Detailed Notes
In the "Building Better Businesses" season of the Building Better Developers podcast, Rob Broadhead and Michael Meloche provide strategic insights into scaling with contractors and employees. They discuss key factors involved in hiring, training, and effectively managing talent, highlighting the importance of mentorship, structured delegation, and patience. Their advice aims to help business leaders effectively scale operations, maximize talent, and achieve sustainable business growth by leveraging both internal and external teams.
Read more: https://develpreneur.com/scaling-with-contractors-and-employees-a-strategic-guide-to-business-growth/
*Episode Challenge: Delegating Tasks*
Listeners are encouraged to examine their daily tasks and identify activities that are repetitive or not leveraging their core strengths. Consider delegating these tasks to team members. Reflect on the necessary steps to successfully delegate and assess the potential positive impacts on your efficiency and overall business growth when scaling with contractors and employees.
*Stay Connected: Join the Develpreneur Community*
We invite you to join our community and share your coding journey with us. Whether you’re a seasoned developer or just starting, there’s always room to learn and grow together. Contact us at [email protected] with your questions, feedback, or suggestions for future episodes. Together, let’s continue exploring the exciting world of software development.
*Additional Resources*
* Using Offshore Teams and Resources – Interview With Tanika De Souza (https://develpreneur.com/using-offshore-teams-and-resources-interview-with-tanika-de-souza/) * Be A Better CEO – Interview with Donna Dube (https://develpreneur.com/be-a-better-ceo-interview-with-donna-dube/) * Remote Team Building (https://develpreneur.com/remote-team-building/) * Use Differing Perspectives To Be Better (https://develpreneur.com/use-differing-perspectives-to-be-better/)
*Follow-us on:*
* https://develpreneur.com/ * https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZOuFN_LhczvGyT2KSItH_g/featured * https://facebook.com/Develpreneur * https://twitter.com/develpreneur * http://linkedin.com/develpreneur
Transcript Text
[Music] I hit record I apologize too late because we were just doing a little inside baseball about like some of the brand stuff that we are so now you guys will never know what our brand is actually you better know what our brand is because that's our whole point is to like figure it out at some point uh B no I've told that before so I'm not going to B I was going to throw some bonus material out but it's somewhere else you can find it in the archives it's basically um you can go look for it actually and actually it goes back to the guy that was I wish I could think of his name right now didn't interview he was part of the Blue Man Group so if you look at probably Blue Man Group or improv or clown go search that out on develop andur and uh one of the things we talked about I think it may not have gotten on the recording uh because I know we talked about it but we we talked a long time afterwards um is that we used to have a we did I did an improv years ago one of the most interesting things and now I'm just going to tell the story screw it this what happens when we're like farther into a day uh one of the things like my favorite stories from all of this time is that you got to the end of this you go like week in and week out it's like a 12-week course kind of thing and when you get done all these you've been working with all these people doing improv for weeks and the LA one of the last things we did is that we would pick a person you went around the entire room and you picked somebody and then everybody would basically mimic that person they would take the stuff that they had learned about that person going through improv the previous 11 weeks or whatever it was and then they would basically be walking around to you like they they're pretending to be you and it is it it is an amazing exercise that tells you what your brand is in that situation so it was really cool to have people like oh that's how I'm known or and sometimes it was like really good because you're like cool I'm glad everybody remembered that and there's other stuff you're like crap I gotta take that out of my out of my you know out of my quiver that Arrow out of my quiver so there's your bonus material is your brand better be something this is like a marketing thing um your brand better be something that people know what your brand is like if I say Nike you know what Nike is I say Coke you know what Coke is I say Pepsi if I say Kleenex I mean there's those things there's these certain brands Amazon like Michael Jordan I mean there's certain things that you know the brand and so that's where you want to go so there you go there's your little bit of marketing stuff and hopefully we'll get there at some point all right topics for today so we've done the intro we've done the finan Cal management overcoming barriers elevator pitch so kind of to our simar conversation we had earlier one of the things with building better businesses that I think I don't know if we're quite ready for yet but it would be a good topic is scaling up your business and dealing with employees or contractors all right well this is gonna hurt I like that though I think and then the second one I had to that was or or could be kind of the topic for it but is leadership like leading or building your business through better leadership I think that's good especially with the with the context of employees and contractors and stuff like that is how do you like build that it actually goes to that first thing like how do you keep your brand and some of those kinds of thing culture so let's do that I think we'll start with like building your business and bringing in contractors employees and some of that kind of stuff because I can definitely talk to that and we talk about some of the struggles as well that we're going to have with all those so oh that's right I don't have to use this is so nice that like I can at least spend some while while my mouse charges before I have to do anything again so we're going to do our little three two that's my C I look okay in the camera there I might get some stuff straightened out get my mic just cuz we'll do it again three two one well hello and welcome back we are continuing our season of building better businesses we are actually though building better developers develop andur podcast I am Rob Broadhead one of the founders of develop andur and also a founder of RB Consulting where we are what they call Boutique Consulting we help you Leverage technology and just do your business better we we get in there we work with you to understand really how your business Works what is your secret sauce what is the recipe that is needed for you to leverage technology whether it's through simplification automation integration Innovation whether you're buying stuff off the shelf or building something custom or even having to build up a team or a culture within your organization to utilize and leverage technology we're there every step of the way to help you do that build a road map and let you just basically go on like you know take you kick you out of the nest and you get to fly away and not like fall and go Splat good things bad things perfect day for it it is again one of those that is good and a bad thing is it's snowed and I live in Nashville area where they don't deal with snow very well like you get like three Flakes and they're like boom school is like closed for a week I had people like the threat of snow had businesses closing down yesterday and it's not a bad snow so that's the cool thing is like I woke up it was a pretty white everywhere the bad thing is it like it disrupts my schedule I play Ice Hockey and they're canceling the ice hockey game tonight it's like how can you cancel a game on the ice because of snow and yet that's what they do so it's going to mess up my schedule but it was sort of cool that I was able to like I didn't have to commute in today so I got a lot more work done so it was a good thing there um I think that we'll do that and then I'll just go ahead and you know little ruminate about my good and bad stuff and pass it over to Michael to introduce himself thanks Ro hello everyone my name is Michael masas I'm one of the co-founders of develop preneur building better developers I'm also the founder of Invision QA where we help businesses and clinicians really analyze their business look at their processes look at their software and help them figure out if the software is working for them or if they are working for the software we essentially walk you through your processes help you analyze what you're doing streamline your processes basically enhance the business experience so that you spend less time working on the business or working in the business and you can actually work with your customers you know work on the business or I have that backwards as always uh good and bad similar to Rob it's snowed unlike Rob our roads didn't get better till about 4:00 this afternoon so I couldn't even leave my driveway for most of the day because we actually got ice first then snow so we had a nice little sheet of ice uh which made it fun walking up to the mailbox uh it was nice slippery slidy uh the good though is I have actually changed my routine over the last week I am almost completely off of caffeine and I'm starting to feel a lot better A lot less anxious and if you've listened to some of the past podcasts you can see why I had to start getting off of this it it's just if you take too many stimulants of any kind it is a bad thing so that's my good and bad well hopefully this is not too stimulating for you guys and gals we are going to talk this time about in basically it's building your business we're going to really talk about like employees and contractors it's like at some point you have to as a guy I work for years ago refer to it as you have to be able to scale yourself if you're a developer there's some point and it maybe if from the you know from the entrepreneur side it's something where you're maybe hiring somebody and whether it's an employee whether it's a contract you know Outsourcing a couple things or even in a company where now you're moving up and you effectively have employees that are you know people that report up to you that you have you know HR responsibilities and all that kind of stuff this is a little different from now a lot of times there will be early on in a career where somebody is a lead a team lead or something like that and they're more of a a leader or maybe a mentor or something like that but they're not really managing that person and it's a lot of companies it's referred to as like having HR responsibilities the things where you're like you're giving reviews and you're uh providing you know like you're giving input or possibly even giving them like raises and talking about rates and stuff like that all the things that we all care about and so there's this is like getting into more of that side where not just that you're being a mentor but it is that you're you're sort of now like somewhat responsible for this person's career as well so you're not just building a better developer in yourself part of it is that you need to be building a better whatever that person is and this is where it can become it really does change the game a little bit because it is not a simple thing and this is not just a developer issue it's not a simple thing to take the things that we know how to do intrinsically that we just like do it automatically and tell somebody else how to do it and that's part of what we're usually going to need to do when we're bringing on employees is there something that now we may look out and it's like hey we're going to hire somebody to do accounting we don't know accounting awesome you it's like I'm G to hire somebody to mow my yard I don't need to tell them how to mow yard they're going to mow the yard when we bring them in to expand our team usually we're going to have to tell them like what is this project what are the requirements we have to direct them in some way form or fashion and say hey I need you to do X this is the work I need you to do uh or for somebody I was talking to recently that was like this is one of the challenges I worked with a guy and they had we just had a like a blanket agreement of like they're going to pay me money and which is awesome for me to some extent but it was also like the the understanding was they're going to pay me money and I'm going to have an equal and equivalent amount of work and early on that was great they had tons of work but then as the work started to fall down the manager sort of come down and level the manager basically that was there suddenly had to take on it was more work for him because he was now like I got to make find enough stuff to keep Rob busy enough and he was still busy doing his stuff as well and that's some of the what we will run into because if you take a Contractor on if you take somebody just a straight up hourly and there's no you know agreement to a minimum number of hours or anything then it if you got five hours of work you give them five hours of work and they're done if you got 40 hours of work you give them 40 hours and they're done it's it's easy if there is that expectation expectation of like I'm bringing on a contractor but I need to provide them full-time work or I'm bringing on an employee so I am paying for them I need them working all the time because that is how the you know the everything works out then we're now stepping into something a little different because we're not just talking about there's there's other facets that I think we need to to take into account and I'll toss it over to Michael and sort of get some of his on these as well but I think one of the things is that you do have to look at developing that person because that's part of the value not only to them but to you because if you can go it's just like a professional sports team if you can get a rookie that turns into be a super super superstar and you had several years of that rookie developing into that where you were paying like you know the rookie prices then and maybe you even get a discount as they get into being the Superstar that's what you want to do in your business as well you want to bring all these you know you don't have to bring all the rookies in but you want to train people up so that you know from Jan if they work from you you know all through the year from January 1 to December 31st let's assume they're getting paid the same salary you're getting more value at them by the end of the year because you have help them grow so that's one of the things you want to do you also want to be able to look at ways to scale Yourself by pushing some of the stuff that you would do off to these people because now it's freeing you up to hopefully do you know build your business out and do some of these other things that are the things the company your organization needs to do to thrive uh but also it's going to allow them to stay busy and you get the most value out of them I'll stop there and let Michael go because I don't want to take all our time up so it's interesting so before I get into the like hiring people the the first thing that came to my mind as you were kind of walking through like the leading versus managing like the team leads versus a manager the HR roles it's a very interesting distinction because throughout our career we kind of wear many hats but as developers as you or even owners as you slowly build your business or you slowly build your skill sets up and you move up within companies you have to take on more responsibilties so you become a leader or a team lead and essentially you're helping to Mentor people or you're helping to train people helping people do their job and move the dial forward with managing and hiring people it gets a little more complicated uh the biggest distinction that I've run into is when I worked for a company and we hired on contractors the HR responsibility wasn't necessarily mine but I found that I spent more time managing the behavior of the contractors in their communication with the manager because a lot of times the contractors did not know how to handle office politics when dealing with full-time employees or full-time managers and that caused a lot of friction and when you move into the role of being a business owner or a manager you're actually hiring these people you're actually looking for talent to fill in gaps but a lot of the times for new managers especially is we wear a lot of hats so by the time you're you worked your way up through a company or you worked your way up in the business you have either bootstrapped most of the work yourself or you have come up with some policies or procedures to fill in the gaps to kind of segment your time well when you hire an employee you're going to hopefully carve out one of those segments and hand it off to the employee the problem there initially will be that you don't want to let go you are going to fight tooth and nail and I'm just going to do it nope I can do it better no you have to as not just a manager but as a leader as a mentor say look you're here for this position now the worst thing you could possibly do is hire that person stick them at desk and just have them read documentation well that is beneficial that does not quickly integrate them within the company within what it is you're doing you're essentially giving them a pass to waste time you are paying someone to just sit there and read through something that if you have them literally like Shadow you monitor what you're doing or just jump into it and kind of you know fire to the wheels you find out if they can one do the job two you find out hey do you understand this you you start to build that personality or co-relationship with your employee and you can figure out where their strengths and weakness are now the big key is if they do have a lot of weaknesses take a moment or take uh like one-on ones or even just little times to sit down with them and spend a little more of your knowledge don't take the knowledge you know you have spent a lot of time doing this you've learned this well you can't expect your employee day one to just know what your company does what your product does now they may know how to code so yes they can write code but they don't know your application they don't know your processes or procedures so spend it is expensive to you because you have so much going on if you had to hire someone it's because you've reached a maximum workload and you have to carve off time but you still need to anticipate that you are going to have to spend more time upfront to prepare that employee to get them where they need to be if you want them to be successful and if you really want your business to grow and not just hire monkeys to sit at the computer type in keys and just follow procedures you know AI will eventually eliminate that but the key here is we want people that are experienced that can do the job and help us help our business scale help it grow and hopefully you know help us improve our customer relationships and improve our products what do you think of that Rob I want there's a couple things you touched on there one of them I think the early in that is one of the things you have to think about and it's very similar to automation is looking at where you can take something and you can peel that off and you can not do it manually anymore me I think if you if you go in it with that kind of a an attitude I guess of hey I'm automating this by giving this to this employee then it's going to be now it's a little bit different because automation you're like okay it's going to just always do it the same way employee you're lucky if they always do it the same way there's going to be there's going to be variations but it is conceptually this the same kind of thing like I'm taking something that I don't need to spend the time it is not the best when we automate it it's not the best use of my time to walk through these 400 steps to do this process can I do it yes can I but not the best use of my time same thing with an employee so even though you might be able to do the job that you're asking them to do faster or even better you're looking at places where it is not that doesn't bring enough value to the the bottom line basically it's things like yeah I could go in and like for example let's say You've Got U you know some sort of a status report that's basically all you have that all you're doing is you're taking your notes that you wrote down and you're writing it into an electronic system you can do that and you'll be able to pull that across but if you found somebody that you could give them the notes and they would enter in the system for you then that's suddenly time that you get back and it may only be five minutes or 10 minutes but when you start looking at like developing stuff there are things where it's like hey I can build one screen and here's all the logic around it and there's 400 other screens to build well you can go build give those to somebody else to build those screens now they don't have to be identical and you really don't want them to be what you want and this is where you want to not only build a better developer as yourself but you also want your staff to be better developers scrum Masters whatever the heck it is you know even accountants office managers you name it you want your staff to get better because that's part of how you grow you're not going to grow by having a bunch of people that are just the same person day in and day out and they never change because then you always have to find new people what you want to do is you want to grow people and grow them into the positions that your company needs to for itself to grow and we'll talk more about that in a future episode like maybe the next one when we talk about leadership but I think this is something that you need to keep in mind is that you're doing this it is a it's an investment as Michael said it's going to cost you time and it's it can be frustrating it can be very daunting to sit there and go okay I know to need to explain this application that I've built over the last 10 years to somebody so they can start maintaining it well first you don't have to be perfect they don't have to like you're not going to fall off the face of the Earth hopefully and they're not going to have to just take it 100% from there you're there to work with them and the one other thing I want to do is like the sitting somebody down at a desk and just saying okay go read for a while it is very useful I found for myself and I think for a lot of people uh that I've worked with that I've brought in over the years testing is actually a pretty good way to learn something if you've got an application and you've got testing to do it's actually really useful you can take sometimes very senior developers and resources and say okay I need you to sit down and just like walk through test this application for me here even if it's just here's a script walk through it but usually it's like go test it don't give them much of a script and let them do it and they're going to break it they're going to give you all kinds of information back and they're going to learn that application the other thing is support it if you have a support desk or something like that it's a great way to bring people in because they're going to get questions they're going to get to know your customers they're going to understand the wise they're going to understand the problems they're understand the pain points and suddenly you've got somebody that really what they're probably also invested so maybe the first is they're invested because they know people they've got these relationships with people that they've talked to on you know or through email or communicated with so now they want to build a better product they know what the pain points are they're sort of like you know they're commiserating with them and now you have a very driven person to build your your product or improve your service thoughts on that yeah I have one additional thing to add to that so one of the other things I've encountered with new hires or even new teams is essentially um not scope creep but um basically we pivot too often so one of the problems you have is you you bring on a new team or a new employee give them a test and give them some time to absorve it give them some time to understand it to figure it out doesn't necessarily have to be a week or a month but don't go into a situation where okay today do this tomorrow do this oh wait every hour do this do this you're going to burn them out confuse the hell out of them frustrate them and they're going to walk out so please be very conscious of what tasks you do give the new hires so that they like Rob said testing and support are great ways to figure out the application the trick is so make sure you give them a workstation and an application that works the other thing that's very frustrating is when I've been handed a project and the code won't even compile so how the hell am I supposed to figure like I spent hours just looking at code and come to find out that someone forgot to include a file or someone accidentally um deleted a file and it's like so I'm trying to work on something that's already broken and you're telling me it works so just be very cautious of what tasks you do assign a new hire and make sure that you're giving them something that is both meaningful something that will help them learn the business learn what it is that you're all about what your product is and spend a little time with them don't just hire them and ignore them for a month you want to build that relationship you want to build include them within your business culture and the other thing is make sure you hand off make sure you give them the work and give them time to understand it don't fret over it and don't pull it back don't say I can do it better I can do it faster Let It Go one of the things Rob has taught me over the years is you have to let things go sometimes and this is one of the greatest examples of wanting to do that is you bring someone on you give them a task now I will say this do not give them a mission critical task as their first task you are just setting them up to fail or if they are a genius great maybe but never never give a new hire something that is Mission critical very highend deadline or maybe even your most uh important client something to do within a very short deadline if it's over months sure but please be very conscious of what tasks you do give your new employees or your new hire and make sure you do spend the time with them to make sure that they understand what they're doing I think that's very critical is that you want realize that one of the things you need to do is you need to when you're bringing somebody new in whether they're contractor whatever they are you need to make sure they succeed your goal should be that they s succeed so the early task should be you know like Michael said not critical not the kind of stuff that's like you know that the that you're expecting so even if they are an expert don't bring them in and just be like cool you're going to figure all this stuff out because that's not going to help and you're going to have some that you think as an expert and you're suddenly going to think they're a because they can't get it done but it's not it's because you didn't give them the opportunity to succeed which is the other part of what Michael's leaning towards it's like patience you have got to be patient and realize they're not going to pick it up immediately they're not going to do it as fast as you especially the first time they do it and they're going to make mistakes because there's going to be things that they don't realize and honestly look back at it as if they make mistakes it's probably because you made a mistake and did not communicate the details that you needed to beforehand and that is something that one of the best and worst things I did is the first actual employee I had was a son was one of my sons and so he was more than happy to say you didn't do this you didn't do this you didn't and he was right but it helped me as I was going through this stuff to be like oh yeah I handed this off but I didn't do this and I didn't add this part and I didn't provide this piece and it part of it was because of where he was and what I was used to but part of it was because I was not used to pulling that crap out of my head and sharing with somebody it's one of those things you're like well everybody knows it well you know what apparently not everybody because this person does not and you need to not you know it's not a personality flaw of theirs or that they're an idiot or something like that it's they don't know it's like we all have things we don't know and you know how you fix that is you tell them you let them know and then they're going to be more successful the next time around before you do the challenge darn add to that when you do have new hires depending upon your work culture if you're scrum agile whatever or if you're just a small team make sure you give time especially the first week or two or within the first month spend time in a safe space make sure that you can sit down with the employee and make sure that is a calm open conversation that like Rob said his son was able to tell him what he was doing wrong set up onein ones or open meetings where people can bounce ideas of where are things going good where are things going bad essentially a formal or an informal retrospective essentially in a one-on-one or maybe in a group setting but give them a chance to give you feedback don't just assume they're not doing their job maybe they need something from you but are afraid to ask that is I always hate that the phrase safe space in a sense because it's like it's loaded but it's true it's very much you have to I will say it I guess in more of the like the Gen X style of like people need to be they can't be afraid to fail you've got to allow the opportunity for failure because otherwise they're always going to be too scared to actually take any risks and then you end up with not what you want so really good point the challenge this week is going to be whether you need to hire somebody or not whether you need to bring somebody on or not is look at what you do over the next few days look at what you do what is your task list effectively and what would it mean for you to be able to what would be a piece that you could carve off and have somebody else do and do so in a way preferably if it's something where it's like this is not something that is you where you bring the most value something that is redundant or a little beneath you if you want to call call it that or however you want to look at it but basically something that this is not necessarily the best use of your time and then maybe it would be useful to find somebody that didn't cost as much to you to your company or anything else and have them do it it's much lice we we always talk about the 4-Hour Work week and doing like you know you can offshore stuff and Outsource stuff and all that kind of stuff it's that same kind of thing it's really is is in that Outsourcing mentality pick something that you would be able to that you should essentially you know push off or that you could and then just like spend a little time thinking about like what would it look like to hand that off to somebody else maybe you wrun a little note card it's like well I got to tell them this this and this or I got to teach them that because I think doing that in itself going through that exercise will help you if you have to do it it may also highlight something that you need to get rid of and get off your plate and it may even just help you better understand what it is that you do because now you're it's always more educational for you have to teach this to somebody else than it is for you to just like know it in your head just like I'm going to teach you right now actually I'm not you should already know this to send us an email shoot an email to info developer.com and let us know what is up what what do you like what don't you like what are some topics that you would like for us to cover whether it is in this this season of how do we build better businesses what are some things that we can do to make our businesses bigger better stronger if you've got some suggestions or some questions related to that we would love to hear it you can also leave us comments at anywhere at developer.com they got comment stuff everywhere we've got a contact us form you can hit us up at X develop andur we have stuff out there we are out on Facebook we got a develop andur Facebook page there's eventually some other stuff we may do but I'm not a socials guy so some point we'll get there for now let's go with those but wherever feel free to like just search for developer or this if you're listening to this 20 years from now you may find us in the new like whatever the social site is that being said we're going to wrap this one up because probably gone a little longer we need to but hey you got it for free so hopefully and hopefully you got more out of this than just free Hing you got a little bit of value out of this one go out there and have yourself a great day a great week and we will talk to you next time bonus material so you mentioned 4our work week and I forget the r are he was talking about one chapter in the book he was talking about the guy that worked for the magazine where he read some book about virtualization and he started hiring virtual assistants so one of the interesting things about what the topic we just talked about if you don't have employees and are looking to hire employees consider do some little Googling around look at what a virtual assistant could possibly bring you as a trial run before bringing on an employee sometimes just getting an assistant to help peel things off what you do every day is a very good way to help one figure out if you are a person that is willing to let go and two if you can work with the virtual assistant then you potentially are in a good very good place to hire someone on and be able to hand off Tas to someone else if the reason I say this is working with a virtual assistant can be challenging up front especially if you do overseas you may have to go through one or two but this is very good practice and possibly a very cheap way to figure out if you are in a place where you can hire someone and actually get benefits from the new employee that is yeah that's one of those that's the nice thing about the 4our work week one of the things that he brought up is like you should test this out you should like do it in bite-sized chunks basically like do it you know go decide you're going to spend 50 bucks or 100 bucks or a thousand bucks whatever it is um and and keep it self-contained so that you can learn how to do that because it is something that I think everybody thinks it's like oh I can do this this a piece of cake until you have to do it and it's like and every time like I've talked a lot lot of people a lot of different ways in different situations it's like it's amazing how often people are like I can do this over here but I can't do it over there you know it's like it's very different to do these things where it is um it's something that like you know very well and you know like inside and out the thing that you think would be the one that's like this is something I can pass off to somebody else turns out to be the hardest one you it turns out to be that's the one that like the thing that you really don't like like and maybe it is because you're spending all the time in your head going I don't like this I don't like this I don't like this but then you can tell them do this do this do this um yeah it's like practice makes I don't know if it makes perfect but practice makes you better at least and so take a look at something like that do like there's like you may go and like and it's actually a benefit anyways we've talked about this before it's a benefit to go to like upwork or Fiverr or one of those places not as a provider but as a uh a seller or a buyer basically or whatever it is as a customer and go like have people you know bid $5 to do or whatever you know to do whatever your project is or to do your work or go out and at upwork or or somebody like that and go hire somebody in because it's seeing it from the other side I think gives you much more information about how to T really to like win that process if we call it that and then it also allows you to like it forces you even to go through the process of like how do I how do I really do this how do I take this from my head and put it down essentially on paper so that it can now which is what we do when we automate too it's like how do I take those steps and limit you know uh walk through those and say Here's a you know why out these are the steps and then have something do those steps um we can do it I know we can because we've done it in all these other places it's just a little harder to do it but it's worth it to do it in real life I think that's enough on this one we we have gone a little bit we've had some bonus material on the front and the back end so hey you guys have been bonused out uh feel free to shoot us an email let us know if you've got any feedback leave comments you know leave us a review all that kind of good stuff we do read them eventually uh we get to them hopefully we get them right away but sometimes you know mail doesn't notify us properly that stuff has been you know that we've been communicated with so apologies technology is not always awesome go out there though and have yourself a great day maybe get away from your technology for a little bit now that you have had your your daily uh you know YouTube session with us good there and have a good one and we will talk to you next time [Music]
Transcript Segments
[Music]
I hit record I apologize too late
because we were just doing a little
inside baseball about like some of the
brand stuff that we are so now you guys
will never know what our brand is
actually you better know what our brand
is because that's our whole point is to
like figure it out at some
point
uh B no I've told that before so I'm not
going to B I was going to throw some
bonus material out but it's somewhere
else you can find it in the archives
it's basically
um you can go look for it actually and
actually it goes back to the guy that
was I wish I could think of his name
right now didn't interview he was part
of the Blue Man Group so if you look at
probably Blue Man Group or improv or
clown go search that out on develop
andur and uh one of the things we talked
about I think it may not have gotten on
the recording uh because I know we
talked about it but we we talked a long
time afterwards
um is that we used to have a we did I
did an improv years ago one of the most
interesting things and now I'm just
going to tell the story screw
it this what happens when we're like
farther into a day uh one of the things
like my favorite stories from all of
this time is that you got to the end of
this you go like week in and week out
it's like a 12-week course kind of thing
and when you get done all these you've
been working with all these people doing
improv for weeks and the LA one of the
last things we did is that we would pick
a person you went around the entire room
and you picked somebody and then
everybody would basically mimic that
person they would take the stuff that
they had learned about that person going
through improv the previous 11 weeks or
whatever it was and then they would
basically be walking around to you like
they they're pretending to be you and it
is it it is an amazing exercise that
tells you what your brand is in that
situation so it was really cool to have
people like oh that's how I'm known or
and sometimes it was like really good
because you're like cool I'm glad
everybody remembered that and there's
other stuff you're like crap I gotta
take that out of my out of my you know
out of my quiver that Arrow out of my
quiver so there's your bonus material is
your brand better be something this is
like a marketing thing um your brand
better be something that people know
what your brand is like if I say Nike
you know what Nike is I say Coke you
know what Coke is I say Pepsi if I say
Kleenex I mean there's those things
there's these certain brands Amazon like
Michael Jordan I mean there's certain
things that you know the brand and so
that's where you want to go so there you
go there's your little bit of marketing
stuff and hopefully we'll get there at
some point all right topics for today so
we've done the intro we've done the
finan Cal management overcoming barriers
elevator pitch
so kind of to our simar conversation we
had earlier one of
the things with building better
businesses that I think I don't know if
we're quite ready for yet but it would
be a good topic is scaling up your
business and dealing with employees or
contractors all
right well this is gonna
hurt I like that though I
think and then the second one I had to
that was or or could be kind of the
topic for it but is leadership like
leading or building your business
through better
leadership I think that's good
especially with
the with the context of employees and
contractors and stuff like that is how
do you like build that it actually goes
to that first thing like how do you keep
your brand and some of those kinds of
thing culture so let's do that I think
we'll start with like building your
business and bringing in contractors
employees and some of that kind of stuff
because I can definitely talk to that
and we talk about some of the struggles
as well that we're going to have with
all those so oh that's right I don't
have to use this is so nice that like I
can at least spend some while while my
mouse charges before I have to do
anything again so we're going to do our
little three two that's my C I look okay
in the camera there I might get some
stuff straightened out get my
mic just cuz we'll do it again three two
one well hello and welcome back we are
continuing our season of building better
businesses we are actually though
building better developers develop andur
podcast I am Rob Broadhead one of the
founders of develop andur and also a
founder of RB Consulting where we are
what they call Boutique Consulting we
help you Leverage technology and just do
your business better we we get in there
we work with you to understand really
how your business Works what is your
secret sauce what is the recipe that is
needed for you to leverage technology
whether it's through simplification
automation integration Innovation
whether you're buying stuff off the
shelf or building something custom or
even having to build up a team or a
culture within your organization to
utilize and leverage technology we're
there every step of the way to help you
do that build a road map and let you
just basically go on like you know take
you kick you out of the nest and you get
to fly away and not like fall and go
Splat good things bad
things perfect day for it it is again
one of those that is good and a bad
thing is it's snowed and I live in
Nashville area where they don't deal
with snow very well like you get like
three Flakes and they're like boom
school is like closed for a week I had
people like the threat of snow had
businesses closing down yesterday and
it's not a bad snow so that's the cool
thing is like I woke up it was a pretty
white everywhere the bad thing is it
like it disrupts my schedule I play Ice
Hockey and they're canceling the ice
hockey game tonight it's like how can
you cancel a game on the ice because of
snow and yet that's what they do so it's
going to mess up my schedule but it was
sort of cool that I was able to like I
didn't have to commute in today so I got
a lot more work done so it was a good
thing there um I think that we'll do
that and then I'll just go ahead and you
know little ruminate about my good and
bad stuff and pass it over to Michael to
introduce himself thanks Ro hello
everyone my name is Michael masas I'm
one of the co-founders of develop
preneur building better developers I'm
also the founder of Invision QA where we
help businesses and
clinicians really analyze their business
look at their processes look at their
software and help them figure out if the
software is working for them or if they
are working for the software we
essentially walk you through your
processes help you analyze what you're
doing streamline your processes
basically enhance the business
experience so that you spend less time
working on the business or working in
the business and you can actually work
with your customers you know work on the
business or I have that backwards as
always
uh good and bad similar to Rob it's
snowed unlike Rob our roads didn't get
better till about 4:00 this afternoon so
I couldn't even leave my driveway for
most of the day because we actually got
ice first then snow so we had a nice
little sheet of ice uh which made it fun
walking up to the mailbox uh it was nice
slippery
slidy uh the good though is I have
actually changed my routine over the
last week I am almost completely off of
caffeine and I'm starting to feel a lot
better A lot less anxious and if you've
listened to some of the past podcasts
you can see
why I had to start getting off of this
it it's
just if you take too many stimulants of
any kind it is a bad thing so that's my
good and bad well hopefully this is not
too stimulating for you guys and gals we
are going to talk this time about in
basically it's building your business
we're going to really talk about like
employees and contractors it's like at
some point you have to as a guy I work
for years ago refer to it as you have to
be able to scale yourself if you're a
developer there's some point and it
maybe if from the you know from the
entrepreneur side it's something where
you're maybe hiring somebody and whether
it's an employee whether it's a contract
you know Outsourcing a couple things or
even in a company where now you're
moving up and you effectively have
employees that are you know people that
report up to you that you have you know
HR responsibilities and all that kind of
stuff this is a little different from
now a lot of times there will be early
on in a career where somebody is a lead
a team lead or something like that and
they're more of a a leader or maybe a
mentor or something like that but
they're not really managing that person
and it's a lot of companies it's
referred to as like having HR
responsibilities the things where you're
like you're giving reviews and you're uh
providing you know like you're giving
input or possibly even giving them like
raises and talking about rates and stuff
like that all the things that we all
care
about and so there's this is like
getting into more of that side where not
just that you're being a mentor but it
is that you're you're sort of now like
somewhat responsible for this person's
career as well so you're not just
building a better developer in
yourself part of it is that you need to
be building a better whatever that
person is and this is where it can
become it really does change the game a
little bit because it is not a simple
thing and this is not just a developer
issue it's not a simple thing to take
the things that we know how to do
intrinsically that we just like do it
automatically and tell somebody else how
to do it and that's part of what we're
usually going to need to do when we're
bringing on employees is there something
that now we may look out and it's like
hey we're going to hire somebody to do
accounting we don't know accounting
awesome you it's like I'm G to hire
somebody to mow my yard I don't need to
tell them how to mow yard they're going
to mow the yard when we bring them in to
expand our team usually we're going to
have to tell them like what is this
project what are the requirements we
have to direct them in some way form or
fashion and say hey I need you to do X
this is the work I need you to do uh or
for somebody I was talking to recently
that was like this is one of the
challenges I worked with a guy and they
had we just had a like a blanket
agreement of like they're going to pay
me money and which is awesome for me to
some extent but it was also like the the
understanding was they're going to pay
me money and I'm going to have an equal
and equivalent amount of work and early
on that was great they had tons of work
but then as the work started to fall
down the manager sort of come down and
level the manager basically that was
there suddenly had to take on it was
more work for him because he was now
like I got to make find enough stuff to
keep Rob busy enough and he was still
busy doing his stuff as well and that's
some of the what we will run into
because if you take a Contractor on if
you take somebody just a straight up
hourly and there's no you know agreement
to a minimum number of hours or anything
then it if you got five hours of work
you give them five hours of work and
they're done if you got 40 hours of work
you give them 40 hours and they're done
it's it's easy
if there is that expectation expectation
of like I'm bringing on a contractor but
I need to provide them full-time work or
I'm bringing on an employee so I am
paying for them I need them working all
the time because that is how the you
know the everything works out then we're
now stepping into something a little
different because we're not just talking
about there's there's other facets that
I think we need to to take into account
and I'll toss it over to Michael and
sort of get some of his on these as well
but I think one of the things is that
you do have to look at developing that
person because that's part of the value
not only to them but to you because if
you can go it's just like a professional
sports team if you can get a rookie that
turns into be a super super superstar
and you had several years of that rookie
developing into that where you were
paying like you know the rookie prices
then and maybe you even get a discount
as they get into being the Superstar
that's what you want to do in your
business as well you want to bring all
these you know you don't have to bring
all the rookies in but you want to train
people up so that you know from Jan if
they work from you you know all through
the year from January 1 to December 31st
let's assume they're getting paid the
same salary you're getting more value at
them by the end of the year because you
have help them grow so that's one of the
things you want to do you also want to
be able to look at ways to scale
Yourself by pushing some of the stuff
that you would do off to these people
because now it's freeing you up to
hopefully do you know build your
business out and do some of these other
things that are the things the company
your organization needs to do to thrive
uh but also it's going to allow them to
stay busy and you get the most value out
of them I'll stop there and let Michael
go because I don't want to take all our
time up so it's interesting so before I
get into the like hiring people the the
first thing that came to my mind as you
were kind of walking through like the
leading versus managing like the team
leads versus a manager the HR
roles it's a very interesting
distinction because throughout our
career we kind of wear many hats but as
developers as you or even owners as you
slowly build your business or you slowly
build your skill sets up and you move up
within companies you have to take on
more responsibilties so you become a
leader or a team lead and essentially
you're helping to Mentor people or
you're helping to train people helping
people do their job and move the dial
forward with
managing and hiring people it gets a
little more complicated uh the
biggest distinction that I've run into
is when I worked for a company and we
hired on
contractors the HR responsibility wasn't
necessarily mine but I found that I
spent more time managing the behavior of
the contractors in their communication
with the manager because a lot of times
the contractors did not know how to
handle office politics when dealing with
full-time employees or full-time
managers and that caused a lot of
friction and when you move into the role
of being a business owner or a
manager you're actually hiring these
people you're actually looking for
talent to fill in gaps but a lot of the
times for new managers especially is we
wear a lot of hats so by the time you're
you worked your way up through a company
or you worked your way up in the
business you have either bootstrapped
most of the work yourself or you have
come up with some policies or procedures
to fill in the gaps to kind of segment
your time well when you hire an employee
you're going to hopefully carve out one
of those segments and hand it off to the
employee the problem there initially
will be that you don't want to let go
you are going to fight tooth and nail
and I'm just going to do it nope I can
do it better no you have to as not just
a manager but as a leader as a mentor
say look you're here for this position
now the worst thing you could possibly
do is hire that person stick them at
desk and just have them read
documentation well that is beneficial
that does not quickly integrate them
within the company within what it is
you're doing you're essentially giving
them a pass to waste time you are paying
someone to just sit there and read
through something that if you have them
literally like Shadow you monitor what
you're doing or just jump into it and
kind of you know fire to the wheels you
find out if they can one do the job
two you find out hey do you understand
this you you start to build that
personality or co-relationship with your
employee and you can figure out where
their strengths and weakness are now the
big key is if they do have a lot of
weaknesses take a moment or take uh like
one-on ones or even just little times to
sit down with them and spend a little
more of your knowledge don't take the
knowledge you know you have spent a lot
of time doing this you've learned this
well you can't expect your employee day
one to just know what your company does
what your product does now they may know
how to code so yes they can write code
but they don't know your application
they don't know your processes or
procedures so spend it is expensive to
you because you have so much going on if
you had to hire someone it's because
you've reached a maximum workload and
you have to carve off time but you still
need to anticipate that you are going to
have to spend more time upfront to
prepare that employee to get them where
they need to be if you want them to be
successful and if you really want your
business to grow and not just hire
monkeys to sit at the computer type in
keys and just follow procedures you know
AI will eventually eliminate that but
the key here is we want people that are
experienced that can do the job and help
us help our business scale help it grow
and hopefully you know help us improve
our customer relationships and improve
our products what do you think of that
Rob I want there's a couple things you
touched on there one of them I think the
early in that is one of the things you
have to think about and it's very
similar to automation is looking at
where you can take something and you can
peel that off and you can not do it
manually anymore me I think if you if
you go in it with that kind of a an
attitude I guess of hey I'm automating
this by giving this to this employee
then it's going to be now it's a little
bit different because automation you're
like okay it's going to just always do
it the same way employee you're lucky if
they always do it the same way there's
going to be there's going to be
variations but it is conceptually this
the same kind of thing like I'm taking
something that I don't need to spend the
time it is not the best when we automate
it it's not the best use of my time to
walk through these 400 steps to do this
process can I do it yes can I but not
the best use of my time same thing with
an employee so even though you might be
able to do the job that you're asking
them to do faster or even
better you're looking at places where it
is not that doesn't bring enough value
to the the bottom line basically it's
things like yeah I could go in and like
for example let's say You've Got U you
know some sort of a status report that's
basically all you have that all you're
doing is you're taking your notes that
you wrote down and you're writing it
into an electronic
system you can do that and you'll be
able to pull that across but if you
found somebody that you could give them
the notes and they would enter in the
system for you then that's suddenly time
that you get back and it may only be
five minutes or 10 minutes but when you
start looking at like developing stuff
there are things where it's like hey I
can build one screen and here's all the
logic around it and there's 400 other
screens to build well you can go build
give those to somebody else to build
those screens now they don't have to be
identical and you really don't want them
to be what you want and this is where
you want to not only build a better
developer as yourself but you also want
your staff to be better developers scrum
Masters whatever the heck it is you know
even accountants office managers you
name it you want your staff to get
better because that's part of how you
grow you're not going to grow by having
a bunch of people that are just the same
person day in and day out and they never
change because then you always have to
find new people what you want to do is
you want to grow people and grow them
into the positions that your company
needs to for itself to grow and we'll
talk more about that in a future episode
like maybe the next one when we talk
about
leadership but I think this is something
that you need to keep in mind is that
you're doing this it is a it's an
investment as Michael said it's going to
cost you time and it's it can be
frustrating it can be very daunting to
sit there and go okay I know to need to
explain this application that I've built
over the last 10 years to somebody so
they can start maintaining it well first
you don't have to be perfect they don't
have to like you're not going to fall
off the face of the Earth hopefully and
they're not going to have to just take
it 100% from there you're there to work
with them and the one other thing I want
to do is like the sitting somebody down
at a desk and just saying okay go read
for a while it is very useful I found
for myself and I think for a lot of
people uh that I've worked with that
I've brought in over the years testing
is actually a pretty good way to learn
something if you've got an application
and you've got testing to do it's
actually really useful you can take
sometimes very senior developers and
resources and say okay I need you to sit
down and just like walk through test
this application for me here even if
it's just here's a script walk through
it but usually it's like go test it
don't give them much of a script and let
them do it and they're going to break it
they're going to give you all kinds of
information back and they're going to
learn that application the other thing
is support it if you have a support desk
or something like that it's a great way
to bring people in because they're going
to get questions they're going to get to
know your customers they're going to
understand the wise they're going to
understand the problems they're
understand the pain points and suddenly
you've got somebody that really what
they're probably also invested so maybe
the first is they're invested because
they know people they've got these
relationships with people that they've
talked to on you know or through email
or communicated with so now they want to
build a better product they know what
the pain points are they're sort of like
you know they're commiserating with them
and now you have a very driven person to
build your your product or improve your
service thoughts on
that yeah I have one additional thing to
add to that so one of the other things
I've encountered with new hires or even
new teams
is
essentially um not scope creep but
um basically we pivot too often so one
of the problems you have is you you
bring on a new team or a new
employee give them a test and give them
some time to absorve it give them some
time to understand it to figure it out
doesn't necessarily have to be a week or
a month but don't go into a situation
where okay today do this tomorrow do
this oh wait every hour do this do this
you're going to burn them out confuse
the hell out of them frustrate them and
they're going to walk out so please be
very conscious of what tasks you do give
the new hires so that they like Rob said
testing and support are great ways to
figure out the application the trick is
so make sure you give them a workstation
and an application that works the other
thing that's very frustrating is when
I've been handed a project and the code
won't even compile so how the hell am I
supposed to figure like I spent hours
just looking at code and come to find
out that someone forgot to include a
file or someone accidentally um deleted
a file and it's like so I'm trying to
work on something that's already broken
and you're telling me it works so just
be very cautious of what tasks you do
assign a new hire and make sure that
you're giving them something that is
both meaningful something that will help
them learn the business learn what it is
that you're all about what your product
is and spend a little time with them
don't just hire them and ignore them for
a month you want to build that
relationship you want to build include
them within your business culture and
the other thing is make sure
you hand off make sure you give them the
work and give them time to understand it
don't fret over it and don't pull it
back don't say I can do it better I can
do it faster Let It Go one of the things
Rob has taught me over the years is you
have to let things go sometimes and this
is one of the greatest examples of
wanting to do that is you bring someone
on you give them a task now I will say
this do not give them a mission critical
task as their first
task you are just setting them up to
fail or if they are a genius great maybe
but never never give a new hire
something that is Mission critical very
highend deadline or maybe even your most
uh important client something to do
within a very short deadline if it's
over months sure but please be very
conscious of what tasks you do give your
new employees or your new hire
and make sure you do spend the time with
them to make sure that they understand
what they're doing I think that's very
critical is that you want realize that
one of the things you need to do is you
need to when you're bringing somebody
new in whether they're contractor
whatever they are you need to make sure
they succeed your goal should be that
they s succeed so the early task should
be you know like Michael said not
critical not the kind of stuff that's
like you know that the that you're
expecting so even if they are an expert
don't bring them in and just be like
cool you're going to figure all this
stuff out because that's not going to
help and you're going to have some that
you think as an expert and you're
suddenly going to think they're a
because they can't get it done but it's
not it's because you didn't give them
the opportunity to succeed which is the
other part of what Michael's leaning
towards it's like patience you have got
to be patient and realize they're not
going to pick it up immediately they're
not going to do it as fast as you
especially the first time they do it and
they're going to make mistakes because
there's going to be things that they
don't realize and honestly look back at
it as if they make mistakes it's
probably because you made a mistake and
did not communicate the details that you
needed to beforehand and that is
something that one of the best and worst
things I did is the first actual
employee I had was a son was one of my
sons and so he was more than happy to
say you didn't do this you didn't do
this you didn't and he was right but it
helped me as I was going through this
stuff to be like oh yeah I handed this
off but I didn't do this and I didn't
add this part and I didn't provide this
piece and it part of it was because of
where he was and what I was used to but
part of it was because I was not used to
pulling that crap out of my head and
sharing with somebody it's one of those
things you're like well everybody knows
it well you know what apparently not
everybody because this person does not
and you need to not you know it's not a
personality flaw of theirs or that
they're an idiot or something like that
it's they don't know it's like we all
have things we don't know and you know
how you fix that is you tell them you
let them know and then they're going to
be more successful the next time around
before you do the challenge
darn add to that when you do have new
hires depending upon your work culture
if you're scrum agile whatever or if
you're just a small team make sure you
give time especially the first week or
two or within the first month spend time
in a safe space make sure that you can
sit down with the employee and make sure
that is a calm open conversation that
like Rob said his son was able to tell
him what he was doing wrong set up onein
ones or open meetings where people can
bounce ideas of where are things going
good where are things going bad
essentially a formal or an informal
retrospective essentially in a
one-on-one or maybe in a group setting
but give them a chance to give you
feedback don't just assume they're not
doing their job maybe they need
something from you but are afraid to
ask that is I always hate that the
phrase safe space in a sense because
it's like it's loaded but it's true it's
very much you have to I will say it I
guess in more of the like the Gen X
style of like people need to be they
can't be afraid to fail you've got to
allow the opportunity for failure
because otherwise they're always going
to be too scared to actually take any
risks and then you end up with not what
you want so really good point
the challenge this week is going to be
whether you need to hire somebody or not
whether you need to bring somebody on or
not is look at what you do over the next
few days look at what you do what is
your task list
effectively and what would it mean for
you to be able to what would be a piece
that you could carve off and have
somebody else
do and do so in a way preferably if it's
something where it's like this is not
something that is you where you bring
the most value something that is
redundant or a little beneath you if you
want to call call it that or however you
want to look at it but basically
something that this is not necessarily
the best use of your time and then maybe
it would be useful to find somebody that
didn't cost as much to you to your
company or anything else and have them
do it it's much lice we we always talk
about the 4-Hour Work week and doing
like you know you can offshore stuff and
Outsource stuff and all that kind of
stuff it's that same kind of thing it's
really is is in that Outsourcing
mentality pick something that you would
be able to that you should essentially
you know push off or that you could and
then just like spend a little time
thinking about like what would it look
like to hand that off to somebody else
maybe you wrun a little note card it's
like well I got to tell them this this
and this or I got to teach them that
because I think doing that in itself
going through that exercise will help
you if you have to do it it may also
highlight something that you need to get
rid of and get off your plate and it may
even just help you better understand
what it is that you do because now
you're it's always more educational for
you have to teach this to somebody else
than it is for you to just like know it
in your head just like I'm going to
teach you right now actually I'm not you
should already know this to send us an
email shoot an email to info
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what what do you like what don't you
like what are some topics that you would
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better businesses what are some things
that we can do to make our businesses
bigger better stronger if you've got
some suggestions or some questions
related to that we would love to hear it
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wherever feel free to like just search
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listening to this 20 years from now you
may find us in the new like whatever the
social site is that being said we're
going to wrap this one up because
probably gone a little longer we need to
but hey you got it for free so hopefully
and hopefully you got more out of this
than just free Hing you got a little bit
of value out of this one go out there
and have yourself a great day a great
week and we will talk to you next
time bonus material
so you mentioned 4our work week and I
forget the r are he was talking about
one chapter in the book he was talking
about the guy that worked for the
magazine where he read some book about
virtualization and he started hiring
virtual assistants so one of the
interesting things about what the topic
we just talked about if you don't have
employees and are looking to hire
employees consider do some little
Googling around look at what a virtual
assistant could possibly bring you as a
trial run before bringing on an employee
sometimes just getting an assistant to
help peel things off what you do every
day is a very good way to help one
figure out if you are a person that is
willing to let go and two if you can
work with the virtual assistant then you
potentially are in a good very good
place to hire someone on and be able to
hand off Tas to someone else if the
reason I say this is working with a
virtual assistant can be challenging up
front especially if you do overseas you
may have to go through one or two but
this is very good practice and possibly
a very cheap way to figure out if you
are in a place where you can hire
someone and actually get benefits from
the new
employee that is yeah that's one of
those that's the nice thing about the
4our work week one of the things that he
brought up is like you should test this
out you should like do it in bite-sized
chunks basically like do it you know go
decide you're going to spend 50 bucks or
100 bucks or a thousand bucks whatever
it is um and and keep it self-contained
so that you can learn how to do that
because it is something that I think
everybody thinks it's like oh I can do
this this a piece of cake until you have
to do it and it's like and every time
like I've talked a lot lot of people a
lot of different ways in different
situations it's like it's amazing how
often people are like I can do this over
here but I can't do it over there you
know it's like it's very different to do
these things where it is
um it's something that like you know
very well and you know like inside and
out the thing that you think would be
the one that's like this is something I
can pass off to somebody else turns out
to be the hardest one you it turns out
to be that's the one that like the thing
that you really don't like like and
maybe it is because you're spending all
the time in your head going I don't like
this I don't like this I don't like this
but then you can tell them do this do
this do this um yeah it's like practice
makes I don't know if it makes perfect
but practice makes you better at least
and so take a look at something like
that do like there's like you may go and
like and it's actually a benefit anyways
we've talked about this before it's a
benefit to go to like upwork or Fiverr
or one of those places not as a provider
but as a uh a seller or a buyer
basically or whatever it is as a
customer and go like have people you
know bid $5 to do or whatever you know
to do whatever your project is or to do
your work or go out and at upwork or or
somebody like that and go hire somebody
in because it's seeing it from the other
side I think gives you much more
information about how to T really to
like win that process if we call it that
and then it also allows you to like it
forces you even to go through the
process of like how do I
how do I really do this how do I take
this from my head and put it down
essentially on paper so that it can now
which is what we do when we automate too
it's like how do I take those steps and
limit you know uh walk through those and
say Here's a you know why out these are
the steps and then have something do
those steps um we can do it I know we
can because we've done it in all these
other places it's just a little harder
to do it but it's worth it to do it in
real
life I think that's enough on this one
we we have gone a little bit we've had
some bonus material on the front and the
back end so hey you guys have been
bonused out uh feel free to shoot us an
email let us know if you've got any
feedback leave comments you know leave
us a review all that kind of good stuff
we do read them eventually uh we get to
them hopefully we get them right away
but sometimes you know mail doesn't
notify us properly that stuff has been
you know that we've been communicated
with so apologies technology is not
always awesome go out there though and
have yourself a great day maybe get away
from your technology for a little bit
now that you have had your your daily uh
you know YouTube session with us good
there and have a good one and we will
talk to you next time
[Music]