Uh, we end up splitting
it into two parts. Basically, 20 25
minutes an episode plus stuff around it.
And then we um
we have an intro, we do a we do a I do
an introduction. Uh we'll do an outro at
the end. I'll do a a wrap it up. And
then right before the wrap-up, throw it
out to you for any, you know, links and
things like that. And then we will have
uh that will wrap up the audio. And then
we'll come right into that from the as
we wrap up the audio and we will do a
video bonus that'll be sort of like a um
probably a question along like what
would be one good parting thought that
you want to you know throw at our our
audience and make maybe something that
you just want to double down on during
the call or you know while the rest of
this or it may be something that as
we're going through stuff you know
something comes to mind because uh as
you and I have done in the past we sort
of wander in our conversations a little
bit so it may get off track a little
bit. Um, the audience is technical.
Uh, there are some entry level but more
like mid-level to senior level people
that are uh developers, entrepreneur
types that are doing side hustles and
things of that nature. Um, our theme,
our focus this season is forward
momentum, getting unstuck.
And, um, I want to throw those things at
you so maybe you have those in mind as
we're going through it all.
Uh any questions or anything?
>> Yep.
>> Excellent. Then so I will I I forgot. I
will introduce myself and I will throw
it to you to introduce yourself because
that always tends to be
>> because it always starts the
conversation really well. So I'm going
to allow you to introduce yourself
however you feel comfortable.
And so I'll give my little three two
one. Well hello and welcome back. We are
continuing our season of looking at how
to get unstuck, how to get forward
momentum. This is developer podcast,
building better developers. I am Rob
Broadhead, one of the founders of
developer, also the founder of RB
Consulting, where we help you look at
your technology and make sure that you
take that reality check and uh you know,
make sure you plan before you dive into
one of those more expensive investments
before it gets too expensive. Good thing
and bad thing. A bad thing right now in
my life is that uh all of my family is
sitting in the middle of snowstorms of
varying sorts. There's a couple that are
still, I think, out of electricity, out
of power after now a couple of days of
it. Uh others that are just cold. Uh
yes, they're going out a little bit and
having some fun, but also it's just it's
more than they wanted. More white,
fluffy, very cold stuff than they wanted
to have. The good thing is I'm not there
I guess as I'm actually sitting in
Portugal on the other side of halfway
across the world and it is not as bad.
Although we are getting like uh all
kinds of neat little storm events over
here too. It's just not the icy sort.
More importantly though is while
Michael's not here right now, I do have
a guest today and we're going to have a
conversation with Kim and I'm gonna let
her go ahead and introduce herself.
>> Hi everybody. It's so nice to meet you.
I'm Kim Miller Hersan of Kim Miller
Hersan Coaching and Consulting and I
hopefully by the end of this podcast am
going to be your favorite business coach
because I specialize in helping people
get unstuck.
And my area of expertise are mindset,
interpersonal communication skills and
time management.
And those are uh wow those are speaking
those are a couple of key areas to start
right into. I do want to throw out
though um you also have a podcast do you
not?
>> I do. Um my podcast is called
unconventional wisdom about conventional
wisdom. You can find it on all of your
favorite podcast platforms. And might I
suggest that you look up a podcast that
I did with Rob Broadhead. Uh a very very
uh good episode. Uh yeah. So check that
out.
>> Yeah. So yeah, check that out. Um that's
what I want to go right into from the
from as a coach and then the whole
unconventional wisdom about you know
about wisdom is how does that I'm
assuming that that somehow came out of
or impacts your coaching style. So, what
is something there that like
particularly there's a lot of coaches
out there. So, and we've one of the
things we've talked to in the past is
like what is something that you want to
look for to distinguish the coach that's
the best suited for you?
>> Yeah. I I think I would say trust is the
first thing, right? Like just you get on
a call and how do you just vibe, right?
Just how do [clears throat] you feel
with the coach? And let me just say
this. It's okay to feel a little
uncomfortable because,
you know, you want I think actually you
kind of want to be a little
uncomfortable because you want to move,
right?
>> Yeah.
>> I think
you can It just really depends on you.
You can find somebody who you feel like
is very similar to you. But you can also
find somebody who you think is a bit
different than you, right? To sort of
get that contrast and challenge you, be
able to see things in ways that you
can't see it. Uh but most of all
I think people get can get very
concerned about well what are your
certificates and what's your like
technical background and for me I really
think what you have to do is do they ask
good questions
are they going to help you move where
you want to move and if the answer to
those two things are Yes, you're good.
>> Now, what got you into uh coaching? Have
you did you grow out of you just like
since a child you were coaching or what
did you sort of grow into this?
>> Yeah, Rob, that's such a funny question
because I do often glibly answer that
question. Listen, I've been coaching my
entire life. I just figured out a way to
get paid for it. Uh but from maybe a
more sort of factual point of view, uh I
got laid off
>> and I had to really reinvent myself. I
had kids in school. I wasn't mobile.
It was actually in um the end of 2009.
So I was working in
engineer in engineering firms that
supported
designing
hospitals,
big office buildings, right? of
commercial like really large commercial
projects and the the crash happened in
2008
and so it really you know I lasted for
almost actually 2 years after the crash
which I thought was pretty spectacular
but then when by the time I got laid off
I was doing business development and
marketing by the time I got laid off the
market was just flooded with people who
did what I did. And so, yeah. So, it's
just really
really reinventing myself. Honestly,
>> that's interesting. I hadn't really
thought of that before, but that is
definitely that makes sense that
sometimes you want to be the first one
off the ship so you can like get on to
the next one versus sticking around and
having that, you know, we'll call it in
quotes blessing of, you know, being able
to last a few more years, but then now
you're on the tail end of it and that's
right. Everybody's gotten a head start.
>> Yeah.
Now, one of the things that um I think a
lot of people have had this like that
kick in the butt we'll say essentially
when something happens when you get you
get laid off and um you're like okay now
I've got to reinvent myself and this is
I think it's also very interesting to
see the and hear about some of the
stories where people even if they
haven't been haven't been forced to
reinvent themselves but they are
inventing you know side hustle something
like that where they say you know what I
want to I want to grow in a different
direction you for example, like you
know, you've got a podcast, at some
point you're just coaching, at some
point you're like, hey, I want to do
podcasting as well. But now, what what
led you into
deciding that, hey, coaching is a way to
go? Was it was there, you know, was it
one of these it was just like you knew
it all along or was there something
there was an aha moment or something
like that?
>> Yeah, I think it was two things
honestly. Um, you know, we have just
met, but imagine me in an engineering
firm. Okay.
probably not the best fit, right? Just
personalitywise, right? I'm loud, I'm
colorful, right? Like I have a big
personality
and it for business development and
marketing, it was a great fit, but I was
the only one I was a department of one
in my firm, right? So, I spent a lot of
time being pretty miserable and not
doing a very good job of hiding it,
right? So, I think I was uh not a great
employee in the terms of like I did my
job well, but I didn't tow the company
line very well. Um, [clears throat]
and
I also I just didn't like the way people
acted. I didn't like the fact that they
couldn't make changes that they did a
lot of things that I didn't like. What
is interesting though to answer your
question more directly is that engineers
for the most part don't love business
development, right? And they came from a
mindset of if I just do a good job on
this project,
it will speak for itself, right? And
then other people will want to engage
our services. And in a and in a thriving
economy, that some of that may in fact
be true, but when you have a downturn in
the economy, that is just not true. And
so part of my role ended up being
coaching
engineers to do the business
development, right? And what's so
interesting about it and I think maybe
this goes to sort of also like how I
coach which is if I said Rob if you were
one of my engineers and I said okay like
we've got this thing you've got to
develop this business right you you
would be like I don't sell right so Kim
that's great you go away I'm going to do
my work I'm not interested so I started
to get really clever
Right? And I started to develop all of
these ways of getting the engineers to
take action on the things really that
they needed, right? Because they all had
billable hours that they had to meet and
they had to bring in the projects. But I
started to get really good at getting
them to get out there without calling it
business development
to do the activities that they needed to
do in order to bring in the business. So
I when I got laid off, I asked myself,
what is it that I like what am I good
at, right? If I can't find a traditional
job, like what am I like what?
>> Just lost your mic.
Oh yeah,
>> there we go.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> So, so you know when we um
they they started to get really good at
business development, the engineers when
I was thinking about okay, there were a
lot of things about my job that I didn't
love. But when I went back and looked at
like, well, what are the parts that I
really did love?
That's what kept coming back was
teaching people how really I mean, it's
so interesting we're having this
conversation because in a lot of ways
it is teaching people how to get
unstuck. It's to like they knew Listen,
I wasn't trying to trick them. I mean,
they needed to develop business because
their jobs were on the line, right?
>> Mhm. But the idea of selling or you know
developing business was it was like a
dirty word to them. So helping them kind
of [clears throat] figure it out and
move forward uh in ways that they could
actually take action.
And you know, you said there's a lot of
coaches out there. And if I had to
distinguish myself because really every
good coach can you say I want to get
here, right? Like my job is here. I want
to get here or I want my business to get
here. Frankly, I think that there's a
lot of good coaches out there that can
help you figure the plan out, right?
Because listen, you know, you're not the
first person who's ever done it, right?
There's a lot of people before you that
have done it. There's a lot of good
models of success. I think where I am
really different and where I excel is I
think oftent times those plans don't
consider you, who you are, how you
operate, what parts you're good at, what
parts you're reluctant to do, where you
procrastinate,
what your mind, what you believe about
your ability to do it, all those things.
So I think I am just very good at
helping you customize things like you as
an individual, how are you going to get
there? And by the way, Rob, I will say
that my belief and my experiences is
that if you don't deal with your beliefs
and your beliefs don't
align with where you want to go, you
will figure out a way to get right back
to where you got alignment.
>> That's a good point. I think we talk a
lot about um about success in general uh
particularly we talk about like projects
and companies and even people is a
having your why. It goes back to, you
know, is it Simon Synynic, I think, is
the one that does the, you know, finding
your why. And it it really is such a
over almost overly simplistic approach,
but I think very key. Um, and so it's
it it's it is a key to happiness at the
end of the day. If you know what you're
doing, like you said, if you're if it's
where you're if you're aligned with
that, you're going to grow to it. If
you're not, then you're going to end up
back where you were aligned to it.
And one of the things that now
particularly now as as people are trying
to figure out how to work in the new
environments and and things like that
and and trying to figure out how to
scale and and figure out how they're
going to grow businesses sometimes as
well. Um an interesting thought is so
you've got these people you're coaching
that are they've got a a set of skills,
they've got a set of things they like
likes and dislikes.
How do you talk to them about scaling
themselves when you're looking at
particularly with the idea of likes and
dislikes? Because I know some people
everybody's like, I hate that. So that's
the first thing they jettison. They're
like, I want to like I want to grow far
enough that I can jettison that. But
then there's also some things that they
like maybe that they, you know, they
need to jettison as well. How do you you
have like sort of a general rule of
thumb of like how people should should
take those into account when they're
scaling themselves?
>> All right. So, I want to actually go
back because I think the answer first of
all lies in exactly what you just said
before you asked the question, which is
how juicy is your why? Does it give you
chill bumps? Because I got to tell you,
if it doesn't, you're going to have an
very difficult time getting through the
things that you don't like.
>> Right? So,
you need a really juicy why? And you
need to keep going back to it. What is
it that we're creating here? Why are we
doing this? What do we get when we get
there? So, it's not woowoo. That's I
think the thing that people
misunderstand
is they think
envisioning
success in the future is, you know, and
sitting down and meditating on it or or
doing a vision board or whatever sounds
very woowoo. I got to tell you, however
you do it, I don't care, right? Like do
it, you know, in a Gant chart. It
doesn't matter what it looks like. Do it
in a spreadsheet. But your why has to be
clear [clears throat]
and
so
like juicy that it gives you chill bumps
to get there. So that's number one
because you've got to have something to
hang on to because there's it's not
going to your progress is not going to
be linear and
you're going to have to do things that
you don't like to do, right?
But I actually think that the more
interesting part of this Rob is really
the But I'm a developer. So I code,
right? And now I've grown the business
enough that I've got people who can code
for me, but every time there's a
problem, I jump back in and I code and I
fix it. Right? Mhm.
>> The the giving up what you love
that I I think is almost the harder
part, right?
>> It's the how do I grow into a CEO and
not a developer with a great idea,
>> right? And
>> honestly,
and I'm not I am not pushing my
services, but honestly, I think a lot of
times having a coach
help you through that because those are
the hard things to see,
right?
>> Definitely. Yeah. I think those have
been I mean, I've talked about that as
well. those are the hardest things to
grow is when you have to get rid of the
or let go of the things that you
actually enjoy doing to get to whatever
your your bigger why is. Now, do you
have situations where you have uh I want
to figure out how to say it, but
basically like people that you coach
where you you talk to and you
essentially say
you're not the direction that you say
you want to go is actually not the
direction you want to go. for example,
like you love I love the idea of having
a big juicy Y that will just drive you
through even the the you know the late
nights and the all the crap that you
really don't want to do, but you know
that that's out there and that's your
that is that carrot and you'll you'll
take the stick all day long if you have
to to get to that carrot. But then
there's those situations where people
get into
I really want this and the why is
because I want to be able to sit on a
beach, you know, in 10 years or
something like that and it's not where
their why is not aligned with their
stated goals. What do you do in that
kind of situation? Especially from a
coaching point of view.
>> Mhm. Well, listen, uh for me it feels
very it's very easy. You know, you have
to
be able to if you want other people to
work for you and get to the goal so that
you can go sit on the beach, it's got to
be something that everybody can wrap
their head around. And everybody just
getting rich is not it, right? So at the
end of the day, what I'm going to say to
you is you you have to pay attention to
the financials. So I am not saying let's
just go all you know rogue here and just
but I will tell you that my experience
is that if you want to rally a team and
rally
clients, customers, consumers, whatever
you're building, right? um around
whatever whatever your product is or
service,
you have to the value has to be for
the
whoever you're making it for, right?
Whoever you're doing it for. And if
there is no value there except for you
to make money, then you really need to
realign what you and really like why is
anybody going to want to work for you if
all you want like they're like, "Oh yes,
I want to work for Kim because I want to
see her on that beach in 10 years."
Right. [laughter]
>> That's the team everybody needs.
>> That's right.
I think and if anybody you guys know how
to reach me if you guys are there it's
like I want to see Rob just retire young
okay retire early I guess because young
is but
>> get know how to reach out business right
give [laughter] him business because
that's what we all need right
>> that's right if you have extra bags of
money just bring them along
>> that's right you know so I I do think
that
having
a why and having a value
to people. And here is the thing, I do
this with my team all the time, is that
every team meeting we we meet as a team
once a month
altogether
and I reiterate the why
every time, right? And then we look at
so what are the projects that we're
doing that get us there right and you
know what do you need what do you need
help somebody uh actually one of the
guests on my podcast said something
really interesting recently and that was
culture
is what your employees do when nobody's
looking.
So if we connect that back to what you
what you asked about, you know, sort of
growing a team is that there's got to be
value. I can think the other thing maybe
the last thing I would say about this is
that you as the leader have to walk the
walk. In other words, you can't set out
values
and what you how you want everybody else
to act in your company if you are not
modeling
those things.
Right? And one of the things that comes
up in in in tech with project managers
and engineers all the time is um
psychological safety to be able to say I
made a mistake.
Right. Mhm.
>> Um, go ahead. Yeah.
>> Oh, that's Yeah, I think that's like
that's another great way to get another
nice nice little segue. I I do want to
like go I'll go into this segway. So So
how is that with a
part of the thing about a coach is is
accountability and it is I think from a
coach one of the things you would want
is you're like you know you're paying
this person to drive you. So you want
them really driving you forward. But how
do you manage the the ability to fail
the safety of being able to say I didn't
get that as part of that coaching is is
so that you're you know finding that
balance and how should somebody and I
guess more of this is like what should
somebody be looking for because there's
going to be as you mentioned before
there's going to be uncomfortable times
>> and so what should they look for in
those moments
>> right listen you know talk about you
know psychological safety you know
sometimes What I like to say is listen,
I'm not the principal, right? You don't
get sent to the principal's office,
right? Like I think the most important
thing whether you're working with a
coach or you're not working with a coach
is to be curious. So I think the problem
with how we look at mistakes often is
that we feel like they are personal
failures.
And and so here's I'll give you a great
example. I am working with somebody
right now and we're working specifically
on time management because his time man
he is a partner and so his time
management or lack of time management
becomes it's a cascade effect right it
becomes everybody else's problem right
and [snorts] in this situation which you
can you can align it also to to
developers which is He happens to be an
attorney in a litigation firm. There are
lots of hard deadlines. Court is not
interested in anything in your personal
life. The deadline is the deadline,
right? There's a lot of fire drills,
right? So, he had something a deadline
coming up and so we're like, great,
let's it's 2 and 1/2 3 weeks out. Plenty
of time to get everything done. We put
together this kick butt plan, right? I
had him check in with me.
Um, and I mean, he met the deadline, but
did not follow the plan completely. And
it still ended up to be a fire drill in
the end, right? So, you know,
we did a debrief, right? We and we are
like, okay, so what are the parts of
this that went well, right? and we'll
keep those parts and where did this fall
apart and then we were able to identify
ah okay so part I'll tell you like what
because it is a really interesting thing
is that
it and which is very true for developers
too because you don't do your work in a
bubble which is that um some of his end
product
depended on other people's
contribution, right?
>> So, it wasn't just, you know, it's
funny. It makes me think of like school
projects, right? When we used to have to
do those group projects in school, not
one person ever said, "Oh, yeah, that
was fun." Um, so, and that work was
evenly distributed again from everybody.
But that's I digress. So, what was
interesting is that what we've what we
figured out from that the first one that
kind of didn't go as very well was that
he's really good at asking for what he
needs and and giving the deadline and so
forth the first time and he'll send you
a follow-up email. But after that, he's
like, "I got nothing." Right? And so the
the the person didn't get him what he
needed on time, therefore, right, he
didn't get the the thing done on time.
And what we realized is he's got no plan
B,
>> right? He doesn't like confrontation.
So his his experience of having to go to
the person and say I need this feels
really icky and challenging. So he
didn't do so he doesn't do it right. So
all that does is say ah okay
interesting. So now we need to actually
the next time we do this we need to make
sure that we have a plan B. And here's
the other thing which I think probably
many coaches don't do but again Rob
because I am really committed to making
sure that you right whoever the you is
right client you get the success
we script these things okay how would
you say that right what would you say
and guess what it doesn't matter what I
would say
>> right What's your how can how can you
say this and we script this in a way
that you can actually execute on it? You
may be a little uncomfortable about it,
but you'll still do it, right?
>> And so that's really the difference,
right? Because it's all about action.
Baby steps, baby steps, baby steps,
right?
>> Yes. Love that. That's one of our That's
the whole thing about the four momentum
ideas that sometimes just like you got
like a step and a step and a step and
the next thing you're you're moving and
you're you know you're on your way.
And that is where we're going to pause.
Uh don't worry, we are not done with our
conversation with Kim. We will come back
next episode. We will continue on. And
uh there's a lot of good stuff coming in
part two as well. I know cuz I just
finished talking to her in part two. So
um be ready for that. Uh if you have any
questions, comments, obviously there's
going to be links in the show notes as
always. Uh feel free to reach out with
her. She's very accessible, great lady,
uh great conversations, and uh you can
definitely get her off track too if you
want to talk about her background or
anything like that. Uh she is very much
a a great person to hang out with uh to
talk to. And I think [clears throat]
if you're thinking about a coach, this
may be a really good one for you to talk
to.
That being said, we got to wrap this one
up. Thank you for hanging out with us,
giving us your time and your attention,
and uh hopefully you can now give your
time and attention to your project for
the rest of the day. Go out there and
have yourself a great day, a great week,
and we will talk to you next time.
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