Detailed Notes
AI is everywhere — but that doesn’t mean it’s delivering value.
In this episode of Building Better Developers, we break down how technical leaders can approach measuring AI marketing ROI without falling into hype-driven decisions. Instead of chasing tools, we focus on defining outcomes, setting baselines, and using structured discovery and launch processes to protect time and budget.
We also explore why compliance, SEO shifts, and platform changes matter when adopting AI — and how checklists help teams move faster without creating risk. For founders and tech leads, we dive into delegation and scaling lessons that directly impact ROI.
If you’re a developer, engineering manager, or founder trying to make smarter AI decisions, this conversation will help you cut through the noise and focus on what actually works.
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Key Takeaways • Why outcomes matter more than tools • How to define AI success before implementation • Using checklists to reduce risk • Navigating compliance and platform changes • Delegation as a growth multiplier
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About the Guest — Meeky Hwang
Meeky Hwang is the CEO and Co-Founder of Ndevr, a digital solutions development agency. With over 20 years of experience, she has helped organizations such as Johnson & Johnson, Pfizer, Forbes, PMC, and Bloomberg build resilient, scalable digital platforms.
Meeky specializes in engineering long-term solutions that align technology with business strategy, streamline workflows, and support sustainable growth. As a woman leading in a male-dominated industry, she brings a grounded and honest perspective on technical leadership, entrepreneurship, and building strong teams while scaling a business.
Follow Meeky on • https://www.linkedin.com/in/meekyhwang/ • https://www.ndevr.io/
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Follow-us
• [email protected] • https://develpreneur.com/ • https://www.youtube.com/@develpreneur • https://facebook.com/Develpreneur • https://x.com/develpreneur • https://www.linkedin.com/company/develpreneur/
Transcript Text
Well, hello and welcome back. We are continuing our season where we are getting unstuck. We're moving forward. We're getting the forward momentum that everybody wants to have at the beginning of the year. We are the developer podcast. We are also known as building better developers. I am Rob Broadhead, known only as Robad as far as I know. And I am one of the founders of developer, also the founder of RB Consulting, where we help you leverage technology, AI, and build yourself a roadmap for success for your business. uh we help you make sure that you're doing the processes and the procedures and the design first instead of just jumping into some tools. Good thing and bad thing. Good thing is is that uh I've had like a really good start of the year. It's one of these times where it's like sometimes, you know, the start of the year just you make a bunch of commitments and the next thing you know January 2nd occurs and it's like it's a train wreck. This year's actually done pretty good. I've had a pretty good settle into the year. Uh things are moving smoothly. bad thing is I'm sitting here doing the podcast by myself again. It is yes, Michael and I have all kinds of back and forth, but it is nice having that second person there to sort of help you out when you stumble and fall. And yes, I am poking him because he's going to be listening to this and he's going to say, "Oh, darn." So, he knows he's missed. It's not because I'm picking on him as much. We're going to continue this time our discussion with Miki Wong. And uh really I had a great time. the f it's it's one of these that you talk to you look at the you know you get somebody on as a guest and you see what they do and where they're coming from and you don't get the whole story and so we have these conversations and this is where we do and uh it's really somebody that's very much a uh you know as they as they would say one of minte one of these people that have gone through the same kinds of things I've done the same trials and and some of the same proced trials and tribulations uh even although in a very different uh line of work and things like that, but has a track record that is very uh familiar to me. So, it's been a fun conversation and I look forward to the next part of this. So, pencils up, take some notes because we do have some uh some really interesting things if you are going to get into that like start your own business mode and what that looks like. She shares some really good uh insights and some of her stories uh as well. So, here we go back with part two with Miki. So are your are your uh services more uh graphic design and things of that nature or do you have a lot more technical sort of back end >> early development also? Yeah, we're we're very different from traditional u full service marketing agencies. We don't do any creative work. We only focus on technology. So with the implementation, migration, development and whatnot. So we only focus on the backend portion and we partner with a lot of other design agencies or even um the internal design team or UX team to work together and also we work with their internal tech tech development team too but a lot of times you are the development team for some companies where we are a subset of their development team so we only focus on technology portion. >> Oh excellent. So you so is that how you because you said you sort of drifted into to media before before you started the company is you you got out there and were looking at the problems to solve. So how do you uh from a technology point of view is how do you see that as a uh what like some of the the changing problems that you see and actually I guess now I guess we'll have to go there a little bit is like how has it changed over the 10 years that you've been doing this? How have you seen a change in that uh that digital marketing landscape? I think it's it's changing a lot because they well with lately I mean I almost don't want to even bring up but then I have to bring up is like AI is kind of into the picture. So with that a lot of people try to adapt it but I feel like at this point they it's still a hype for them cuz they want it but they don't know what to do with it >> like especially in the because we do we work with marketing department a lot u for these companies because we're doing more like a CMS and and they're publishing so it's usually marketing related um departments that we work with so they do a lot of campaigns or like you know user engagements and like how to get more ROI or like whatever those kind of things on their websites, but now that there's AI in the picture, they feel like they're obligated to use it, but they don't know what to do with it. And I was just like I was just recently reading about like I don't know the actual percentage is correct, but like they are some are pretty much waiting to see what to do or some are just kind of they're ready to do it, but they don't know what to do. like there's like personalization and all these things like they hear all these words so they feel like they are obligated to adopt it but is it really helping is it really doing like is it really increasing ROI or is your customers or audience for your website really getting frustrated with it like they don't know that yet because like they're not that much data into it and also they don't necessarily know how to use it properly. So there's a little bit of a weird um gap where like I feel like it's weird phase right now that like they feel like they need to use it but they're not. But like but there has been a lot of little things like that just like if there's any changes in like Google changes on like different um way they do their ads or something. There's always that along the way. But this one is a little I think it's more current. It felt like it's longer. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think I guess maybe it's just because we're in the middle of it. But yeah, very much that it seems like everybody's in this like I hear all these great things and this is what it should do for me, but I don't know how to get there. I don't know what that is and I don't know anybody that can, you know, that's that's doing that necessarily. So there's just Yeah, it's a lot of Yeah. very much the hype thing. It's like it's coming. It's going to be great. It's you should be doing it right now. And every like okay well what does that mean? How would I do that? What does that look like? >> How is it going to help me? Like they don't necessarily know exactly that. And also like there's a lot of investment going on to this AI. So people think like oh this might be the good thing but >> is it good for you but they can't really tell because they don't know what they're looking for. >> Yeah. That's probably the worst possible situation to be in is when people are ready to put a lot of money into something but they really don't know what they're it's like you got a lot of money but you don't know where you're going to spend it. So now it's like that's that's not a good com recipe for the best decisions to be made. It's just like >> you don't want to hold it in your pocket too long. It's like no maybe you should and actually think about what you're doing before you go just spend a wad on AI and say okay we've put a lot of invested a lot in AI well okay well what will you what were you expecting to get out of it you know it's like it gets back to the the nuts the the brass b brass tax of it of like okay you invested this well what was your return on investment and how are you going to measure that >> yeah and then also I think I heard this like recently on like yesterday's meeting or something some people like they don't feel like they want to implement it because by the time they roll it out, it's going to be outdated. >> But that's kind of like because like it gets outdated faster these days. So like there's some some like but that's also catch22 like but you still need to do something. But I was like yeah that was like interesting dilemma that I was hearing yesterday on that meeting. And I'm wondering because I I heard some of this years ago and I'm wondering if you guys ran into it as well because you're in the the uh WordPress space in that. I said you'd run into people it's like well they they go and and get a theme and then it would be you know last year's theme and now you it's just like uh you know any design kind of thing. You sort of have these like seasons and these like the hot thing for the year and the the new hot technology. Um are you seeing a lot of that? And did you see a lot of that where people are sort of like hesitating a little or almost worse is that you get to the end of a project and people are like, "Oh, there's this new thing out and there's this great new, you know, there's a new word press release and it does A, B, and C and so now we have to upgrade everything to take advantage of the latest." Or were you able to sort of lock it in and say, "Okay, this is what we're doing for the project." And then come back at a, you know, version two of it. >> It's actually easier to lock in because WordPress is one thing they're good at is that they're very good at backwards compatibility. you don't have to like even if you upgrade to the next version it doesn't break the things that you already built. So it's like slightly different from different technology because whereas like if there's a new version come out you have to do the full migration there are other CMS that that has to be done that way but WordPress wasn't isn't the case so like it's a little little easier to go to the next version and get adapt the new thing that they're rolling out without breaking what you already built. So it's been a little more smoother transition. So like it's easier to do version two or whatever. And also like technology too. It's like it's a slightly different tech technology. So you can still adapt it. It's like it's how much you want to spend time on it is usually the question. Time and money on it is usually the question. But everything can be done. It's just like it's always like the thing that we always talk about. It's how important is it for you to adopt this? Like do you know how beneficial it would be for you in order to adopt it? because it's it's at the end of the day it's just a matter of time and and money how much you're willing to spend for that feature that you want to adopt in. So um it was a little more smoother transition into adopting the latest and greatest for for that end. >> Yeah, that's always that uh that's a common question and and the kind of thing was like well can you do this? It's like yes we can but do you really want us to because this is how long it's going to take or the risk or the cost involved and sometimes the thing is like we really got to have that and then when you put a price tag and a time frame to it they go we really don't need that you know like it changes can change the answer very very quickly. >> Yeah. But it actually gives you like a good perspective like do you really need it? Then you'll know. So >> that's true. If they if you keep like adding to the price and the cost and they're just like yes we need it. We need it. You're like okay definitely they need it. you know, they you can tell then when this is critical to their their business moving forward. Uh you also mentioned um you like Google and some of those kinds of things. So, do you just curious are you guys uh are you guys sort of abstracted from the latest update and like the you know how Google's changing their their SEO rulings and things like that or is that definitely one of the things that is is that you're constantly working with that to figure out like making sure that you are aligning with the latest SEO search engine changes across Google and all the other people that matter. Yeah, we we have to be aligned with that because that's we're as us as like the uh consulting we're giving them directions of what needs to be done for the people who might not be technical or not aware of this. We need to let them know that these are these are the things that you need to be aware of like if there's any new um rules that you need to be abide by like we need to let them know because like if you have an audience in California there are certain things that you have to do on your website you have to put different fluky consent or whatever GDPR and all those rules we have to let them know that you have to have it. Um so that's yeah so we need to be always be aware of what's changing on that on that end. What do you do to keep your yourselves and your your staff u you know current on that on the latest things and the latest rules that you have to work with particularly u and I guess it's sort of a addition to that question is do you have international clients or do you have California is always its own little beast but do you have you know other like EU and their regulations and other things that you have to to keep up with >> not necessarily from the the companies that are only there it's more like global companies so they have offices in different countries So that's when we have to let them know about like all these other rules and um it's more it's due diligence for us like we kind of for for owners we do but like yeah it's actually a good call that we probably need to have some mechanism for our country to be aware of it because they when they delve into different projects they naturally know because they have to do that but yeah that's a good call like um one thing I should probably might have we might have overlooked should be our place to be always aware of it cuz I know like most of the the the people that we work with that they're naturally curious or they do they're pretty up to date with current affairs and what needs to be done for their job. So like it was I guess it was more of a we've been lucky on that end. >> Well, it's I mean it's a it's a perfectly I think it's a perfectly logical answer to say well we just do our due diligence for any given project and so we're going to go like you said I think you some of it you get because you've just done this project before. So, for example, if you've, you know, you built a website that had to follow all of the California rules last week, then all right, you're you're up to speed with it. Now, if you jump suddenly jump to, I don't know, India and you've got to deal with their stuff, then you're like, okay, I'm going to learn, but now the next place I do, you know, the next site I do that's going to be in India, then we already know that. So, uh, you know, sometimes that's you can't keep ahead enough because you don't know what's ahead of you. So it's easier to just sort of like take it as you go and just make sure that you you slow and steady as you go into it and are able to to do that research. >> Yeah. And also like since with all the experience that when you have to someone comes in and like we have to open like a website in this region that we'll do a couple things that like as a a checklist cuz like you know just make sure that is there anything that we need to do. Is there anything on the compliance side or anything that we should be aware of? Those kind of things we do as a checklist. So even if we didn't know and we wouldn't we weren't aware that with that research we'll probably have to figure out what needs to be done before they actually put their site out on that region. >> And since you're doing since you live in this space uh it's it's you know sort of a very consistent space as far as what you're delivering for your customers. Do you have like a a testing suites and validation automation that you use so that when you you spin up a you know you spin up a site and a solution for somebody and here here's what we've got. Do you have something you can do to sort of uh to test that and to say yes, we've we're going through and basically we can check off all those things on our checklist that we do have, you know, we're responsive and we have uh you know, alternate methods of of navigation and all the different things that are out there that are I guess the the list of things that a good website does. >> Yeah, we have our own checklist. It's like it's not fully automated because like with every time we go to different client, it's very custom to them. But there's like a a general thing that we have as a checklist even like onboarding or before um before we even uh engage with the clients that we have all this list of questions that we need to be aware to start discovery and all that stuff. So we do have our internal checklist to go through it and then during also usually there's like the initial checklist but with once you get the actual engagement there's like a whole discovery phase to figure out what needs to be done and then also like during like the whatever the development cycle and then the QA cycle and all that stuff and UAT cycle and after that actual launch there's like a launch checklist that we need to have for like basic things for the web publishing and also like depending on which CMS or which technology we're pushing it out like what needs to be done on the hosting side what needs to be done on the actual like you know data side and all that stuff and like if you have more things like third party integration what needs to be done there on the CDN side and all these things that we have a checklist for and then depending on the client there should be their custom list that they need to uh have before we actually put everything up and if after they launch then we also have like a postlaunch items that we want to go through and like you So we do have like a phase and and stages of um cycle that we have to go through with a different list of things that we need to check off on >> since we have like as I said before we have a lot of developers in our in our audience and that's one of the things that I I think a lot of people a lot of developers struggle with is when they shift from being a developer that's that's part of a company organization and now they're they're shifting into more like a uh whether they're you know consulting or they've got some sort service or or an agency that they work with is actually the the discovery phase is is getting that because a lot of times it's sort of given to you. It's been spoonfed you instead of having to go through that. So, uh from that and and uh especially interested because if you got you had an experienced co-founder, how is the how is that discovery phase uh evolved? How have you evolved that over the years as you've as you've worked with your clients? I'm assuming you have. I'm assuming it wasn't perfect from the start, but maybe I'm over over suing. >> Yeah, I mean I did have So before we started the company, we were I was pretty much doing the similar thing. So I had my own clients like I was had my client base and I was taking over probably like 90 to 95% of WordPress clients were going through me anyway. So with that, I was learning through it initially from like you know my boss and whoever was more senior like I'll be in the meeting together to learn about it. But as you put a lot of projects together cuz I already have a lot of um like a bigger sites like I think times or all these other companies with like a different structure and different team had u I implemented different uh websites there. So from through that experience there are common things that I need to know before starting a project. So those are the list that were gathering through that and well it smoothly transitioned into when we started it because we're pretty much doing the similar thing. It's just a with a different company name. >> So, another one that just because I've talked to a few founders lately and and that as you've grown, is there what is the thing that was the hardest for you to to give up as you've grown as a company has grown? Like something that maybe you guys did early on that you've had to sort of like, you know, set aside because it was or either delegate or uh train somebody to do so that you can you can scale the company. I think it was also always that because um I remember even when I was going to the management role and I was fost was encouraging the people who were bringing up to into the management role I always have to tell them like you know you have to delegate because I know you as a developer I think it's naturally that you want to develop but you have to let go of certain things that you're doing especially you can't you'll kill yourself you're going to do all these tickets to you and also try to manage people because like it's like there's No, there's no way you can do it. I mean, if you want if you want your sanity to and then you really love this development work, just assign one or two tickets and fade out, but don't put the same amount of tickets to your bucket when you have to manage the people as well. So that I always tell people that, but I was not really good at it either. especially like with the company and then also I think um when you start a company because I'm technical there are a lot of times that I can just do it >> but it's also twofold too cuz I need to make sure that the person who's taking over has to learn so like I need to be a little more patient about that so like letting go of those uh was it's always it's a little bit of challenging like even if like roll switch a little bit I can still technically do the roll sometimes faster But like it's it's the things that I remind other people I have to remind myself. It's like be patient, let them do it because they need to learn so that they can you can move on to the next role. So yeah, I think that's a kind of constant thing that I still um remind myself like let go, move on to the next role and trust. >> I agree. >> Yeah, >> I think that's one of those hard ones where you you know it but doing it is different than knowing it. It's easy to tell somebody else it's like, "Yeah, go do this." And then doing it yourself is is is the more challenging piece of it. >> Now, you have you been able to stay technical or have you been able I mean, you can still do it, you said, but is that you've been able to stay technical on a regular basis? Have you really grown to the point where you've you've had to leave that behind? >> Yeah, I I still um stay technical for some clients. Um so like different depending on different clients. So, but that's also one of those things that we like the co-founder and I talked about cuz he's more he wants to do more hands-on too. Um I I think I felt like I let go a little better than they did, but um I had to kind of constantly remind him I was like I think I mean we've been very lean because we're both technical so we can do a lot while you have to have a turnover like that. But I think that was another reason that we were growing a little slower than um than we initially thought because you have that option to lean on yourself. So like if we weren't technical, we probably try to hire and scale that way. Whereas we instead of hiring, we sometimes do it ourselves and we stay lean. Um but like that means that we didn't hire people to scale to the next level enough. So like I think it's always like a little bit of catching up on that cuz like I mean it worked out in some years and worked out and not not in some years cuz when we're so focused on on client hands- work, other things internal stuff falls behind. And I think this is probably like you know everyone's dilemma especially with like a small companies because when yeah you have client work comes first and then like other internal thing that you need to do for the next quarter or whatnot and that gets affected. So it's always like a little bit and catching up and learning to balance it was actually one of the the one of the biggest learning thing that that we have to go through. It's like how did you super busy you still have to put some time for your internal things for the next quarter of planning or like whatever the next um thing internally to make sure that future is um not affected. So it was like a constant reminder and that was like a harder thing to get adjusted because you have to be very forced to not not focus too much on one thing only. So is that how you sort of solve that problem? You just you start putting it on the calendar and essentially said, "Okay, we've got to schedule this, so we it's got to get done." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you kind of have to force it like brute force it like we got to get done. It doesn't matter. So >> yeah, sometimes that is the best way to get it is just like just say, "Okay, we're going to plan for it and you know it's got to get done." And you get the end of the week and go, "Oh, that's on my to-do list. So we got to get it got to get it knocked out instead of kicking it forward to the next week or or further down the road." >> Yeah. We forced it on the calendar. It's like it's set. So, we have to spend this time on the task. >> It's on the calendar. It is you can't touch the calendar. I totally get that. >> Now, thank you so much for for hanging out with us and and sharing this. And for people that are out there and and wanting to learn more about you guys, yourself and and you guys, is what are some of the best ways for them to reach out for you and reach out and contact you? >> Probably LinkedIn because well, we're my co-founder and I are both very active on LinkedIn. the only actually only channel that we're active on. I suck at social channels. Like I wasn't really too um good at it. So LinkedIn um it's like it's very similar. I I'll um send you the link, but it's very easy because my name is unique enough. It's my full name, Mickey Wong. Um and um our website endeavor.io. Um then you can find that find us from there contact page and we'll we'll get to it. >> Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. love having you here and uh sharing and it's uh it's always fun to have somebody that's had a an entrepreneurial journey that either some of our you know I think some of our people are either in the midst of or maybe considering or looking forward to and to hear some of the uh the real world stories is always a you know is a bonus and and it al it helps those who are struggling to it through it to know that yep that's I'm not the only person struggling through it and for those looking ahead it's like oh okay I got to make sure I'm you know for example maybe I should find myself a good mastermind group or you know somebody some meetup group or something that is going to be able to, you know, give me that that community and and that support. >> Yeah. Yeah. That'll be that's actually a really good good way to get to know and then like and see um and learn from others. >> Well, I will thank you for your time and everybody else uh thank you for hanging out with us and we will be back next time uh probably with yet another interview depending on how we slice these up. Uh, and Michael will be back as well most likely, so you won't have to listen to just me. But as always, go out there and have yourself a great day, a great week, and we will talk to you next time. So our bonus material now that we are out of the audio side of it and that is um what is I guess I'll start with it like a good what is one thing if you could go back and tell yourself as you were diving into this 10 years ago what what is one piece of advice you would give your your younger you? I think I think I already said it um so I don't know if you want to repeat it like join the masro fast like it's like join a group that where you can learn from others and grow together because it gives like a great accountability as you said and then you learn so much and then you get so motivated by the people around you. Um and also you you share your experience like some of the pain points and then some of the things that you went through a lot of times they went through it too. So, it's a really great way to even like um for your sanity check too cuz like you're not alone in this. So like knowing that and other there are other people are doing it and how much effort they're putting into their business also makes you like you know you want to do better because like you know it's it's always a very misconception that people always see the tip of the ice but they don't really know what's underneath it how much effort that went into it. um when you see the successful person because I haven't met any single successful person that didn't put effort into it and that's like it's a known thing but it's it's very easy to forget. So like if you see other people really putting everything they got or sometimes like more to get to where they want to go, you get so inspired by that. So I think it's a great way to get to know other people and also like you learn about different businesses that's too because you didn't even think of like oh that kind of thing exists. So like oh that's really great. So you learn a lot from just being being around like that. >> Yeah. I'm glad like people will often in an interview they'll say like here's something you know here's a great thing to point a great point that I would have you know I would suggest to people starting out or you know advice I give to my younger self. And so it's very it's it's nice that you doubled down on that say yes that's that is exactly the advice I would give and then I love that you gave us some more u a little you know went a little deeper on that. Now when you went into these groups um sort of as we go a little explore that a little bit is was that you and your uh co-founder or was this something that sort of you were doing and was more for your own personal sanity and that as opposed to I guess a corporate kind of thing. >> It was more personal thing and then he joined a different group so we also want to like evaluate different groups. So yeah, we always join a different group um to see which one's good. Um and then there were times that I joined the group that he was in for short period of time just to kind of see. But um I think he and I look at different things on when you're in different masterminds. So it worked out because like what um what I like is more like this the thing that I discussed and he actually um like more sharing and on also more focused on the similar industry type of thing whereas I like different type of businesses or different things just to kind of see what's going on and what's exploring different um experiences I can secondhandly get. Now that also allow you then to and I sort of lean into that is that allow you to sort of talk about your relationship with your your co-founder and like how should this work and the because sometimes that's the dynamics are are that is one of the more challenging pieces is the dynamics of not being a founder but being like a co-founder or a you know or a board or something like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. So like I asked about those kind of things before too. Um but so yeah so different things that you learn from there. >> Well, excellent. So, we are we're starting to run out of time. So, I guess I will let you get on with your day. I want to pre say again just thank you so much for for spending some time with us. I know we had a couple of of change schedules along the way and thank you for us uh bouncing all of that stuff in place and getting here finally and and making it worthwhile. Um and u as I said, we will get the links to you and we'll get everything in contact as this comes closer and feel free to share it wherever you want to. uh we'll get you links for the the YouTube stuff as well as the um the pod the podcast places or the main podcast links and uh between now and then if there's anything else we can do just let me know. Uh happy to help you guys out in any way that we can and have yourself a good uh rest of the day, good week and we'll we'll catch you somewhere further down the road. >> Yeah. Um yeah, we're we started our our podcast as well. So I'll I can send you information if you want to be because I'm actually well so we have two different one. One's actually boozy browsing, which is a we're doing a happy hour and auditing the site while while we're drinking. >> Fun. Boozy browsing. >> Yeah. >> Okay. We'll have to look for everybody look for the boozy browsing podcast. >> Yeah. And then the other one is actually I'm interviewing all the um different company business owners or agency owners just like a five 15 to 20 quick interviews set of five questions just to learn about their business and what they're about. Um just it's like I was telling uh one of the guests who asked me why I'm doing this. is like it's my curiosity to learn about other business as well as I want to get to know and then also hopefully that other people want to learn about your business can also get exposed to it. So if you're up for it I can send you the the link and information. >> Yes, definitely. And what's the name of that one? >> That was um um Voices of Leadership. >> Okay. >> So if you're looking for fun boozy browsing if you want something more concrete voices of leadership. So awesome. there's some there's some actual bonus uh material there and we'll yeah definitely send us the links love to uh listen to them ourselves and also share those out with the uh the audience and see whatever we can do to help you to build that up. So >> thanks so thanks for hanging out. This has been great. Uh look forward to hearing more from you. I'll I'll hear you. If nothing else, we'll go listen to the podcast and catch some of that kind of stuff and uh just uh keep going at it and we'll talk to you again soon. >> Thanks S. Thanks for having me. >> All right, have a good one. Bye bye. Bye.
Transcript Segments
Well, hello and welcome back. We are
continuing our season where we are
getting unstuck. We're moving forward.
We're getting the forward momentum that
everybody wants to have at the beginning
of the year. We are the developer
podcast. We are also known as building
better developers. I am Rob Broadhead,
known only as Robad as far as I know.
And I am one of the founders of
developer, also the founder of RB
Consulting, where we help you leverage
technology, AI, and build yourself a
roadmap for success for your business.
uh we help you make sure that you're
doing the processes and the procedures
and the design first instead of just
jumping into some tools. Good thing and
bad thing. Good thing is is that uh I've
had like a really good start of the
year. It's one of these times where it's
like sometimes, you know, the start of
the year just you make a bunch of
commitments and the next thing you know
January 2nd occurs and it's like it's a
train wreck. This year's actually done
pretty good. I've had a pretty good
settle into the year. Uh things are
moving smoothly. bad thing is I'm
sitting here doing the podcast by myself
again. It is yes, Michael and I have all
kinds of back and forth, but it is nice
having that second person there to sort
of help you out when you stumble and
fall. And yes, I am poking him because
he's going to be listening to this and
he's going to say, "Oh, darn." So, he
knows he's missed. It's not because I'm
picking on him as much. We're going to
continue this time our discussion with
Miki Wong. And uh really I had a great
time. the f it's it's one of these that
you talk to you look at the you know you
get somebody on as a guest and you see
what they do and where they're coming
from and you don't get the whole story
and so we have these conversations and
this is where we do and uh it's really
somebody that's very much a uh you know
as they as they would say one of minte
one of these people that have gone
through the same kinds of things I've
done the same trials and and some of the
same proced trials and tribulations uh
even although in a very different uh
line of work and things like that, but
has a track record that is very uh
familiar to me. So, it's been a fun
conversation and I look forward to the
next part of this. So, pencils up, take
some notes because we do have some uh
some really interesting things if you
are going to get into that like start
your own business mode and what that
looks like. She shares some really good
uh insights and some of her stories uh
as well. So, here we go back with part
two with Miki.
So are your are your uh services more
uh graphic design and things of that
nature or do you have a lot more
technical sort of back end
>> early development also? Yeah, we're
we're very different from traditional u
full service marketing agencies. We
don't do any creative work. We only
focus on technology. So with the
implementation, migration, development
and whatnot. So we only focus on the
backend portion and we partner with a
lot of other design agencies or even um
the internal design team or UX team to
work together and also we work with
their internal tech tech development
team too but a lot of times you are the
development team for some companies
where we are a subset of their
development team so we only focus on
technology portion.
>> Oh excellent. So you so is that how you
because you said you sort of drifted
into to media before before you started
the company is you you got out there and
were looking at the problems to solve.
So how do you uh from a technology point
of view is how do you see that as a uh
what like some of the the changing
problems that you see and actually I
guess now I guess we'll have to go there
a little bit is like how has it changed
over the 10 years that you've been doing
this? How have you seen a change in that
uh that digital marketing landscape? I
think it's it's changing a lot because
they well with lately I mean I almost
don't want to even bring up but then I
have to bring up is like AI is kind of
into the picture. So with that a lot of
people try to adapt it but I feel like
at this point
they it's still a hype for them cuz they
want it but they don't know what to do
with it
>> like especially in the because we do we
work with marketing department a lot u
for these companies because we're doing
more like a CMS and and they're
publishing so it's usually marketing
related um departments that we work with
so they do a lot of campaigns or like
you know user engagements
and like how to get more ROI or like
whatever those kind of things on their
websites, but now that there's AI in the
picture, they feel like they're
obligated to use it, but they don't know
what to do with it. And I was just like
I was just recently reading about like I
don't know the actual percentage is
correct, but like they are some are
pretty much waiting to see what to do or
some are just kind of they're ready to
do it, but they don't know what to do.
like there's like personalization and
all these things like they hear all
these words so they feel like they are
obligated to adopt it but is it really
helping is it really doing like is it
really increasing ROI or is your
customers or audience for your website
really getting frustrated with it like
they don't know that yet because like
they're not that much data into it and
also they don't necessarily know how to
use it properly. So there's a little bit
of a weird um
gap where like I feel like it's weird
phase right now that like they feel like
they need to use it but they're not. But
like but there has been a lot of little
things like that just like if there's
any changes in like Google changes on
like different um way they do their ads
or something. There's always that along
the way. But this one is a little I
think it's more current. It felt like
it's longer.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think I guess maybe
it's just because we're in the middle of
it. But yeah, very much that it seems
like everybody's in this like I hear all
these great things and this is what it
should do for me, but I don't know how
to get there. I don't know what that is
and I don't know anybody that can, you
know, that's that's doing that
necessarily. So there's just Yeah, it's
a lot of Yeah. very much the hype thing.
It's like it's coming. It's going to be
great. It's you should be doing it right
now. And every like okay well what does
that mean? How would I do that? What
does that look like?
>> How is it going to help me? Like they
don't necessarily know exactly that. And
also like there's a lot of investment
going on to this AI. So people think
like oh this might be the good thing but
>> is it good for you but they can't really
tell because they don't know what
they're looking for.
>> Yeah. That's probably the worst possible
situation to be in is when people are
ready to put a lot of money into
something but they really don't know
what they're it's like you got a lot of
money but you don't know where you're
going to spend it. So now it's like
that's that's not a good com recipe for
the best decisions to be made. It's just
like
>> you don't want to hold it in your pocket
too long. It's like no maybe you should
and actually think about what you're
doing before you go just spend a wad on
AI and say okay we've put a lot of
invested a lot in AI well okay well what
will you what were you expecting to get
out of it you know it's like it gets
back to the the nuts the the brass b
brass tax of it of like okay you
invested this well what was your return
on investment and how are you going to
measure that
>> yeah and then also I think I heard this
like recently on like yesterday's
meeting or something some people like
they don't feel like they want to
implement it because by the time they
roll it out, it's going to be outdated.
>> But
that's kind of like because like it gets
outdated faster these days. So like
there's some some like but that's also
catch22 like but you still need to do
something. But I was like yeah that was
like interesting dilemma that I was
hearing yesterday on that meeting. And
I'm wondering because I I heard some of
this years ago and I'm wondering if you
guys ran into it as well because you're
in the the uh WordPress space in that. I
said you'd run into people it's like
well they they go and and get a theme
and then it would be you know last
year's theme and now you it's just like
uh you know any design kind of thing.
You sort of have these like seasons and
these like the hot thing for the year
and the the new hot technology. Um are
you seeing a lot of that? And did you
see a lot of that where people are sort
of like hesitating a little or almost
worse is that you get to the end of a
project and people are like, "Oh,
there's this new thing out and there's
this great new, you know, there's a new
word press release and it does A, B, and
C and so now we have to upgrade
everything to take advantage of the
latest." Or were you able to sort of
lock it in and say, "Okay, this is what
we're doing for the project." And then
come back at a, you know, version two of
it.
>> It's actually easier to lock in because
WordPress is one thing they're good at
is that they're very good at backwards
compatibility. you don't have to like
even if you upgrade to the next version
it doesn't break the things that you
already built. So it's like slightly
different from different technology
because whereas like if there's a new
version come out you have to do the full
migration there are other CMS that that
has to be done that way but WordPress
wasn't isn't the case so like it's a
little little easier to go to the next
version and get adapt the new thing that
they're rolling out without breaking
what you already built. So it's been a
little more smoother transition. So like
it's easier to do version two or
whatever. And also like technology too.
It's like it's a slightly different tech
technology. So you can still adapt it.
It's like it's how much you want to
spend time on it is usually the
question. Time and money on it is
usually the question. But everything can
be done. It's just like it's always like
the thing that we always talk about.
It's how important is it for you to
adopt this? Like do you know how
beneficial it would be for you in order
to adopt it? because it's it's at the
end of the day it's just a matter of
time and and money how much you're
willing to spend for that feature that
you want to adopt in. So um it was a
little more smoother transition into
adopting the latest and greatest for for
that end.
>> Yeah, that's always that uh that's a
common question and and the kind of
thing was like well can you do this?
It's like yes we can but do you really
want us to because this is how long it's
going to take or the risk or the cost
involved and sometimes the thing is like
we really got to have that and then when
you put a price tag and a time frame to
it they go we really don't need that you
know like it changes can change the
answer very very quickly.
>> Yeah. But it actually gives you like a
good perspective like do you really need
it? Then you'll know. So
>> that's true. If they if you keep like
adding to the price and the cost and
they're just like yes we need it. We
need it. You're like okay definitely
they need it. you know, they you can
tell then when this is critical to their
their business moving forward. Uh you
also mentioned um you like Google and
some of those kinds of things. So, do
you just curious are you guys uh are you
guys sort of abstracted from the latest
update and like the you know how
Google's changing their their SEO
rulings and things like that or is that
definitely one of the things that is is
that you're constantly working with that
to figure out like making sure that you
are aligning with the latest SEO search
engine changes across Google and all the
other people that matter. Yeah, we we
have to be aligned with that because
that's we're as us as like the uh
consulting we're giving them directions
of what needs to be done for the people
who might not be technical or not aware
of this. We need to let them know that
these are these are the things that you
need to be aware of like if there's any
new um rules that you need to be abide
by like we need to let them know because
like if you have an audience in
California there are certain things that
you have to do on your website you have
to put different fluky consent or
whatever GDPR and all those rules we
have to let them know that you have to
have it. Um so that's yeah so we need to
be always be aware of what's changing on
that on that end. What do you do to keep
your yourselves and your your staff u
you know current on that on the latest
things and the latest rules that you
have to work with particularly u and I
guess it's sort of a addition to that
question is do you have international
clients or do you have California is
always its own little beast but do you
have you know other like EU and their
regulations and other things that you
have to to keep up with
>> not necessarily from the the companies
that are only there it's more like
global companies so they have offices in
different countries
So that's when we have to let them know
about like all these other rules and um
it's more it's due diligence for us like
we kind of for for owners we do but like
yeah it's actually a good call that we
probably need to have some mechanism for
our country to be aware of it because
they when they delve into different
projects they naturally know because
they have to do that but yeah that's a
good call like um one thing I should
probably might have we might have
overlooked should be our place to be
always aware of it cuz I know like most
of the the the people that we work with
that they're naturally curious or they
do they're pretty up to date with
current affairs and what needs to be
done for their job. So like it was I
guess it was more of a we've been lucky
on that end.
>> Well, it's I mean it's a it's a
perfectly I think it's a perfectly
logical answer to say well we just do
our due diligence for any given project
and so we're going to go like you said I
think you some of it you get because
you've just done this project before.
So, for example, if you've, you know,
you built a website that had to follow
all of the California rules last week,
then all right, you're you're up to
speed with it. Now, if you jump suddenly
jump to, I don't know, India and you've
got to deal with their stuff, then
you're like, okay, I'm going to learn,
but now the next place I do, you know,
the next site I do that's going to be in
India, then we already know that. So,
uh, you know, sometimes that's
you can't keep ahead enough because you
don't know what's ahead of you. So it's
easier to just sort of like take it as
you go and just make sure that you you
slow and steady as you go into it and
are able to to do that research.
>> Yeah. And also like since with all the
experience that when you have to someone
comes in and like we have to open like a
website in this region that we'll do a
couple things that like as a a checklist
cuz like you know just make sure that is
there anything that we need to do. Is
there anything on the compliance side or
anything that we should be aware of?
Those kind of things we do as a
checklist. So even if we didn't know and
we wouldn't we weren't aware that with
that research we'll probably have to
figure out what needs to be done before
they actually put their site out on that
region.
>> And since you're doing since you live in
this space uh it's it's you know sort of
a very consistent space as far as what
you're delivering for your customers. Do
you have like a a testing suites and
validation automation that you use so
that when you you spin up a you know you
spin up a site and a solution for
somebody and here here's what we've got.
Do you have something you can do to sort
of uh to test that and to say yes, we've
we're going through and basically we can
check off all those things on our
checklist that we do have, you know,
we're responsive and we have uh you
know, alternate methods of of navigation
and all the different things that are
out there that are I guess the the list
of things that a good website does.
>> Yeah, we have our own checklist. It's
like it's not fully automated because
like with every time we go to different
client, it's very custom to them. But
there's like a a general thing that we
have as a checklist even like onboarding
or before um before we even uh engage
with the clients that we have all this
list of questions that we need to be
aware to start discovery and all that
stuff. So we do have our internal
checklist to go through it and then
during also usually there's like the
initial checklist but with once you get
the actual engagement there's like a
whole discovery phase to figure out what
needs to be done and then also like
during like the whatever the development
cycle and then the QA cycle and all that
stuff and UAT cycle and after that
actual launch there's like a launch
checklist that we need to have for like
basic things for the web publishing and
also like depending on which CMS or
which technology we're pushing it out
like what needs to be done on the
hosting side what needs to be done on
the actual like you know data side and
all that stuff and like if you have more
things like third party integration what
needs to be done there on the CDN side
and all these things that we have a
checklist for and then depending on the
client there should be their custom list
that they need to uh have before we
actually put everything up and if after
they launch then we also have like a
postlaunch items that we want to go
through and like you So we do have like
a phase and and stages of um cycle that
we have to go through with a different
list of things that we need to check off
on
>> since we have like as I said before we
have a lot of developers in our in our
audience and that's one of the things
that I I think a lot of people a lot of
developers struggle with is when they
shift from being a developer that's
that's part of a company organization
and now they're they're shifting into
more like a uh whether they're you know
consulting or they've got some sort
service or or an agency that they work
with is actually the the discovery phase
is is getting that because a lot of
times it's sort of given to you. It's
been spoonfed you instead of having to
go through that. So, uh from that and
and uh especially interested because if
you got you had an experienced
co-founder, how is the how is that
discovery phase uh evolved? How have you
evolved that over the years as you've as
you've worked with your clients? I'm
assuming you have. I'm assuming it
wasn't perfect from the start, but maybe
I'm over over suing.
>> Yeah, I mean I did have So before we
started the company, we were I was
pretty much doing the similar thing. So
I had my own clients like I was had my
client base and I was taking over
probably like 90 to 95% of WordPress
clients were going through me anyway. So
with that, I was learning through it
initially from like you know my boss and
whoever was more senior like I'll be in
the meeting together to learn about it.
But as you put a lot of projects
together cuz I already have a lot of um
like a bigger sites like I think times
or all these other companies with like a
different structure and different team
had u I implemented different uh
websites there. So from through that
experience there are common things that
I need to know before starting a
project. So those are the list that were
gathering through that and well it
smoothly transitioned into when we
started it because we're pretty much
doing the similar thing. It's just a
with a different company name.
>> So, another one that just because I've
talked to a few founders lately and and
that as you've grown, is there
what is the thing that was the hardest
for you to to give up as you've grown as
a company has grown? Like something that
maybe you guys did early on that you've
had to sort of like, you know, set aside
because it was or either delegate or uh
train somebody to do so that you can you
can scale the company. I think it was
also always that because um I remember
even when I was going to the management
role and I was fost was encouraging the
people who were bringing up to into the
management role I always have to tell
them like you know you have to delegate
because I know you as a developer I
think it's naturally that you want to
develop but you have to let go of
certain things that you're doing
especially you can't you'll kill
yourself you're going to do all these
tickets to you and also try to manage
people because like it's like there's
No, there's no way you can do it. I
mean, if you want if you want your
sanity to and then you really love this
development work, just assign one or two
tickets and fade out, but don't put the
same amount of tickets to your bucket
when you have to manage the people as
well. So that I always tell people that,
but I was not really good at it either.
especially
like with the company and then also I
think um when you start a company
because I'm technical there are a lot of
times that I can just do it
>> but it's also twofold too cuz I need to
make sure that the person who's taking
over has to learn so like I need to be a
little more patient about that so like
letting go of those uh was it's always
it's a little bit of challenging like
even if like roll switch a little bit I
can still technically do the roll
sometimes faster
But like it's it's the things that I
remind other people I have to remind
myself. It's like be patient, let them
do it because they need to learn so that
they can you can move on to the next
role. So yeah, I think that's a kind of
constant thing that I still um remind
myself like let go, move on to the next
role and trust.
>> I agree.
>> Yeah,
>> I think that's one of those hard ones
where you you know it but doing it is
different than knowing it. It's easy to
tell somebody else it's like, "Yeah, go
do this." And then doing it yourself is
is is the more challenging piece of it.
>> Now, you have you been able to stay
technical or have you been able I mean,
you can still do it, you said, but is
that you've been able to stay technical
on a regular basis? Have you really
grown to the point where you've you've
had to leave that behind?
>> Yeah, I I still um stay technical for
some clients. Um so like different
depending on different clients. So, but
that's also one of those things that we
like the co-founder and I talked about
cuz he's more he wants to do more
hands-on too. Um I I think I felt like I
let go a little better than they did,
but um I had to kind of constantly
remind him I was like I think I mean
we've been very lean because we're both
technical so we can do a lot while you
have to have a turnover like that. But I
think that was another reason that we
were growing a little slower than um
than we initially thought because
you have that option to lean on
yourself. So like if we weren't
technical, we probably try to hire and
scale that way. Whereas we instead of
hiring, we sometimes do it ourselves and
we stay lean. Um but like that means
that we didn't hire people to scale to
the next level enough. So like I think
it's always like a little bit of
catching up on that cuz like I mean it
worked out in some years and worked out
and not not in some years cuz when we're
so focused on on client hands- work,
other things internal stuff falls
behind. And I think this is probably
like you know everyone's dilemma
especially with like a small companies
because when yeah you have client work
comes first and then like other internal
thing that you need to do for the next
quarter or whatnot and that gets
affected. So it's always like a little
bit and catching up and learning to
balance it was actually one of the the
one of the biggest learning thing that
that we have to go through. It's like
how did you super busy you still have to
put some time for your internal things
for the next quarter of planning or like
whatever the next um thing internally to
make sure that future is um not
affected. So it was like a constant
reminder and that was like a harder
thing to get adjusted because you have
to be very forced to not
not focus too much on one thing only.
So is that how you sort of solve that
problem? You just you start putting it
on the calendar and essentially said,
"Okay, we've got to schedule this, so we
it's got to get done."
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you kind of
have to force it like brute force it
like we got to get done. It doesn't
matter. So
>> yeah, sometimes that is the best way to
get it is just like just say, "Okay,
we're going to plan for it and you know
it's got to get done." And you get the
end of the week and go, "Oh, that's on
my to-do list. So we got to get it got
to get it knocked out instead of kicking
it forward to the next week or or
further down the road."
>> Yeah. We forced it on the calendar. It's
like it's set. So, we have to spend this
time on the task.
>> It's on the calendar. It is you can't
touch the calendar. I totally get that.
>> Now, thank you so much for for hanging
out with us and and sharing this. And
for people that are out there and and
wanting to learn more about you guys,
yourself and and you guys, is what are
some of the best ways for them to reach
out for you and reach out and contact
you?
>> Probably LinkedIn because well, we're my
co-founder and I are both very active on
LinkedIn. the only actually only channel
that we're active on. I suck at social
channels. Like I wasn't really too um
good at it. So LinkedIn um it's like
it's very similar. I I'll um send you
the link, but it's very easy because my
name is unique enough. It's my full
name, Mickey Wong. Um and um our website
endeavor.io.
Um then you can find that find us from
there contact page and we'll we'll get
to it.
>> Awesome. Well, thank you so much for
your time. love having you here and uh
sharing and it's uh it's always fun to
have somebody that's had a an
entrepreneurial journey that either some
of our you know I think some of our
people are either in the midst of or
maybe considering or looking forward to
and to hear some of the uh the real
world stories is always a you know is a
bonus and and it al it helps those who
are struggling to it through it to know
that yep that's I'm not the only person
struggling through it and for those
looking ahead it's like oh okay I got to
make sure I'm you know for example maybe
I should find myself a good mastermind
group or you know somebody some meetup
group or something that is going to be
able to, you know, give me that that
community and and that support.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That'll be that's actually a
really good good way to get to know and
then like and see um and learn from
others.
>> Well, I will thank you for your time and
everybody else uh thank you for hanging
out with us and we will be back next
time uh probably with yet another
interview depending on how we slice
these up. Uh, and Michael will be back
as well most likely, so you won't have
to listen to just me. But as always, go
out there and have yourself a great day,
a great week, and we will talk to you
next time.
So our bonus material now that we are
out of the audio side of it and that is
um what is I guess I'll start with it
like a good what is one thing if you
could go back and tell yourself as you
were diving into this 10 years ago what
what is one piece of advice you would
give your your younger you? I think I
think I already said it um so I don't
know if you want to repeat it like join
the masro fast like it's like join a
group that where you can learn from
others and grow together because it
gives like a great accountability as you
said and then you learn so much and then
you get so motivated by the people
around you. Um and also you you share
your experience like some of the pain
points and then some of the things that
you went through a lot of times they
went through it too. So, it's a really
great way to even like um for your
sanity check too cuz like you're not
alone in this. So like knowing that and
other there are other people are doing
it and how much effort they're putting
into their business also makes you like
you know you want to do better because
like you know it's it's always a very
misconception that people always see the
tip of the ice but they don't really
know what's underneath it how much
effort that went into it. um when you
see the successful person because I
haven't met any single successful person
that didn't put effort into it and
that's like it's a known thing but it's
it's very easy to forget. So like if you
see other people really putting
everything they got or sometimes like
more to get to where they want to go,
you get so inspired by that. So I think
it's a great way to get to know other
people and also like you learn about
different businesses that's too because
you didn't even think of like oh that
kind of thing exists. So like oh that's
really great. So you learn a lot from
just being being around like that.
>> Yeah. I'm glad like people will often in
an interview they'll say like here's
something you know here's a great thing
to point a great point that I would have
you know I would suggest to people
starting out or you know advice I give
to my younger self. And so it's very
it's it's nice that you doubled down on
that say yes that's that is exactly the
advice I would give and then I love that
you gave us some more u a little you
know went a little deeper on that. Now
when you went into these groups um sort
of as we go a little explore that a
little bit is was that you and your uh
co-founder or was this something that
sort of you were doing and was more for
your own personal sanity and that as
opposed to I guess a corporate kind of
thing.
>> It was more personal thing and then he
joined a different group so we also want
to like evaluate different groups. So
yeah, we always join a different group
um to see which one's good. Um and then
there were times that I joined the group
that he was in for short period of time
just to kind of see. But um I think he
and I look at different things on when
you're in different masterminds. So it
worked out because like what um what I
like is more like this the thing that I
discussed and he actually um like more
sharing and on also more focused on the
similar industry type of thing whereas I
like different type of businesses or
different things just to kind of see
what's going on and what's exploring
different um experiences I can
secondhandly get.
Now that also allow you then to and I
sort of lean into that is that allow you
to sort of talk about your relationship
with your your co-founder and like how
should this work and the because
sometimes that's the dynamics are are
that is one of the more challenging
pieces is the dynamics of not being a
founder but being like a co-founder or a
you know or a board or something like
that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So like I asked about those
kind of things before too. Um but so
yeah so different things that you learn
from there.
>> Well, excellent. So, we are we're
starting to run out of time. So, I guess
I will let you get on with your day. I
want to pre say again just thank you so
much for for spending some time with us.
I know we had a couple of of change
schedules along the way and thank you
for us uh bouncing all of that stuff in
place and getting here finally and and
making it worthwhile. Um and u as I
said, we will get the links to you and
we'll get everything in contact as this
comes closer and feel free to share it
wherever you want to. uh we'll get you
links for the the YouTube stuff as well
as the um the pod the podcast places or
the main podcast links and uh between
now and then if there's anything else we
can do just let me know. Uh happy to
help you guys out in any way that we can
and have yourself a good uh rest of the
day, good week and we'll we'll catch you
somewhere further down the road.
>> Yeah. Um yeah, we're we started our our
podcast as well. So I'll I can send you
information if you want to be because
I'm actually well so we have two
different one. One's actually boozy
browsing, which is a we're doing a happy
hour and auditing the site while while
we're drinking.
>> Fun. Boozy browsing.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. We'll have to look for everybody
look for the boozy browsing podcast.
>> Yeah. And then the other one is actually
I'm interviewing all the um different
company business owners or agency owners
just like a five 15 to 20 quick
interviews set of five questions just to
learn about their business and what
they're about. Um just it's like I was
telling uh one of the guests who asked
me why I'm doing this. is like it's my
curiosity to learn about other business
as well as I want to get to know and
then also hopefully that other people
want to learn about your business can
also get exposed to it. So if you're up
for it I can send you the the link and
information.
>> Yes, definitely. And what's the name of
that one?
>> That was um um Voices of Leadership.
>> Okay.
>> So if you're looking for fun boozy
browsing if you want something more
concrete voices of leadership. So
awesome. there's some there's some
actual bonus uh material there and we'll
yeah definitely send us the links love
to uh listen to them ourselves and also
share those out with the uh the audience
and see whatever we can do to help you
to build that up. So
>> thanks so thanks for hanging out. This
has been great. Uh look forward to
hearing more from you. I'll I'll hear
you. If nothing else, we'll go listen to
the podcast and catch some of that kind
of stuff and uh just uh keep going at it
and we'll talk to you again soon.
>> Thanks S. Thanks for having me.
>> All right, have a good one. Bye bye.
Bye.